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[Forum] OS4 but no software to run on itANN.lu
Posted on 23-May-2003 03:37 GMT by Hugh Jassman94 comments
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Most old amiga software will NOT run on OS4 but instead will need to be replaced by new software applications such as those recompiled. but still anytrhing that requires custom chips will need to be rewritten for software. But if you will notice, there are under 20 people writing software for OS4. MorphOS has more coders working on stuff because they are running on at least at least 600 motherboards. Most AmigaOne motherboards are running Linux, so how this would benefit OS4 remains unseen. Do you get?
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 1 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by elektro on 23-May-2003 02:36 GMT
lol
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 2 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by James Carroll on 23-May-2003 03:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (elektro):
OS 4.0 (Like MorphOS) will run classic Amiga software that is system friendly. Most software is system friendly these days. Anyway, as OS 4.0 is based on OS 3.9, only minimal changes should be required to recompile your program for OS 4.0.

Yes there are 600 Pegasoses out there, but you can still develop OS 4.0 software on OS 3.x.

Btw, MorphOS sounds pretty cool. I wouldnt mind trying it out one day.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 3 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-May-2003 03:31 GMT
"if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and sounds like a duck it must be a ..."
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 4 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Robin Cloutman on 23-May-2003 03:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
swan (iirc) ;-)
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 5 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Remco komduur on 23-May-2003 03:49 GMT
Aaahhhh.....another pathetic attempt to discredit the AmigaOne and OS 4 which is also based on wrong facts. Your sir are the FUDD meister.

Most old software WILL RUN on the AmigaOne via emulation. Most OLD software will even benefit from running on OS 4 because every piece of the OS used that now runs natively on the G3/G4 will make it go faster.

Take Cinema4D for an example. It uses the math libraries heavilly. Thats why using the HSMathLibs makes the rendering go a lot faster. The math libraries will run natively on the G3/G4 with OS4 so the rendering speed goes way,way up.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 6 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 23-May-2003 04:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Remco komduur):
You should give the guy a break - it's not his fault that he has to post crud like this. There's a rumour going around that in order to have qualified for a "discounted" Pegasos you had to sign an agreement stating that you would bombard ANN with scaremongering about tales "rival products" in an attempt to discredit OS4/AmigaOne/Mai/Eyetech/Hyperion/Amiga Inc/etc.

He's just fulfilling his contract ;-)

Expect a lot more of this in the near future, especially after OS4 is released and a dual G4 CPU AmigaOne is demoed running it... :-)
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 7 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 23-May-2003 04:54 GMT
This is the most stupid attempt to make sum fuzz ether at ann.lu

/*
Most old amiga software will NOT run on OS4 but instead will need to be replaced by new software applications such as those recompiled. but still anytrhing that requires custom chips will need to be rewritten for software.
*/

What is your point you have NOT read the MorphOS test report have you? If you start blaming OS4 for not running hardware dependent application and in attempt to differ it from MorphOS, I can tell you this that the report from a tow days back state that MorphOS crashes and freezes when they try run hardware dependent apps.

OS4.0 will have memory protection all over the place protection memory, keeping an track on if the program try to access out side reserved memory areas, and will not allow programs to access old hardware it will force a program stop, an requestor will appear or something like that,

While the A/BOX used in MorphOS reserve big chuck of memory to prevent latency between the A/BOX and the MorphOS kernel, makes however makes an otter problem, this is the “NO support for memory protection in the A/BOX”, this again makes MorphOS better at crashing then OS4.0, while we continue to NOT hear from Q/Box, and we continue to hear of freezes and crashes, the only progress we have seen the last days is better GUI, and more Morph OS apps, which is not using the Q/box as there are no Q/box. Every effort to make memory protection has failed as long as there are no Q/BOX (any new kernel interface that allows memory protection).
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 8 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-May-2003 04:54 GMT
troll troll troll troll *yawns*

It's amazing how people pick bullsh't facts out of the air and choose to air them here, and do so coming from know real knowledge, infact, coming from ignorance, generally.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 9 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 23-May-2003 04:59 GMT
@Hugh

You should be ashamed of yourself, not for what you put in the screaming news story which is easily corrected but your news headline is not backed up by your
news story. You say "NO" software, and then contradict yourself.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 10 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by dan boyd on 23-May-2003 05:05 GMT
I not sure whether this post comes from being ill-informed or a desire to delibrately post mistruths.


