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[Rant] Amiga/Elate programs on other platformsANN.lu
Posted on 13-Feb-2000 10:00 GMT by Christian Kemp14 comments
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Troels Ersking sent a mail which might start an interesting discussion. Basically, he's taking the idea of Amiga games shipping with UAE and therefore running on almost all platforms to the next level... Click below to read his opinion and leave any comments you might have. I remember a guy who some time ago suggested to ship new games with WinUAE so that it could be played on every PC and by that way create a larger market for the Amiga developers. Most people (including me) said it was a crazy idea as WinUAE was running to slow/unstable and needed diffrent configs on diffrent systems.

I have been thinking of it for a while now and if the new OS Elate (or whatever it will be called) is stable and fast enough, why not ship all new Amiga software with the "hosted" version of it on the CD (with some auto install software).

Lets say Amiga Corp. gave the hosted version away for free to registered developers (or got a small royalty:-), then developers would suddenly be able to do a real multiplatform program with a huge potential userbase and increased sale.

At the same time we would have more attention at the new native version of Elate/Amiga and hopefully lots of good software.

The basic thing is that (I guess?) Elate is so small that a normal PC owner would not even notice it was installed with this new multiplatform program/game he just bought.

Could this be a way to get Amiga software to sell in large numbers, from the local shop once again??? What do you think?

Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 1 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Colin Wilson on 12-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
Interesting idea, but wouldn`t that mean the software would have to be written for the lowest common denominator, ie. the slowest machine, thereby limiting it`s appeal to all the tubo-nutter-pc owners out there ?
Who wants Alien Breed 3D when there`s stuff like Unreal Tournament fresh on the market ?
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 2 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Not me on 12-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
If all PCs could run it, it would be no longer "Amiga software",
would it? It would be, in the best of cases, just "software".
Who'd want to buy an Amiga then? Or even just to install the
self-standing version of the new AmigaOS?
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 3 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Olsen on 12-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
Well, UAE can't do Warp3D or PPC emulation. It is dog slow, and shouldn't be used for else than a last attempt on getting an Amiga at work.
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 4 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 12-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Mark Olsen):
It sounds to me like he is saying ship the software with Elate (Amiga/TAO), not UAE.
Since the Amiga/TAO programmers have the source codes to all the custom chips in AMI, I would think that the emulation of old software would be flawless. And it will probably run _much_ better emulations than UAE since the custom chips will be fully implemented in software.
I hope, however, that this won't keep people from developing new Amiga/TAO VP native software, because I think that's the stuff that will really shine. I'd like to see "Deluxe Paint 2000" make it's way to the new OS. Complete with Datatype support, HTML export, Quicktime and Flash import and more! But that's just me.
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 5 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 12-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Mark Olsen):
First a reply to comment 2.
You said that
""If all PCs could run it, it would be no longer "Amiga software"
would it? It would be, in the best of cases, just "software".""
The new Amiga hardware is going to be an ordinary PC (and PPC platform) it WILL NOT be an Amiga as we know it today, because Elate with its virtual Processor stuff(the new AmigaOS) is far more advanced than our old AmigaOS.
My idea was to use Elate's ability to run hosted on top of for example MacOS, ship all new AMIGA/Elate software with it and therby creating a much larger market for the developers, with more and better software as a result.
""Who'd want to buy an Amiga then? Or even just to install the
self-standing version of the new AmigaOS?""
I believe you will never again see any new Amiga hardware (or at least not yet), you just use any PC.
The new OS will maybe be sold in a box together with a supported sound and gfx card, but that will be it.
Current Amiga users like you and me would not need windows/MacOS but would like the more features, stability, speed and faster boot times it would give us to run A native version of AmigaOS/Elate.
And comment 3.
""Well, UAE can't do Warp3D or PPC emulation. It is dog slow, and shouldn't be used for else than a last attempt on getting an Amiga at work.""
I was not talking about UAE on whitch I agree 100%.
I talked about the hosted version of Elate which I believe performs MUCH MUCH better than UAE, as it is not an emulation.
If it is fast enough for gfx intensive games, I guess only time will tell.
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 6 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 12-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
> I remember a guy who some time ago suggested to ship new games with WinUAE so
> that it could be played on every PC and by that way create a larger market
> for the Amiga developers.
That would have been me.. I suggested this regarding to the Classic 68k AmigaOS. There is a huge legacy of good 68k Amiga software. Modern computers have such fast processors they can actually be fast enough to emulate an Amiga at good speeds regardless of their inferior architectures, Bloatware operation systems and a relative slow (to assembly) C based UAE.
> Most people (including me) said it was a crazy idea as WinUAE was running to
> slow/unstable and needed diffrent configs on diffrent systems.
Depends upon what kind of requirements these games have. For instance any A500 game could easily be emulated at full speed on any modern desktop computer. And UAE is stable enough for playing A500 games. The stability of more demanding games will improve as well. A top specs system together with Picasso drivers for 68k AmigaOS is even very usable for doing stuff with Workbench and give acces to the many cool stuff on aminet. Bundle UAE with 68k AmigaOS3.5+ (open sourced?) and you would have a great product for people with Nostalgia and others that want value for their money and like to investigate: "what was so good about the Amiga platform?".
> I have been thinking of it for a while now and if the new OS Elate (or
> whatever it will be called) is stable and fast enough, why not ship all new
> Amiga software with the "hosted" version of it on the CD (with some auto
> install software).
I think it will be stable (and fast) enough, Amiga/Tao Group are first targetting x86 and PPC based platforms. But remember it`s a huge task to fully support all diferent graphic chipsets, so Amiga will probably give some recommendations for a new platform that has already been tested or that we can test ourselves and help them to make it super stable.
Including a hosted version is a good idea for as long as Amiga and Tao can make enough money from it. This looks alot like my original idea, to include a classic kickstart ROM with 68k Amiga games/UAE, but the difference is that if AmigaOS would be open source and freely available, it wouldn`t cost developers a dime.
> Lets say Amiga Corp. gave the hosted version away for free to registered
> developers (or got a small royalty:-), then developers would suddenly be able
> to do a real multiplatform program with a huge potential userbase and
> increased sale.
How about if these developers also include a :"Only Amiga makes it possible! www.amiga.com" sign on the box. And adding some preview commercial MPGs explaining the benefits of using the new AmigaOS on the CD/DVD. :)
Sincerely, Mike Bouma.
http://www.stormloader.com/amiga
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 7 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by XDelusion on 12-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Not me):
It is a fact that a lot of Amiga software has become, just software, you can not stop that, as you can see with the Nintendo 64, and Sony Playstation emulators on the PeeSea. And to tell the Truth, I play with WinUAE, and wish very much that they would simplify it, and deck the hell out of it for Linux.
So the theme here is taking that old software, and reworking it to resemble the Linux approach a bit more, where you have to grab specific files to execute the programs under the OS, but for specific CPU instructions.
In Linux, it is possible to write installation scripts of course, as it is with the Amiga,but the Amiga, took and made a GUIj for these scripts, and really simplified how everything worked, and on top of this allowed you to choose certain installations, depending upon what CPU and set up you had. Well what if we started to take all that a step foward, and compose some sort of auto-detect feature, so the installation automatically realizes what CPU, GFX card, ect, that you have, and makes the required ajustments itself, making it even eaiser for the "new to computer" users, and leaving the option to still get in there and work with it all by hand if desired!
Hope Fleecy sees this.
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 8 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by XDelusion on 12-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
If you can make the emulation take full advantage of the PeeSeas's hardware, and in particular, the CPU, then you have got a plan here, otherwise forget it, UAE is pretty fun, but I would never take it seriously enough to use it all the time, or set up a PeeSea that boots dierectly into it, and use just it.
(Transmeta, Transmeta, Transmeta)
Can't wait to see where open source development heads if perfect emulation come into being, sort of Like Snes9x on a 3DFX card, only better!!! :)
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 9 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by XDelusion on 13-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (XDelusion):
And where do I find out more about Elate, I have never heard about it till just now, what the heck is it exactly?!?!
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 10 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by SClarke66@AOL.com on 14-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
This is not a new idea, I remember seeing this on
the web a long while back. Also I think it is good
in the short-term as a way of getting Amiga front
-of-mind but other than that it just accepts that
Amiga is not a viable platform, which we all know
is not true
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 11 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 14-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
The orginal post was about the new Tao/Amiga operation system.
IT was NOT about UAE, but reading most posts in here would suggest otherwise.
And regarding to a new Amiga platform, people should not associate hardware like chipsets, CPUs,
devices, etc to solely one platform. If you say hardware makes an Amiga an Amiga. How about
if you would upgrade your Miggy with a PPC, soundcard, BVision etc. Is that still an Amiga?
And the BoXeR?
In my opinion the OS is the most important part of a new Amiga. This is what makes it unique.
Hardware is important too, but isn`t unique to one platform. This has been different in the far
away past as computer manufacturers were both producing the hardware and the OS themselves.
Why shouldn`t we make use of our UNIQUE ability, to eventually run on as many different systems
(Hardware) as possible?
Sincerely, Mike Bouma.
http://www.stormloader.com/amiga
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 12 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Phill on 14-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
I think it's a good idea. Use of one of the most powerful features of Elate.
But, the multitasking abilities of Elate run in host mode is only as good as the OS its run on so making full use of the multitasking abilites for a NEW game (I take it you mean new and not emulated) would be a waste of time. But some great games could still be made.
So far elate runs on the following CPUs (taken from Tao's Web site: www.Tao.co.uk)
ARM 6/7®
StrongARM®
X86
ColdFire
Motorola M-coreTM
Motorola PowerPCTM
Hitachi SH 3 / 4
Mips R3000 / R4000 /R5000
NEC V850
so alot of potential there. Elate can only shine when on h/ware made for it (Amiga Incs 2nd phase for the new Amiga? here's hoping).
PS. I've read quite alot about Elate on the Tao web site and the is a mention of the "famous Amiga" in one of the pdf files (can't remember which one email me i will find it again for you)
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 13 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Tummy on 15-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
Cool idea (shipping an emulator with every game sold to make it compatible with the PC market), but who would provide technical support for those who install it and have difficulties? (90% of the average computer user).
Amiga/Elate programs on other platforms : Comment 14 of 14ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 15-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Tummy):
Cool idea (shipping an emulator with every game sold to make it compatible with the PC market), but who would provide technical support for those who install it and have difficulties? (90% of the average computer user).
It is not an emulator, it is a version of Elate that has the ability to run on top of other operating systems (like win9x,macos,linux etc.).
As it is not an emulator it should also be possible to get a reasonable speed on even a standard PC or Mac.
As for technical support, it should not be any harder to install than the average PC program, which I (must admit I)find pretty easy.
I don't like the UAE idea, as it as to difficult to get programs to run smooth enough on a system lower than P3-500mhz and the games it is possible to run on UAE would be unattractive to most PC users.
Regards
Troels
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