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[News] Voyager for MorphOSANN.lu
Posted on 09-Aug-2000 11:41 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä74 comments
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Oliver Wagner writes in his .plan: Yes, there eventually will be a MorphOS native version of V. We've been following MorphOS development closely, and both me and Zapek were MorphOS alpha testers. No time frames for this right now, as the top priority is still to get all browsing functionality back in the AmigaOS version with the new layout engine. However, provisions for a MorphOS-native version are already in the new source tree. I think it's now obvious why we always considered "OS 3.5" and related stuff a dead end ;)
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 1 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 08-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
> I think it's now obvious why we always considered "OS 3.5" and related stuff a dead end ;)
I'm still racking my brain trying to figure out how they see it as a dead end. I'd only be interested if they continue their (miniscule and often left for dead) WarpOS support.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 2 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 08-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (the man in the shadows):
Well, compare what has been accomplished with MorphOS in approximately the same time it took to produce OS 3.5.
Fast PPC that's actually usable thanks to eliminating context switches.
That, of course, makes it useful to actually use the PPC chip for more than rendering and decoding stuff. The difference is night and day
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 3 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 08-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (the man in the shadows):
the man in the shadows wrote:
: I'm still racking my brain trying to figure out how they see it as a
: dead end. I'd only be interested if they continue their (miniscule
: and often left for dead) WarpOS support.
I don't understand what you mean here. :)
The first "they" refers to Vapor no doubt. But what is it that you
would "only be interested.." in? And whose support of WarpOS, where?
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 4 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by The Great One on 08-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
I thought AmigaOS 4 was going to be PPC native, what the heck is going on.
Most of the OS is now in C and should easily be portable.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 5 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Olsen on 08-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (The Great One):
There will be no AmigaOS 4.
There will be Elate. Thats all.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 6 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Seehund on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Mark Olsen):
Elate is already here, Amiga Inc are developing Amie (or did I miss somebody's sarcastic expression of doubts on the possibility of a new product from said company?).
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 7 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Seehund):
What about running elate hosted on MorphOS ?
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 8 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
Morphos is a dead end, a vain project. Everybody will have forgotten about Morphos in a few months...
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 9 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Olsen on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Seehund):
No, i meant that Amiga Inc. doesn't care about AmigaOS at all. There will be no new AmigaOS from them. All there is to rely on is third parties coming up with API/SW compatible systems.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 10 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
With this well educated opinion coming from "Cowards, Inc" I`m wondering
if we should stop the whole project now because you know it better
than us.
Thanks for your contribution...
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 11 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Ralph Schmidt):
You're doing a great job, guys, but I don't see where it fits nowadays...
Is there still a place for another "classic-style" operating system?
Ami is going to have an "emulation layer" for classic applications as well as MorphOS, that I meant.
Anyway, good luck :)
Regards
F.A.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 12 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Fabio Alemagna):
I generally disagree:
1) We don't really KNOW what kind of emulation layer the new Amiga will have
2) Or when it will come out.
3) Most importantly, it doesn't appear up and running (or close to it) on any current PPC Amiga.
4) MorphOS is.
5) MorphOS transparently lets you run the current AmigaOS and breaths in room for dramatic speed improvements. The following is just my personal opinion, but I've yet to see a compelling argument that makes me think any other path (Elate, qnx, etc) would make me any happier (in truth, I'll try those too, but what I really want and have a use for is a faster, better AmigaOS. That's what MorphOS is.
Mike
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 13 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Remco Komduur on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
I am not sure about this MorphOS. What about all these WarpOS programs that have come out? They won't run on it. You know that Hyperion and Clickboom( the only big Amiga games companies) are not going to support that OS. They can not possibly do that. They have to completely recompile the code. Not only that but it will also cost them a new license. It is commercially not viable.
The PPC users aren't giving them much support either. Low sales for Heretic 2, low interrest for NightlongPPC. There are 10000 PPC users and 90 percent of them would rather pirate the stuff or complain then be happy about finally getting the games and do whats right AND BUY THE STUFF!!!
Why divide the Amiga market yet again. I still do not understand this. What? A PPC OS should make things better!! The only OS that will do that is Amiga OS 4.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 14 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Remco Komduur):
> Low sales for Heretic 2, low interrest for NightlongPPC.
