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[Forum] BBRV Communique: Decisions ANN.lu Posted on 13-Jan-2004 00:45 GMT by Daniel Miller 49 comments View flat View list On some mailing lists BBRV stated major decisions were imminent and asked for feedback on their communique on MorphOS-News.de: "MorphOS can do all the things that people want to do -- surf the net and send email, listen to music, watch movies or videos, and even in the not too distant future offer voice and video over IP. Together with the Pegasos we can do it all... Every computer (controller)/consumer electronics device you use will be linked to your credit card accounts... That IS what is coming." Today, a computer is a commodity. The first element of consideration is price. The second issue is what you can do with it and how easy it is to do it. There is nothing else that matters in the grand scheme of things. Two million IBM PCs will be given away in the UK for FREE in 2004 against viewing required advertisements. Advertisers are branding their own Music Download services, Coke in the UK for example. Now think about that in concert with a free computers. In the meanwhile, we have had a few major decisions all in December 2003! 1. P2P software not illegal (Canada) 2. KaZaa not illegal (Holland) 3. DVD ripping not illegal (Norway) 4. Royalties to US artists not required (Israel) 5. ISPs are not required to reveal music file sharers (USA) Whew! What is next? At CES, HP's CEO, Carly Fiorina, said, "Starting this year, we'll strive to build every one of our consumer devices to respect digital rights." They also announced they would rebadge Apple's iPod and make it their own. The simultaneous moves by such a HUGE technology company like HP means MAJOR changes are coming. For HP to completely support the dying, old world empire of the music and movie industry shows how fragile the idea of an open PC has become. The FREE INTERNET will not go away, but something VERY different is coming. Also, at CES, we see BIG television everywhere. The Home Entertainment Center is the new focus. Some big screen/plasma/digital television come with printers and CD/DVD capability built in so photos can be viewed and shared -- not to mention TiVo functionality. So... The big computer and big consumer electronics companies cannot survive without serving the entertainment industry. The general purpose PC *is* finished. What you WILL see next is CPRM and many new proprietary devices, proprietary interfaces, copy protection, and limited functionality designed to do just that. Every computer (controller)/consumer electronics device you use will be linked to your credit card accounts for all the monthly rental and service charges you will be paying for every thing you do. That is what is coming. We think MorphOS can fit somewhere in between and that is where we think we should be headed. 1. MorphOS is "new" and can meet the "proprietary" requirements of the entertainment industry. Together with the Pegasos we have it. 2. MorphOS can do all the things that people want to do -- surf the net and send email, listen to music, watch movies or videos, and even in the not too distant future offer voice and video over IP. Together with the Pegasos we can do it all. Actually, we can support both the "FREE" and the not so free Internet. The Internet of tomorrow will become the leading form of music, movie and video game distribution. Whatever you want, whenever you want it. With Microsoft asking for $400 for Office 2003 the entertainment and "work" worlds are headed in separate directions. MorphOS needs to head toward the consumer and toward being a solution for Consumer Electronic vendors -- all those people selling televisions at CES this year from Motorola to Dell to Sony to Sharp -- each a different kind of company but all headed for the same space. It is not an STB. It is more than that. It is not just a digital hub either. It is different. It is everything and it all ties into a complete system. That is where things are going. MorphOS and the Pegasos can be to the Home Entertainment Center what the iPod has been for music. It will just take the right partners and plenty of money. Once that starts happening this community and MorphOS can start taking care of itself both individually as Developers and corporately as Genesi. It will now take some coordination and cooperation if we want to make it happen. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 1 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Grrrreat on 12-Jan-2004 23:58 GMT Keeping my accounts and computers separate - thankyaverymuch BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 2 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by cheesegrate on 13-Jan-2004 01:34 GMT if he asked for feedback at mosnews then why are u posting it here daniel? it was quite obvious things would go full circle to the oriignal viscorp vison BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 3 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Raffaele on 13-Jan-2004 01:56 GMT BBRV wrote: >The big computer and big consumer electronics companies cannot >survive without serving the entertainment industry. Yes they can. Who need movies? Me no. A computer NOT serving entertainment industry is a computer WORTHY buying. A computer is a computer and a TV-set is a TV-set. All I must do is to wait for 2 or 3 years and all movies actually in cinemas will be passed from expensive premiere limited editions to cheap editions tapes and DVDs into the shops... Moviemakers have their proper gain even when selling cheap editions, and we buyers are content! ;-))))) And more: expecting 4 or 5 years, and new movies actually in cinemas will be played into national broadcast televisions here. (At least so it happens in Italy) A passage of a movie on broadcast televisions is a sure gain for the moviemakers which sell that movie to the broadcasts. Televisions have their gain by selling advertising. People are content because they can see their movie free of charge. And piracy is defeated because nobody want to buy a movie which is passed on TV's. So this is why I can wait. ***[But for sure... ...regarding games (another face of the entertainment world) I approve the commercing of more protected devices]***. >The general purpose PC *is* finished. So the future we all will see is about to be atrocious: Houses will be full of PC's/settopboxes/devices suitable only for 1 task/device only. Hummm... this will mean, that in the future, we will need a lot of space into our houses in order to place all these dedicated devices... >What you WILL see next is CPRM and many new proprietary devices, >proprietary interfaces, >copy protection, and limited functionality designed to do just that. Limited functionality? Limited functionality of devices and media = Garbage everywhere. Sure this will be a HUUGE problem for the environment. A reason not to buy anymore computers or dedicated devices. Results: No buyers anymore? The entertainment industry will collapse. And hopefully all the trusts which keep prices of the media overpriced will collapse too. >Every computer (controller)/consumer electronics device you use >will be linked to your credit card accounts for all >the monthly rental and service charges >you will be paying for every thing you do. A reason not to buy electronics devices anymore. We will see a return of the people to cash money... Plastic money will be abandoned due to the continue robber of money by pirates! But the REAL problem will be the dishonest service charges. For example (excuse me but again I give you all an example involving Italy): Here the so called "dialers problem" (a dishonest service charge) is