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[News] Wired and The Register on Amiga SDKANN.lu
Posted on 06-Jun-2000 19:35 GMT by Christian Kemp29 comments
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Several people reported in the unmoderated section that Wired has a badly researched article on the Amiga SDK. The Register recently posted a much better overview.
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 1 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by bruce welch on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
When the major source of the article is anti-gravity, then one can expect it to be mostly bumpf. One more reason for not reading wired (as if I needed any more).
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 2 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Besides, AntiGravity want you to buy the super vaporware boxer. I
think you'll find Amiga's SDK is a bit more than AntiGravity make
out...
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 3 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by anymouse on 05-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Dan is discruntled and does not pay his bills. Do you really think he would be happy about anything these days. Unless he gets that vapore Boxer out, he is toast!!!
Another annoying fact about the Wired article is, they make it sound if though the Amiga is a 500 Mhz AMD system; they neglected to mention that it was a developer system and no way represents the future hardware for the Amiga.
WIRED SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 21 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Come on guys.....Everybody knows that this eleta thing got nothing to do with Amiga......
If you want another OS...try linux... way more apps, games, stuff then this "amigaNG" will ever have....
If you like the amiga how it is/was then continue to support it and buy the Amijoe....who knows what the future will bring......
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 20 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Kevin Orme on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Is it useful to think of the Amiga NG OS as a 'Max Headroom' of operating systems (to make another tired 80's analogy), able to morph onto different hardware and underlying software as needed, but also able to offer more productivity and power than others before (as it unfolds in Amiga Inc.'s plans)?
To those who would say that the classic Amiga is old and outdated, sure there are features of it that need an update or a bit of a rework, but we wouldn't even be arguing about this topic if it weren't already proving its original design was WAY in advance of anything else at the time (or since). The fact that we can build websites, 3D renders, make music, video, etc. STILL in ways unmatched in the industry, despite lame marketing and industry perception proves the concept has always had value and the machine(s) still around can still be used for many more years. Classic Amigas don't get 'less powerful' just because a Wired article says they do! :)
While there may be standards (OpenGL, xml, etc.) that are either on top of their respective areas or in ascendancy, the Amiga has proven time and time again that with a little work, it can support them. We just have to quit bitchin, and start pitchin (in)! :) And having more powerful PPC's to boot wil greatly help matters. Anyone heard anything lately from Met@box? They are going to be selling a lot of cards when they finally deliver them.
Kevin Orme
amiga university
www.amigau.com
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 19 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Henrik Mikael Kristensen on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (ACGREGORY):
While the original Amiga OSC, ECS and AGA hardware was ahead of its time back then, today, hardware like that would be far too expensive and labour-demanding to engineer. Back then an average computer could last for 5-8 years, because competition was not very intense and it wasn't as lucrative a business as today.
Today with highpowered graphics and CPU's you have high development time and low life time for such devices. It's said that a chip which takes 3 years to develop, lives as a top notch chip on the street for 3 months...
Imagine the daunting task awaiting a team of engineers if they are told to create a chipset which outclasses the Playstation 2's Emotion Engine. It would take years and it would last a very short time as the best out there.
Sony didn't create the chipset all by themselves, they had help from Toshiba. Both are mammoth companies with plenty of cash to spare on development.
Sony are already developing the third generation of Playstations, which will be immensely more powerful than the second one.
Full screen 24 bit animations on a PC is peanuts today and there is no jitter. You can use a playing DVD movie as a texture on a wall in a 3D game!
The new Geforce2 GTS has more features in terms of moving data and drawing than any souped up Amiga blitter would, and a Geforce 3 is under development which is to be placed in Microsoft's new X-Box slated for late 2001.
True: PC hardware is not very elegant, but it's getting outrageously fast and it's cheap.
True: Video editing is still more expensive than it could be with a good Amiga.
One can only hope that the POP architecture will catch on and be more elegant than the current ATX architecture.
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 17 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Me):
But then, most of the OS is heavily tied to:
a) the custom chips
b) the 68K processor
Isn't it just too much work to convert this to another processor? The
Hardware independency means it'll run on EVERYTHING now and in the
future. Just the core stuff needs a new recode and Tao state this
takes about 30minutes! :))
Why port singally to MIPS, PPC etc. when in 10-15 years these will be
discontinued like the 680x0?
AmigaOS is nice as someone said, but let's face it, it's not going to
fare well in the next generation of computing devices, Elate is...
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 18 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (ACGREGORY):
Why not a 24 bit blitter function in a chip?