Well, I bought Heretic 2, but I am surely not going to pay EXTRA for a
PPC version of a game that I'm not sure I'm interested in to begin with.
Did any Mac games cost extra for the PPC versions? No, of course not.
You got the 68K version and the PPC version in the same package.
I'm interested in MorphOS but not if I can't run all my PPC stuff. Sorry
but that's the way it is.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 15 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 09-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Fabio Alemagna):
Well, let us not foirget that
(1) AInc's "compatability layer" is still 100% unknown outside of AInc, whereas MorphOS is here, now, and running on many people's Amigas very successfully.
(2) AInc's "compatability layer" will ONLY run 68k stuff - it will NOT run *any* PPC software, whereas MorphOS runs all "well written" 68k software AND PowerUp-based PPC software.
<pure speculation>
(3) If someone were to write a WarpUp emulation library for MorphOS (a la PowerUp emulation library Frank wrote for WarpUp - you remember, the library that H&P said couldn't be done) then MorphOS could then even run WarpUp PPC software too.
</pure speculation>
Just mho, of course :)
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 16 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Mike):
> 1) We don't really KNOW what kind of emulation layer the new Amiga will have
and so? Do this mean that there wont be one? You don't know it, but it (will) exists.
> 2) Or when it will come out.
what kind of question is that? It will come out when come out Ami...
> 3) Most importantly, it doesn't appear up and running (or close to it) on any current PPC Amiga.
Ami will run on PPC too, I don't see any reason to don't make it run on PPC amiga. In any case the PPC amigas are the minority of the ALL archtectures where AMI can runs on
> 4) MorphOS is.
MorphOS is not much more tha a 68k emulator at this time. AROS is too, if this is your point.
Regards
F.A.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 17 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Ralph Schmidt):
>With this well educated opinion coming from "Cowards, Inc" I`m wondering
>if we should stop the whole project now because you know it better
>than us.
>Thanks for your contribution...
I wouldn't thank you enough if you stop, my dear.
This kind of project is killing the Amiga instead of giving new hopes. Now, basic users will hesitate between PowerUp, WarpOS and Morphos. We should see versions of Voyager for 68k, PUP and Morphos.
Thanks to stupid, nevertheless competent, guys like you, living with AmigaOS for basic users has become MUCH more complicated than Windows or Mac, thus less efficient and attractive.
I do think my dear you're responsible for another little (but lethal ?) strike to the agonising Amiga.
My respects.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 18 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Fabio Alemagna):
>MorphOS is not much more tha a 68k emulator at this time. AROS is too, if this is your point.
You don`t know what you`re talking about.
That way it`s not much fun for me to rip your
opinions apart as they are so obviously wrong.
So *please* next time inform yourself.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 19 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Anonymous):
>This kind of project is killing the Amiga instead of giving new hopes.
>Now, basic users will hesitate between PowerUp, WarpOS and Morphos.
> We should see versions of Voyager for 68k, PUP and Morphos.
so where were you when H&P did what they did....i`m sure it was
*great* in your reality. Or where were you when Picasso96 was
released...following your thought path you must have outcried
"Stop them...they kill the Amiga".
>Thanks to stupid, nevertheless competent, guys like you, living with
>AmigaOS for basic users has become MUCH more complicated than Windows
>or Mac, thus less efficient and attractive.
Ahh..and you`re the intelligent, nevertheless clueless guy on this
playfield ?
Instead of you i worked on fundamental AmigaOS software and hardware
without "basic" users would have left the amiga market years ago.
Most of the Phase5 product portofilio wouldn`t have existed without
Gerald Carda, Thomas Rudloff, Frank Mariak and Ralph Schmidt.
(From Fastlane SCSI, first 68060 accelerator, first truecolour
RTG for AmigaOS to the PowerPC boards)
Phase5 was the Amiga base system innovator for the Amiga market
since CBM died....
>I do think my dear you're responsible for another little (but lethal ?)
>>strike to the agonising Amiga.
You obviously haven`t understood the dimension of this thing and
what possibilities it will give developers and also users unlike
powerup/warpup.
Now it`s possible to compile every system component and applications
native because the whole base enviroment allows it.
It offers developers the functionality a PPC AmigaOS would.
