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[News] Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewedANN.lu
Posted on 02-Feb-2000 08:38 GMT by Christian Kemp29 comments
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John Chandler and Czech publication Amiga Review interviewed Greenboy, the Phoenix "facilitator at large". You can read the first part here, there will be three more parts over the next three weeks.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 1 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Chandler on 01-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
Hope everyone can hold out for all four parts, there's some good stuff coming along in the later parts which I think everyone will be interested to hear about. :-)
Due to the size, and the fact Suite101.com impose a rough limit of 800-1000 words, it had to be published this way online. Not ideal... I'll try and arrange a complete version to be published elsewhere online in the near future.
Many thanks to greenboy (learn the origin of greenboy's name in the final installment) and co-interrogator Andrej Bunta.
John
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 2 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Teemu I. Yliselš on 01-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
John:
When was this interview conducted?
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 3 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by anon on 01-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (John Chandler):
Greenboy is a boring pompous windbag, it is disapointing that suite101 has
given the bag credibility by publishing the wind. The further such
miserable wastes of times are kept away from Amiga development, the
better.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 4 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by anon on 01-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (John Chandler):
Greenboy is a boring pompous windbag, it is disapointing that suite101 has
given the bag credibility by publishing the wind. The further such
miserable wastes of times are kept away from Amiga development, the
better.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 5 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by OrangeBoy on 01-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
Wow, I'm sure many people here will love to see themselves defined
"Gatemiga sycophants" just for not having shared some people's
chronic pessimism at a time when there was no evident reason
not to trust Amiga Inc.
A lot of people trusted them in good faith, since they WERE showing
good signs. After all, not everyone can have inside information.
I could understand these people being called "misled", maybe even
"naive". But "sycophants"? This is downright offensive.
How arrogant. These guys still have to work a LOT on Public Relations...
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 6 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 01-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (anon):
Anon (what, are you afraid to mouth off such an asshole opinion and give your real name?),
I see no reason for you to be so personally insulting. If you don't agree with what greenboy is doing, fine, but why do you feel the need to be so rude.
How about instead of slinging some mud, you do something constructive. If you can't do that, at least don't be so rude.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 7 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 01-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (OrangeBoy):
>Wow, I'm sure many people here will love to see themselves defined
>"Gatemiga sycophants" just for not having shared some people's
>chronic pessimism at a time when there was no evident reason
>not to trust Amiga Inc.
I didn't interpret greenboy as defining you or anyone in particular as "Gatemiga sycophants". Quoting more, he says, "some ICOA members and other assorted Gatemiga sycophants were quite hostile to our ideas and our presence (probably still are)". That is, some ICOA members, and others were "Gateway sycophants" and were hostile to Phoenix ideas and presence.
By this, I think he is not refering to people who just "trusted them [Gateway]in good faith", but instead to people who "were hostile to Phoenix ideas and presence", just due to the fact that it wasn't Gateway, and didn't buy into Gateway. See tha difference? :)
>How arrogant. These guys still have to work a LOT on Public Relations...
Arrogant? I wouldn't go that far. As your apparent misunderstanding shows though (or do you disagree?), they could stand to be more clear when they speak.
Mike
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 8 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mario Saitti on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (anon):
> Greenboy is a boring pompous windbag, it is disapointing that suite101 has
> given the bag credibility by publishing the wind. The further such
> miserable wastes of times are kept away from Amiga development, the
> better.
Then you can explain Phoenix to everyone then? We truly need to understand Phoenix and it's goals as written by someone who has never seen the Phoenix business model thus has no idea what Phoenix is about...
Mario
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 9 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mario Saitti on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (OrangeBoy):
> Wow, I'm sure many people here will love to see themselves defined
> "Gatemiga sycophants" just for not having shared some people's
> chronic pessimism at a time when there was no evident reason
> not to trust Amiga Inc.
And I am sure greenboy is impressed by the number of people who took that remark to mean themelves:) The gatemiga sycophants know who they are and what they did to be labelled so.
> A lot of people trusted them in good faith, since they WERE showing
> good signs. After all, not everyone can have inside information.
