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[News] Greenboy interview, part 4ANN.lu
Posted on 22-Feb-2000 22:10 GMT by Christian Kemp12 comments
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Part IV of the Greenboy interview is now available.
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 1 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Yoris on 22-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
I eventually don't find this interveiw very interesting.
I still don't understand why Phoenix is usefull, what he has done and has to do and in what way it can contribute to Amiga and the Community.
Maybe someone can bring me some light ... ?
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 2 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by Bob Washburne on 22-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
OK, let me get this straight.
-) QNX is a real-time kernel company which sells kernels for embedded systems.
Neat. Real-time embedded is cool. Not much fun, but deffinately cool.
-) QNX wanted to expand its user base, so they have been developing a desktop
GUI to bring real-time to the masses. Great. The spreading of new technology
is always a good thing (and there are just enough exceptions to prove this rule).
-) AFTER QNX was well into the developement of their desk-top system they were
approached by Gatemiga as the possible replacement for exec for the Amiga NG.
While this wasn't a "bad" idea - video and animation definately benefit from
hard real-time - there were some significant shortcoming, such as driver support.
QNX thought this was great - they now had a ready-made market for THEIR system.
And marketing was/is a major problem with popularizing real-time.
-) BEFORE QNX did anything Amiga-specific Gatemiga pulled out and decided Linux
was the way to go. And that was probably the correct decision - Linux already
had the pieces QNX was missing and is well into the real-time developement.
But what a blow to QNX. Their easy market was being stripped from them.
-) So QNX decided to just continue with what they were doing, which was to
simply port THEIR system to the Amiga hardware. And since their system was
designed to port to ANY computer, this was an insignificant task.
So my question is: Just what does any of this have to do with the Amiga?
Or the AmigaNG?
Other OS's have been ported to the Amiga hardware, but none of these have been
called the AmigaNG or "hope of the future".
Reading the interview left me with three conclusions:
1) greenboy is haveing a lot of fun.
2) The QNX system is really neat.
3) None of this has anything to do with the Amiga or AmigaNG.
CK, maybe you should add one more catagory for "Other OS's" for stories such as
this, for Linux on Amiga hardware, etc.
Bob W.
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 3 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 22-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Bob Washburne):
>So my question is: Just what does any of this have to do with the Amiga?
>Or the AmigaNG?
This isn't intended as flame bait, but why is it any more or less the AmigaNG than TAOS stuff being created by Amiga. Both will presumably have Amiga emulation systems, and/or run on some sort of existing or planned (boxer) hardware, but other than that, they are both completely new systems. Fact is, they are both completely new systems designed by people with Amiga backgrounds, but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't 'Amigas' per se.
The way I see it, they have to do with Amigas because they will run on some Amiga hardware and have good emulation. In either case, though, I think it is a bit silly to call either of them 'AmigaNG'
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 4 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by Steve Crietzman on 22-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
To be fair, Phoenix are providing a valuable service to the Amiga community by providing us with additional choices. For that, we should all be grateful. Choice is good. But, that said, I have to agree, the Phoenix/QNX route in the eyes of a great number of people is not "an Amiga solution" per se, but an "inspired by Amiga" strategy. The same applies to the Amiga/Tao route; it is fundamentally an ambitious, "inspired by Amiga" strategy.
Both are exciting projects with great potential, and the fact they are listening closely to the Amiga community in order to adapt their OSs to the needs of the community should be seen as A Good Thing, welcomed, appreciated and encouraged.
At the same time, there is GREAT demand for an AmigaOS-based option, as seems clear from the rejection by many of the Tao/QNX route. My experience has been that people DO want something new and exciting, but they want AmigaOS to be at it's core. The Open Amiga Foundation was established initially - when we were known as COSA or before that the 'Save the Amiga campaign' - to develop and deliver such a solution - and we are working on a strategy that fits along those lines - ambitious, but with an AmigaOS core, and doing the best given the resources that we have. We listen *extremely* closely to our members and take regular opinion polls to gather feedback, and adapt our plans accordingly.
The community clearly need something more than just an upgrade to the existing OS -- something a little more ambitious, with the potential to grow the Amiga market -- but many people feel that QNX or Tao (or Linux) just "ain't it".
I have privately expressed this opinion, which I believe is representative of a great number of Amiga users out there, to Fleecy Moss and Bill McEwen in numerous emails.
It remains my belief, and fear, that if a sufficient ambitious strategy for AmigaOS is not developed, there is the potential for a pronounced, severe backlash at some point in the future, from the elements within the Amiga community that will - whether correctly or not is irrelevant - feel betrayed by the choice of a new OS kernel and the long-term phasing out of the existing one. Just look at what happened to Tom Schmidt, examine the reasons for his unpopularity, and we can see why. People finally realised that why was being developed wasn't an Amiga, except perhaps in philosophy.
We need an option for those who feel that AmigaOS is "the key." This doesn't mean that Phoenix or QNX cannot pursue their strategies, indeed I hope that they will - and succeed - and I feel they have the potential to do extremely well - but we need to consider ALL points of view to ensure that ALL suggestions, ideas, feedback and all elements and points of view within the community are properly addressed, and that there are reasonable solutions for ALL elements within the Amiga community.
Best Regards,
Steve Crietzman
Open Amiga Foundation
http://www.openamiga.org
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 5 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 22-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
Wouldn't it be good if all these parties got together and shared code?