PowerUP was always a stopgap...a quick method to give developers
some portable way to access faster cpus but with the limitations
that you couldn`t really make use of it for complex apps/system
extensions.
People like you only think in pseudo political simplificiations
as they are unable to understand the basics here or are following
some idiology.
If you don`t like what i do because it doesn`t fit into your
world....so what...i don`t care.
I`m not on a mission to enlighten close minded people.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 20 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Ralph Schmidt):
Ah :) The great Laire is back, so selfish, so egoist, I must admit I missed you a bit.
Anyway, with the arrival of AMI, Morphos will be dead in a few months, despite your couragous but vain efforts, and we will all start again on something new.
Please, please, answer me again with you "style", it's so good...
Regards
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 21 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ralph Schmidt):
> You don`t know what you`re talking about.
oh, dude, would you want to say that MorpOS at this point of his completition can run /without/ the AmigaOS installed?
I KNOW perfectly what it is going to be, I in fact said that *at this* point it's not much more than a mere emulator.
> That way it`s not much fun for me to rip your
> opinions apart as they are so obviously wrong.
eheh :) Tell me where I'm wrong, please... What MorphOS offers that AMI will not offer?
> So *please* next time inform yourself.
I read all that you let us to read about it. If I'm wrong please explain your self better.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 22 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Ralph Schmidt):
> first truecolour RTG for AmigaOS
cough cough.... aren't you too presumptuos? Don't you know EGS?
> if you don`t like what i do because it doesn`t fit into your
> world....so what...i don`t care.
Definitely this isn't the best way to convince ppl that you're doing a good job...
instead of explaining your points you care only about fighting...
> I`m not on a mission to enlighten close minded people.
eheh :) instead you are the open-minded one, eh?
Good job guy, really a good job...
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 23 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
Ralph, In my humble opinion, you shouldn't be wasting your time arguing with these dudes. They clearly don't/won't understand the technical aspects involved. If they don't see the point when they hear MorphOS users talking about how fast their system runs and how nice it is to have actual PPC apps that people use every day, like Voyager, then they just are't going to get the picture.
Mike
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 24 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Mike):
> They clearly don't/won't understand the technical aspects involved.
oh! eheh :) why don't you tell us which are those "technical" aspects that we won't understand?
> If they don't see the point when they hear MorphOS users talking about how fast their system
> runs and how nice it is to have actual PPC apps that people use every day, like Voyager, then they just are't going to get the
> picture.
Maybe I dind't explain well what I meant, or maybe (more probably) you din't get it at all... I said that MorphOS is a nice piece of SW. But nothing more, I'm sorry... I don't see WHERE IT FITS nowadays.
Can you or Ralph eplain to the *potential* users of this SW which are the wonderful aspect that would make them chose it instead of, say, Ami?
Regards,
F.A.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 25 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Fabio Alemagna):
You said it`s a mere emulator...and that`s far from the truth.
If you had looked at the announcement text closely you would
have seen what native system components it includes.
These are important system modules which are replaced and
more will come.
The current uncompressed module.rom is about 1MB and these
are all replacement, addon or patch system modules to
the kickstart rom.
If it would be a mere emulator i could have released it
last year because *that* is the simple thing.
What you see there is comparable with MacOS 7.5/8.0 in its
structure to speak in simplified user terms.
So..next time *inform* yourself.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 26 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Anonymous):
>Ah :) The great Laire is back, so selfish, so egoist, I must admit I missed you a bit.
You have the guts to call me selfish/egoistic ?
Most of the current 68060 and PPC owners use their toy with *unpaid*
licences to me.
Which means...most of my work on the PPC cards was for free.
Fascinating how people which don`t know a dime about me are the first
with nice attributes.
>Anyway, with the arrival of AMI, Morphos will be dead in a few months, despite your couragous but vain efforts, and we will all start again on something new.
Really..in your wisdom you know that ?
Are you aware that a lot devs/users don`t care for what Amiga Inc. does ?
If you think that most of the amiga users today only kept to their amiga
because of its brandname and that somebody only have to wink with the
Amiga brandname to other green fields they would follow then Mr. Annonymous
you`ll be in a big surprise.
>Please, please, answer me again with you "style", it's so good...