> I could understand these people being called "misled", maybe even
> "naive". But "sycophants"? This is downright offensive.
Only if you are one of them:) The statement refers to folks who did everything they could to oppose the rebellion forming against Amiga under Gateway, people who knew Amiga was blowing smoke but pretended things were great. For instance there were people who knew Amiga was not the MMC, and thus knew Jim Collas had not been entirely honest. Yet they were willing to lie about this in the hope of being employed by Amiga inc at the expense of others.
There were people who knew Jim Collas was under fire from Gateway, and was going to be removed from the picture entirely. Yet they continued to lie about the situation. It was known they were lying, but noone could not speak about it, since they had to preserve the anonymity of the souces within Amiga. They are the Gatemiga Sycophants. Are you one of them:)
> How arrogant. These guys still have to work a LOT on Public Relations
Of course, there is a lot more to be done than just this though.
Mario
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 10 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by anon on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Mike):
Mike,
You actually read some of Greenboy's crap?
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 11 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Chandler on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Teemu I. Yliselš):
The interview was conducted late last month, so it's fairly up-to-date. Having said that, I've learnt from another of Phoenix's main members that there are a few extra things greenboy wasn't aware of until after the interview was conducted. However, these don't detract from the interview - there will be plenty to hear about over the coming months.
John
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 12 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by anon on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Mario Saitti):
Mario,
1) Thanks for the insights into what was going on behind the scenes ar
Gateway's Amiga. I could not see how Amiga was going to get their money back
on the AmigaObjects idea. The replacement cycle on things like TV's are
pretty long, also if anyone can write an AO...
2) Why do we have to understand Phoenix? How much relevance influence does
it have?
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 13 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by anon on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Mario Saitti):
Mario,
1) Thanks for the insights into what was going on behind the scenes ar
Gateway's Amiga. I could not see how Amiga was going to get their money back
on the AmigaObjects idea. The replacement cycle on things like TV's are
pretty long, also if anyone can write an AO...
2) Why do we have to understand Phoenix? How much relevance influence does
it have?
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 14 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by metaljoe@snowcrash.u-net.com on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (anon):
Sorry you feel that way. greenboy is just one person of many involved in Phoenix, and I hope your feelings about him won't cloud any judgement of the pros/cons of the Phoenix route.
I personally found him to be a very approachable, dedicated person with a real passion for the qualities that made, and indeed still make, the Amiga something special. Strong-minded, perhaps, but if that's what it takes to get things done, so be it. The same goes for pretty much all the Phoenix members I've spoken to over the last few months.
John
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 15 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Chandler on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (OrangeBoy):
Well, I admit I was one of those people who, ever the optimist, followed Gateway right up until Collas and McEwen 'left'. I didn't sense that greenboy was targeting those of us who believed what Gateway/Amiga was pushing, more those who were following the line with closed eyes, blindly ignoring other options and dismissing other avenues to often abusive and extreme ways.
My involvement in KOSH lead me to experience that kind of person first-hand - by participating in KOSH, a vocal minority labelled me as a 'traitor' to the Amiga, as if I was abandoning it for something different.
The people the comment was aimed at probably know who they are.
John
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 16 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mario Saitti on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (anon):
> 1 Thanks for the insights into what was going on behind the scenes ar
> Gateway's Amiga. I could not see how Amiga was going to get their money back
> on the AmigaObjects idea. The replacement cycle on things like TV's are
> pretty long, also if anyone can write an AO...
No problem, as was noted, a lot of work needs to be done on public relations, I guess greenboy didn't realise how his statement could be given such a wide interpretation.
> 2) Why do we have to understand Phoenix? How much relevance influence does
> it have?
You don't have to understand Phoenix actually. To be honest most people won't. Most people see Phoenix as something it isn't, and there is no way for us to correct those impressions without revealing our efforts. That would lead to one thing only, failure.
I'm not talking about just showing a machine, or an OS either in partnership with Amiga, QNX or whoever. That aspect is the easy part.
Relevance? That will become increasingly apparent when Phoenix steps out of it's shell. It depends on who you are, what you do, and what you want. If Phoenix offers you something you need, then it is relevant. However as Phoenix matures, and it's IP grows the number of people Phoenix is relevant to will grow.
