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[News] Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2kANN.lu
Posted on 02-Apr-2000 08:12 GMT by Christian Kemp22 comments
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Silvio Massina sent me an edited IRC log of the Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k. I cleaned up the code some more, click below to read details. <fleecy> All of the announcements are going to be made tonight at the banquet, and then they will go up on the website. This includes a demo of the Tao stuff and the devbox

<cwall_AMI> point questions to me in private thank you

<fleecy> Tomorrow, the devbox and demos will be down on the floor just next to UGN booth so they can tell you all about it. The public website will go up in the next couple of days...so they tell me. www.amiga.com

Q: *rudge* -So the developer's machine isn't even out on display?

<fleecy> It will be out tomorrow - we are polishing the case at the moment

Q: *Zonkk* Q: Is everything chugging along nicely and meeting with your plans so far? And everyone involved happy

<fleecy> We are literally snowed under with offers of partnerships, money, fame, fast cars etc

Q: *Gooseman* When are the parnerships going to be announced?

<fleecy> Before I tell you what the dev box is, you need to understand that the only thing that matters is the Virtual Processor(VP). It already runs on x86, PPC, MIPS, ARM, SH4..and some other very nice, soon to be announced megaCHIPS. What I pushed in my 3 hr Fidel Castro dev speech was that hardware is becoming a commodity. The dev machine will be a k6 2 500mhz, 64MB, Geforce 256 machine - cheap, runs the Tao system very well

Q: *dmac* will developer softwre be available on the web ?

<fleecy> Gary is doing the support site - there will be a full, professional organisation, paid and free, all done via the web

Q: *Omni* Q : So the dev machine is normal PC ?

<fleecy> YEs, because it makes no difference!!! As soon as someone sends us a PoP machine, we will have that up and running

Q: *rudge* - So can this system be put on any store-bought PC yet or is there still some hardware involved?

<fleecy> Not at the moment - as it is dev system we are only supporting one gfx card, 1 audio card etc.

Q: *m0ns00n* Question: How about AROS. Are you supporting the initiative? Will AmigaNG OS be open source or free, like BeOS5?

<fleecy> We will be making an AROS announcement tnonight 8-)

Q: *KatseNova* q: Do you plan to sell devkits, or will that available for free? By Devkit.. i mean only the software part.

<fleecy> We haven't decided yet - piracy is still a major concern

Q: *jobe* what's with my pc having these specified hardware. am i able to get the dev soft?

<fleecy> Not initially, but quite soon afterwards. If the machine isn't bought from us however, then we won't support any issues you have

Q: *Riley* is the new OS running native or hosted on the devbox? how about the first consumer releases?

<fleecy> It runs hosted on Linux to start with, to show that we can, and to make big companies realise we can do pure, very fast stuff or good hosted stuff - try before you buy gives our developers a huge market from the getgo

Q: *Omni* Q: Ok the dev machine is a PC with developer software, but no DOS no Win crap, right ? Will it look like another computer ?

<fleecy> It is a dev box, pig ugly and functional - no MS stuff near it though

Q: *DJNick* Question to Fleccy: Will there be some larger companies supporting Amiga in future, like Corel or Adobe...? GA

<fleecy> Tonight we will make announcements about partnerships with multi billion dollar companies

Q: *jobe* how does the vp compare to java - in terms of performance

<fleecy> The VP is close to, if not faster than native monolithic - Java runs on top of it - the J-Engine is the fastest per MIPS JVM on the planet by an order of magnitude - that's why Sun love Tao

Q: *dmac* Is uae or other emulation in current development ?

<fleecy> Not by us - but we are talking to 2 or 3 companies or groups who have different approaches

Q: *dmac* How much is the dev machine ?

<fleecy> I just build them...

Q: *Riley* can you shed any light as to whether there's any plans anywhere to bring out Amiga-branded hardware or at least machines with the new OS preinstalled sometime this year (ever)? so that people can go out and "buy an Amiga"

<fleecy> We will work with hardware partners, both Amiga and other to create a solution. How the marketing and branding is done is Bill, Randy and Petro's job. We hope to have a consumer system out before the end of the year....but the evbox will rusumer release, so although we call it a dev box, non devs can buy it

Q: *portnoy* If it runs on a standard pc platform, will it take advantage of pc "plug&pray"?

