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[News] Amiga adds new content to websiteANN.lu
Posted on 03-Jun-2000 16:28 GMT by Christian Kemp40 comments
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Amiga's homepage now features an Executive Update dated 03-Jun-2000. amigatainment, as the name suggests, seems to be a new section oriented towards entertainment software. A press release on the Amiga Software Developers Kit (SDK) is now also available. Then, there's a (large, but badly formatted) list of companies selling the kit. On a related note, it seems like Ted Wallingford is once again responsible for the site maintenance.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 8 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Andrew Korn on 02-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Martin Blom):
Martin, they also promoting Java for applications to which that is suited, and C for those who want to develop that.
VPCode is assembler in the strictest sense, but it looks much more like a high level language than other assembly languages. It's the way of getting the best performance out of VP, of course, but doesn't have the developmental overheads traditionally associated with assembly. Wait 'til you get a chance to play around with it before you criticise, you may be pleasantly surprised.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 1 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by ted on 02-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
FYI the new Amiga World is up there too :)
Ted Wallingford, who's that?
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 2 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Blom on 02-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (ted):
I've not really followed Amiga, Inc.'s moves on the "new Amiga" the last year,
and reading the "The Amiga Foundation Layer" article hardly made me regret that.
This is the 21:st century, right? And they're promiting application develpment
in an assembly language?
There is one question echoing in my head that I just can't get rid of. "This
*is* a joke, right?"
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 3 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by nOw2 on 02-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (ted):
Jesus! I viewed the first Amiga World article and I saw 47KB being
downloaded. On actually reading the article, there's about 5KB of
text. Viewing the source I see that something called "Microsoft Word
9" has embedded useless, repeated HTML code for every sentence.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 4 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 02-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
You guys just whine or what?
Go to Windows or something else and give us a break!
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 5 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 02-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (nOw2):
I kind of have to agree with you there man. It isn't hard to create very clean crisp professional looking html without a wysiwyg editor. Some people might say, "Yeah, but you've been doing it for quite some time." In that case, I can just laugh and say your right, in the computer industry, six months is ages.
Clean code please. "
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 6 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by you know who on 02-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Hmm. If only the people who laid the stuff out knew HTML, then we wouldn't have a problem :)
Amiga World isn't produced by web developers, but the rest of the site is. Why don't you try concentrating on the content, quit your innane complaining, realize that Amiga Inc. doesn't have to post *anything* at all in order to operate their business, and get on the bandwagon.
The alternative is standing by as your classic amiga becomes more and more irrelevant. (Echos of four crusty 70-year-olds meeting once a month in the annex of a public library running Print Shop on a Commodore 64) If that's what you guys want to be, fine. Just be it elsewhere and stop embarassing me.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 7 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Henrik Mikael Kristensen on 02-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
I really liked that executive update.
As Bill says, it's important not to apologize for our platform or for the Amiga philosophy. I can't count for the situations where people have been laughing or shaking their head, when I said I owned and used an Amiga. And it always feels bad, when you can't get people to see that a computer can be so much more than the mainstream Wintel, we see today.
A few weeks ago I was on the virge of giving up my A4000 as I was forced to borrow a PC (I've never owned one) to work on a web-page which utilizes Macromedia Flash, currently an impossible task with an Amiga. My A4000 has a motherboard which is a tad unstable, has a slow CPU, little RAM, a slow IDE controller. Not a great machine to demo AmigaOS for Pentium III owning friends, eh? Then I would have to apologize for the condition it was in, when I wanted to show off the capabilities of AmigaOS.
I would have to explain them that the Amiga doesn't use the latest AGP graphics cards, that it can't run Windows and that sometimes it crashes, because a program went haywire and there is no real memory protection. Those facts almost made me quit; Who wouldn't want to play games with that new Geforce 2 GTS?
Also that the Windows NT workstation I have at work is extraordinarily stable (Not a single crash yet) and works pretty quickly and smoothly. I figured: "Why stick to that old Amiga? This one clearly runs much faster, it's stable, it gets the job done." I was making a pact with the devil. I kept thinking: "Was I constantly kidding myself? Was it me, and not the Wintel user who had been living in the dark?"