becoming very serious and police is indagating this fraud. People are authorized not to pay telephone bills if a dialer redirects internet calls away from the usual provider. And the fraud is that dialers redirects internet calls even if you choose "No" at the dialer loading request window. And fortunately the best part of the bills here is still not payed by credit cards. So the thiefs had not received directly on their bank accounts the money they have stolen and had received only a few money. But this example I made does not match perfectly the future you described. Instead, imagine in the next future **for example**: What if your credit card will be charged every time you pass nearby a multimedia commercial advertising poster only because it plays certain songs...??? (a remote but possible event) For sure I will freeze my credit cards payments and I will break down all the fuc***g multimedia advertising posters. Ah... BBRV. The Future... ...maybe it will be match the plans of the bast**** persons who pretend to have the skills and the power to rebuild our future. But I hope it will completely different from these orwellian projects. A future in which everything can charge me of bills even if I do not want any service... ...well A future LIKE THAT sure chills me. Bye, Raffaele BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 4 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Raffaele on 13-Jan-2004 02:18 GMT Whoops. He was not BBRV who wrote... It is Daniel Miller quoting BBRV. I apologize... However, I want to point a fact. It is a lot of time that BBRV is insisting on a Pegasos directly involved into: -Secure Internet Strange... because a Pegasos is already secure because it runs internet thru proprietary software & hardware which is difficult to be hacked... -Pay per View services and *ME* certainly will not buy a Pegasos to see cable TV! (I don't know about you other users, please enlighten me about your wishes) -Multiple embedded services (built into computer solid die) in offer from third parties. Services which need duty of charges automatically performed by the computer which picks money ***automatically*** from our credit card to pay it all. A sure reason not to buy such a computer. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 5 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Clownface on 13-Jan-2004 02:35 GMT From none other than that famous Blue Troll! The original posts on the MOS news was good, but did you have to spam it here? :-) BBRV, on the mark as usual! Good Luck friends! By the way, is some of this set top box software *already* developed, perhaps from viscorp days or what? BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 6 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 13-Jan-2004 02:37 GMT In reply to Comment 2 (cheesegrate): cheesegrate (203.14.170.248) on 13-Jan-2004 02:34:58 if he asked for feedback at mosnews then why are u posting it here daniel? it was quite obvious things would go full circle to the oriignal viscorp vison cheesegrate, the cheese troll!! BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 7 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Mr. Anonymous on 13-Jan-2004 03:44 GMT "...Every computer (controller)/consumer electronics device you use will be linked to your credit card accounts... That IS what is coming." If so, then it's time to build a time machine. 1985 sounds good! :) Sound like they have no vision and are following the latest fad. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 8 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Amon_Re on 13-Jan-2004 07:25 GMT I'm afraid that there's nothing new in this post, and all the things mentioned can already be achieved, and i would know, because i already do most of them ;) One thing that bothers me is the Digital Rights thingie, i don't want my computer to tell me what files i'm allowed to use, i'll decide that myself. The notion that the "free internet" would disapear is however, something that might happen, the net as it is now is already being poisoned by things like virusses, spam and intrusive software like malware etc etc, so the tidings seem to be getting right for companies like M$ to implement their own "internet", where they can control easilly what people do. But then again, maybe i'm just being paranoid Cheers BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 9 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 13-Jan-2004 07:29 GMT >Every computer (controller)/consumer electronics device you use >will be linked to your credit card accounts for all >the monthly rental and service charges >you will be paying for every thing you do. A typical American vision. But what Billy Boy doesn't understand is that europeans barely pay by credit card. Most of them don't even have a credit card, while Americans pay even thei coffee by credit card. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 10 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 13-Jan-2004 07:30 GMT And what about this crosspost? Billy boy took a wise decision by not posting his BS here anymore. Please keep it this way because I notice a huge decrease in blue troll activity as well. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 11 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Mr. Anonymous on 13-Jan-2004 07:43 GMT In reply to Comment 8 (Amon_Re): Don't worry. The computer will not tell you what content you are allowed you use/view/listen/copy. You can decide to do whatever you want with whatever content you want. The computer will just charge the fees to your credit card/bank account. :) BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 12 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Zylesea on 13-Jan-2004 09:15 GMT In reply to Comment 3 (Raffaele): Well even cash is considered to be identifieable in future thanks to RFID. The European central bank doesn´t confirm plans taht RFID will added to the Euronotes but they don´t deny it either... BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 13 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Raffaele on 13-Jan-2004 09:24 GMT In reply to Comment 8 (Amon_Re): Mr. Amon_Re wrote: >But then again, maybe i'm just being paranoid Relax, you aren't... Ehm I want to mean It is time to worry because you aren't... Well... humm... clear isn't it? ;-)))))))))))) BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 14 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Raffaele on 13-Jan-2004 09:44 GMT In reply to Comment 11 (Mr. Anonymous): Another Anonymous wrote: >Don't worry. The computer will not tell you what content >you are allowed you use/view/listen/copy. >You can decide to do whatever you want >with whatever content you want. >The computer will just charge the fees >to your credit card/bank account. :) Well... to avoid you the control of whatever you want is coming PALLADIUM. To avoid you the control of which is on your computer (files) the new Filesystem ***Winfilesystem*** is coming. Imagine that the files will be available to you, even if not stored phisically on your computer (and you have no permission to know which of them is really on it) This is the amazing future we will e"XP"erience... And I will predice you that the preferred joke of the pirates of the future will be: To keep available unwanted things on the computer of someone, by using the bugs of this new *clownesque* filesystem WINFILESYSTEM... BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 15 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by frankb on 13-Jan-2004 09:51 GMT I find it funny that BBRV now is outlaying everyting that Billy Boy said was going to happen 2 (two) years ago, and