You get what you deserve...instead of Mr annonymous(alias Coward, Inc)
i stand for my opinions with an open face.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 27 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Fabio Alemagna):
EGS was a gui/gfx extensions where only EGS programs could run on
truecolour EGS screens.
It had some 8bit RTG about the quality i can`t say much.
CyberGraphX was the first true colour RTG for AmigaOS which means
that AmigaOS programs like the WB worked on top of a truecolour screen.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 28 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Fabio Alemagna):
>Maybe I dind't explain well what I meant, or maybe (more probably) you din't get it at all... I said that MorphOS is a nice piece of SW. But nothing more, I'm sorry... I don't see WHERE IT FITS nowadays.
>Can you or Ralph eplain to the *potential* users of this SW which are the wonderful aspect that would make them chose it instead of, say, Ami?
Why don`t you explain why Amiga users will choose Ami ?
They have said and made clear through their choice of technology
that it`s not AmigaOS and the desktop isn`t really their main
target.
I think most remaining people want an AmigaOS on faster hw than any
other system.
Any other system may have a lot advantages but well...the current
amiga users could have already went to the PC or MacOS(soon OpenStep2,
alias MacOS X) if it would only about faster HW, more sophisticated
SW technology and more software.
These people kept to their amigas because they have used AmigaOS
for a decade or more and don`t wanna change. It`s their hobby.
I don`t deny that there are surely people which are attracted by
Amiga Inc. because they hold the name and maybe also through their
proposed platform independence technology(without really looking
at the disadvantages this will bring) but i don`t think the amount
of people is significant.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 29 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Mike on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Fabio Alemagna):
>> They clearly don't/won't understand the technical aspects involved.
>oh! eheh :) why don't you tell us which are those "technical" aspects that we >won't understand?
As I said, I think you simply don't care, but OK. As Mr. Schmidt went to pains to point out, it isn't just an emulation of the 68k Amiga. It does do that, but several important components are recompiled for the PPC (and thus not emulated). The point, for PPC users anyway, is this system:
1) Overcomes the previous limits of Amiga PPC systems. No more context switches dragging things down. That a prime reason complex applications weren't written for PowerUp or WarpOS.
2) That fact also allows and makes it useful to start replacing AmigaOS componenets with native PPC components. This is being done, with many beneficial speed effects.
> If they don't see the point when they hear MorphOS users talking about how fast their system
> runs and how nice it is to have actual PPC apps that people use every day, like Voyager, then they just are't going to get the
> picture.
Maybe I dind't explain well what I meant, or maybe (more probably) you din't get it at all... I said that MorphOS is a nice piece of SW. But nothing more, I'm sorry... I don't see WHERE IT FITS nowadays.
Would you see where it fit if it was called AmigaOS 4.0? The concept is pretty similar to that now abandoned idea. Get the Amiga OS running on PPC (including current PPC Amigas!), while maintaining 68k compatibility and allowing the whole OS to be re-written for PPC piece by piece.
Can you or Ralph eplain to the *potential* users of this SW which are the wonderful aspect that would make them chose it instead of, say, Ami?
OK, I can try.
1. I can use it now.
2. Functionally, it's the current AmigaOS, which I happen to tremendously enjoy using. I don't know if that'l be true of Ami or QNX.
3. I can use it on a PPC Amiga, and I don't know if that'll be true of Ami or QNX.
4. I can use all of the programs I know and enjoy on my current Amiga, some in a newer, faster form. For example, YAM, Voyager, IBrowse, AmIRC, etc. I like all of those programs, and thus I see increasing their speed and utility as a good thing, and not a dead end.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 30 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Ralph Schmidt):
> You said it`s a mere emulator...and that`s far from the truth.
I'm sorry if you got offended.. it wasn't my intention... as I said in my 1st message I'm sure you did a great job. What I meant is that yes, MorphOS is not just an emulator, but it's far from being a complete OS too...
> If you had looked at the announcement text closely you would
> have seen what native system components it includes.
> These are important system modules which are replaced and
> more will come.
Yes, I'm sure that you're doing a great job, I told you already, but, anyway, I don't see the advantages that MorphOS has over Ami.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 31 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Ralph Schmidt):
> Why don`t you explain why Amiga users will choose Ami ?
