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[News] Amiga threatens Rainer BendaANN.lu
Posted on 01-May-2000 09:12 GMT by Christian Kemp21 comments
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Ralph Ewers wrote in to inform me of a message in the German AC-Forum. Aparently, Cloanto contacted Amiga Inc. on the subject of Rainer's homepage, where he stores, among others, support files that were originally part of the former ComBo (Commodore mailbox). While Rainer had/has, among others, copies of most Workbench disks on his site, many German Amiga users can certify that he did this purely to support the Amiga and provide backup copies of files everybody should have anyway... definately not your usual warez site, and therefore it shouldn't be treated as such, in my opinion. Here's Rainer's first posting, in German:

Amiga Inc. holt aus....

.....nach Jahren des Tiefschlafs ist Cloanto zu Amiga Int. gegangen und hat sich doch tatsächlich über die Files meiner Webseite "beschwert".....Erklärungen haben nichts geholen :-), nun kam die Mail von Amiga Inc., die Files zu entfernen, der Internet-Provider sei bereits informiert und wenn ich es dann immernoch nicht tue, würde man rechtliche Schritte einleiten.....auweia.....oder auch "good morning, Amercia".....oder war das Vietnam ?......

In a later posting, he said:

.....mich "stört" eigentlich wieder nur die Art und Weise. Im entsprechenden Teil meiner Story hab ich ja auf die Umstände hingewiesen, die überhaupt dazu geführt haben, warum die Sachen per Box/Web verfügbar gemacht wurden. Ich werde auf rechtlicher Seite sowieso klären lassen, wie es sich damit verhält (ich denke ähnlich Patenten), wenn niemand seine Patentrechte über Jahre "verteidigt". Gary Peake meint nun nach Jahren den Hammer rausholen zu müssen, inzwischen stehen im Verteiler seiner Mail(s) neben Petro, T-Online und Bill McEwen. Ich denke, sie überziehen arg.

Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 1 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Remco Weg on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
Old AmigaOS software should most definitly be available somewhere. Thanks to this
link I FINALY was able to download Kickstart 1.x for my Amiga 1000 B-)
Though I think that the availibility of AmigaOS 3.1 is questionable, since it's
still available and is needed to install 3.5. Besides, not every Amiga was released
with AmigaOS 3.1. The same goes for the AmigaOS 3.1 Kickstart Files.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 2 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Mememememmmeeeee on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Remco Weg):
|Though I think that the availibility of AmigaOS 3.1 is questionable,
|since it's still available and is needed to install 3.5. Besides,
|not every Amiga was released with AmigaOS 3.1
Required to install 3.5? I don't think so - it's on the cd. It doesn't matter if the system has 3.1 sw installed or not. The roms are a different jug of ale entirely...
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 3 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
I don't wish to question the motivations of the site owner (his intentions may have been good on honorable, I don't know), but Cloanto does sell a legitimately licensed product, the Amiga Forever emulation package, that does include old and new licensed AmigaOS components for use with Amiga emulation.
By providing similar (or same) files on a website, someone is clearly handing out copyrighted material that allows people to use Amiga emulation without purchasing Amiga Forever, and thus committing software piracy.
You can question the effect of this on Cloanto's sales all you want, but it is still software piracy and Amiga Inc. has every right to ask for the removal of the said material, as does Cloanto.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 4 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Nian on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to the later comment, I believe that with respect
to Cloanto's AmigaForever the actual copyright has absolutely
no valid place in this situation, to have any amulator on an
amiga you MUST have the ROMS if you don't have them then the
emulator does nothing, as this is the key part of the amiga
operating system and the amiga already has this on the motherboard
and not as a file the software provided on the page has no effect
on Cloanto, if you don't suply the rom the emulator does not work
if you suply the DISK'S to Workbench then the amiga will work.
As AmigaInc are complete prats when it comes to allowing anything
to survive on the real amiga system then $^%$!! them.
If I own an old amiga I want the right to get a copy of its needed
disks when my current disks die.
Remember, emulation No work with NO ROM'S. NO ROM'S NO GO.
Amiga WITH ROM'S NO need for ROM images NO need to buy Amiga Forever
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 5 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Remco Weg on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
My opinion is that every Amiga owner should be able to get access to Workbench
and Kickstart disks that where ORIGINALY supplied when they bought their Amiga.
(I personally made DMS files of my original disks just in case). If you buy
a secondhand Amiga without Workbench and/or Kickstart, you should be able
to get this software somewhere for free.
Therefore it's my opinion that Workbench should be freely available untill version
3.0. And Kickstart disks to version 2.x. So, Amiga Inc. should place these files
on their FTP Server. It's the least they can do to support the Classic Amiga.
AmigaOS 3.1 is included in AmigaOS 3.5.
Kickstart FILES are a complete different thing. Kickstart FILES make it possible
to run Amiga emulators on computers (like Amiga Forever and UAE). Making these
files available for downloading makes it possible to run an Amiga emulator
without ever buying an original Amiga (or ROM's) !!
Thus the Kickstart FILES are the key point here. Workbench (or AmigaOS) is simply
worthless without the Kickstart FILES. However, Amiga owners allready have a
Kickstart ROM. For these owners Workbench should be downloadable to replace
damaged or missing disks. Because owning an Amiga entitles you to at least the
Workbench version which was originaly supplied with the Amiga. Because that
is what you paid for when you bought the Amiga (even secondhand).
To be short: He must remove the Kickstart FILES. And Amiga Inc. should place the other
stuff on their own FTP Server to support the existing Amiga base (and then also the
other stuff can be removed from the site).
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 6 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Remco Weg):
He has no romfiles there and only offered the official CBN WB disks
which were always free for amiga users.
He was the guy who build up CBM .de`s official support mailbox
where people could download all these files legally so people
can get the things without bothering their dealers.
Furthermore even Petro gave him his blessing for offering the
files afterwards.(whatever that means)
Amiga Inc. should be ashamed of themselves for threatening him
for this service and i've already promised Benda my support
against Amiga Inc.
I hope others will stand behind him to show the current owners
there`s a thin red line they better don`t cross.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 7 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Mememememmmeeeee):
] Required to install 3.5? I don't think so - it's on the cd. It doesn't matter
] if the system has 3.1 sw installed or not. The roms are a different jug of
] ale entirely...
Ya, but eef you chek the warez, it reqerz the 3.1 disk.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 8 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by colin wilson on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
While I agree that as Amiga owners, we have a right, and quite often a need to replace WB disks we own, unfortunately the current position means that the poor chap is probably breaking the odd copyright law or two...
If AI made the early versions of WB open source, everyone would be happy :-)
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 9 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Sven Harvey on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
These things may have been posted for the right reasons, but at the end of the day its still piracy, and encourages warez sites. Now if he had got permission before hand, fair enough. It may be worth this chaps while to get an agreement to have this stuff on his site with Amiga so its legal.
A message to anyone wanting to do this kind of thing, even if it's for the right reasons and perfectly innocent, get the copyright holders permission in writing first!
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 10 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Ben on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
His site contains material he doesn`t hold permission to distribute.
If thousands of other people did the same as him it wouldn`t be right would it? So why should he be any different? If he wants to do it then he should ask the owners. ;)
The fact that the disks should be available is not solely up to him to decide.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 11 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
What is the exact difference between Amiga users who plays with
15 years old arcade games and PC users who uses 15 years old
kickstart roms to play with WinUAE?
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 12 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Hans Wezenberg aka MzzlSiD on 30-Apr-2000 22:00 GMT
This is simply unbelievable! They (Cloanto & 'Amiga' inc) got some balls to
try and pull this off. R. Benda supported us throughout the hard years.
Made available files for our real Amigas, we could not get somewhere else.
'Amiga' inc. should reward him for that instead of bullying him around.