OS4 WILL RUN OLD AMIGA SOFTWARE IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY AMITHLON, MOS OR WINUAE CAN.

New OS4 PPC apps will appear once the OS is out there.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 11 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-May-2003 05:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Kjetil):
You are my hero!
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 12 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 23-May-2003 05:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (dan boyd):
See how the blue drum gets beaten in frenzy just after the AOS4 roadshow announcement?

The blue trolls frightened of losing mindshare??
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 13 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 23-May-2003 05:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (dan boyd):
> OS4 WILL RUN OLD AMIGA SOFTWARE IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY AMITHLON, MOS OR WINUAE CAN.

Sadly it's far from being true. Like MorphOS yes, but less than amithlon, and muuuuuch less than winuae.

(only 100% system friendly ones)
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 14 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Xtacy on 23-May-2003 05:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Kjetil):
"OS4 will have memory protection..."

>>> MMHhhhhhhh.... Why not (even if it is totally false). But if there
is memory protection, your old softwares that need to access the
custom chipsets of your old Amiga won't work at all jsut because those
kind of specific chipsets don't exist on the Aone board.

Regards,

Xtacy
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 15 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 23-May-2003 05:34 GMT
Hello,

"OS4.0 will have memory protection all over the place protection memory, keeping an track on if the program try to access out side reserved memory areas, and will not allow programs to access old hardware it will force a program stop, an requestor will appear or something like that"

As it has been already precised by Mr Hermans and Friedens, the memory proteciton will not be activated in AmigaOS 4.0 as this would break too many application. Here an extract of the Ben Hermans interview on Amiga.org:

Ben Hermans: "Memory protection is a different matter as currently we still have a single, albeit virtual address space in OS 4.0. We'll only introduce isolated addresses spaces in later OS upgrades. Doing so now, would break far too many applications."

"While the A/BOX used in MorphOS reserve big chuck of memory to prevent latency between the A/BOX and the MorphOS kernel, makes however makes an otter problem, this is the ?NO support for memory protection in the A/BOX?, this again makes MorphOS better at crashing then OS4.0, while we continue to NOT hear from Q/Box, and we continue to hear of freezes and crashes, the only progress we have seen the last days is better GUI, and more Morph OS apps, which is not using the Q/box as there are no Q/box. Every effort to make memory protection has failed as long as there are no Q/BOX (any new kernel interface that allows memory protection)"

The quark kernel and the A-Box application itself are already taking advantage of the memory protection. Of course for compatibility reasons, applications running inside the A-Box can't be protected (it's not just a question of wanting to have memory protection or not, it's simply impossible to use memory protection with AmigaOS 3.x software).

The Q-Box, which will be a complete new environment, will of course allow to write softwares that will be able to take advantage of memory protection. The Q-Box already exist in a basic form (enough elements to run the A-Box), but yes it's still need a lot of work before being a complete environment.

Bye
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 16 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 23-May-2003 05:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Frodon):
Q/Box, Jam Tommorrow.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 17 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-May-2003 05:48 GMT
I'm impressed! You obviously have some real insight into a product that hasn't even been released yet..... Are you closely involved with Hyperion? Do you possess some internal document that hasn't yet been leaked to the press? It's amazing how you can speak with such authority on this subject! We'd all love to hear from you how you reached this conclusion.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 18 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 23-May-2003 05:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Anonymous):
>>It's amazing how you can speak with such authority on this subject! We'd all love to hear from you how you reached this conclusion.

Probably by keeping his mouth shut and his eyes and ears open. Unlike the person who started this thread who obviously does not even subscribe to the OS4 mailing list... yawn...
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 19 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 23-May-2003 06:12 GMT
They have a way to put memory aside, that can be programmed to emulate the custom chips, even better than UAE can.

