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[News] Amiga2k show analysisANN.lu
Posted on 03-Apr-2000 19:33 GMT by Christian Kemp19 comments
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Corinna Cohn went to the Amiga2k and posted an extensive analysis on Moo Bunny. She describes the show itself, provides a rundown of the products on display, talks about Bill's speech and what she later talked with Bill and Fleecy. Read part 1, part 2 and part 3
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 1 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
Who`s this Corinna Cohn? She looks like a very negative person to me... Likes nobody, enjoys nothing, pleased with nothing.. Is it only me? She even doesn`t like icecream...
Ah let Fleecy do his jokes. What would life be without humour. Let Bill brag about his "Gateway revenge". Don`t we need a little drama and excitement as well? Come on this is the Amiga community we are talking about or do we want M$ like puppets as executives?
Sincerely, Mike Bouma.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 2 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
Criticism is generally only negative if the recipient receives it as such. If it is received as constructive, then it is positive, IMO.
In any case, there is A LOT of good information there. Thank you Corina!
Mike
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 3 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Mike Bouma):
I agree - and her statement about AGP being not much different than PCI? Sheeesh...
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 4 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
Heh. I happen to share some of Fleecy's sense of humor, so I can't comment on that, but with regards to professionalism, I think the /biggest/ smear on Amiga right now is the #($*#$# website!
Look at ANN here, look at kilobit.org (run by a friend of mine, but it's basically a one-man operation), then look at the official international presence for Amiga on the 'net. Not too pretty, is it? We're supposed to be seeing an update "any day now," which hopefully means that they're finding a new designer, but you have to admit that any IPO-seeking startup in today's business world would've made damn sure to have the new site launch on the day of a major announcement, not "whenever."
Aside from that, I'm pretty satisfied with the announcement, although I'd like to be able to see a picture of the developer's box, even if it's not much different from the clone I'm typing on. My guess as to why they're running hosted is probably that, until now, very little development work for Elate has been done under Elate itself. When someone sits down to write a minibrowser for a cellphone, they don't punch it in on the phone's handset, they use some sort of desktop box with some sort of desktop OS. Someone's probably cooking up an AMIEDevelop package or such for Elate, and that will probably be available before the first consumer boxes come out, but for now we're in a situation similar to the Macintosh and Lisa. Want to code for a Mac? Buy a Lisa. The upside is that the devbox isn't trying to be anything but a devbox, and that a local (runs within AMIE/Elate) development environment will no doubt be available by the time the first "consumer" product is shipped.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 5 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Marco Ridoni on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Dave):
It depends what you are speaking about. With the clock and bus speeds you can obtain on an Amiga (or on a Boxer), even with the fastest PPC board around, you can't even get near bus saturation for AGP or PCI, so it is basically the same.
Now AGP has gotten better, but the first tests when AGP appeared indicated that, on PCs, AGP didn't make much difference over PCI. And you have to consider that not everybody is playing Quake at 1024x768 24bpp. PCI is more than enough for ordinary 2D applications; and, I want to stress this again, no "current" Amiga can use that power. Also AGP has difficulties on some motherboards with non-Intel chipsets or CPUs (i.e. Athlon), because it is strictly linked to the Intel architecture. I'm not opting out AGP; it's probably the way to go in the future, but I think that it is a bit more complicated than saying "it's faster, it's better..." (no pun intended).
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 6 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Marco Ridoni):
This whole PCI versus AGP debate is pure nonsense. AGP is not much different from PCI.
There isn't a single PC out there than can saturate a 64 bits/66 Mhz PCI bus, let alone AGP x 4.
Once again, people are getting caught up in this marketing nonsense on the PC. It ranks right up there with interpolated resolutions on scanners and CD Rom speeds.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 7 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Steve Crietzman on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
It's nice to see a healthy skeptical look at what Amiga are upto for a change.
We need more of this. For too long, we have blindly believed what we are told about a coming "Amiga revolution," and it's way past time we developed the ability to be skeptical of the latest "saviour company" to come in line. We are again being asked to trust a leader. Wasn't it fleecy would said we shouldn't do this? That the community should stand up and be counted, and not rely on saviours? Well, Corina's post is a good indication that skepticism still exists out there, and it's good to see such healthy criticism every now and again.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 8 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Colin Wilson on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Steve Crietzman):
Exactly. Criticism can work both ways (constructive, and destructive), but is most often interpreted as negative by the people most heavily involved.
Feedback is necessary for all products, from the concept to the end result. Without it, things wouldn`t be improved.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 9 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Steve on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Marco Ridoni):
True - to a certain extent - however don't forget that we will be using standard PC hardware, not old Amiga hardware. As well as this - I often play Quake 3 at high resolutions using a RIVA TNT (PCI) When I swapped it for a AGP (again an Nvidia) it was much better.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 10 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 02-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Steve):
More than likely you got a different TNT chip. There are several different versions of the TNT and TNT2 chips. Moreover, depending on the manufacturer, you will get different sizes of onboard memory and more importantly, different memory speeds.