> They have said and made clear through their choice of technology
> that it`s not AmigaOS and the desktop isn`t really their main
> target.
this just a your interpretation...
quoting from http://www.amiga.com/press/zine/4-17-00/AW8.htm
"Will there be Amiga desktop computers? Absolutely."
So I don't see why did you say that...
And, besides, they said explicitely at AmiWest that htere will be an emulation layer for classic-aplications, that will run trasparently.
And, moreover, there will be, in Ami, all the cutest and wanted aspect of AmigaOS, from multiple screens to datatypes.
Again I don't get your point.
Regards,
F.A.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 32 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Fabio Alemagna):
>I'm sorry if you got offended.. it wasn't my intention... as I said in my 1st message I'm sure you did a great job.
> What I meant is that yes, MorphOS is not just an emulator, but it's far from being a complete OS too...
Ok..what`s a complete OS then ?
o Do you mean with complete "native" ?
Right..it`s not complete native but well the most important
OS modules are already native.
(exec, scsi IO, sfs, graphics...to simplify it)
Is MacOS 9 fully native ?...surely not
Is Ami native at all ?...no..so i doubt that was
your point:-)
o Do you mean with complete OS...is no operating system.
Doesn`t handle hardware resources.
Well..if AmigaOS is an OS MorphOS is also an OS.
Is Ami a complete OS ?...no...it doesn`t control the whole
hardware enviroment as it needs Linux or soon Windows to
act as a host *OS*.
(Please no but it`s controlling some PDA HW arguments now)
So what do you really mean with complete ?...i doubt you meant it
the way i put it up above as that doesn`t make much sense:-)
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 33 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Fabio Alemagna):
>So I don't see why did you say that...
I said that because I and also others don`t think the Elate
technology is suited for the desktop where speed is everything.
John Wiedenhirn(Ex. Cats,3d0, SGI) has wrote an extensive article
about it which Amiga Inc people better have read *closely* and not
ignored by the usage of some
"He`s negative about us, ignore him filter"
I *know* that they are working on making a AmigaOne HW platform
possible.
They`ve decided their path and so the amiga world will see if what
will comes out is attractive to it.
Personally i see no point in using some pcode on the desktop and
could also go into deeper detail about it but it`s irrelevant.
>And, besides, they said explicitely at AmiWest that htere will be an emulation layer for classic-aplications, that will run trasparently.
Talk is cheap...that`s a real nice statement.
You can all claim that when it's *there* and *works* acceptable
I *heard* they contracted the UAE Windows developer in but well...
UAE has certain design limitations and doing it real needs a bit more work:-)
They are probably also able to do something like Carbon, some AmigaOS C
Enviroment with the help of Aros.
But well...you can run aros on a linux machine already and probably compile
apps for it according to the ARos developers.
>And, moreover, there will be, in Ami, all the cutest and wanted aspect of AmigaOS, from multiple screens to datatypes.
>Again I don't get your point.
So..AmigaOS is only multiple screens and datatypes for you ?
Then i`m sure BeOS would be heaven for you:-)
Look..you talk about vapor. I talk about reality.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 34 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Ralph Schmidt):
> >So I don't see why did you say that...
> I said that because I and also others don`t think the Elate
> technology is suited for the desktop where speed is everything.
Speed is there. You evidentely *don't* know what are you talking about. *please* inform yourself before <grin>
> John Wiedenhirn(Ex. Cats,3d0, SGI) has wrote an extensive article
> about it which Amiga Inc people better have read *closely* and not
> ignored by the usage of some
> "He`s negative about us, ignore him filter"
I'm sure you read what DH stated, right?
> They`ve decided their path and so the amiga world will see if what
> will comes out is attractive to it.
see, you miss the point... not only "amiga world", but ALL the world will see...
> Personally i see no point in using some pcode on the desktop and
> could also go into deeper detail about it but it`s irrelevant.
you have your ideas, other ppl have other ideas. This doesn't mean you're right, of course.
So, let ppl judge your work as you judge other ppl's work.
> > And, besides, they said explicitely at AmiWest that htere will be an emulation layer for classic-aplications,
> > that will run trasparently.
> Talk is cheap...that`s a real nice statement.