  • We would have different OS systems, and different programs giving lots of choice.
  • If one system fails in the market place we can use software for another of the systems.
  • If there there are conflicts there could be a choice of boot options.
  • Taos mention QNX on their site so the process might not be as
    difficult as we think.
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 6 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by Steve Crietzman on 22-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (John Block):
I'm up for that.. :) I'm sure that all parties could get together and find a place for themselves in the greater Amiga picture. One of the reasons I'd like to see the OS released as open source, is that the OS could be developed irrespective of what happens to the parent company now or in the future, i.e. it would be free to be developed, irrespective of market forces. At least this way we would have a fallback if all the commercial entities involved were to go belly-up (and we do have to consider that possibility, it has happened so many times in the past now.) Although my sincere hope is that QNX, AmigaOS and Tao all prosper. There is plenty of market share for each to find their own niche.
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 7 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by Martin TIlsted on 22-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Bob Washburne):
If your defination of amiga is anything that use the 680x0 chip and
have the old/ecs/aga chipset, then this project has nothing to do width Amiga.
Martin Tilsted.
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 8 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by Mario saitti on 23-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Ben Yoris):
> I eventually don't find this interveiw very interesting.
Sorry Ben, there is a fine line between making an article interesting and making it reckless. greenboy has to walk a tightrope.
> I still don't understand why Phoenix is usefull, what he has done and has to > do and in what way it can contribute to Amiga and the Community.
How many clients of yours submit their business proposals to a public forum?
> Maybe someone can bring me some light ... ?
There is no obiter dictum for Phoenix. No divine principle that will illuminate you. What Phoenix does will be obvious soon enough...
Mario.
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 9 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Yoris on 23-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Mario saitti):
I didn't want to blame greenboy or anyone else.
I hope as you say that the benefits from Phoenix will be obvious soon.
But I share the feeling of basic, non coder, Amiga user who for the moment don't see the reason why for Phoenix.
Anyway for me, any single team, project or even reflexion upon the Amiga is a good thing : because they're few !
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 10 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by Mario Saitti on 23-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Ben Yoris):
> I didn't want to blame greenboy or anyone else.
I know Ben, I picked up on that.
> I hope as you say that the benefits from Phoenix will be obvious soon.
As do I. It's a lot of work and there is no guarantee of success. However the benefits will be obvious, whether it succeeds or not. Progress is continuing at a steady pace, but that is all that can be said.
> But I share the feeling of basic, non coder, Amiga user who for the moment
> don't see the reason why for Phoenix.
Phoenix has a primary goal. The creation of a commercially viable business environment for developers(predominantly Amigan) to operate in. Do you not see a need for this?
> Anyway for me, any single team, project or even reflexion upon the Amiga is a > good thing : because they're few !
Which is one reason why Phoenix has taken so much effort to build. It's not exactly easy to model a market which is by it's very nature designed to lose money. As time passes this becomes increasingly difficult since companies like Phase 5 who went into insolvency take others with them. It may seem that only Phase 5 is affected, or that because DCE have stepped in that everything is tickety boo. It is quite the opposite. DCE are not going to be able to meet the initial demands of companies like White Knight who have lots of orders on hold. Smaller companies WILL go under if that money makes up a good sized percentage of their working capital. Not everyone will wait until new production lines are ramped up. You may see White Knight as a dealer and not a developer. Phoenix would disagree.
I hope this clarifies some issues for you.
Mario.
Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 11 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by unpopular views on 23-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
OK, what no one is saying is:

1) If there is a battle of Amigaalikes, Amiga is strong favorite to win because they have the name. This will lead to disillusionment and low morale amongst people who have put their all into Phoenix. This means that talks with Amiga should start at the earliest.

2) The cards cost in the $500 region. The price of a cheapo PC or a Playstation2. The new Amiga is slated for Q3. That's 6 months or $84 a month use of the card. We need a shopping list from Amiga. That's one thing Gateway got right, providing a shopping list in advance for OS3.5

3) Users and developers are investing in the dark. Suppose that the Q3 system won't work with the cards. Shouldn't we all be warned before manufacturing runs are ordered and stocks get built up.

Greenboy interview, part 4 : Comment 12 of 12ANN.lu
Posted by unpopular views on 23-Feb-2000 23:00 GMT
OK, what no one is saying is:

1) If there is a battle of Amigaalikes, Amiga is strong favorite to win because they have the name. This will lead to disillusionment and low morale amongst people who have put their all into Phoenix. This means that talks with Amiga should start at the earliest.

2) The cards cost in the $500 region. The price of a cheapo PC or a Playstation2. The new Amiga is slated for Q3. That's 6 months or $84 a month use of the card. We need a shopping list from Amiga. That's one thing Gateway got right, providing a shopping list in advance for OS3.5

3) Users and developers are investing in the dark. Suppose that the Q3 system won't work with the cards. Shouldn't we all be warned before manufacturing runs are ordered and stocks get built up.

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