Then to think this comes from those UAE spreaders ....
Let 'Amiga' inc do something about those numerous ADF warez sites out there.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 13 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 01-May-2000 22:00 GMT
These are the facts in my humble opinion. Cloanto build up "Amiga forvever"
by selling stuff they didn't write, starting from UAE (which is an OSS
project) and ending to roms, interviews and other stuff that they just
collected (and payed a licence fee for).
Now, it's interesting to see how the only sites 'reported' and 'closed' are
the ones which contains the Kickstart roms, not any other type of "so called
warez" (ie. 10/15 years old ADF games). Try a search: many sites still offers
these ADF files, while roms are a bit harder to find.
Why all of this? To support Amiga? Or just to earn some more moneys from it,
while moving to another market as Amiga Forver's target are PC users (and the
nice thing is that it's addressed to advanced users, the ones interested in
latest Kickstart/wb versions, not to who just wants to get a 512kb file to
play games).
Whatever is the answer, that's business. And business requires you to build
an image. I'm not sure that's the right way to proceed, but what to do?
Nothing. Sit down and watch. We can't do anymore.
The Tamarian phrase (TNG ep. "Darmok") is appropriate: Temarc. The river
Temarc, in winter.
And, To Cloanto, I'd wish to say: Shaka, when the walls fell.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 14 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Harmless on 01-May-2000 22:00 GMT
They must be kidding. Reiner Benda has been working at the Amiga Department of Comodore-Germany for years and tryd to suppord Users even after C= was no more. They cant be serious about this...
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 15 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Janne Sirén on 01-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Gabriele Favrin):
Well, I do believe that the Amiga Explorer in Amiga Forever, and the Jay Miner interview are indeed of Cloanto's making. And BTW, getting that license was, as I have heard, not very easy and in any case they do deserve credit for making a professional emulation package, even if the emulators themselves are not by them (I do believe they have some connection to some of the authors though).
Amiga Forever CD-ROM is the ultimate Amiga backup for me. No matter what, I can always - legally - run my Amiga software, as long as I have a working copy of the said product.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 16 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Ben on 01-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Nobody is bullying anyone - he has posted something on the internet that he shouldn`t. End of story.
The debate about it (Workbench) being available somewhere IS open for discussion - Amiga Inc would surely be happy to talk about that?
If you have any information on "warez" or any other Amiga software being distributed illegally then just mail Petro who happily forwards the information to the appropriate authorities on the net and at Amiga in the USA - as I have on a couple of occasions over the last few years...
Not that I would worry too much about this site as it does seem to have honest intentions - but the point is that he legally shouldn`t be doing it!
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 17 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 01-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Ben):
I remember reading somewhere (either on one of the comments here or in the AC-Forum) that Rainer apparently had Petro's blessing.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 18 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 01-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Christian Kemp):
Fact is that CBM put the WB disks on the Combo box(their official
support mailbox for every amiga user). A service the provider of
the CBM Combo box only continued.
Fact is that Pedro gave his blessing about the offering of these
files which have no usage for non Amiga owners anyway.
Fact is that every Amigauser could get the WB disks from his
dealer to fix his system if his disks were broken.
They arne`t really useful either if they hadn`t the matching rom
which is part of their amiga hw.
And now some hypocrats have the guts to disallow something which
was official policy for about 15 years(dealers installing WB
disksets) is ridiculous.
This has nothing to do with piracy at all.
Maybe it's time to really determine who has the copyright for
the WB disks...Amiga Inc ?..really ?..then i would like to see
the contract with the Arp guys from Software Distillery for most
of the CLI tools and William S. Hawes for Arexx.
Not to speak of other parts whose heritage i`m not aware of.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 19 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Chris on 01-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Christian Kemp):
"Blessing" as in "yeah, ok, you can do it" (or the equivalent in German of course)?
Unfortunately a verbal contract is not worth the paper it's not on, if he'd had
Petro sign something saying he could do it the situation would probably be
somewhat different. As it is he has no legal proof that he has permission to do
it, without which Amiga Inc are well within their rights to take action..
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 20 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 01-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Why all these defenses to Cloanto/Amiga copyrights? Cloanto behaviour is not
consistent and not something done to defend and support Amiga. They are just
earning the last moneys from a tecnology they supported in the past.
Something more sad is the usual "honest side" of the Amiga Community, that
you can see on public discussions, "no-piracy" web sites, and so on. All
honest. All correct. "This guy doesn't have the right to...", "report pirate
sites", and so on.
Then, you dig a bit and, guess what?
One of the most used Amiga Internet clients is Amster, a Napster client. To
download MP3 versions of commercial songs.
The most used PPC programs have always been QuakePPC (the "illegal" port,
based on stolen sources), MAME (arcade emulator) and MP3 players.
And then you find out about hard-to-find Mac roms, ICQ ports obtained by
sniffing a proprietary protocol, RA ports once again based on stolen sources,
a floating "illegal" QuakeII port, and so on.
I'm pretty sure that anyone who will read or post a comment here will tell
"no, I never did these things!", and maybe it's even true. But reality is
that most Amiga users does them. And, still, on web sites only honest and
pure guys posts messages.
So? So, let's try to move the point, from piracy to the commercial side. At
the end of the day, if Amiga and Cloanto will force that useful site to
close, we will loose something, Amiga will loose something in image (see the
comments here), and Cloanto will too. But who wants to play games on WinUAE
will still find the roms in other places. They aren't interested in Jay
Miners' interview or WB disks. They want a single file, something that, in
their view, is more similar to the PSX bios to use with Bleem, than to an OS.
And they will not buy Amiga Forever, which target are advanced Amiga or ex
Amiga users.
So, isn't more useful to discuss about what/how these choices represents,
than continue to talk about this so called piracy and show how nice, honest
and correct we are all?
Sorry for the bad english, hope to be understandable.
Amiga threatens Rainer Benda : Comment 21 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Michael Jantzen on 02-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Nian):
Speaking for someone who has ripped his own romz (I've got 4 REAL Amiga's...) even after you have the rom your still a long way away from having a "Amiga Forever" type solution. I hafta admit - I never could build a solution as nice as their's - really. I think what your really paying for in Cloanto's case is the package.
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