They promised it, they will do it, or else their reputation will be destroyed
> You can all claim that when it's *there* and *works* acceptable
> I *heard* they contracted the UAE Windows developer in but well...
> UAE has certain design limitations and doing it real needs a bit more work:-)
oh, how funny are you, really... if those are all your arguments... well, I'm sorry, but I think that just ppl that don't believe that Ami will succeed will follow you. But you know that they are the minority, right?
For what we know it might be *exactly* the same thing that you have done. Admit that its not that difficult...
> They are probably also able to do something like Carbon, some AmigaOS C
> Enviroment with the help of Aros.
> But well...you can run aros on a linux machine already and probably compile
> apps for it according to the ARos developers.
and then? AROS is working right now. It's not perfect, but it works. AROS is free, your MorphOS is not, for what I know. So we have another reason for DONT chose MorphOS...
> >And, moreover, there will be, in Ami, all the cutest and wanted aspect of AmigaOS, from multiple screens to datatypes.
> >Again I don't get your point.
So..AmigaOS is only multiple screens and datatypes for you ?
Have I said that? My english is not good, so probably I said it wrong, but what I said is that those things range FROM multiple screens TO datatypes. In the middle there are ALL the other features that AmigaOS has.
> Then i`m sure BeOS would be heaven for you:-)
Oh, yeah, it's a nice OS... but without future. BeOS is more modern that AmigaOS and has a potential user base wider than the one of MorphOS. If BeOS didn't succeed I don't see WHY MorphOS should succeed.
> Look..you talk about vapor. I talk about reality.
Oh, yeah, sure ... whatever you say... :)
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 35 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Fabio Alemagna):
About speed...if you claim Elate gives you full native performance
you have an expectation problem. Elate is a technology for embedded
devices...getting this as a full replacement on the desktop is first
major work with the disadvantage of the speed loss.
I read DH`s opinion, it`s the calm version of what he said months
ago on the team amiga mailinglist which wasn`t that positive.
I also know MetaBox`s internal opinion which i doubt they`ve changed
the last months...
Anyway..this isn`t about competing against Amiga Inc. Amiga Inc
obviously doesn`t really target people which want to use *AmigaOS*.
*I* think these are the majority of the remaining Amiga users...you
obviously think that the remaining Amiga user will follow where the
name goes. Fine....until somebody makes a poll that`s pretty
pointless.
And now about vapor....what`s the problem by calling something
vapor which is NOT here. MorphOS was also vapor before it wasn`t
released. And Ami`s so called "transparent Amiga enviroment" is
vapor now.
Beyond that i think i can realisticly judge their amigaos enviroment
options...can you ?
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 36 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Ralph Schmidt):
Ahahaha :)
That's well you, Mr. Laire. I'm so pleased to hear you again with this so particular "tone".
Well that's good.
OK.
Concerning the people interested in the Amiga Inc. projects, prepare yourself to be astonished in a few months.
And forget about the base users using Morphos, it's simply too complicated, and as you seem to guess, we're far too narrow minded to be interested in it, or to appreciate it.
Ahaaa this is just to sad : a so good coder, someone who deserves great honors, and who are so pretentious that he's finally more controversed than liked. Too bad.
As for my name, I can't tell it because it would hurt some other, important interests and I don't want that.
Hope you'll understand, Mr Laire (even if I have few hopes...)
My best regards.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 37 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by me on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Ralph Schmidt):
>I said that because I and also others don`t think the Elate
>technology is suited for the desktop where speed is everything.
Ralph, let me tell you that, AIK, most C(++) compilers transforms the code into some kind of virtual code first! Then it get compiled to the actual native code. Just Elate does this at *load* time. (But all is fine tuned.)
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 38 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Olsen on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Fabio Alemagna):
> his just a your interpretation...
> quoting from http://www.amiga.com/press/zine/4-17-00/AW8.htm
> "Will there be Amiga desktop computers? Absolutely."
Aha, but since Amino got Amiga, Amiga hasn't been Amiga. Amiga is not elate. So i'm pretty sure that "Amiga desktop computers" are just computers to run Elate on. I've said it before, i can say it again, Amiga Inc. doesn't care about "the real" Amiga at all.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 39 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Anonymous):
Calm tone ?