To just claim that a decent implementation of PCI is substantially slower than AGP is pure nonsense, sorry.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 11 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Brad Jacobsen on 03-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Agreed on performance issues, but what about future development of PCI graphics cards? Like it or not, industry hype will associate "Faster/Better" with AGP causing the PC zombies to shun PCI graphics cards. No one will continue to develop for a perceived inferior interface.
However, time is running out. I'd rather see the BoXeR out than wait till whenever for a redesign.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 12 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Marco Ridoni on 03-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Brad Jacobsen):
I do agree that AGP is the way to go due to the abundance of boards and chips on the market which in turn makes them cheap, especially if compared to rare -to-find PCI boards (I had to purchase a 3DFX Banshee even if I don't play many games because here in Italy I couldn't find a decent - and decently priced - PCI board). I just wanted to stress that AGP doesn't have a definite technological advantage over PCI (if you leave marketing hype aside, that's it)
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 13 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Isn't the big thing about AGP that the AGP hardware gets direct access to the system memory?
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 14 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 03-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
I'm not sure if any non-x86 hardware can utilize AGP. The BoXer is a PPC board (or 680x0/PPC?), so it's a moot point. The exception to this rule may be some Alpha boards or SGI systems, but doubt that anything exists.
An x86 running Elate, native or hosted, should be able to take full advantage of such features, provided the drivers are in place. (If it's hosted, I'm going to guess that /both/ OSes are going to need drivers, which is why I don't see the hosting becoming a big priority under Linux.. except as a virtual machine for Java and other crossplatform environments, or for appliances, as others have said.)
This isn't rocket science, and while I know that many Amigans have avoided PC hardware like the plague, I'm surprised that these things aren't common knowledge. (...and are we sure that the audio ports on the ATX BoXer don't line up with the holes in the case, or is whoever reported that unfamiliar with the existence of about 3 different "standard" ATX shield designs? ...I'd hate to think of how many of the unused shields an OEM shop must throw out in a day..)
Bottom line: by only providing PCI, the BoXer might be limited to older-generation PC hardware, but this stuff is plentiful, and it'd probably be a real b*tch to put an AGP slot on it. You're not losing much, since apparently PCI Voodoo3s are available, and you're gaining the ability to use cheap ethernet cards, modems, U2WSCSI cards, and all sorts of other fun stuff... not to mention 16 bit audio :)
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 15 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Michael Taylor on 03-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
AGP was supposed to allow board makers to do away with the need to place ram on
their cards but nobody uses it so they can keep the prices up. Anyways isn't their a PCI-X slot coming out later this year.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 16 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by cYB0rG on 03-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
AGP roxx, that's all , but perf is almost equal that PCI, but AGP is better :)
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 17 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by bbuilder on 03-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
Not sure if non-x86 can use AGP?
Check apple.com.
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 18 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by sutro on 03-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
AGP ? Don't believe the hype.I don't care that AGP is an invention of evil
Int*l. Simply it is not anything special , not good enough for a general
purpose interface no matter how hard Int*l tries to sell it.
After all a GFX card is not the only part of a computer system.
Now ... where my firewire PCI card went ?
sutro
Z3 still rules
Amiga2k show analysis : Comment 19 of 19ANN.lu
Posted by Kevin Orme on 04-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Mike):
I also went to this show, and while I'm not the experienced Amiga user Corinna is (anyone seen her demonstrate ImageFX? You'll know what I mean) I can appreciate hers and others' skepticism.
I guess the best thing about this show in my opinion is that *finally* the Amiga is in the hands of Amigans, and if this is our last stand, we have no one left to blame but ourselves if it fails. I think it is a credit to Bill M. and Fleecy that they are willing to put their professional 'lives on the line' as it were for the Amiga. Sure, they'd find other jobs if it fails, but they are, togther with Randy Hughes, pretty much putting it on the line for the Amiga, this from Bill who's only used one for the past year or two, that says something about his belief in the computer.
But, as Corinna correctly points out, the proof is in the pudding. I just like the notion that we can't blame anyone else now for our situation. In talking quite extensively with Gary Peake, and noting that Amiga Inc. *have* hired several noted Amiga luminaries (Dean K. Brown, etc.), we are truly in charge. Even if you have issues with Fleecy, Bill or others, that doesn't mean we can't work together for a common goal, the revival of the Amiga.
And the hardware independence question. As my friend pointed out throughout the show (to Gary Peake, Fleecy and others), we shouldn't care really what hardware is underlying the new Amiga, as long as its execution is still an Amiga. If Motorola is not given sufficient market incentive to keep up with Intel and AMD (partially due to the fact that Motorola builds a lot more stuff than simply chips, unlike the other two and thus doesn't always focus on the business to the degree it *should* - this applies to IBM for slightly different reasons, too) they won't make the effort to 'keep up' with Intel and AMD and thus PowerPC performance will suffer. While there is no reason to believe this at present, as he pointed out, every next generation of faster chips requires completely new fab plants, and unlike Motorola or IBM, Intel and AMD have no choice but to build them - chips are their only business. Thus why not take advantage of the better hardware if Intel makes it? There won't be any Microsoft bloat to screw it up, and won't we run that much faster as a result? Everyone's seen a souped up game on a souped up PC - think about what an AmigaOS could do with the same hardware! And for less money, etc.
Kevin Orme
amiga university
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