| Update : Comment 1 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by anymouse on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT | | Dan, pay up or people may not buy the Boxer. Or shall they buy it and not pay you. I will see you at Amiwest 2000, and I hope buy then you have paid up or everyone there will know the truth... Mmmm this would look really bad on you Dan..... Bad business bad Pr.... |
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| Update : Comment 2 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT | AmigaOnline is owned by AntiGravity? Looking at their Boxer
website, is this what their definition of 'capitalism'
is then? |
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| Update : Comment 3 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Colin Wilson on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT | Just a thought - rather than breach ISP`s terms and conditions, anyone mailing these guys are probably best restricting it to one email per day each, otherwise they may risk falling foul of anti-spam conditions.
I`ve sent mine for the day :-) |
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| Update : Comment 4 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Colin Wilson on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT | Did anyone else notice that all the "Contact" links on the AmigaOnline webpage had been removed - maybe they want to avoid direct spam - awwww, tough, you`re getting it m8ys !
At least by removing the contact details from their own website they are losing potential trade who want to ask about the service before they buy :-) |
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| Update : Comment 5 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Michael Jantzen on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT | I'd say I'd boycott the boxer too, but at this rate I figure the boxer itself will cost over 1000$ just for the board.
Sorry - I've already got 350$ set aside to upgrade my existing PC to a K7 :).
However it seems unlikely that a company in another country will pay up. It reminds me of a long time ago when the Emplant people (Apple Mac Emulator of sorts made in the USA) were going after the author of Shapeshifter (Made in Germany?) sent the kid all kinds of legal documents with cease and decist requests - however nothing ever happned...
Michael Jantzen ^_^ |
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| Update : Comment 6 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 5 (Michael Jantzen):
Under $500 is bandied about for the new amiga, so keep your $350, add $150 and get something special. |
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| Update : Comment 7 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by The Great One on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 5 (Michael Jantzen):
This emplant thing was that code for code the shapeshifter code was exactly the same in parts as the emplant code and the case did not get far because of the costs. |
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| Update : Comment 8 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT | Hi All,
is anyone intrested in making a website with me about amiga companies and
individuals that rip off users?
I was thinking that all people that have been ripped off they can email there
complaint and put it towards the company or user they ripped off, than set up
a group of those complaints together and start a possible class action against
that company or user.
If your a lawyer and are reading this, would and could you be able to help us?
Reply to this message if anyone is intrested... |
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| Update : Comment 9 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Luca on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
If amigaonline.com is owned by Antigravity then I'm not surprised at all that they don't want to pay. They have a long history of customer related problems and lawsuits.
Luca |
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| Update : Comment 10 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Fabian Jimenez on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | | My advice is to also contact Bill McEwen at Amiga. He wanted to know directly if any Amiga dealer started doing cheesy stuff. Be it that AmigaOnline and AntiGravity are one in the same, it's no surprise to me. See that post on c.s.a.amiga? |
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| Update : Comment 11 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ryan E. A. Czerwinski on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | David is currently unable to check his e-mail. His phone lines are currently not functioning up to par as Bell South is tearing up the streets. Dan does not check his e-mail over the weekend, nomatter what. You will probably hear from him soon.
Please realize also that David is only employed by AmigaOnline.net and he has no control over what Dan does.
Cheers,
Ryan E. A. Czerwinski
Merlancia@merlancia.com |
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| Update : Comment 12 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Michael Jantzen on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
I'd e-mail you some interest, but you didn't leave an address.
Michael Jantzen ^_^ |
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| Update : Comment 13 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by consumer_help@egroups.com on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 12 (Michael Jantzen):
Please join this site by emailing consumer_help@egroups.com dont expect too
much at this stage. But I am looking for anyone that has been ripped off by
Amiga Companies or Individuals or any other companies, from here I can
build a web database and expose these thieves. I am looking for anyone
that can help also, if there are any lawyers out there, please join too!