Weren`t you the guy who called me selfish, egoistic and unintelligent ?
Weren`t you the guy who calls himself "Coward, Inc" and still comes up
with weak excuses about his identity ?.
For me you have no identity at all and obviously you don`t value your
opinion high enough as you don`t back it with any credibility.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 40 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Ralph Schmidt):
Dear Ralph, don't get in futile fight... at least, I want just to discuss... we have different opinions, but you, of course, are free to do whetever you want to.
You of course know that the potential user base of MorphOS is very limited... how many PUP have been sold? 5000 or so? Well, you for sure know your business...
If you are fine with the idea of having a so little user base, well, no one can say anything...
But I really think that, well, maybe it would be a better idea to GPLize your work and do money with other things... I'm pretty sure that in that case your product would succeed, sooner or later, given that you make it portable.
If is the success of your product that you care about, well, that is the way, IMHO. If you care just about some moneys that you can do selling it to the few interested amigans left... well, as I said go ahead...
In any case,
good luck
Best Regards,
F.A.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 41 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (me):
>Ralph, let me tell you that, AIK, most C(++) compilers transforms the code into some kind of virtual code first! Then it get compiled to the actual native code. Just Elate does this at *load* time. (But all is fine tuned.)
That`s all fine but I can also read from some whitepaper.
But do you fully understand what this means and what the
consequences are in real life. Do you ?
Some little points you may think through...
o little endian pcode on a big endian cpu
o cache hints
o memory needed for a transcription engine to get at least
acceptable speed.
o SIMD
o it will never ever use the full capabilities of the target cpu
because the loadfile doesn`t have a symmantic tree representation.
Look..companies try to sell products with nice sounding attributes.
And who will deny that a virtual cpu instruction set doesn`t sound
attractive on first look.
But there`s a worm of consequences with every design decision you take.
Consequences users and even normal applications developers can`t really
overlook because they only interact with their system on a higher level.
The whole computer world is full of tradeoffs...Elate designed their
system for the embedded world where memory usage and easy adaption
to new targets is more important than the fastest possible cpu speed.
That`s a fair tradeoff.
The desktop world has other tradeoffs....but the cpu integer performance
is surely not the tradeoff (anymore).
Here the tradeoffs are in the system architecture buswidth/bandwidth,
i/o bandwidth, reliability(dataloss) and fpu performance for scientific
usage....which devides workstations/servers from the desktop market.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 42 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Fabio Alemagna):
The base is about 10000 PPC cards and who says we will limit this
on PowerUP cards only ? That`s only phase 1.
The remaining active amiga user market is maybe around 30k users
...with passive/ex users which would perhaps like an amigaos port
on fast hw probably up to 100k.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 43 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Ralph Schmidt):
Ahahaha :)
Mr Laire, you're incredible.
I think this will be enough.
For this time...
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 44 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by me on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Ralph Schmidt):
Full CPU usage can be done by native versions of VP-routines ("tools"), if necessary. (And you probably know that "a few percent of code of an application run in near the full time". Only these parts needed to also be compiled/coded in native.)
Cache, etc. are handled by Elate, accomodating the actual CPU.
Regarding speed: With today's CPU's (even embedded), the Elate/Amiga system, with a little, *if any*, slow down, will be much-much faster that the M$-ish bloatware.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 45 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Mark Olsen):
>Aha, but since Amino got Amiga, Amiga hasn't been Amiga.
>Amiga is not elate. So i'm pretty sure that "Amiga desktop
>computers" are just computers to run Elate on. I've said
>it before, i can say it again, Amiga Inc. doesn't care
>about "the real" Amiga at all.
Why do you think MorphOS is rather 'Amiga' than 'Elate+AmigaNG'? Did you know that MorphOS also uses a *new* kernel called "Quark". Why? Because it is the only way to implement things like MP (memory-protection), SMP, RT, threads, etc. So, these are quite similar in this level, (except the VP system!). Also somewhat similar the 'emulation' of the old OS. But the *new* Amiga system, while has the old's 'goods', also will offer much more modern, and even never seen things, on upper levels, too. [Not mentioning a more serious firm's power and support.] So think twice...
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 46 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by me on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Mark Olsen):
>Aha, but since Amino got Amiga, Amiga hasn't been Amiga.