<fleecy> We will leave standard PC stuff to hosted Elate - Dean is going to do HW reference designs for our own systems

Q: *Gooseman* When will a high profile awareness campaign begin?

<fleecy> We have hired Frank Sinatra to run the campaign...

Q: *KatseNova* q: Will you have a degree of support.. like your major support for devkits sells to commercial developers and hobbyists are last-inline?

<fleecy> We will support all levels = obviously we hope the community will come together around the free stuff as we have to concentrate resources on the paying customer s- this is a business after all ;-)

Q: *m0ns00n* Q: When will we see some good screenshots of the new interface (GUI) - will it feel like AmigaOS?

<fleecy> The interface system is abstracted - it provides an architecture on which multiple interface models can be added. Our first one will be something very different, but ppl can create anything they like

Q: *Gooseman* What about going IPO?

<fleecy> YEs, we do plan to IPO - money in the bank is always good, plus we want to spread the ownership around, and to the Amiga community as well - it gives us a degree of protection from predators, although we may do some hunting ourselves

Q: *Riley* exactly what parts of the new OS are done by the Amiga team and what parts by Tao?

<fleecy> Tao is providing the core but that will be hidden beneath a radical new architecture

Q: *NEO* I wonder about Jim Collas. Is he gone forever or will he get back to Amiga Inc...?

<fleecy> JIm was a great salesman - now he is off doing something very differnent, and very happy doing it. NO ONE benefited from association with the previous employer

Q: when will we be able to buy a dev system?

<fleecy> We have 10 pre prods now - the master is being burnt and then we hope in 2-4 weeks, they will be in channels

Q: *Gooseman* How big will the core OS be?

<fleecy> When we find enough punch cards, we'll let you know. the core kernel is 25kb - the whole thing with the interface and JAva runs in 3MB

Q: *NEO* Are we talking about a revolution here? Will it be so great and a competetive to MS os? What will be your main argument to make ppl use this new OS?

<fleecy> We think so, because we're talking about something more than just computers, or applications

Q: *Mr_Tickle* with Wouter on the team, will we have an E compiler for the new platform? I ask because E could be easier for beginners to learn than C

<fleecy> Wouter (the gnarly snowboarder) will be doing something very special...and it's to do with farm animals

Q: *Omni* Q: Does the dev machine will provide access to USB, DVD, Firewire ...

<fleecy> It is being added - that is the point of us releasing a dev system

Q: *KatseNova* q: Is the idea of the new OS to be a consumer OS like Be/Apple?wind*ze? Or do you target now mainly for intelligent devices?

<fleecy> We have 2 markets, the digital adventurer - an extension of the current Amiga market, and then the Domestic Digital Habitat, for those who hate computers but love devices

Q: *DJNick* I'd like to suggest you to get in touch with more Amiga developers (like SoftLogik - PageStream, Greg Perry - DOpus, then programmer of Photogenics etc etc...). We need stronger ties between Amiga and its developers (like SoftLogik - PageStream, Greg Perry - DOpus, then programmer of Photogenics etc etc...). We need stronger ties between Amiga and its developers

<fleecy> there's an idea

Q: *pepto* (?) Will Icons be seperate files as in AmigaOS-Classic? (pleeease...) 8)

<fleecy> graphics are graphics, icons or animated baywatch images

Q: *portnoy* You said earlier "We hope to have a consumer system out before the end of the year" WIll this be a really usable computer or something of an introductory level?

<fleecy> if it isn't then we aren't really doing our job

Q: *OSS542* can you tell us something about this Virtual Processor and compare it with say, Transmeta ?

<fleecy> The VP is an abstraction - code is compiled to it and distributed. At run time, the "tool" is loaded and translated on the fly to native code

Q: *NEO* Can you say something about this new OS that will wipe away any doubts i have about it...?

<fleecy> No, I don't know what you're doubts are.

Q: *KatseNova* Who exactly do you consider to be targeted as developers for Domestic Digital Devices, will that be Big Names? To who do you plan to license the Amiga technology (if it is licensed)?

<fleecy> Anyone with a good idea and some money

Q: *dmac* will it have ram: device like an amiga?

<fleecy> We tired putting a ram in it but it started eating the keyboard

Q: *jobe* why should someone use the new OS in his device. there are so many OSes out there (e.g. epoc, palmos, WinCE, qnx etc.). any real good arguments?