I had forgotten the words: "Only Amiga makes it possible." and "If you can't beat'em, join'em" was now ringing in my head.
I realized when I read that executive update how sick and tired I am of apologizing for preferring a non-mainstream platform with a relatively unknown OS. It's time to be proud of being part of that philosophy again, and that you show that you like it and encourage others to try it.
The next time, people laugh, I will ask them, if they have ever seen a computer working at the fullest of its capabilites.
The next time, someone asks what computer they should buy, I would probably say: "Try an Amiga..." ;-)
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 11 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Henrik Mikael Kristensen on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (EON):
I know this guy. He's really good. Give it a shot! :-)
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 12 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Yes, but can anyone in the world get though to http://www.amigadev.net/ or whatever it is?
I liked the latest AmigaWorld article on the Tao VP code, including the example. Clears a lot of stuff up.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 13 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Marco Ridoni on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
If you look at section 7 of the new AmigaWorld, it states that there is no support for memory protection...
Oops :-(
Marco Ridoni
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 14 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Marco Ridoni):
So what. Windows has memory protection, does it make it more stable? Same for BeOS, most program crashes coused complete system crash.
Or maybe I have bad luck.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 15 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Marco Ridoni on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Anonymous):
Sorry, but your point is about the same as Amiga's, and simply it doesn't sound convincing. Under Classic Amiga/Win9x/MacOS every program whiche crases can easily bring havoc to the whole system. Linux or NT do not suffer (heavily) from this. Please, let's not restart a whole thread about bad programming practices and do-it-yourself applications which are supposed to be the cause of system crashes. Simply put, systems with memory protection are less prone to crash than systems without it. This is not a point of view, but merely a matter of fact.
All the best
Marco Ridoni
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 16 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by metamiwoo on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
I'm sorry but AmigaWorld didn't say that...
They said that Memory Protection wasn't inculde in the OS but available through software !
And clearly, with the architecture of Amy, I think it's a very intelligent choice.
It's typically the Amiga philosophy : you have the choice ! If you're good and make safe code, write in VP...
if you're not, write in Java...:)
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 17 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by NEO on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Okey winers. Is it really so smart to complain about it not having memoryprotection...? I mean you havn't seen the piece! Maybe theres no need for it! Remember... This is NEW stuff. No Wintel shit. Try it b4 complaining!
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 18 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Doh. It seems Amiga still can't get their act together on decent webmastering. The new dealers listing, for instance, is a crying shame. How amateurish can one get?
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 19 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
I think for developers of hardware and software the new Amiga environment
is simply amazing. This system finally allows binary compatibility on
any OS and any hardware using any programming language you want. I can't
wait to learn VP and start coding some great stuff. This really is
astounding. I mean, you can run it pure for max performance or if
you need another OS for some obscure reason, then run it on top of
that with superior performance than the hosting OS, Amazing!
I wonder if translaters could be made to convert say 6502, z80 and 68K
assembler code to VP for use by emulators? That would be phenomenal.
I am very excited about the return to fast, small, versatile and efficient
computing. All the best to Amiga!
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 9 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by ted on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Andrew Korn):
Thank you Andrew--finally somebody who GETS IT.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 10 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by EON on 03-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Regarding the website I made a proposal to develop a new website and image for amiga. First Bill seemed interested but I got no answer on my second email.
I'm now starting a developers network. It's not an amiga developers network but since I have strong roots in the amiga scene I intend to invite you amiga developers to join us.
The goal of the network is to share knowledge and workforce to realise our ideas and projects. I have several people already, who have great ideas but have no idea how to realise them. Thats where the syndicate project comes in.
The network will not work without help from you and other developers.
But the foundation is there. No it's just time to support it.
email me at:
eon@syndicateproject.com
The website is not up and it will take a while to develop it with the aid from the syndicateproject people we already have.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 22 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Steve Zoneff on 04-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (MagicSN):
Maybe the Tao "virtual processor" does not include a "vitual MMU" ?. Maybe memory protection is not even possible under this environment.
This does concern me a lot.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 23 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by learn to read on 04-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Steve Zoneff):
LEARN TO READ. As has been indicated repeatedly since the day Tao was announced, memory protection is an element of the host operating system, not the media compatibility layer.