All modern PC graphics cards have 24-bit blitters of one form or another, although they aren't as featureful as the Amiga's blitter still (the Amiga had many different modes of blitting memory around, whereas the modern PC graphics cards only have a couple). I would imagine that PC graphics cards can blit 32-bit graphics now anyway.
Of course, I want to see memcpy as a hardware function in a computer - the blitter was good for that!
Why can't we have multiple playfields instead of just 2?
Graphics chip limitations and a who cares about playfields these days attitude. On the Amiga, having a Planar display, playfields were not a hit on memory performance - you had to read 6 bitplanes anyway, that was 6 memory accesses (very inefficient, mind). Of course, if you had playfields today, they would have to be 32-bit (alpha channel for playfields would be lovely) or 16bit or whatever, which means a lot more memory reads. 3 playfields could require reading 12 bytes of memory per pixel just to send the signal to the monitor, and most RAMDACs aren't capable of doing that at reasonable resolutions. Software solutions are generally good enough anyway, and not many people would use playfields these days, not more than 2 anyway if you had a score plane and an action plane.
Why can't we have a 32 bit sound chip???
Why not? Depends on who we get to make the sound chip in the end. 32-bit audio is a bit overkill, 24-bit is very adequate. OTOH, surround sound audio is very nice - the Dolby AC-3 5.1 channel audio for example. Higher sampling rates are also desirable. So 5.1 channel 24-bit 96kHz sound is what the next Amiga should have if it is to be ahead of the competition...
Remember, the Amiga architecture is great, but the components of the architecture were designed with 1980's considerations in mind (slow expensive memory, slow processors etc). These limitations do not apply anymore.
I hope that the Tao Amiga system will be good, usable, stable and nice, with all the good Amiga OS stuff in it (datatypes, autoconfig, directory structure, etc) but with a lot more power and functionality. It might just happen... :-)
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 15 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
I have it on a good source that
The article has been taken down and a new one is being written.
Mike
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 16 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Me on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
Carl did not say that AmigaOS is not worth updating, he said that the Amiga Kernel was not worth updating. Those two statements are worlds appart.
I agree with alot of your thoughts, but throwing out everything is madness, taking the best part of the design is the way to go, why reinvent the wheel when parts of it is perfect...for example it's shape. Nuffsaid.
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 12 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Ed on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
Hmm, Anti-Gravity doesn't appear to be among those companies
listed as selling the SDK. Of course then again, Amazon.com
was specifically mentioned by name in the Press Release,
(you know the one that said "is available..." instead of "will be
available from Amiga dealers, Amazon.com, ...") but Amazon.com's
"Search for software" using "Amiga" gives the following
output:
Amazon.com Results: 9 total matches
We found no matches for the similar keyword(s) "Amiga" .
Below are results for the keyword(s) "mega" . If
you prefer, you may try another search. (snip)
And using "SDK" isn't any better with:
Software search: we were unable to find exact matches for your search for
the keyword(s) "SDK" . Would you like to search again?
-Ed
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 13 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Teemu I. Yliselä on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
And just who are you to speak on behalf of the entire or most of the community? Let alone Dan Lutz...
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 14 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by ACGREGORY on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
When we Amigans wanted a new Amiga when commodore was in charge, didn't
we want the AAA chip or the "hombre" chip or the PA-Risc chip, Weren't
those chips going to better and different than the ECS, OCS, AGA chip sets?
I do hope that the animations are not "jittery"..I do want to see the
same animation, but at a higher resolution, like 24 bit?
If someone is a tech-head please answer this question.
Why not a 24 bit blitter function in a chip? Why can't we have
multiple playfields instead of just 2?
Why can't we have a 32 bit sound chip???
Just cobble em together, get Elate to run on them and we got the
new Amiga, but also, since we have Elate we can run a chip set like
that, and still run other chips/programs, no?
I will still use my classic Amigas, they're tooooo useful for me now.
But if the new Amiga is cool and can run smooth genlockable,keyable
animations, I will be very very happy....
If it's just a more versatile PC, I may not be as happy....
time will tell
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 11 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Red Moose on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Sticking with the old is what Windows has done - and look at how that's turned out. 20 years later still with DOS at it's core. Same with MacOS - christ, they are having to replace the entire core with the BSD kernel to get to multitask properly for the first time in, well, 20 years.
Amiga and it's users have always been about innovation and trying new things. If anything, I am sick of using Windows, Macs *and* Linux (which I only use because it is free (in terms of money). I would gladly spend $99 on any new OS SDK, given that the current state of teh market is so old-fashioned and stagnant. This SDK just happens to come from people who believe Amiga was the right way of doing things.
Hence no memory-protection.
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 10 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
Please, please, please...
Add the fact that html tags isn't allowed in the comment, I just lost a very long and well formulated comment because of that, and I'm not in a good mood right now... well I begin to get over it now, but...