<fleecy> The reason ppl are running to Tao is because of Java. The reason ppl will run to us is because we offer, smaller , faster, better

Q: *Riley* how "Amiga-like" is the new system? are there any concrete similarities (like a screens-feature)?

<fleecy> I don't want to get into the religious war - we hired notably Amigans because the spirit is in them. Screens is just a mechanism in a single interface implementation

Q: *Mr_Tickle* whats happening with Gateways AmigaObjects? do they enter into the question?

<fleecy> No

Q: *Mr_Tickle* whats happening with Gateways AmigaObjects? do they enter into the question?

<fleecy> No

Q: *Omni* Q: Will the dev machine have video facilities to be widely use in the video market like the Amiga once did, and still does ... ?

<fleecy> We intend to excel in all areas - the dev box is a DEV box....this stuff is being designed and added - the dev team has only been together 6 weeks

Q: *ACEini* Is the new OS as logical as the AmigaOS (Monitors in Monitors: dos drivers in DosDrivers: and so on?

<fleecy> You create your own structure, which is the way it should be

Q: *KatseNova* As I understand that the Java VM is the core of the new Amiga, that means that apps are multiplatform .. windoze,Apple..?

<fleecy> No it isn't. Java is a service - the core is Elate

Q: last question next... Q: *Steini* is the new OS a single or multi user system, and how do you plan to support connectivity with other os's (network file systems and such) ?