Quit resisting the new and sounding like a bunch of stodgy old-school, past-tense thinkers. Get outside the box and realize that THINGS ARE CHANGING.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 24 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by paulT on 04-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Am I the only one who noticed that Bill McEwen counts like a programmer? "Today is June 3, 2000, the six month anniversary of our first day of operation as the proud new owners of Amiga." Unless one is counting up from zero/zed, June 3 is _five_ months after January 3. Methinks he started his birthday celebrations a little before he composed that EMail.... %)
I hope he gets anniversaries a little more right in his true life, it can cause some serious problems with significant others to miss out on those dates.
pT
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 25 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by PAY ATTENTION on 04-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (learn to read):
And what happens when it is self hosted?
PAY ATTENTION!
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 20 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Robin Southern on 04-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
God!
I go away a week. Amiga back on the ball! What next Microsoft to split up.
Yes!!!???!!
What is the world coming to. :-)
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 21 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by MagicSN on 04-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (NEO):
Hi!
Just want to point out: If you do not have memory protection, you won't get
Virtual Memory... and Virtual Memory *is* required...
Just think about something like that... let's assume someone wants to port
Unreal Tournament or Quake 3 to the new Amiga... Unreal Tournament requires
on a Mac more than 100 MB *real* memory, even AS the Mac supports Virtual Memory.
Quake 3 requires (real+virtual memory) around 128 MB. Future titles might
require more maybe ? And games are just ONE sort of applications which
require Virtual memory...
We need Virtual memory, and I can't see how virtual memory should be possible
without Memory Protection...
I think they have to redo this decision.
Steffen Haeuser
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 29 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Ed on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Quoting the executive update:
"The New Amiga SDK is available through local retailers for $99.00,
and from the Amiga web site, Amazon.com ..."
Funny, Three days later and Amazon.com's search engine can't find
either Amiga or SDK in their software area?
If you're going to use Amazon.com to "legitimize" your PR statements,
you could at least make sure they're ready for folks to come and look
for your product....
sigh,
-Ed
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 30 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Jim Ross on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
What I did not see is what about Classic AmigaOS, will development support be on the amigadev site as well, since it should be.
JR
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 31 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
If virtual memory can not be implemented seperately
from memory protection then explain why the current
Amiga system has at least two seperate applications
to implement virtual memory. (Vmem, GigaMem, ImageFX)
I have tried these programs and they seem to provide
virtual memory quite nicely on the current Amiga
that certainly does not have memory protection.
I agree that an MMU may be necessary, but I believe
that this is an issue of hardware not software.
I think if current Amiga OS can be made to support
VMEM then Tao/Elate certainly can as well.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 32 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
If Quake3 needs hundreds of megs of
virtual memory then explain how it is able to
run on a ~16MB Sega DreamCast console. It is
planned for release soon. The DreamCast
versions of PC games have been mostly superior
to the PC versions so far. (without VMEM)
Well, anyway my point is that I think VMEM and
memory protection are not necessary for any
computing device unless it is old, poorly designed,
poorly implemented and poorly coded. Just my opinion.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 33 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Janice Daigle on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
How come it always sounds like people are using
windows problems with memory and inefficient
operation as a comparison base to AMIGA?
Just because other OS's need something like
memory protection, doesn't mean that a totally
new OS needs it. Why can't we have something
better and quit looking at old windows stuff.
I see better games running on small consoles
and they don't hog resources like win or mac OS.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 28 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Kelly Samel):
Hi!
1. Virtual Memory cannot be implemented without Memory Protection, it cannot
be implemented seperately. You need to "catch" the access to a not
existing memory address using the MP to "forward" it to the Virtual
Memory. Actually all modern CPUs have nice hardware support for
implementing Memory protection: This is called the MMU.
2. Virtual Memory is at least ESSENTIAL for one sort of Applications: Games.
That means: New games. Titles on "current" 3D Engines on PC or Mac like
the Quake 3 Engine or the Unreal Tournament engine require between
100-300 MB of memory to run. Without Virtual Memory an IMPOSSIBILITY.
And there are other applications asides from games which also are very
demanding concerning memory.
BTW: It is very likely that new game engines (still in developement) will take
even more memory. The reason is simple: With 3D Chips getting faster and faster
games are done with higher resolutions, more detailed textures, models with
higher polygon count. Naturally this needs more memory.