Which will create a SW chip where we could make a custom Agnus, that goes out to 32, even 64 megs of chip ram. WOOOHOOOO!!!

AmigaOne! Superior, in every way!
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 20 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by reflect on 23-May-2003 06:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Frodon):
Frodon, I believe your quote is slightly off there. Here's the full quote which also states that OS4.0 will have memory protection for essential parts of the OS.

"Memory protection is a different matter as currently we still have a single, albeit virtual address space in OS 4.0. We'll only introduce isolated addresses spaces in later OS upgrades. Doing so now, would break far too many applications.
As a result in OS 4.0 only program code and kernel code will be protected against overwriting. Unused memory will not be mapped and any program trying to access it, will also trigger an exception."
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 21 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 23-May-2003 06:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (mahen):
"Sadly it's far from being true. Like MorphOS yes, but less than amithlon, and muuuuuch less than winuae."

It's hard to think of any reason why a program that runs in Amithlon would not run on an AmigaOne. AmigaOS 4 running on an A4000 will probably run several that do not run on Amithlon.

OTOH WinUAE will certainly run many old programs and games that do not work with RTG.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 22 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by miksuh on 23-May-2003 06:31 GMT
Some people seem to be really desperate to damage OS4 :P
You guys are REALLY PATHETIC !!!!

OS4 and MorphOS BOTH will run most of the old Amiga system friendly software, games and applications. BOTH will run only system friendly software, neither MOS nor OS4 can run software which requires Classic Amigas custom chipset.
But BOTH will have UAE sooner or later, and that will allow you to run eg. AGA games too.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 23 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by miksuh on 23-May-2003 06:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (miksuh):
It's good that those people are only wery small, but loud, minority though.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 24 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 23-May-2003 06:37 GMT
Could someone please revote this gentlemen's internet access rigthts?

Cheers
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 25 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 23-May-2003 06:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (reflect):
Hello,

" Frodon, I believe your quote is slightly off there. Here's the full quote which also states that OS4.0 will have memory protection for essential parts of the OS."

Yes indeed, just like MorphOS today.

Regards
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 26 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 23-May-2003 07:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (DaveP):
DaveP wrote:

> See how the blue drum gets beaten in frenzy just after the AOS4 roadshow announcement?
> The blue trolls frightened of losing mindshare?

You're right, there are some blue trolls, just as there are red ones. Thankfully, most of the people I know who actually *have* and *are using* a Pegasos know better than to post that kind of drivel. I hope nobody makes the mistake of associated "blue trolls" with the majority of Pegasos enthusiasts who are into computing, not flaming and fudding. Actually I've read more positive reactions than negative ones from Pegasos owners I know, regarding the AOS4 roadshow. So much for the blue/red polarity.

-- gary_c
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 27 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Seymour Butts on 23-May-2003 07:16 GMT
Right. Like anyone is going to take advice seriously from a man who's name is pronounced "Huge Ass-man".
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 28 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 23-May-2003 07:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Don Cox):
of course, I was refering to the AmigaOne version. MorphOS & OS4 won't have access to the old amiga HW on such pieces of H/W, so many old programs won't work anymore. But hey, that's the price to pay. I'm sure Amithlon can run MORE than MOS/OS4 on new H/W.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 29 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Georg Steger on 23-May-2003 07:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Don Cox):
> It's hard to think of any reason why a program that runs in Amithlon would not run on an AmigaOne.

There is a bit of hw emulation in Amithlon. Like the one of
address 0xbfe001 which on Amiga hw contains status of left mouse
button. And some more, AFAIK.

Not likely to be present in AOS4/A1.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 30 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 23-May-2003 07:38 GMT
This thread is pointless.
MOS AND OS4 will have the same problems.