<fleecy> yes - standard, open interfaces

Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 1 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Mart on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
WHY RUN ELATE ON TOP OF LINUX, AS IT WILL PERFORM BETTER ALONE ?
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 2 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Casey R Williams on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Mart):
Of course it will, and they know it. Problem is, Amiga realise that in order to
succeed, they have to sell to a larger market than just current "Classic" owners.
This means that their product has to appeal to the Windows community as well as
to the growing Linux community. By running Elate on top of Linux, they are able
to show that running the new OS won't require trashing your current configuration,
as well as to provide the opportunity for users to compare both OSes side by side.
If Elate is everything it's made out to be, it should appear superior to Linux
even while being hosted by it.
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 3 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
And one should remember that this indeed is a developers machine, and perhaps they need the Linux side for some development activity as well, and/or the Elate side still lacks some vital features that would make a development machine unusable. I don't know that for a fact, but I do know for a fact that this is not a consumer release.
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 4 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Mart on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
I'm just afraid that this will turn out to be a permanent setup....
And something like this will happen: UAE on top of elate on top of linux running on PC hardware...
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 5 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Michael Jantzen on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
I don't think the final system would run on top of Linux - that doesn't make to much sense - I guess however the BeOS runs on top of Linux now (or stand-along) I read that on slashdot today. I guess we'll never know - hopefully they don't go out of business between the release of the dev machine and the final product.
I'll tell the Amiga people this - if it can manage my word documents (I have no choice since thats what the university uses) and play counter-strike with it I'll buy one :). Plus it has to work like an Amiga (heh heh). I still can't get enough of AmigaDOS's intergration/structure.
Michael Jantzen ^_^
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 6 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Bob C on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
WOW. It is really happening and is very exciting! It has been a very long wait. I wonder if the NEW AMIGA had anything to do with BeOS being given away?
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 7 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Michael Jantzen on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
I'm also somewhat worried about the constant "create your own structure" rhetoric fleecy was talking about. I may be somewhat old-fashioned, but I like just a tad bit of consistancy like Windows or Mac or the existing Amiga DOS. I use linux a lot, and I think there are too many choices on creating your own structure - just go onto www.freshmeat.net and type in window manager (Sawmill, enlightenment, FVWM, FVWM-2, TWM etc etc etc), desktop (Afterstep, GNUStep, Gnome, KDE etc etc), or theme into the search engine. Which one do you use? Which one will abandone you and disapear?
Don't get me wrong - this is good news, I'm still just a little worried thats all.
Michael Jantzen ^_^
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 8 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
It's typical....developer system will run on K6-II 500mhz with GeForce 256 GFX, and people in c.s.a.m are allready talking about the crap K6, complaining that it will run hosted etc. What do they expect??? Its a developer system NOT an enduser system.
If it had used a Intel cpu that would have been wrong too!
As I see it they have now come up with an affordable system with a decent performance and even avoided intel too.
Just wondering what about audio, they didn't say anything about that did they?
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 9 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Mart):
It'll run Elate native later on. It's a devbox remember. You know D E V B O X :o)
/Björn
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 10 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Sid Spider on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Troels Ersking):
Even if it does use an AMD K6 processor, at least it's faster than any
CPU on any current Amigas! :-) Also, consider that it's cheap,
easily available and should be able to take faster AMD chips.
Besides, PPCs are too expensive really, and there would have been a
massive backlash if Amiga used an Int*l CPU. :-/ At least we have
something concrete from Amiga! Stop picking holes in everything pls,
it's a dev machine, it's here NOW. Since when have you been able to
buy a dev machine for a NG Amiga??? Hmmmm, 1992? At least they've
delivered. :-)
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 11 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Michael Jantzen):
Yes, there should atleast be something which reminds of the old AmigaOS GUI as they have done in BeOS.
I think they own the community atleast that much, to make an AmigaOS GUI option.
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 12 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Dries Pruimboom on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
Come on people, cut them some slack, don't complain and then see, see and then complain. What i mean is this, first nothing happens, everyone complains, now something happens, everyone complains.
The TAO virtual processor is more or less revolutionary and new, the dev machine is out in about 2 months, it will run on practically any processor you can think of, it will run java (i hear word-perfect), the user interface is de-coupled from the actual OS (meaning that if you want screens, then start writing and make them !!), device drivers are more or less binary compatible between processor architectures due to the VP code, the system should give us real time behaviour (something linux is struggling to get). . . .
What i mean is this, it sounds good, very damn good, stop complaining and get dev-machines and in about 3/4th of a year get a real machine !!
Grtz Dries . . ..
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 13 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Colin Wilson on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
I spoke to someone who`s working on a hardware project - he`s seen Tao running under linux, and apparently it *stinks* for speed ("feels like a Mac OS5")...
It could just be the emuation aspect, running under an already top heavy OS (ie. winuae on a 350Mhz PC is often no faster than an 020-14), and *maybe* the native installed Tao code *will* fly, but it`s still a concern i`ve got that it just won`t be fast enough.
Try asking a Tao developer for some benchmarks, and see what excuses you get... Not all benchmarks need to involve industry standard files (ie scanning a large Access database etc), but they could at least give us comparisons on whether the disk IO subsystems are at least as fast as comparable OS`s.
By comparing the speed of, say, rc5 under the same hardware on `doze and Tao (that would let us compare OS overheads, as the actual mathematical functions should be the same speed in theory)
I know the cross-platform compatibility is a MAJOR selling point, and this *MAY* be the saving grace of the OS