Steffen Haeuser
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 27 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
I am not too worried about memory protection or virtual
memory. Memory protection simply does not protect the
system in a way that makes a big difference, judging
from the stability of windows. It is better to use
tools such as enforcer to help while writing an application.
Good coding is much more important than memory protection.
It is just as annoying for one task on a machine to crash
even if it does not bring down the whole system. Virtual
memory is not dependent on memory protection being available
it can be implemented seperately, but judging by the
efficient nature of Tao/Elate and Amiga layer it will
not be neccesary to have hundreds of megs of virtual memory
clogging up the system. Remember good coding solves both
of these problems that are so prevalent in the industry.
(instability and ridiculous memory consumption)
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 26 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (learn to read):
Hi!
So the host OS overtakes the MP... what does this mean ? It means that the
AmigaOS will be running in a task of the Host OS and if a "bad thing" happens,
only this task (which is AmigaOS !!!) will crash, and no other tasks of the
host OS. But I would say if we run AmigaOS we do not care about other tasks
of the host OS, but only about tasks of AmigaOS... and naturally, MP of the
Host OS cannot prevent any bad things in the Multitasker of the AmigaOS
(which runs as one task of the Host OS). Added to this, there is the
possibility, that Elate runs self-hosted... I always understood it the way
that the "hosted" possibility is mainly now for the developer machines.
"Selfhosted" probably will save a lot of memory, for one thing...
Steffen Haeuser
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 37 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Akhar on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
I think you are all heading in the wrong direction the AmigaNG platform is not an OS but an OE where OSes are integrated and devices too. What this means is the Amiga is the glue that will link everything else. Games will not have to be played on an amiga comuter but on a specialised platform like the dreamcast!!
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 36 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Kelly Samel):
Hi!
Sorry, but these are FACTS. You can check the memory usage of such games
on existing PC/Macs. And tell me: *Where* do you want to store this model
data ? You can check on every 3D Gaming site how much data even *one* model
is (for Heretic II/THF for example a model is around 4 MB sized - *one* model).
If you say "the game has to fit in 16 MB" this means even if you have no
level data, no executable, no AI data, no sounddata and no whatever, you still
would be limited to a maximum of *four* models at one time in memory.
It is a FACT that games like Unreal Tournament won't run with less
then the noted memory...
Of course on a famous console were VERY VERY VERY many sales are done you
can invest the developement time to do a VERY special version, you still will
get much money back. Of course for Consoles you also have (at least for PS2
you have) these ultra-fast bus-systems, which might improve the situation
for "on-demand-loading". And often the detail level of the graphics is reduced
for console versions... it is really a totally different situation...
You suggest using the MMU - but I thought you were AGAINST any way of memory
protection :) What does the MMU do ? Protect a certain memory area against
access... okay, the purpose of what it is done is a bit different from what
is done for "memory protection for stability issues". But the same sort of
things is done... and always remember... Elate will be there on completely
DIFFERENT hardware... if the Memory Protection is not in the OS what do
you suggest ? Someone writing MMU Support for half a dozen different CPUs ?
That sort of stuff has to be *in the OS*. This is *OS functionality*.
Reduce performance of games ? No. Actually it will raise performance. As
if you don't have it you have to do nasty hacks to reduce memory needs
which will *not* have good results on the performance (if they are possible,
that is... what is surely not always the case...).
About "Bulky PC titles" - have a look at the source of some OpenSource PC titles
available... often these 3D Engines are VERY well developed and optimal
in performance behaviour. What I am trying to tell you all the time is that
the problem is not the CODE. It is the DATA, or more likely the SIZE of the
data.
New games designed for the Amiga system in mind ? Dream on. All game developement
these days is done with MULTI PLATFORM in mind (with exception of maybe Consoles
which are usually exclusively for the specific gaming console). And what should
a possible Amiga Games firm say to the original maker of the 3D Engine,
"We need another 6 months developement time due to some absolutely ridiculous
constraint of the Amiga system which other systems do not have" ? And from
the game coders point of few having to do without Virtual Memory really has
NO ADVANTAGE. It has only the disadvantage that the specs for the system
(requiring more physical memory !!!) will be higher, reducing the number of
potential customers.