Anyway, I agree with the above comment.
We cannot be nostalgic, we need something new that can take the world by surprise, hardware can't do this these days, not easily anyway, and there aren't many companies in the world that have the funds to do so. The important thing here is to get an Amiga feel to things, not what hardware or software they replicate it with.
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 9 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
Why try to update AmigaOS - yes it's nice, but it has a lot of bugs in some places, esp. in ROM. There comes a day when you have to literally throw the old stuff out and start all over again.
If this is not true, then why didn't Jay Miner's bandit in 1982-1985 just do a port of CP/M or the new turk - MS-DOS (back then!) and port to 68K?? Why not? Because it was not suited to the system, and frankly AmigaOS is woefully outdated. Imagine trying to build a CPU independency layer (like the Tao VP), or a Java engine into it? It'd take more time than it's worth...
There comes a time when everything has to move on, otherwise we'd all be using DOS on PCs and Dinosaurs would roam in public parks! ;)
If Carl Sassenrath said that AmigaOS is not worth updating, which he has, why bother. It's a lot of work for minimal gains. What we are talking about here with the new Amiga is taking the Amiga philosophy on, not what Amiga and Commodore did in the early, mid 1980s.
So let's start afresh and take the Amiga philosophy with us, but not our 1980s baggage....
I'm off my soap box now....
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 8 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Darrell Hannan on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
"To improve AmigaOS ? No, they don't use its sources, they use TAO software.."
OK - There was an upgrade to OS3.5, with Boing Bag on its way afaik. With a
possibility of the OS converted PPC.
And how do you know if they aren't using any of the current OS sources in the new one?
They might be basing a huge amount of the new OS around the ideas and concepts of the
current OS but rewriting them to be far far better. Remember that the TAO stuff only
forms a foundation of all the other huge amounts of stuff thats going on top of it.
Did you read the latest news from Amiga where they mention an updated and new version
of BOOPSI?
"To build new Amiga hardware ? No, they said they wouldn't do that.."
Again, in the latest stuff from Amiga they mentioned new architecture being developed
at the moment. And what on earth could they do that isn't currently being done by
other companies dedicated to designing custom chips? Do they have better engineers and
better labs and large budgets to try to beat NVidea and their GForce stuff? Are they
going to hire a bunch of people to try to design soundcards that are better than what
Yamaha has to offer? What about that Cybergfx card? That uses a non-Amiga gfx chip!
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 7 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Tom):
You got my point. The "new" "machine" is not for current Amiga users or programmers. Despite their effort to keep the machine alive from 1994 up to today by developing inovative software or hardware extentions they can expect nothing from Amiga Inc.
Why do you think they bought the Amiga ?
To improve AmigaOS ? No, they don't use its sources, they use TAO software..
To build new Amiga hardware ? No, they said they wouldn't do that..
They did it simply to have some userbase. Because it's better to have one than nothing.
What a waste.
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 5 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Tom on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
Ok, so it's not going to be an A4000, but if it was noone outside the "community" would buy it. If you want an Amiga, keep your Classic. PC and Linux people won't be interested in backwards compatability, they've got UAE. (and there'll probably some form of emulation for the NG)
Tom
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 6 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
But, taking one person's or group's opinion and basing the whole article around that and a few scrappy and poorly researched facts is just crap Journalism. How old was this person who wrote this Wired article? 5? ;)
If would have been at least half decent if they took a number of opinion instaed of just one....
How I dispair - this isn't journalism, it's a kid wibbling....
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 4 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
The Register article did just sum up what's on the Amiga Inc. website.
The Wired article did sum up the feel of the Amiga community (the ones still using their Amiga boxes nowadays).
Amiga Inc.'s "new" software platform has nothing in common with the real Amiga as we all know it.
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 26 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Eric on 07-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (XDelusion):
:Now will the new OS bother with Game support at all?!! Please don't
:say it is only for the office guy, or us running networks.... :O(
Now what, exactly, do you think the whole "Amigatainment" section they
put up recently is all about, hmm...? Not about running networks for
sure. :)
--Eric
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 25 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Eric on 07-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Amifan):
:Come on guys.....Everybody knows that this eleta thing got nothing to
:do with Amiga......
Yes, and...?
:If you want another OS...try linux...
Er, that's not for everyone, and just isn't very fun. Taos/Elate
sounds much more interesting.
:way more
:apps, games, stuff then this "amigaNG" will ever have....
You don't know that.
: If you like
:the amiga how it is/was then continue to support it
I do. Doesn't mean I won't like the AmigaNG too.
:and buy the Amijoe....