I'm sorry I have to be so vague, it is the only way things can happen at the moment.
Mario
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 17 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (anon):
In Reply to Comment 6:
>Mike,
>You actually read some of Greenboy's crap?
Way to troll there, buddy!
Again, and not anonymously, I'll just say yes, I do read some of his crap. Maybe you should too :)
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 18 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by clash bowley on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
GreenPeas was all my joy, GreenPeas was my delight...
;>
clash
Flying Mice LLC
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 19 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Detective Bunny on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (clash bowley):
> GreenPeas was all my joy, GreenPeas was my delight...
> ;>
May the shaBaam be Green to you too good sir!
Bunny. MaD
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 20 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 02-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (John Chandler):
As you have noted, John (and to clarify to all): the "sycophant" remark was not aimed at the general public. There were people who went out of their way to place landmines in Phoenix's path early on; these people acted maliciously - perhaps thinking Phoenix a threat to their interests - though Phoenix had no aims to hurt them or their future.
I did not name names, in the interest of proceeding into accord. Because we need to have some general goals in common for *anybody* to best succeed bringing products to market and having a good time of it. But I wished to note that it was not easy to start Phoenix, and that in fact we did have to proceed cautiously. I hoped I had made it clear that only those particular obstructive influences were being referred to.
As to the several remarks about "PR": this was not an exercise in public relations and was not an offical Phoenix announcement that was to go out into the wider world of suits and business. It was a personal interview. As such, I tried to speak candidly and fill people in on the history a bit without sugarcoating.
In a userbase that prides itself on "community" I felt that my honest perceptions were the way to go. And with that, I'll get out of everybody's way and let you all decide at the end of four weeks whether I need further deflating ; }
<--greenboy---<<<
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 21 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 03-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
A lot of the feedback here seems to be based on Greenboy not having been coached. He is letting ideas flow out in a stream of conciousness and hoping that people will pick them out. What Greenboy has to do is clarify his thoughts and make a list of the po
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 22 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 03-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
A lot of the feedback here seems to be based on Greenboy not having been coached. He is letting ideas flow out in a stream of conciousness and hoping that people will pick them out. What Greenboy has to do is clarify his thoughts and make a list of the po
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 23 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 03-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
This all sounds very cosy and nice, but is as close to the truth as Gateway's promises. I am a marketing bod as well as a creative and have worked for/consulted to several computer companies including amiga manufacturers, Commodore UK, Sega and Dell.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 24 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 03-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
This all sounds very cosy and nice, but is as close to the truth as Gateway's promises. I am a marketing bod as well as a creative and have worked for/consulted to several computer companies including amiga manufacturers, Commodore UK, Sega and Dell.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 25 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 03-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
A lot of the feedback here seems to be based on Greenboy not having been
coached. He is letting ideas flow out in a stream of conciousness and hoping
that people will pick them out. What Greenboy has to do is clarify his
thoughts and make a list of the points he wants to make, then make them.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 26 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 03-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
This all sounds very cosy and nice, but is as close to the truth as Gateway's
promises. I am a marketing bod as well as a creative and have worked
for/consulted to several computer companies including amiga manufacturers,
Commodore UK, Sega and Dell. I was asked to join in the marketing
group when the organization was an ideas factory for Gateway.
Unfortunatly I made a comment about food which I did not realise was highly
emotionally charged in a small area of the world. This was taken personally
and I was dropped, despite making humble apologies. From my experience,
I'd say this organization is the personal plaything of the organisers and
that ideas and contributions will be filtered, censored and discarded on the
basis of their personal prejudices.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 27 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mario Saitti on 03-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (John Block):
> This all sounds very cosy and nice, but is as close to the truth as Gateway's
> promises.
Cool thanks John:)
> I am a marketing bod as well as a creative and have worked
> for/consulted to several computer companies including amiga manufacturers,
> Commodore UK, Sega and Dell.
> I was asked to join in the marketing
> group when the organization was an ideas factory for Gateway.
Phoenix has never been a think tank for Gateway.