This is going to be a start for protection against the consumer! |
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| Update : Comment 14 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Christian Kemp on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 11 (Ryan E. A. Czerwinski):
I didn't hear from them for a long time now. I sent them a "final warning" on
Friday (due to the time zone difference, they must have received it around lunch time) and gave them time until Monday to either clear things up or get the
cheques to me. Seeing how it is Wednesday now, and I still didn't hear a word
from them, I am assuming that they are not only refusing to pay, but also un-
willing to communicate with me on this matter.
I am aware that David is only an employee, but he was my main contact for all
previous enquiries (I never exchanged any emails with Dan except in the end
when David told me to do), so I assumed he would forward any messages. |
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| Update : Comment 15 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Muffin on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
In my opinion it should be named "AMIGAS MOST WANTED" |
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| Update : Comment 16 of 30 | ANN.lu |
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| Update : Comment 17 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by anonymous on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | I cannot believe the sh-t attitude of antigravity.com.
Awhile back, (before this banner ad scandal), I sent email to antigravity.com telling them I was very interested in buying a Boxer.
Guess what f-ckheads - take this as a retraction of that intent.
When hell freezes over!
Signed,
A Would Be Buyer Who Never Will
PS We'll all be laughing when we see the inevitable "Netscape is unable to find a server named www.antigravity.com. Please check the server name and try again." |
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| Update : Comment 18 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Eric on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 13 (consumer_help@egroups.com):
I'd suggest adding Phase 5, but I guess it's a moot point now...
--Eric |
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| Update : Comment 19 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Casey R Williams on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 17 (anonymous):
Hey, am I wrong, or are people going loco here? $500 is alot to screw someone
on a deal, but it's also alot to expect them to pay. I did not think this was a
commercial site, so how does it expect to make back $500 in 2 months? Do we all
really want to shut down AntiGrav, and kill the Boxer, just over a $500 breach of
contract? I swear, if this boycott goes anywhere, then yr all nuts. Maybe
we should all BUY something from AntiGrav so they can better afford their bills? |
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| Update : Comment 20 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Len Carsner on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | Unfortunately, this is common among the Amiga world. Amiga users will patronize almost anyone who comes along
and makes promises that they want to hear. Perhaps it is because we are so desperate at times to hear good news
that we grasp anything that shows up and cling to it in the hope that it comes true.
I hope this turns out to be a misunderstanding or some sort and things are somehow cleared up. I met the guy in
charge of the Amiga online service while at St. Louis. He seemed to be likable and pretty straight-up. And I seem to
recall that he is now in charge of some service with Amiga Inc. As I say, I hope this situation gets settled soon.
Otherwise he would be best advised to stay away from future Amiga shows.
Christian, do you think you might put up a poll on how many people have been screwed by an Amiga vendor of any kind?
Might make for interesting reading. And I think Amiga Inc. might be interested in the results. |
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| Update : Comment 21 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Christian Kemp on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 19 (Casey R Williams):
An agreement is an agreement. If you agree to pay a given amount of money for advertising, I'd expect to get that amount. You might argue as to whether it is worth it. I think it is. Others think it is not. But as soon as a company agrees to go for it, and is taking advantage of a service for over a month, they ought to pay, no?
This page stopped being a hobby after I started working. I can't afford to
spend 15 hours a week on a project that doesn't pay. I get up at 7:00 in the morning and come home after 20:00. So far, I've been online for almost two hours this evening, replying to emails, researching stuff for ANN. 2$ to the phone company. Now, multiply that by 30. 60$ phone bill, for ANN alone. More importantly, another two hours of my free time gone. I could have been reading a book, I could have watched a movie, I could have spent time with friends. Don't you think it would be fair for me to ask for a bit in return? |
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| Update : Comment 22 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by amorel on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 21 (Christian Kemp):
"stuff for ANN. 2$ to the phone company. Now, multiply that by 30. 60$ phone bill, for ANN alone.
More importantly, another two hours of my free time gone. I could have been reading a book, I could
have watched a movie, I could have spent time with friends. Don't you think it would be fair for me to
ask for a bit in return?"
I think you see things wrong here.