I suggest to continue this discussion on private email.
Steffen Haeuser
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 35 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Well, I will agree that such things should be
possible, but still think they aren't really
that big a deal. It is sad to think computer
hardware is so far behind that a game console
with 16MB of ram can run games in 640x480
resolution at 60fps and computers with
1000MHz or G4 Altivec processors can not compete.
You can even hook the DreamCast to a VGA monitor
and run it in 31KHz. I know that the modern RenderWare
3D engine has already made appearances in games
for this console. (trickstyle for example)
I think even very complex games should
operate within 32 - 64MB ram easily when using
a newer and better hardware and software design.
However I also think that for hardware with MMU
support a kind of VMEM should be possible, whether
it is based on page swapping or not, as long as it
is fast enough to be useful. I just hope it is not
a requirement to use it since it would diminish
the performance on MOST if not all apps and games.
I understand your concern however coming from a
position of porting bulky PC titles to smaller
ram/hardware systems, but I am thinking more about
new games and apps that could be designed for
an Amiga/Tao compatible system in mind to begin with.
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 34 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Kelly Samel):
Hi!
About the two comments about my comment:
1. It *is* a software problem. Tao Elate is HARDWARE INDEPENDENT, so you
cannot assume "Well, every CPU is a 680x0 CPU and has a 68851 or compatible
MMU, so I can access it like this". An MMU on a 68k works totally different
to an MMU on a PPC or an MMU on a x86 or an MMU on a MIPS or whatever.
So either you could support Swap Space only on ONE specific hardware
platform, or you have to include support into the OS. And as it is an
OS feature, it SHOULD be in the OS. You need it anyways...
2. What do you think a MMU does ? It checks all memory accesses, and if
a access to a certain memory area is accessed, this access is "forwarded"
to a harddrive area... if Amiga don't want MP and are consequent, they
cannot allow this...
3. VMM is not really Virtual Memory... it is Pageswapping...
4. Amiga wants to do a "new computing" and a "clean design". This is definitely
not the time to introduce more hacks and kludges... this time they have
to do things correct from the start.
5. Among Gaming Consoles... one reason is that they have MUCH lower resolutions,
most games actually run in Lowres - or the detail level gets reduced - this
reduces the amount of data a lot. But the future Amiga (whatever hardware
it will use) *has* the hardware needed, it has a harddrive, it has a MMU...
so why not using it ? Now I do not know the Dreamcast, but I know the
architecture of the PS2 (at least at a very basic level), and there you
also have LOTS of parallel-running bus-systems which operate at VERY
high data throughput (several 128 Bit Busses which can be accessed at
the same time, and some more slower Busses which also can operate at the
same time). On the PS2 - at least in theory - you can get a lot of data
"on demand" which you normally have to cache. On a "normal" system this
is not possible. And of course developing for PS2 is like having the
permission to print money... bit a different situation also from the
money+developement time you have available. But I fear even there some
titles might be VERY hard to do (luckily for those developers - at least
if the rumours I heard are true - the US and Europe versions of PS 2 will
have a harddrive and (!!!) Virtual Memory... Well, it is only a rumour
of course...)
And to confirm my claims about high memory usage by games: Just go to someone
having a PowerMac and try to run Unreal Tournament giving it in the
"Information" less than 100 MB RAM. It will not run. Or run Quake 3 on a
NT System of a PC friend and check the Mem Usage using the Task Manager
of NT.
And this is definitely not about bloated OSes... the game data takes the memory.
Well, when I had the first executable for THF (the multiplayer Addon for Heretic II I
was porting) ready it did not even run on my 96 MB equipped Amiga. It just said
"Out of memory". It was a LOT of work to reduce that down to 50-60 MB. And believe
me, such a reduction is not always possible.
3D Hardware gets better and better. This has the effect that game developers
use higher and higher screen resolutions, and bigger polygon counts, and more
textures - to make the games look much more realistic. First 3D Shooters (Wolfenstein
for example) just mapped textures to 2D-Sprites... this does not take much memory,
you just have to store some textures... modern games use for EVERY different
monster a different 3D-Model (complete with it's own 3D Data and it's own
textures). And you cannot always load those "on demand". You have to store a lot
of this stuff. This takes *memory*.
