| [Rant] Pegasos "too cheap" rumours debunked | ANN.lu |
| Posted on 24-Jul-2004 12:37 GMT by Johan Rönnblom | 68 comments
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For some time now, rumours that the Pegasos is sold at a cheaper price than
production cost have been frequent in some circles. Recently, these claims
were brought out into the open and could quickly be shown to be based upon
incorrect assumptions about the Pegasos hardware.
For some time now, rumours that the Pegasos is sold at a cheaper price than
production cost have been frequent in some circles. In this
thread well known AmigaOS4 contributor Stefan Burström brought the rumour
out into the open claiming: "The USERS of a cheap, subsidised
mainboard are happy because they have cheap hardware. However, they did not
pay the actual cost of the hardware. [...] The Pegasos users may be happy
for a short while the Pegasos is cheap, but the truth is that it doesn't
finance itself."
He later clarified himself to speak only about the Pegasos 1: "Well, I was
refering to Pegasos 1 since that is the only board I have made any homework
on, so don't put any words in my mouth I didn't speak.", "I brought it up
simply because this 'subsidised' discussion has been here before so I
decided to do some homework. On _that_ board. I have no information on the
Pegasos II so I decided not to discus it. Simple eh?" and "I insist on it
because I am not claiming that the Pegasos 2 is
subsidised. Simple eh? This whole subsidised story started with
the Pegasos 1 and back then I supported it and did some homework."
Stefan supported his claims by stating that he had experience in the field:
"Oh, btw, a part of my professional job is to design cost effective
consumer electronics, so I think I have a fair amont of knowledge of the
actual costs associated with PCB manufacturing."
He then claimed that based upon his calculations of the Pegasos mainboard
PCB cost, the machine must be too expensive to make:
"I started out with the PCB to get a starting point of the discussion.
[...] I find it hard to believe that a board like this would have a PCB
with a cost of 1/3th of the total BOM [Bill Of Materials]."
He explained that his guess was based mainly of his estimate of the PCB
cost: "I started building a BOM way back yes. I guess I still have
the draft somewhere on my old A4K. I never got that far as checking prices
for the more advanced chips though." and "But fwiw, I
calculated the PCB cost now just because it was the easiest one to do with
most chance of getting accurate prices even 2 years back. For the NB, SB,
Ethernet Phy, AC97 etc. it would have been much harder to find the accurate
numbers which I started to look up way back."
Stefan's estimate of the mainboard PCB cost: "Right but it is still a ~100
sq inch PCB. 6 or 8 layers I'd guess. Microvias between layer 1-2 and 7-8
to be able to route the BGA's. A small scale production run of such a PCB
easily reaches 100 USD per board. And that is before the startup costs for
the PCB fab is distributed on the boards." and later clarified that "The
expensive part is the micro via layer, not the actual # of the layer it
goes through."
The inclusion of a the cost for a micro via layer did not come from
knowledge about the Pegasos 1 board, however: "I havn't seen anything
but pictures of a Pegasos so I havn't been able to inspect the
boards."
Instead, he motivated it by referring to his stated knowledge about PCB design:
"Nope, since I know that the Artica is a 492 pin BGA with a ballpitch of
around 1.27 mm. Further more, the southbridge is is most likely as similar
package as the VT82C686 (I have the datasheet here) which also has
ballpitch of 1.27mm. Given a track width of 5 mils and clearance of 5 mils
that would make it impossible to route using only through hole vias.
Convinced yet?"
However, the fact is that the Pegasos (1 and 2) boards have six layers,
that the area is 63 square inches rather than 100, and that they do not
have any expensive micro vias.
Thus, it seems that the rumours that the Pegasos 1 (and Pegasos 2, even if
Stefan is not among those making that claim) is based on incorrect
assumptions about the Pegasos hardware.
Finally, I'd like to give Stefan some credit for having the guts to bring
this up in public, rather than keeping it "behind the scenes" where these
claims are seldom questioned and are quickly accepted as facts by many
people.
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| Pegasos "too cheap" rumours debunked : Comment 44 of 68 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by AdmV0rl0n on 25-Jul-2004 11:30 GMT | In reply to Comment 42 (Johan Rönnblom):
Admvorlon: You assume a lot of things. First, you assume that Thendic
would, at any point in time, have had any sort of ownership of the
Pegasos designs.
----
Prove they did not.
----
Now, that would have depended entirely upon the details of their
contracts with bPlan. I have no inside knowledge about this, but I
doubt Thendic were involved with that. They were always the marketing
side, not the design and production side. They are likely to have
owned any *marketing* related stuff. Well, they owned the boards they
were re-selling of course, but they sold all those boards long before
their bankruptcy, nothing fishy there.
You doubt that Thedic have anything to do with a contract they had with bPlan. Thats interesting.
----
Then, you assume that, even if such an ownership would have existed,
bPlan or Genesi have not re-aquired that from the Thendic bankruptcy.
As I don't think Thendic had any ownership here, I'm not surprised
that I haven't heard about any such deal, but really, I don't think I
would have heard about it even if it did happen.
What you think is irrelevant.
---
You also seem to lack a basic grasp of how things like ownership are
decided. If company A markets a product from company B, and then
company A goes bankrupt, it is not the case that company A would have
some sort of ownership in company B's products, or that company C
would have to pay the bankrupt company A in order to continue
marketing of said products. That's just total nonsense.
No, that depends entirly on the real issues, not your idea of what those issues are.
---
You also claim that Thendic would have paid for the *production*, not
just the design, of products someone else is now selling. Well that's
something I can refute right away, as all boards produced under
Thendic were sold out.
No, what I said was different, but so what, I can hardly explain to someone who is brainwarped and unable to understand what was said.
---
Frankly, you seem to base your accusations on absolutely nothing (snip)
Well, I've long since stopped worrying what you come up with.
---
Anyway, if you have some facts pointing towards improper conduct here,
I think you should send them to the Liquidator for Thendic.
Oh I think a business may well be able to carry all this through 'by the book', and comply with whatever rules and regulations, but thats not the issue. The issue is the possible subsidy in development and production of the Pegasos range of machines. If you are incapable of understanding this, then you are more stupid than I can cater for.
I have a simple example for you to understand.
When under Thendic, fairly considerable sums were spent in development, testing, production.
That money was not available any other way than a subsidised influx of funding.
Now under Genesi, there is clearly no subsidy. And clearly they are limping along on a minimum of ability to spend funds.
Thedic-France went bankrupt with how much debt? And how much of this money was piped into the Pegasos programs, developments, production. |
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