1) no classic H/W present on new PPC machines prevents many apps from running
2) no real memory protection will make the system crash frequently, particularly apps which are not system friendly

how to solve this ?

on MOS: only the A/BOX will crash (for the time being, the only visible thing). When the Q/Box gets developed, the real memory protection will be used by all new applications, and a crash of the A/Bx won't be annoying anymore.

on OS4: old apps will always crash the entire OS but in further amigaOS versions, apps using a new API will be capable of using real MP
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 31 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 23-May-2003 07:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (mahen):
(I don't really know, but maybe some other significant changes will enable OS4 not to crash completely, later, but this is gonna need some heavy work, just like the Q/Box will take some years to be completed)
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 32 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 23-May-2003 07:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (gary_c):
You mean the blue trolls are a minority? Good god in heavens! :P

Cheers
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 33 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 23-May-2003 07:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Frodon):
I will explain way I wrote it like I have,

I se the topic as bias there for making and direct comparison is the only way to revile the trout about the products, I se no difference between my comment and your in the sense of the words,

You say the <“Quark kernel” and “A-Box” application itself are alary taking advantage of the memory protection,>

This means that A-Box can not crash the Quark kernel but it can crash every thing else inn side the A-Box.

Quote <it's simply impossible to use memory protection with AmigaOS 3.x software>

This is true, the 68k program can have access to turning on and off memory protection reserving read only memory / write only memory, changing state of the memory protection etc, there for every malloc used by 68k program most be shard memory, how ever this do not mean that otter system memory can not be protected, allows the 68k program to take indirect advantage by the memory protection, by not allowing the program to access daggers areas in the memory segments. (hardware)

Quote <The Q-Box> I’m finished withe Q-Box there is no Q-Box just like we have not have any idea how AmigaOS4.0 will work until there is any thing to look at, until the roadshow.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 34 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 23-May-2003 07:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Frodon):
Frodon, it's incredible to realize that criticisms and flamewars are mainly due to.. mis-information...
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 35 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 23-May-2003 07:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Kjetil):
Yep it's true; the first OS4 and MOS will be mainly for (ex-)amigans because they inherit from some serious limitations of the AmigaOS. :(
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 36 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 23-May-2003 07:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Kjetil):
Shit…

“This is true, the 68k program can have access to turning on and off memory protection reserving read only memory”

Replace this line with

“This is true, the 68k program can NOT have access to turning on and off memory protection reserving read only memory / write only memory”
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 37 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 23-May-2003 07:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (mahen):
Hello Mahen :)

"Frodon, it's incredible to realize that criticisms and flamewars are mainly due to.. mis-information.."

Indeed :(

Regards
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 38 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Jupp3 on 23-May-2003 08:36 GMT
Well, truth of the claim (that AmigaOS 4 won't run most old software) depends on how you define "most old software"

If you define it as "Every program / Game released since A1000 was introduced" it sure *IS* very true claim. (Unless you use UAE)

But of course, most system friendly software should work.

But beware, there are lots of software, that only LOOK like, they're system friendly :-)
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 39 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 23-May-2003 08:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Amon_Re):
> You mean the blue trolls are a minority? Good god in heavens! :P

I think he means that the trolls are in a minority. He happens to have been speaking about the blue side of things. It probably applies to the red side, or will do when OS4 actually ships to users.

In both cases, the trolls get most of attention because they make most of the noise, and so both sides get characterised by the behaviour of the trollish minority rather than the more pragmatic and sensible majority.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 40 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Bernd Meyer on 23-May-2003 08:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Atheist2):
No, they don't. Don't confuse what you want to believe you understand with what is actually true.It's relatively easy to catch memory accesses in the $dff000 area; If nothing else, you simply keep the relevant page(s) unmapped, and then let the MMU do all the detection for you.In fact, you *need* to do this for existing 68k code, anyway, because a lot of that code will happily hit the interrupt disable/enable registers directly, rather than use the exec.library functions. Which isn't even bad programming style, seeing as the official system include file "exec/ables.i" has macros that do just that.So catching the memory accesses is the easy part. The hard part is emulating what the custom chips will do in response --- which often is extremely *timing*-dependent. Which is what UAE spends amazing amount of code and CPU cycles on getting right, and which no added-as-an-afterthought "custom chip emulation" for OS4 will be able to do.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 41 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Ben on 23-May-2003 09:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Bernd Meyer):
So the moral of the story is that if you want custom chip emulation use something that does it "on top of" OS4 (UAE?) - that way it wont crash the whole OS?
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 42 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 23-May-2003 09:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Bernd Meyer):
"So catching the memory accesses is the easy part. The hard part is emulating what the custom chips will do in response --- which often is extremely *timing*-dependent. Which is what UAE spends amazing amount of code and CPU cycles on getting right, and which no added-as-an-afterthought "custom chip emulation" for OS4 will be able to do."