My interest in that wanes the longer it takes to actually
get made...not looking too likely at this point. 6 months
ago I would have bought an A3000/A4000 AmiJoe in a flash.
:who knows what the future will bring......
Now THAT is a good point.
--Eric
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 24 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Henrik Mikael Kristensen on 07-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Chris):
Hmmm.... that is very interesting... :-)
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 23 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Chris on 07-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Henrik Mikael Kristensen):
About the Sony Emotion Engine, it will be available to use in computers in the beginning of 2001. Sony has stated that they will open upp the ps2 platform and allow other companies to build products with that technology.
The Emotion Engine and the Graphics Synthesizer will also come in modified configurations with more memory and with 32 Mb of memory it is capable of delivering a 4,000 X 2,000 pixel resolution. In 2002 the second version of the Emotion Engine will triple in the number of transistors, and by 2005, a third version will feature 100 million transistors.
So there's your fab hardware, it might miss some features you want, but it works directly on a tv set and hdtv, it features really fast busses and well it might not deliver as many polygons as the x-box claims to do, but there sure are no bottlenecks.
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 22 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by XDelusion on 07-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
Exactly, thankx for putting words to that idea!! :O)
My 1200 sits here awaiting a GFX card, and G4, but really, my 1200 is just a
hobby, I could live without it really, but I like it, that is why I bother, it is
just phun, though I could not live without my Linux box for sure, as for Winblows,
well I sure as hell am not going to play those old Amiga games all my life...
We got Sin now!?!?! Well that is great, but....
...it is old, and I got in on my Winbox for $15.00 with better GFX.
None the less, for those who never sold out like me! :O)
You got a few awsome games on the way, lets just hope AmiSin is not near as buggy!!!
Now will the new OS bother with Game support at all?!! Please don't say it is only
for the office guy, or us running networks.... :O(
I want ATI all in wonder Por support in it too!
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 27 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Blue Balls on 08-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Red Moose):
This SDK just happens to come from people who believe Amiga was the right way of doing things.
Hence no memory-protection.
------
Hahahahahaha LOL!
Oh yeah, and RTG was not a good idea, hence CBM never really got around to doing it even though they had plenty of time. Oh yeah, who needs more than 640K? I certainly don't since I only run Lotus 123 and Wordperfect 2.0 on my system. LOL! hahahahaha
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 28 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Robert Simmonds on 08-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Amifan):
"Come on guys.....Everybody knows that this eleta thing got nothing to do with Amiga......"
Depends on how you look at it. If you mean in terms of actual source code, hardware etc. then no, it doesnt have anything to do with amiga. However, when you look at the design and architecture of the OS, it is as groundbreaking as the first amiga was. I have never seen a reasonable attempt at an OS that is so versatile, so compatible and so ground-breaking as the new amiga OS is. To be honest, I am glad they are ditching the current OS. While it is lovely to use, things like constant crashing, lack of a decent processor etc. is really wearing it down.
"If you want another OS...try linux... way more apps, games, stuff then this "amigaNG" will ever have...."
erm, I would love to know how you can see into the future with such certainty. The industry is very much behind the amiga, as can be seen on The Register, Slashdot, Yahoo news, ZDNet etc etc. With a good OS, the continuing problems for microsoft, and cheap hardware, I think that providing it is marketed correctly, it could be a much bigger consumer based OS than the rather unfriendly Linux.
"If you like the amiga how it is/was"
You mean slow, crashy and no support? Great...
"then continue to support it and buy the Amijoe....who knows what the future will bring......"
Yes cos I love paying vast amounts of money for a piece of hardware that will have little or no support outside of the Shareware / freeware community. The only real reason to go for Amijoe is to run the new OS is you REALLY dispise x86 architecture, or if you want to run your existing apps under emulation.
Of course, you could always play MP3's and crack RC5 blocks.....
Robert Simmonds
Wired and The Register on Amiga SDK : Comment 29 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by ACGregory on 09-Jun-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Graham):
Graham, thanks for your answers.
But if the chips are as great as you say, why is it that even
when I am looking at high end stuff, I still see some jitter?
I suppose if the chips are fast enough, one could make a three
dimensional playfield seem life-like, so there would be no need
for the dual or eight or n-fold playfields, since the computer
could compute them very faster than our little ol' eyeballs could
process the image, so it would appear to be three dimensional
though it is just page flipping...
As long as the system doesn't burp like i see PC's do, when some
other task comes up......
Overall, with the speed of chip development nowadays, it would not
be a good idea to tie in your computer to just one chipset...
On the other hand, it would be at least a standard that one would
write for...
What I would liketo see is a list of "Amiga recommended chipsets"
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