> Unfortunatly I made a comment about food which I did not realise was highly
> emotionally charged in a small area of the world. This was taken personally
> and I was dropped, despite making humble apologies.
> From my experience,
Phoenix is WIP, until it is fully operational, you have neither been accepted or dropped from anything but a mailing list. What were you doing speaking of food on the Phoenix lists, comparing strategies or just being off topic? I don't recall the incident personally, but if you provoked an incident that led to folks asking to be unsubscribed, then chances are you would be dropped from the lists.
> I'd say this organization is the personal plaything of the organisers and
> that ideas and contributions will be filtered, censored and discarded on the
> basis of their personal prejudices.
This is reality not Utopia. The team responsible for any project is the arbiter of policy until such time when the project becomes self sustaining. This is neither a new or shocking, it is the foundation for project management. What did you think? That we would spend months and hundreds of man hours setting Phoenix up, then willingly allow someone else to cause havoc or tear it down before the infrastructure for self preservation is there?
FYI, we initially tried to be completely open, to let Phoenix flow from the initial membership. The responses we received from folks who could make or break Phoenix at the time, folks like Carl Sassenrath for instance; (basically do it and then let people judge your efforts), changed our attitude. Most developers don't want to build an organisation, they want to belong to one. Point of note, Carl was actually one of the individuals willing to help out where he could.
Phoenix's ultimate goal is to facilitate the viability of developers in a hostile market. That has not and will not change no matter how or by who it is implemented.
Mario.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 28 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 03-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Mario Saitti):
I want to be supportive of any positive force in the Amiga market, however, I suspect, because of the way Phoenix seems to be run, many "developers" will have been excluded.
This is silly and petty but my experience:
1) Mario asks me to take part.
2) I'm eager to help the Amiga and accept.
3) Having been to a Greek restaurant I make a comment about Greek and Turkish food, as Mario is in Cyprus.
4) Big mistake! Mario comes back with political info about Cyprus. 5) I say that I have learnt something and apologise for my ignorance and upsetting him.
6) Tough! I'm out of there, no joining any list, no nothing.
I'm probably probably one of many excluded on personal grounds, which perhaps explains the antagonism and feelings of devision being mentioned.
Greenboy (Phoenix) interviewed : Comment 29 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mario Saitti on 03-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (John Block):
> I want to be supportive of any positive force in the Amiga market, however,
> I suspect, because of the way Phoenix seems to be run, many "developers"
> will have been excluded.
> This is silly and petty but my experience:
> 1) Mario asks me to take part.
> 2) I'm eager to help the Amiga and accept.
> 3) Having been to a Greek restaurant I make a comment about Greek and Turkish > food, as Mario is in Cyprus.
> 4) Big mistake! Mario comes back with political info about Cyprus.
ROTFLOL! That would definately set me off, everyone knows that I am an ultra nationalist who hates Turks and would lambast anyone and exlcude them from anything I am a part of because of their fetish for Turkish foods. NOT!
The fact that I do not remember any of the situation suggests how much weight I have apportioned the entire affair... If you offended me John, it would have been over something far more damning that Turkish cuisine! Mock the refugee status of my grandparents, and you may well set me off, tell me you enjoy Turkish food and I will congratulate you for your excellent taste in cusine!
The reality of the situation is that Cypriot cuisine is based on Turkish cuisine. Any condemnation of Turkish cuisine would be a condemnation of
the food I have been eating since infancy.
> 5) I say that I have learnt something and apologise for my ignorance and
> upsetting him.
Thanks;)
> 6) Tough! I'm out of there, no joining any list, no nothing.
And you think I kept you off a list I am not the admin of? And did this over an argument about food? Are you sure your name isn't James Bond and you are confusing me with Mr Escalamanga? It didn't occur to you that your name might have gotten lost?
> I'm probably probably one of many excluded on personal grounds, which perhaps > explains the antagonism and feelings of devision being mentioned.
Did you ever think to mail me or greenboy to inform us that you were not subscribed, or do you enjoy your Flemmingesque train of thought that much? I cannot believe I gave your original comments credibility that would require any form of explanation. Or that I even bothered writing this reply. But don't worry I have learnt my lesson, this is my final statement to you...
Mario
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