If you would NOT have a job it`d be more understandable that you`d like to have
money for it, as you have a lack of it. But now you got a job and can afford a new
]car and other material stuff. You maintain a website which noone ordered you to do.
I reckon you like to maintain this site, so it`s not much different than other "fun"
stuff people do in their spare time and don`t get money from(like hanging in front of the tv,
getting out with friends)
So why expect/demand money/reward from it? It is a nice side effect one could get
some income from online adverts, but that is not what you should expect or demand
on(or else you should`ve started it as some commercial buiseness.
Imho I think you seriously have to reconsider your attitude towards money.
People can do stuff for free you know, out of a favour, cause they like it, charity
etc. You don`t need to do this to feed yourself.
Also, how much those companies who screwed you may suck. Going public with their
names is as much bad behaviour and just will NOT make you appear any better.
I mean don`t lower yourself to their standards. |
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| Update : Comment 23 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by amoral_speller on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT | Yeah, "amorel", maybe he should pay Antigravity for the pleasure of hosting their fantastic ads - after all, it was so much "fun"...
Anonymous |
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| Update : Comment 24 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Shane O'Neill on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 22 (amorel):
No, I don't think he sees things wrong.
I hardly think you would feel the same if you had contracts with companies,
and they F*#!"d you over.
While ANN may be a hobby, it's still providing a service to the Amiga community.
And I don't see anything wrong with being paid for a hobby, It's an ideal
situation. It's obvious a lot of time and effort has gone into ANN and I think
Christian deserves a return. |
|
| Update : Comment 25 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Yuca on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 22 (amorel):
amorel, YOU ARE THE PERSON WHO GETS THINGS WRONG HERE. If someone puts up a website, as a hobby or not, and allows ads on this page, with contracts with the advertiser, then the advertiser MUST fulfill the contract, as Christian must, too. SO the advertiser has to pay for renting ad´s space. And if not, htis company hasto be sued, in some way or the other (legal way). Speaking out here what christian speaks out is not only okay, it is absolutely necessary. He is doing a great job, and I hope he will go on with this page!
Bye, |
|
| Update : Comment 26 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by clash bowley on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 22 (amorel):
"I think you see things wrong here.
If you would NOT have a job it`d be more understandable that you`d like to have
money for it, as you have a lack of it. But now you got a job and can afford a
new car and other material stuff."
My services are worth $50-100 US an hour - at least people seem to have no
problem paying that for my services. I'm sure Christian's time is worth at least
that much. He's a highly skilled professional with an excellent track record -
just look at this site! Why should he *donate* $100 - 400 US per *day* of his
time just to make you happy? This is the damn idiotic Linux mentality, where
a person's time is worth *nothing*!
"You maintain a website which noone ordered you to do."
Yet a lot of people seem to enjoy it. I know what numbers Moo Bunny brings in,
and ANN is approximately the same, according to what Christian has stated
before. That's a *hell* of a lot of people! ANN gone will leave a *big* hole in
a lot of people's lives. Is that worth *nothing*?
"I reckon you like to maintain this site, so it`s not much different than other
"fun" stuff people do in their spare time and don`t get money from(like hanging
in front of the tv, getting out with friends)"
I enjoy my work, but I expect to get paid for my services. So does Christian.
"So why expect/demand money/reward from it? It is a nice side effect one could
get some income from online adverts, but that is not what you should expect or
demand on(or else you should`ve started it as some commercial buiseness."
If you have something someone wants - in this case a dedicated readership -
why aren't you allowed to be recompensed for your efforts? Amiga users have
gotten used to thinking small, and thinking cheap. In the real world, people
expect to pay - in some way - for their entertainment, yet this is somehow
morally *wrong* to you?
"Imho I think you seriously have to reconsider your attitude towards money.
People can do stuff for free you know, out of a favour, cause they like it,
charity etc. You don`t need to do this to feed yourself."
Give me a *break*, Amorel! Some people need money to live on. We all can't live
in out parent's cellar, you know!
Your awful anxious to donate *Christian's* time here, Amorel. Where are you
donating your time, day after day, year after year? Are you helping on one
of the initiatives like KOSH or QNX, donating approximately 730 hours a year?