I would assume that such an emulation would be heavily based on the UAE code.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 43 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 23-May-2003 09:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Don Cox):
@Don

> I would assume that such an emulation would be heavily based on the UAE code.

I think the point is that custom chip emulation can only be fully achieved as part of a complete emulator, and not as a bolt-on module that will come into play if a program tries to access the custom chips.

Essentially, if you need the custom chips, you'll be using UAE, not running some sort of semi-native environment.

Bernie didn't put it in those words, but that's my reading of it.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 44 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 23-May-2003 09:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Bernd Meyer):
May be there are some less timing sensitive custom chips that can be emulated to improve capability.
Do you have any tip?
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 45 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 23-May-2003 09:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Darrin):
Where did you read such bullshit? I would refuse to sign any such contract even
if it was presented to me, yet I got a discount. There's no such contract or
agreement ANYWHERE. And no, I'm not even NDAed.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 46 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 23-May-2003 10:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Ben):
It will slow down the system to a crawl. That's the point.
The MMU exceptions will slow it down and the emulation will have to idle
almost at all times, to keep correct timing.
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 47 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 23-May-2003 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Darrin):
> You should give the guy a break - it's not his fault that he has to post crud
> like this. There's a rumour going around that in order to have qualified for a > "discounted" Pegasos you had to sign an agreement stating that you would
> bombard ANN with scaremongering about tales "rival products" in an attempt to
> discredit OS4/AmigaOne/Mai/Eyetech/Hyperion/Amiga Inc/etc.

So you post this crap instead? Oh, your suppost to get a "discount" on a AmigaOne and a T-Shirt by slagging Genesi instead? I see now.

Dammy
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 48 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 23-May-2003 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Oh bloody hell Alkis!!! It was a JOKE!!! I was spoofing his BS with some BS of my own with a ****ing big smiley on the end so that even the die-hard members of the Blue-Banner Brigade would be able to tell I was kidding.

Someone urinated on your cornflakes this morning? ;-)
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 49 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 23-May-2003 10:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (dammy):
on second thoughts... it appears someone has emailed the MOS-Fanatic-SS Division and ordered them to counter attack....

Sheesh.

<Waiting for Cheesegrate and/or David S to post....>
OS4 but no software to run on it : Comment 50 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Neko on 23-May-2003 10:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Don Cox):
Don: whatever they have, or think they have, I think it's just called "UAE".

Come on, seriously, all they've done or planned to do is port UAE so you can
run older apps in a window like everyone with a PC, Mac or even Playstation
has been able to do with UAE since the dawn of the ages.

There's absolutely *no* good way to integrate external apps with the inbuilt
68k emulators on either MorphOS or AmigaOS 4.x. In order to sync CPU cycles
with chipset cycles you just can't drop it on top of (or even underneath)
OS4 and expect it to work. For that to work, the 68k emulator would have to
control the PPC processor's actions. Backwards.

So the emulation of the 68k would be seperate, the chipset emulation would
be seperate. You're emulating a whole Classic Amiga. Any actual legacy
integration into the "New OS" would be impossible at this level.

A sandbox, if you will. What you have to do then is somehow "emulate" the API
of the new OS inside the old one. The old WarpOS/AmigaOS UAE ports actually
patched parts of the UAE ROM to use native functions, which was neat, but not entirely far-reaching stuff.

You don't want to know how much work this all is. It's taken them over a year
to even stabilise the ABI and hack the emulator into their bad design, I doubt
they could implement this (and the swathes of OS support required) in any
version to be completed this decade.

I only hope we see the "release notes" and "changelogs" from this project to
carry on the Commodore tradition, so that we can finally see what a fuck-up
it's been from the very beginning..

Neko
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