And of course, imagine you licensed a game for a port... usually you have a time
when you should be finished with the port... do you want to say "Well, I need
6 more months as I have to turn the whole engine upside down as my system does
not support Virtual Memory" ? And maybe at the end you don't manage to get the
memory usage down enough - there ARE limits for the trickery, and all tricks
you do will probably reduce the speed of the game also, for extra loading time -
and due to horrible RAM demands you limit the field of your possible Customers ?
And of course if you do a lot of hacks and stuff to reduce memory needs this
adds a lot to the developement time... you could already start on the next game
in this time...
For me it is no question - MP+Virtual Memory have to be added. Maybe it is a good
thing this came out "early".
Steffen
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 39 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 07-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
I completely agree! ;)
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 38 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Jerald J.Smith on 07-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Reply to comment 36:
I'm sorry, but I can tell you have no experience putting together such a complicated project as a video game, especially for anythig other than a Windoze machine.
First of all, we still use packers to squeeze alot of data (not much code is squeezed anymore, but some still do) to avoid the bloat problem that too many PC developers
seem to ignore. When writing arcade software for an embedded system, everything is munched, crunched, packed, shrunken, and stuffed to fit the ROM limits. Yes, the ROM
costs more money, so there's a bigger reason. :-) Oh, and on CD systems we cache as much as we can without hindering performance. If you write good routines, and if the
hardware is fast enough (nowadays I'd go out on a limb and say even PC hardware can be rgged :-) then there shouldn't be any problem.
I for one am against "memory protection" simply because I don't need it. I suppose when you have a platform with a slow, bloated OS, in which everyone and their grandma are
trying to write software using all kindsa utilities that would better serve the experienced, I guess MP would be mandatory. However, I cannot see current or even future Amigans
coding in such a nonchalant (sic) manner, nor should the Amiga community accept it! Just like the PC world shunned trackloaders, and Amigans were encouraged to design software
based on the Style Guide, I think programs that are just coded horribly or perform terribly should just take a trip to the ol desktop trashcan, while the good progammers and their
software be praised.
So please, stop using those rediculously huge 3D engines and their supported data formats as the base for what is needed. I'm one of just many coders, mainly Amigans and Atarians,
that can tighten up all the loose ends those PC wizards leave. 64MB is all I get at work. :-)
-Jerald
Amiga adds new content to website : Comment 40 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by MagicSN on 08-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Jerald J.Smith):
* So please, stop using those rediculously huge 3D engines and their supported data formats
* as the base for what is needed. I'm one of just many coders, mainly Amigans and Atarians,
* that can tighten up all the loose ends those PC wizards leave. 64MB is all I get at work. :-)
But that is ABSOLUTELY *unrealistic*. I see this from a PRACTICAL point of view.
There is NO WAY we can compete against the "big engines" which have been optimized
for MANY years with TONS of manpower involved. The alternative would just be giving
up game-implementation on the Amiga at all.
The Game Devloper Scene has CHANGED in recent years. The days of the 1-man-teams
who work on something completely on their own and produce a big hit are GONE.
Stuff like LithTech or the Quake 2 Engine is BIG TECHNOLOGY which brings your
business BIG ADVANTAGES if you use it. These people are working since YEARS on
that stuff... no chance that you - in a few months - come up with something
only half as decent. Okay, you can throw in more manpower - but why, if you do
not really need ... the technology you need EXISTS out there already.
Packing... might be useful on certain kinds of games...
but not really changes the situation about "fps games" much. The involved data
is just too big and there is too much data which has to be ready for usage...
or they even already use Packing and are still "big". You have to see that
especially the Video Accelerator technology advanced a LOT. Means bigger
resolutions, more polygons - much more DATA.
And of course there is the issue "What do we loose with Virtual Memory" - nothing.
To include a MAJOR FLAW into the new OS just because of some hacker-mentality
would be madness... especially as with MMUs there *is* hardware-Support for
implementing these kind of things into an OS existing... why not using this ?
You use other system resources (CPU, FPU, physical Memory...) also...
But I am looking positive at the future that Amiga will
find a good way for the solution of the problem.
Anonymous, there are 40 items in your selection
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