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 14 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Victor on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
Attention!
There is an important question missing in this irc-log! It's that: when will the dev-software be available for the PPC-Amiga's? (IIRC, Elate is available for PPC yet, isn't it?) Somebody could, please, ask for it on the show?
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 15 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Mart on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
Another thing that bothers me is this:
CZ-news said that Amiga will be the common consumer interface for 26 versions of linux.......
(read CZ-news)
And amiga will be the common consumer interface for corel linux apps...
Does this mean what I think it means ?
Corel draw (etc) runs only on top of Amiga, if Amiga runs on top of linux...
And how the h#ll can an OS running on top of another OS be better (read faster) than the host OS ?
Why do we need a geforce and a K6 for the dev system, when LINUX runs on alot more ?
I'm NOT complaining ! I'm glad something is happening her, but something arent clear to me right now....
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 16 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Colin Wilson):
Reply to comment 13.
Hello Colin.
"Colin writes" I spoke to someone who`s working on a hardware project - he`s seen Tao running under linux, and apparently it *stinks* for speed ("feels like a Mac OS5")... "end"
What company would that be? It is a very few company's/persons that actually had acces to elate, but maybe you mean the old OS Taos?
Other sources state it is as fast as Linux will allow it to be.
"Colin writes" It could just be the emuation aspect, running under an already top heavy OS (ie. winuae on a 350Mhz PC is often no faster than an 020-14), and *maybe* the native installed Tao code *will* fly, but it`s still a concern i`ve got that it just won`t be fast enough. "end"
Linux doesn't have to be top heavy (ok standard redhat is), and elate is NOT being emulated on top of linux, you can not compare it to UAE.
"Colin writes" Try asking a Tao developer for some benchmarks, and see what excuses you get... Not all benchmarks need to involve industry standard files (ie scanning a large Access database etc), but they could at least give us comparisons on whether the disk IO subsystems are at least as fast as comparable OS`s. "end"
It's only a developer release, the enduser system is far from ready yet, so you can't do any comparisons yet. simple as that.
"Colin writes" By comparing the speed of, say, rc5 under the same hardware on `doze and Tao (that would let us compare OS overheads, as the actual mathematical functions should be the same speed in theory)
I know the cross-platform compatibility is a MAJOR selling point, and this *MAY* be the saving grace of the OS "end"
It is a major selling point but NONE of us know enough of Elate to say it's the only selling point and that is what you try to say.
Troels Ersking
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 17 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by fleecy on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Mart):
It is one configuration, a configuration that allows us to give our developers a much bigger market very early on, a configuration that allows a great many more people to buy and try the new Amiga product without spending a large amount of money.
Another configuration is one that sees our new production running directly on any hardware we chose it do, directly, from the excellent Arm all the way to quad PPC workstations and servers. The Amiga message, and advantage is that hardware is a commodity now.
The Devbox is the quickest way, after we've been in business 90 days to get a product out the door to developers. One of our next projects is to get it running in a different configuration, directly against the hardware.
Dean Brown, our director of hardware is already working on hardware reference designs for other processors, as are other partners. Elate gives us a huge advantage in that we aren't, and thus the developer and the user aren't tied now to a particular piece of hardware. That is a very real advantage.
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 18 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Mart on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (fleecy):
Thanks Fleecy,
I realy like that you guys are doing so much so soon right now !
But, there are so many things that arent clear to us....
So we (or I) dont know if its worthwhile to invest in a PPC board, or whatever (we dont have unlimited cash)
Will we be able to keep on using PPC and high end 060 games and apps on the 'new' machine when it arives ?
And many other questions we think would be possible to answer by Amiga inc, but are NOT or very unclear answered by you...
We understand that there are NDA's signed and stuff, but all is still is so uncertain.
Again thanks for what you are doing...
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 19 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Janne Sirén):
Yes, this is correct. Linux provides some services currently not incorporated in Elate.
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 20 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Mart):
Yes, buying a PPC board is a worthwile investment. Elate currently supports the PPC so the new OS can (and will) be ported to current PPC's.
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 21 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin Lanchbury on 01-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
So let me get this straight - if I want a new Amiga then all I have to do is pull my old P133 PC off the shelf, dust it down, replace the motherboard with a AMD 500mhz+ compatible, buy the approved graphics card, stick in 64mb RAM, buy Red Hat Linux, wait for Red Hat to distribute Elate and install that and finally grab a "magic-marker" pen and put a line through "Packard Bell" on my tower case and write "Amiga 6000NG" next to it. Easy - I can do that!!!
Seriously, this is all very exciting stuff and I look forward to some hard info on the BoXeR and the AmiJoe card. Well done Amiga Inc for producing some solid results in such a short time. My confidence in you was obviously justified and it's a shame that PC Format is no longer here to report thses events in their next issue.
Edited IRC log of Fleecy chat session on #Amiga2k : Comment 22 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Rob Bamford on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
I'm adding a comment before I read other comments so that my thoughts are fresh.
My main thought is that Fleecy was not serious enough. He seemed to be joking
a lot and at this particular point in time I think that was in poor taste. I do
respect Fleecy though, don't get me wrong.
I also thought that there was far too little real information in this piece.
Almost wasn't worth reading.
One particular comment that struck me as bad was:
Q: *ACEini* Is the new OS as logical as the AmigaOS (Monitors in Monitors: dos
drivers in DosDrivers: and so on?
[fleecy] You create your own structure, which is the way it should be
Really? I may be just a simple end-user, but for installations to go smoothly
on a consuder PC, isn't it a little smarter to have a consistant place for
certain files to be stored so that everyone KNOWS exactly where they should be
located? I can understand this thinking for different 'devices' that will not
necessarily have things installed on them or need to be as compatible. While
the folder/directory names can change as appropriate, on a desktop computer this
just didn't sound right.
There were other things, but I have said enough for now.
Anonymous, there are 22 items in your selection
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