I know you're not, because I'm heavily involved in both, and I've never seen
you there! Maybe you're involved with COSA? There are a lot of people on their
ML doing nothing. How about AROS? If you're involved there, I *would* be
impressed. Those guys have been *working* for years!
"Also, how much those companies who screwed you may suck. Going public with
their names is as much bad behaviour and just will NOT make you appear any
better."
Bullshit. Now I know who to steer clear of in *my* business dealings.
"I mean don`t lower yourself to their standards."
He isn't. He's performing a valuable service by telling people who the deadbeats
are!
clash
Flying Mice LLC
clash
Flying Mice LLC |
|
| Update : Comment 27 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Christian Kemp on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 26 (clash bowley):
"My services are worth $50-100 US an hour - at least people seem to have no
problem paying that for my services. I'm sure Christian's time is worth at least that much. He's a highly skilled professional with an excellent track record - just look at this site!"
I wish I was making $50 a day with ANN though... The most I ever got,
theoretically speaking, was $23 per day over the month of April, with all
three advertisers (AmigaOnline, ImageNetworks and Remarq.com) cumulated.
So far, I only received payment from ImageNetworks. 120$, or 4$ per day.
"Yet a lot of people seem to enjoy it. I know what numbers Moo Bunny brings in,
and ANN is approximately the same, according to what Christian has stated
before. That's a *hell* of a lot of people!"
ANN served 2290 distinctive hosts yesterday and delivered 5424 pageviews.
That's with no new content added for the last few days and therefore no
notifications sent (there are between 700 and 750 subscribers on the Notify
list, I can't check specifics right now).
"ANN gone will leave a *big* hole in
a lot of people's lives. Is that worth *nothing*?"
Thanks for reassuring me. :)
"He isn't. He's performing a valuable service by telling people who the deadbeats are!"
That, and it's the only means of pressure that I have. Suing across different
countries over comparatively small amounts isn't a viable option. So exposing
strange business practices of companies in front of many thousand readers is
the only solution I still have, except from just shutting up and forgetting
about any money I am rightfully owed. |
|
| Update : Comment 28 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Adam Szymczak on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 22 (amorel):
"If you would NOT have a job it`d be more understandable that you`d like to have money for it, as you have a lack of it. But now you got a job and can afford a new car and other material stuff. You maintain a website which noone ordered you to do. "
But their are costs involved in maintaining the site. Why should Christian be penalized or not permitted from recovering those costs because he offers a service for free?
Your logic is twisted. No one ordered McDonald's to sell hamburgers and fries, yet people hand over money all the time to purchase these items. How odd?
"I reckon you like to maintain this site, so it`s not much different than other "fun" stuff people do in their spare time and don`t get money from(like hanging in front of the tv, getting out with friends) So why expect/demand money/reward from it? It is a nice side effect one could get some income from online adverts, but that is not what you should expect or demand on(or else you should`ve started it as some commercial buiseness. "
Actually, it sounds like Christian is reaching the boiling point in maintaining the site. If Christian can recover his costs in maintaining ANN, the more power to him. If a contract has been fufilled, one should be demanding payment, regardless if one is providing a service for free or cost.
According to your logic, if I sign a contract with some individual or company to renumerate me for providing a service or product and I happen to like what I am doing, I shouldn't be paid for providing the service or product? I thought it was desirable to be paid for doing something that one actually likes doing!
"Also, how much those companies who screwed you may suck. Going public with their names is as much bad behaviour and just will NOT make you appear any better. I mean don`t lower yourself to their standards."
Christian went public only after repeated attempts via private channels failed. And why is it bad behaviour to go public with their names? Some companies will just ignore your complaint, hoping (or knowing) that the individual will not take further action after the initial complaint. If, after repeated attempts, the complaint cannot be resolved and suing is cost-prohibitive, many people have but no choice to go public with the name and complaint. I see nothing wrong with this. It is no different than someone having a bad experience with a business and not recommending that business to family, friends and colleagues. |
|
| Update : Comment 29 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Christian Kemp on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 22 (amorel):
"If you would NOT have a job it`d be more understandable that you`d like to
have money for it, as you have a lack of it. But now you got a job and can
afford a new car and other material stuff."