basically says "this is the new thing," though not exactly in those words, or just in this "new" announcement. It's been ongoing. I think both "sides" just need to figure out where they are, meet the *demand* for their product, and then decied where they are going to go. All of this hyperbola is not going to get anyone anywhere. I am not on any "side." I am just a loyal devotee of what Jay M, Carl S, RJ M, Dale L, Dave N, and the rest of the crew had in mind when all this BS stared over 20 (yes, its been over twenty) years ago. ATM, I find Amiga, Inc. in contempt for not doing any PR or giving any answers to OUR questions about how they are doing to the community, but I also find BBRV (Genesi,Bplan,DCE,RS,etc.) in contempt for not doing anything to make THEIR past go away, except for pointing fingers and saying everything will come out fine, or that they never did anyting wrong in the first place. Although Amiga, Inc. isn't doing Jack Sheite, their contractors (Hyperion and crew) are. Even though BBRV (et. al.) are doing well (from the looks of it), their past track record isn't. I'm just sick of hearing "We are the next best thing to sliced bread," and "we are going to do this and that," when the announcements were already given two years ago and are being mimicked now. Put your sheite out, and if you *REALLY* have an announcement, then let us know. No more "we are then next best thing." The next best thing happend a long time ago. Hyp and crew know that, and BBRV knows that. You, both of you, are in contempt if either of you spout anything that even comes close to those words. WE, the silent majority, are watching. NO MORE BULLSHEITE. Make us Happy! BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 16 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Alan LM Buxey on 13-Jan-2004 09:52 GMT a few comments to make: >Two million IBM PCs will be given away in the UK for FREE in 2004 against >viewing required advertisements. Advertisers are branding their own Music >Download services, Coke in the UK for example. Now think about that in concert >with a free computers. this PC scheme will fail. its failed elsewhere for the same reasons Music Download schemes are still in their infancy. expect the real players to enter the market soon and clear out all the small fish. MSPs (Music Service providers) *MIGHT* take off... but too soon to tell. DRM will fail. >1. P2P software not illegal (Canada) 2. KaZaa not illegal (Holland) 3. DVD >ripping not illegal (Norway) 4. Royalties to US artists not required (Israel) >5. ISPs are not required to reveal music file sharers (USA) 1) if used for legal purposes. of course they are inherently not illegal. Like music and video players. 2) ditto 3) wrong. the Norwegian decision was that it isnt wrong to bypass the CSS protection to PLAY the DVD. dont read any more into it than that. 4) why shouldnt royalties be paid? I dont see this sticking at all. 5) good. but they [ISP] should take action against people using their networks for illegal reasons - such as warning them, penalty disconnections, speed restrictions etc - just as they should for customers who use their connection for attempted attacks >At CES, HP's CEO, Carly Fiorina, said, "Starting this year, we'll strive to >build every one of our consumer devices to respect digital rights." They also So? people will stop buying HP hardware... or , as usual, 1 month later there'll be a piece of software to bypass this. DRM will fail. unless you can wipe out the past decade of music/video players NOTHING will stop someone getting a DRM track and converting it to a plain format..which can then be played on all current DRM-less hardware/software. >The FREE INTERNET will not go away, but something VERY different is coming. yes. something that the corporations can control. something that stifles single user innovation. NAT helps this, as once you stick a NAT router in the way of the end user, that end users machine is no longer a free end point on the internet. no more using fancy programs. look at speak freely for more info. >Also, at CES, we see BIG television everywhere. The Home Entertainment Center >is the new focus. Some big screen/plasma/digital television come with printers >and CD/DVD capability built in so photos can be viewed and shared -- not to >mention TiVo functionality. sod solid screens. My next big screen will be courtesy of a digital projector. 80" screen for 700 UKP. thanks very much. why do i want yet another access point for DVD/printer/memorycard etc? I want to use one of my 6 current DVD/memorycard/USB terminals to view the data. which bit of this is hard to understand? >1. MorphOS is "new" and can meet the "proprietary" requirements of the >entertainment industry. Together with the Pegasos we have it. not if its using AmigaOS to do its work. all that lovely open access shared memory means i can decode that DRM key in seconds. I can read and write whatever i want. this isnt closed enough at all. only if the Q-Box system was used would there be hope...but then you've lost all the good bits that MorphOs users want to use...ie AmigaOS >2. MorphOS can do all the things that people want to do -- surf the net and >send email, listen to music, watch movies or videos, and even in the not too >distant future offer voice and video over IP. Together with the Pegasos we can MorphOS now comes with its own TCP/IP stack and its own email program? its not the OS that does this, but the end results of 3rd party coders...my C64 can surf the net and email. i wouldnt recommend it to many people at all ;-) >those people selling televisions at CES this year from Motorola to Dell to Sony >to Sharp -- each a different kind of company but all headed for the same space. I, for one, would like to see the end of TV as a massmarket entertainment solution...its gotten very very bad ...and which bits of this post were from Bill, and which bits werent spoken by him. wasnt clear at all alan BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 17 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Raffaele on 13-Jan-2004 09:55 GMT In reply to Comment 12 (Zylesea): Mr. Zylesea wrote: >Well even cash is considered to be identifieable in future >thanks to RFID. >The European central bank doesn´t confirm plans >taht RFID will added to the Euronotes >but they don´t deny it either... So they can track only salaries and money coming out of banks. Then... even if your salary bucks have RFID in it... (for example a banknote of 10 euros) all you need is enter in a shop or a marketplace... ...and to ask the clerk if he can change your buck of ten in two of 5. Money changed? -End of tracking.- Money not changed? repeat step 1 (request of changing money) until it works... BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 18 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Jope on 13-Jan-2004 11:40 GMT In reply to Comment 4 (Raffaele): > -Secure Internet > >Strange... because a Pegasos is already secure because it runs internet thru >proprietary software & hardware which is difficult to be hacked... Excuse me? Security through obscurity is not security at all. It's true, a Pegasos running MorphOS will be "safer" than an x86 box running Linux, but it doesn't mean it's difficult to be hack or unhackable. If you substitute MorphOS for Linux (which is almost necessary if you intend to run any modern internet services on the box), you immediately step down on your "security" a bit - there are many other PPC Linux boxen out there, so it's even easier for someone to create exploits. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 19 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Bill Hoggett on 13-Jan-2004 11:46 GMT Well, as far as I'm concerned this proprietary world where all the users are fleeced continuously by corporations and spivs who just want to attach a price to anything should be actively rejected by all responsible users. Reject the technologies. Reject the equipment (even if you're told it's free - it isn't). Reject the software. Reject the companies. Quite frankly the future according to BBRV stinks. It's a future designed to rip everyone off by removing the option of choosing free alternatives. In fact, it's a future desined to eliminate all free alternatives. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 20 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Anonymous on 13-Jan-2004 11:59 GMT Funny, I remember Bill McEwen saying the same things almost... what... 3 years ago? And now the blue trolls are jumping up and down of joy from hearing the same things from Buck. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 21 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Raffaele on 13-Jan-2004 12:23 GMT In reply to Comment 18 (Jope): Mr Jope wrote: >Security through obscurity is not security at all. >It's true, a Pegasos running MorphOS will be "safer" >than an x86 box running Linux, >but it doesn't mean it's difficult to be hack or unhackable. Please do not extend the meaning of what I wrote. Certainly Pegasos is not unhackable... Any machine is hackable if you try with intensity and skills for a long amount of time... But actually sure a Pegasos is a difficult machine to be hacked, because a hacker must learn new methods to discover bugs and exploits, then he must deal with a different organization in managing executables, change settings, and he/she then must acquire new skills in finding files on HD structure and filesystems he knows nothing of. This is enough to let us breathe for a lot of time... But sure it is necessary to deal with improved Seek&Resolving of bugs in programs and tcp/ip stacks and realize good firewalls to let us stay safe for more more years... BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 22 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Ray A. Akey on 13-Jan-2004 13:07 GMT In reply to Comment 21 (Raffaele): > Certainly Pegasos is not unhackable... > Any machine is hackable if you try with intensity > and skills for a long amount of time... Unhackable or not is not a *machine* dependant or independant notion. It is the kernel and OS installed on that OS that is the security factor, not the machine itself. Hardware, by nature, is not network hackable. Speaking of security, MorphOS is not (as a rule) "unhackable" nor is AmigaOS. The biggest reason being because neither of them are operating systems with a multiuser filesystem. Anytime you put a daemon online with either OS, and that daemon has exploitable code, your whole filesystem will be exposed. If either had a multiuser filesystem, then you would be able to apply permissions to prevent the exploit from going too far awry (that is, if you have any sort of clue about security). BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 23 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Zylesea on 13-Jan-2004 13:28 GMT In reply to Comment 17 (Raffaele): This works only if the network of RFID receivers is not too close... But maybe a 887MHz distortion sender would make the RFID spying capabilities fail. But back on topic: I totally agree with Bill Hogget here. Reject such technology and services. It´s too much of 1984 in it - and yes, I am not *too* paranoid. Chose freedom! BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 24 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by MarkTime on 13-Jan-2004 13:48 GMT In reply to Comment 22 (Ray A. Akey): Ray has a good point here. But I will continue on my own tangent. Before you ask yourself what the world will be like, ask yourself what the world should be like. Find out what it is you want to do, and go for it. If money is the only goal, there are better money making opportunities than the pegasos. I know that 95% of everyone here is motivated by more than money, so then we move on... what should the world be like, and how are we going to get there. Btw, don't just jump by certain statements that Pegasos can surf the internet. OK, it can, technically do that, but its not even close to being the internet experience that consumers take for granted. If BBRV may have some insights into the future, but appears at times to be purposely blind to the present. The pegasos and MorphOS, are not ideal candidates to do the job. Internet surfing is lousy, as Ray mentioned security is lousy, the user experience is un-refined and clumsy. The os is buggy and crashes a lot. I have no problem with MorphOS, if its a beginning effort, every effort has a beginning, a start, and thats no criticism...but an effort to do what? an effort to ruin the computer revolution and turn the masses into unthinking lumps of consumerism. I'll pass on that part. With that said... micro purchases are a legitimate phenomena that DOES help people. Maybe we need a real salesman to show how it helps people, instead of constantly talking about how it will help the greedy get rich. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 25 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Bill Hoggett on 13-Jan-2004 15:47 GMT In reply to Comment 24 (MarkTime): > With that said... micro purchases are a legitimate phenomena > that DOES help people. Yes, but that's not the problem. The problem is having mechanisms that not only automate micro purchases but enforce them. How long before the providers of services that rely on micro purchases start refusing to make their services available to systems which also allow free alternatives? IMHO, not very long at all. I think we should be looking to listen to people who can suggest ways in which both solutions and strategies are allowed and encouraged to co-exist, not those who are just looking to secure their slice of the pie at any cost. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 26 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Sigbjørn Skjæret on 13-Jan-2004 16:03 GMT In reply to Comment 16 (Alan LM Buxey): "3) wrong. the Norwegian decision was that it isnt wrong to bypass the CSS protection to PLAY the DVD. dont read any more into it than that." Well, that ruling is based on previous law which says you are entitled to personal copies, so technically it *does* mean you are allowed to rip a DVD .. however you are *not* allowed to distribute that copy... - CISC BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 27 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by kalmar on 13-Jan-2004 16:12 GMT Jesus. There's so little happening that the topic with the most posts in the last few days is a *second-hand* and *off-topic* post from the head of a *rival* company who has *left* this forum. Depressing. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 28 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Senex on 13-Jan-2004 17:33 GMT In reply to Comment 20 (Anonymous): And now the blue trolls are jumping up and down of joy from hearing the same things from Buck. I don't know for "the blue trolls", but among the Pegasos users in general I'd rather expect just a minority to be excited about bbrv's plans. Given the upcoming 1984-technologies, I see the Pegasos' niche clearly in offering a free platform as an alternative. Looking at the typical customers for the current boards - Amiga nostalgics, Linux freaks and users of other non-mainstream OS -, these people certainly could be rather described as independent minds, "rebols", who would prefer to defend freedom over accepting even the slightest restriction of doing what they want to do. And looking at the credit card and TV-surf ideas, I can only agree with those who already pointed out that these visions are way too US-centric and won't apply this way to european users. Also regarding that I mentioned in the previous paragraph - there certainly has been a reason that alternative computer systems (Amiga back then, Linux and others today) have been and still are comparatively popular here in Europe. So either Genesi picks us freedom-loving european potential customers up - or someone else will do it. Furthermore, to be honest, I wonder how Genesi could be going to become a success if they already fail to correctly judge the - comparatively close to the US one - european market! What about even the arabian and asian markets? Especially since Genesi certainly would have big chances there if they would much more stress that they are in fact a european company. So instead of focusing on the US-market that much, they should rather think about how to gain a profit from the given more or less disliking of the USA in all the rest of the world. And the same applies to the european market, of course - since finally some european countries start wanting to emancipate themselves from the USA, Genesi should try to serve this - by offering tailor-made european solutions from a european company to the EU and the further european market. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 29 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by MarkTime on 13-Jan-2004 19:44 GMT In reply to Comment 28 (Senex): yes, more good points senex. The fact is, there is a market in creative thinkers. I consumer market among the creative types. Creative types have the potential to be almost everyone. Look at Apple's GarageBand. Apple keeps hitting the mark. Genesi hasn't even captured the market that it is closest too, and already feels the need to move on. This pie in the sky stuff isn't realistic. They need to capture the market staring them in the face, and when that opportunity runs out, go for the next one. But, that is really there business now. I probably shouldn't have gone there. I wish them luck, but even iMovie, GarageBand, PhotoShop, Lightwave, they are only the beginnings of what computers will do someday. genesi is talking about the beginnings of what an atm machine might be someday. two different things. Nothing wrong with making plumbing widgets for a living, or anything else, its just not real interesting. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 30 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Nowee on 13-Jan-2004 20:03 GMT In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous): Sorry, I'm french and i can tell you that everybody in France or spain uses credit cards for everything. Plus, it doesn't cost that much, like 10 euro per yer or so. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 31 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by DoomMaster on 13-Jan-2004 22:14 GMT This is stupid! _DoomMaster_ BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 32 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Atheist2 on 14-Jan-2004 03:55 GMT In reply to Comment 23 (Zylesea): > Chose freedom! What I am looking forward to is a web browser where I could load up my web space with files in the AmigaOS formats, and it would read/display them. internet explorer, or mozilla, netscape, other... come around and can't read/display these, so what! Most of the internet is file retrival, so, we can have our own plane! (Reference to Advanced Dungeons and Dragons :-D ) AmigaOne! AOS4.0! Software freedom is TRUE freedom! BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 33 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by gary_c on 14-Jan-2004 05:10 GMT In reply to Comment 29 (MarkTime): Apple keeps hitting the mark. Genesi hasn't even captured the market that it is closest too, and already feels the need to move on. The plan has always been to move on, regardless of how much of the Amiga market has been captured. No company can survive within this tiny market, and it'd be suicidal to hang around here trying to do that, given the large number of, uh, "iconoclasts" here. This pie in the sky stuff isn't realistic. They need to capture the market staring them in the face, and when that opportunity runs out, go for the next one. Again, if you mean the "Amiga market," for one thing, it's total size is just too small for it to be worth focusing on to the exclusion of other markets. If Genesi can put out a product that will sell to this market *and* to other alt-OS users, then they'll get closer to a viable level of sales without wasting their marketing energy any more than they have to. For another thing, there are a lot of people in this market who'll never buy a Genesi product no matter what, so it's pointless to spend more time trying to pursuade them. In the big picture, they aren't a significant factor anyhow (speaking in terms of numbers). The Pegasos is already available (more or less, as production and distribution ramp up), so Genesi has a product for the post-Amiga, alt-OS desktop market. But they also have to look for bigger fish to fry, to leverage the time and money they've already invested. There's nothing wrong with getting a longer-term vision together; in fact any company that doesn't take the long view is probably going to be unprepared for whatever happens when their current market/product cycle runs its course. Just because they're thinking about various business models doesn't mean the shorter-term stuff, like Pegasos sales, MorphOS development, nurturing of other OSs on the Pegasos, etc. are going to be forgotten. -- gary_c BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 34 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Daniel Miller on 14-Jan-2004 05:46 GMT In reply to Comment 4 (Raffaele): Raffaele says: > -Multiple embedded services (built into computer solid die) in offer from > third parties. Services which need duty of charges automatically performed > by the computer which picks money ***automatically*** from our credit card > to pay it all. > A sure reason not to buy such a computer. It depends on what you mean by "automatically." People would not stand for an online payments systems that took money from them without their approval. What is coming I think is a more seamless interface to buying stuff with a credit card. In other words you just click a button and it goes based on that. And then people might routinely buy stuff online that they don't necessarily think of buying online now, like an episode of a TV show or the latest song from their favorite artist or a little game. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 35 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Daniel Miller on 14-Jan-2004 05:53 GMT In reply to Comment 16 (Alan LM Buxey): Alan Buxey says: > ..and which bits of this post were from Bill, and which bits werent > spoken by him. wasnt clear at all Yeah well, I thought people would click on "read more" and it would be obvious that it was all written by BBRV. So sue me. All of the ANN article was written by BBRV except for the 20 words at the beginning where I said "so and so posted on some mailing lists..." BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 36 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Daniel Miller on 14-Jan-2004 06:03 GMT In reply to Comment 33 (gary_c): gary_c says: > The Pegasos is already available (more or less, as production and > distribution ramp up), so Genesi has a product for the post-Amiga, > alt-OS desktop market. But they also have to look for bigger fish > to fry, to leverage the time and money they've already invested. > There's nothing wrong with getting a longer-term vision together; > in fact any company that doesn't take the long view is probably > going to be unprepared for whatever happens when their current > market/product cycle runs its course. Ahaha! In this market that point occurred eight or so years ago. ;) > Just because they're thinking about various business models > doesn't mean the shorter-term stuff, like Pegasos sales, MorphOS > development, nurturing of other OSs on the Pegasos, etc. are > going to be forgotten. This communique attests to that, that Genesi sees development of the current Pegasos-MorphOS product as a route to establishing a proprietary solution. So it is all good in my opinion. Another reason I think it was worthwhile to post here is because they talked a bit about CES 2004. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 37 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Amon_Re on 14-Jan-2004 07:24 GMT In reply to Comment 30 (Nowee): It's true that creditcards are more widely spread in France then, eg, in Belgium. But would you entrust your computer with it? ;) Cheers BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 38 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Amon_Re on 14-Jan-2004 07:27 GMT In reply to Comment 34 (Daniel Miller): Well, i would flatly refuse to pay for a download of a TV episode or whatsoever, i'd prefer to get *outside* of the house, visit a music or movie chain and buy the DVD dox, and then hit the nearest pub ;) The only things i've ever paid for online were AMP and some other shareware programs Cheers BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 39 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Raffaele on 14-Jan-2004 11:56 GMT In reply to Comment 34 (Daniel Miller): Mr Daniel Miller wrote: >It depends on what you mean by "automatically." >People would not stand for an online payments systems >that took money from them without their approval. This is why I said: >> -Multiple embedded services (built into computer solid die) >> in offer from third parties. >> Services which need duty of charges automatically performed >> by the computer >> A sure reason not to buy such a computer. Ok I will explain it more simply... We have dealing with dedicated computers no? This is the meaning of all our discussion, the future as BBRV described... Imagine a computer aimed at Set top box market... Right? With these new technologies built in... For strict example a chip into it, which performs to provide support for tv-pools. TV pools are made by sending telephone calls and SMSes. This will mean that "the common user" will vote, and he will charged the amount a phone call or the amount of an sms. And if you don't provide an advice which tells the user he will be charged the amount of a phone call... ...then I call it a fraud. And I will fight versus this kind of future. A future in which the user will be charged for every choice he made without having the right not to choose certain services... ...or in which he is not informed he will pay for them. And this only an example. Imagine the chip is set to provide a very big number of services... And that these services are sold to different companies... If you do not have the list of the services provided by charge, and you can't examine the tariffs... Then this system sure will drain out all your money cash... >What is coming I think is a more seamless interface >to buying stuff with a credit card. >In other words you just click a button and it goes based on that. Sure this is a normal evolution in payments. Clear, simple and user-friendly. A friendly future I prefer more than the future I explained in my example. And I hope we will move in that direction... >And then people might routinely buy stuff online >that they don't necessarily think of buying online now, >like an episode of a TV show or the latest song from >their favorite artist or a little game. No we are not dealing ONLY at buy-online. We are talking of multiple services and not necessary included all into computers, set-top-boxes and dedicated devices. We are talking for example of radio based credit cards. You walk thru a street, you notice some stuff you want into a shop, You pick your credit card and click on it... then the purchase will be send at your home, and the credit card was charged automatically... And this is a friendly example. Instead of that... Imagine now you walking thru a street... You notice a promo or a movie-demo in a shop window... You stop to see it... Then you go your home and when checking your bank account, you will discover you have been charged automatically for the viewing of that promo... This sure will be a fraud. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 40 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 14-Jan-2004 12:37 GMT In reply to Comment 30 (Nowee): Same for Scandinavia, and I have used bank cards and credit cards all over Europe for almost a decade. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 41 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by MarkTime on 14-Jan-2004 18:04 GMT @gary_c, well ultimately we dont' disagree on a whole lot. I would never suggest that Genesi needs to get the 5000 or so people (or whatever the number) of people using classic amiga's and then keep selling to them over and over again.... I agree, there are no number there. I mean more like the market by consumer's of exotic toys, the hobbyist market, for powerpc motherboards. I regard that market as being potentially huge, though unknown. I'm talking about more of the 'home computing' type market. People used to hook up comptuers to their keyboards (midi, well they still do)...but to their robots, to their train sets, to put the computer inside a 1920's RCA radio, to make a radio from transistors.... back when computing was still young and fun. People still want to do that, some people, they want the fun. A large part of that market, doesn't own an amiga anymore, they own PC's and Macintoshes, but some of them own amigas, for certain. Well, I don't want to go too far down the line in trying to tell genesi exactly what to do. But, in my posting of observations, selling a PowerPC motherboard to a geek, someone who was exactly looking for an exotic computer, is something very 'close to home' so to speak, the pegasos natural market right now, and it isn't fully exploited. the type of people who would have bought a bebox are not necessarily aware of the pegasos yet. the type of people who put together a heathkit, mostly unaware. BUT, it takes time, and they are doing what they can...so I will back off appearing as hostile and critical, when I'm not hostile and I'm not predicting their failure at all...over time I think we will see continued growth into their natural market. Now, as for calling some of this talk pie-in-the-sky...what I mean by that remark is that while some of this talk is very true, about trends in the market place..security concerns, this is stuff that is not close to home, very far away from what MorphOS is.... its hard to make a case for MorphOS as a secure OS, as Ray said... it doesn't have the secure underpinnings of other's OS's, its a fairly basic OS. Some things are just wording. I think its possible to lay out a vision for micropayments, where we see that the interests of artists are protected, the interests of the consumer are expanded. The ability to by one photo of your book, instead of having to pay thousands for the whole darn collection of photo's that it happens to be in, is great. to buy one song, not the whole album. Whatever hits home best, to make the point. But when it appears, as it certainly did among many, even me, that this is about 'loss of control' and whisking away funds into corporate conglomerates... then you can see the mistake in marketing. I believe micropayments are a legitimate phenomena, for the good. and will work for the individual, not just the elite. but, as you stated, we are just a few crackpots here, we can work out the snafu's in the message here, and when you go out to the larger audience, see how the message (and the true focus of your efforts, not just the message)...could be tweaked so that it is all about helping increase choices, and not about removing choice. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 42 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by MarkTime on 14-Jan-2004 18:32 GMT ya'll before you all go concluding I'm a complete lunatic, don't forget a lot of this is called 'brainstorming'...some ideas are good, some fanciful, use it for what it is. but about expanding upon the natural market: How many people in the PIC Microcontroller community have considered the pegasos as an option insteead? How many in the home robotics community, understand the pegasos is a good choice to power their bots? How many people in the model train community, understand the pegasos is the choice for a computerized hub? you know, I sort of, barely remember, in the early days of computing when the world was new, and the sun shined just a bit brighter, that comptuers were for everything. Remember the X-10? How many people know the pegasos, is a great choice for a custom built home security system. For saving them power by turning the lights off automatically when they are on vacation. OK< I'm done. The natural market is being IGNORED, and you are chasing PIE IN THE SKY. I'm right, you are wrong. tpthhhehhftlllth....OK I'M KIDDING THIS IS ME MARKTIME YOU KNOW I'M A NUTCASE BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 43 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Nowee on 14-Jan-2004 21:32 GMT In reply to Comment 37 (Amon_Re): I often afford stuff through the web using my credit card, and even have a specific bank account for that, that would really make my day shiny if it was hacked provided the fair amount of money they would flood me with as a compensation. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 44 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by gary_c on 15-Jan-2004 06:37 GMT In reply to Comment 42 (MarkTime): ya'll before you all go concluding I'm a complete lunatic, don't forget a lot of this is called 'brainstorming'...some ideas are good, some fanciful, use it for what it is. but about expanding upon the natural market: How many people in the PIC Microcontroller community have considered the pegasos as an option insteead? Well, it isn't really an option yet. Anyway, not with MorphOS. Seems to me it's still getting up to speed, equivalent to other OSs. How many in the home robotics community, understand the pegasos is a good choice to power their bots? Is it? How many people in the model train community, understand the pegasos is the choice for a computerized hub? you know, I sort of, barely remember, in the early days of computing when the world was new, and the sun shined just a bit brighter, that comptuers were for everything. Remember the X-10? How many people know the pegasos, is a great choice for a custom built home security system. For saving them power by turning the lights off automatically when they are on vacation. OK I'm done. The natural market is being IGNORED, and you are chasing PIE IN THE SKY. Actually both that "pie in the sky" market and the geek/computer enthusiast market are a ways off, as far as the Pegasos is concerned. It lacks some basic details before it can be sold to either one, and maybe the digital downloads market is actually even closer because a lot of work is being expended in that direction, that maybe Genesi can jump into. But one thing is that market is potentially much larger than the computer tinkerer market. Most people are consumers, not creators, so that's where the money is. I think the computer geek market is also a natural one for Genesi, but I wonder how big the payoff would be. I hope they push this direction, too, because that's why most of us are interested, but it's harder to make a compelling business case in this area. There are some people, like Amiga and some BeOS users, who are kind of into PowerPC hardware naturally and would buy it without persuasion, but for everyone else there has to be a sales pitch and some clear product advantages. What are these, regarding the Pegasos, concerning home computing, robots, model train controls, or whatever, as you mentioned? Somebody is going to have to develop them and publicize them. I don't really know what Genesi has in mind regarding the media/distribution market. I see there are big players elbowing each other toward some goal, but I'm not sure how Genesi or any small outfit can cash in. But presumeably if they develop solutions for that market, their products will also benefit for other markets. That is, better media performance (a modern web browser even) would also increase the appeal of Pegasos to techies who want to build robots or control train sets. But the baby has to learn to walk before it can decide where to go. I'm right, you are wrong. tpthhhehhftlllth....OK I'M KIDDING THIS IS ME MARKTIME YOU KNOW I'M A NUTCASE Yep, you definitely lost it there. ;-) Don't worry; you'll probably swing back into coherency fairly soon. :-) -- gary_c BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 45 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by MarkTime on 15-Jan-2004 17:37 GMT In reply to Comment 44 (gary_c): OK, you make a good case for your position. as for coherency, I'm proud to say I sometimes hit that target. But, yes, the pegasos is a better choice for a Robot than a PIC or Stamp microcontroller, in some cases. The reason for this, is only because real computers are a better choice on the high end, over those darn microcontrollers. You know, really. Serious. These bots go into the thousands of dollars to build, they need a real brain. Thats my opinion, but its true. Maybe I wouldn't pick a pegasos either. But you know, maybe I would. If someone else did it. Why do people keep picking Stamp and PIC over and over again...cause someone else did it. This type of lemming behaviour could be the opportunity for genesi. but I picked markets, quite purposely, where it can't be said the software isn't there yet....I tried to anticipate, at least part of what you are saying. I picked markets where you don't sell the software....I'll try to jump back to coherency, but PIC isn't in the robotics business, neither is stamp....but in the robotics busines PIC and Stamp is sold. These are markets where the engineer buying the parts, knows that it doesn't come preprogrammed for their application. They do it themselves. Its a custom built thing...per project thing. That way, pegasos is ready....why, cause it has a development environment and specs. Thats all you need for these markets, are the tools. That makes these type of geek markets easy to reach. I tried to think of a list, x.10, home security, swim meet timers, home robotics, battle robots, train enthusiasts, environmental control systems... all markets are small, but actually, bigger than amiga market, I think, each one of them. And small is good sometimes. Microsoft isn't gunning for these markets, heck, even the linux fans have only barely noticed them. Genesi doesn't actually need expertise in these fields, doesn't need software ready to go... what they need is mindshare. When the engineer goes to buy, they need to realize on the high end project (and these are hobbyist engineers)..they need a full CPU to really rock. And by the way, it may seem like a small market, but this market built a little company called Radio Shack. It's not so small, even if Radio Shack mostly sells crap r/c toy cars and overpriced knick knacks.... they still built themselves up catering to this huge market, in the beginning. BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 46 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by DarkHorse on 16-Jan-2004 14:13 GMT http://www.electricnews.net/print.html?code=9387484 The head of the digital household Friday, January 16 2004 by Matthew Clark In less than a decade, televisions, DVD players, stereos and just about every other home entertainment device will be wirelessly linked to a PC, as the so-called Digital Home comes to pass. This is the inevitable future of home entertainment, if the likes of Microsoft and Intel get their way. Their simple vision is almost too perfect: a home where all Consumer Electronics (CE) devices deal entirely in digital content, allowing the PC to act as the ultimate remote control. In this CE utopia, users can manage music, movies and pictures with the click of mouse, routing entertainment to screens and speakers throughout the home. All that's needed are compatible devices, the right software, a home network and a broadband connection. "It all makes perfect sense," explains Forrester senior analyst Paul Jackson. "Everything is digital now, it's just a question of how much data it is." Jackson refers to the fact that digital TV has made significant inroads, while still pictures, music and movies are already delivered in digital formats on CDs and DVDs, or in computer files with monikers like MP3, JPEG, Windows Media or MPEG, to name but a few. The transition to digital means that computers can read, save, process and redirect films and music in the same way they would with e-mail or Word documents. More significantly, the all-important technology that can link disparate devices has arrived in the form of Wi-Fi, or 802.11, which has been widely deployed in offices for networking and in public "hotspots" for fast Internet access. It's widely supported, inexpensive and, best of all, it's wireless, making it a snap to roll out. So, where is Microsoft's place in the Digital Home? Unsurprisingly, it's right in the centre. At the recent Consumer Electronics Show (CES), the company launched its new Windows Media Center Connect technology and its Windows Media Center Extender technology, which serve as the cerebral cortex of the digital home. Meanwhile, partners like HP and Gateway have come on board to provide the Microsoft-powered TVs needed for the mix. The fact is, most other one-time computer-centric firms see the future in much the same way. Intel, for example, has put up some hard cash to help make the Digital Home vision a reality, promising USD200 million in venture capital over the next three years for start-ups developing Digital Home technologies. Dell, meanwhile, has launched its own flat-screen TVs, portable music players and music-managing software, while Motorola has also has lent its name to a new TV. Still have your doubts? It's worth bearing in mind that the list members of the Digital Home Working Group, an industry body, reads like a who's who of the computer industry. Microsoft, Intel, HP, Gateway, Fujitsu, IBM, NEC and STMicroelectronics are all members, as are traditional CE companies like Sony, Philips, Kenwood, Panasonic, Samsung, Sharp and Thomson. But there are potential roadblocks. Some experts have forecast a battle between the likes of Philips and Sony on one side, and Microsoft and Intel on the other, with both groups fighting to determine what will be core to the Digital Home -- a PC, or the CE devices themselves. However, IDC analyst Armitage says that the existence of the Digital Home Working Group is itself testament to the fact that all the companies have the same ultimate goal. A bigger problem is the lack of standards, particularly networking standards, to make all the devices work together. Currently, there are three separate and competing Wi-Fi standards that aren't entirely interoperable. But even if your TV and Hi-Fi can talk, they'll need to speak the same language and so software conflicts will need to be resolved as well. It would seem that putting the same software in everything would solve the issue, but many are frightened by the prospect of all CE devices running on the same code, probably Microsoft's. Armitage, however, doesn't see this as a real threat, at least not in the short term, noting that "Microsoft still has a long way to go." "People also don't upgrade their TVs or Hi-Fis that often, maybe every 10 years," adds Forrester's Jackson. "They need a good reason to get a new one, and Wi-Fi won't be enough." That's a major contrast to the three- to five-year upgrade cycle in the computer industry, and it is something that Intel, Microsoft & co will have to come to grips with. It's also important to remember that earlier Digital Home predictions never panned out. Intel's "Web Tablet" and its Home RF wireless networking protocol, as well as its entire Connected Products Division, were consigned to history by 2002 and Microsoft, for its part, largely failed in its effort to turn WebTV into a bankable product. Still, even Jackson estimates that mass-market uptake of the Digital Home will arrive by 2008 or 2009 in Europe, and much sooner in America. Who will be the head of the digital household is anyone's guess, however BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 47 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Alan LM Buxey on 17-Jan-2004 14:11 GMT In reply to Comment 35 (Daniel Miller): I *always* 'read more' or RTFA. the first paragraph was in quotations, the rest was not... so there was some unclarity there. >So sue me. hmmm, written invitations to such action arent wise ;-) alan BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 48 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by Alan LM Buxey on 17-Jan-2004 14:16 GMT ..and this week, Warp Records have stuck up a big middle finger to the rest of the music establishment. a big big no to DRM. they've released huge swathes of their catalogue for online purchase. 205kbps VBR encoded (with LAME no less!) and with no DRM. interested int heir stuff? Bleep is their online shop. I just got a batch of LFO stuff. alan BBRV Communique: Decisions : Comment 49 of 49 ANN.lu Posted by hammer on 18-Jan-2004 22:08 GMT >The general purpose PC *is* finished. There’s not much movement in the ISV and distribution chain in regards to "general purpose PC *is* finished". MS Windows Longhorn runs on the current X86 PCs (just make sure the PC has enough processing power). >What you WILL see next is CPRM and many new proprietary devices, proprietary >interfaces, copy protection, and limited functionality designed to do just >that. (SNIP) There’s nothing new in MS Windows and MacOS X's proprietary nature. Note that the mainstream MS Windows operating system evolution will be from MS Windows Anvil (AMD64) then MS Windows Longhorn. Please recall dotNET’s design goals. "Copy protection" schemes already exists for some of expensive applications** and most games**. **3DSMax5, Unreal 2, Need for Speed Underground, Unreal Tournament 2003, X2 "The Threat", Warcraft III, Homeworld 2 and 'etc'. Paying via credit for PC rentals schemes already exist in PC rental schemes in Australia. There’s nothing new in that regard. For subscription based services refer to Lindows and MSDN examples. Anonymous, there are 49 items in your selection

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