The job doesn't change the fact that I am investing time into ANN. It only
changes the fact that I have less free time now than ever before. Since
time is a most valuable asset in my life, I feel it is only fair to ask for
a reward. Especially in a situation where everybody else is doing it, too.
I don't know many websites that are updated daily and that are not sponsored
in one way or another.
Of course, I could be doing it just for the "fame". But ultimatively, being
"famous" on the net does not amount to much, you certainly can't live on it,
and it does not affect your real life in the least. Whereas money does.
"You maintain a website which noone ordered you to do."
Of course. Nobody asked me to do this. But judging from the reactions I get
from visitors, there is a demand for a news service with interactive features.
I am providing a news service because there is a demand for it. And where
there is a demand for a service, one can also expect to be paid in one way
or another.
"I reckon you like to maintain this site, so it`s not much different than other "fun" stuff people do in their spare time and don`t get money from(like hanging in front of the tv, getting out with friends)"
Maintaining this website is not always fun. If you have a hobby, and you're
tired of it, you can just stop doing it for a month or two. If you are
providing a service, there is no way to not update at least once every few
days without people being unhappy.
"So why expect/demand money/reward from it? It is a nice side effect one could
get some income from online adverts, but that is not what you should expect or
demand on(or else you should`ve started it as some commercial buiseness."
If it was possible to run this as a commercial business, I would have done it.
I was planning to make more and more money with my various websites until they
offered me enough financial freedom to quit my daytime job. I don't see that
happening anytime soon, especially not if I am not even guaranteed the little
money I am making right now.
"Imho I think you seriously have to reconsider your attitude towards money.
People can do stuff for free you know, out of a favour, cause they like it, charity etc. You don`t need to do this to feed yourself."
You're right, I don't need ANN's income to survive. But then again, I am not
making loads and loads of money with it. As Clash said, any serious business
person asks between $50 and $100 per hour. I am investing more, and making
less. Of course, I could consider this as charity work. But with the little
time I have left, I wouldn't feel very good investing one or two out of twenty-
four hours every day, 365 days a year, into this site and not get anything in
return.
Clash compared your attitude to some of the more vocal Linux advocates. Fact
is, I am not an open source advocate, and I don't believe in working for free.
Right now, anything I do in front of a computer is work for me. Anything I
don't do in front of a computer is leisure.
"Also, how much those companies who screwed you may suck. Going public with their names is as much bad behaviour and just will NOT make you appear any better. I mean don`t lower yourself to their standards."
It's not like I didn't warn them before. I posted AmigaOnline's name after
their payment was late by one and a half months, and they didn't get back to
my emails for something like one week. Going public was the only alternative
I still had.
Between posting details and standing a theoretical chance of getting paid, or
shutting up and never hearing again from an advertiser, what would you chose? |
|
| Update : Comment 30 of 30 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Bill Toner on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 19 (Casey R Williams):
Well, I support Christian in this. I can't quite understand why someone would be so violently against
him warning the rest of us about an untrustworthy company, except of course for Antigravity in the same way
that Microsoft is telling the US government they have never done anything wrong.
Whether or not Christian has a right to charge for his services is irrelevant.
Antigravity made an agreement of their own free will. No one forced them to say they would
pay a fee. By refusing to honor their agreement, they are the bad guy, not Christian.
Geez, don't you ever feel cheated if someone refuses to honor any promise/agreement/contract/whatever
to you? If you lend some money to someone and they refuse to pay you back, would you not
feel ripped off? What this poster said was that if it's not a transaction with at least
one party being a commercial entity for the entire history of that entity's existence,
then the other party has no right to expect the agreement to be fulfilled. And this is
simply insane. It's Christian's decision if he charges or not. It's his time. His effort.
His phone bill. I think he has every right to decide whether or not he wants any money |
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