>Amiga is not elate. So i'm pretty sure that "Amiga desktop
>computers" are just computers to run Elate on. I've said
>it before, i can say it again, Amiga Inc. doesn't care
>about "the real" Amiga at all.
Why do you think MorphOS is rather 'Amiga' than 'Elate+AmigaNG'? Did you know that MorphOS also uses a *new* kernel called "Quark". Why? Because it is the only way to implement things like MP (memory-protection), SMP, RT, threads, etc. So, these are quite similar in this level, (except the VP system!). Also somewhat similar the 'emulation' of the old OS. But the *new* Amiga system, while has the old's 'goods', also will offer much more modern, and even never seen things, on upper levels, too. [Not mentioning a more serious firm's power and support.] So think twice...
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 47 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by me on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Keith Blakemore-Noble):
>(2) AInc's "compatability layer" will ONLY run 68k stuff -
>it will NOT run *any* PPC software,
Where do you know it from as so certainly? At least, on a PPC equipped machine, it could be done somewhat more easily. Who knows?
> whereas MorphOS runs all
>"well written" 68k software AND PowerUp-based PPC software.
AMI maybe will run not just the "well written" software. (I'd call it "system-friendly", as f.ex. hard-coded games are also well written, if nice ones.)
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 48 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Olsen on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (me):
> Why do you think MorphOS is rather 'Amiga' than 'Elate+AmigaNG'?
I didn't say that.
> Did you know that MorphOS also uses a *new* kernel called "Quark".
Yes.
> Why? Because it is the only way to implement things like MP (memory-protection)
>, SMP, RT, threads, etc.
Resourcetracking is easy without a new kernel. I know of several neverreleased RT'ers. One i've coded is one of them.
And threads aren't possible under AmigaOS ? My, i learn every day.
> So, these are quite similar in this level, (except the VP system!).
> Also somewhat similar the 'emulation' of the old OS.
No, MorphOS is both binary and source compatible with AmigaOS. Elate is none of those.
> But the *new* Amiga system, while has the old's 'goods',
> also will offer much more modern, and even never seen things,
> on upper levels, too.
It's still not Amiga in my eyes. Let's call it Elate.
Now, what old 'goods' does it have ?
I don't own a PC, besides my 486 which has no monitor, keyboard, etc, so i haven't been able to test the thing.
What never seen things will elate offer ?
Platform independency ? Has been done before.
> [Not mentioning a more serious firm's power and support.] So think twice...
Aha, more "serious firm's". How many is supporting Windows ? Now, why aren't you using Windows ? It isn't much different from Elate or MorphOS.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 49 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by me on 10-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Mark Olsen):
>Resourcetracking is easy without a new kernel. I know of several
>neverreleased RT'ers. One i've coded is one of them.
>And threads aren't possible under AmigaOS ? My, i learn every day.
OK, true, I just took these also "automatically" from MorpOS's "new features".
Just forget these, but not the really new ones.
>> So, these are quite similar in this level, (except the VP system!).
>> Also somewhat similar the 'emulation' of the old OS.
>
>No, MorphOS is both binary and source compatible with AmigaOS.
>Elate is none of those.
No. Using a new kernel breaks these. AIK, MorphOS also just "redirects" sys-calls in old apps, so also "emulating" the old OS. Just like AMI.
>It's still not Amiga in my eyes. Let's call it Elate.
>Now, what old 'goods' does it have ?
>I don't own a PC, besides my 486 which has no monitor,
>keyboard, etc, so i haven't been able to test the thing.
>What never seen things will elate offer ?
>Platform independency ? Has been done before.
You obviously talk only about Elate, forgetting that it's just the base, the kernel-like thing, for the new AMI system. (Just like Quark for MorphOS.) But, do you heard about AmiVerse yet? The new BOOPS system, the "de-tachable" GUI-system, the new abstracting layers, etc.?
>> [Not mentioning a more serious firm's power and support.] So think twice...
>
>Aha, more "serious firm's". How many is supporting Windows ?
>Now, why aren't you using Windows ? It isn't much different
>from Elate or MorphOS.
I put it into brackets, because it's not the *most* important thing, (unlike in case of Winblows), but it also counts. It assures that your work and/or investments won't become useless after even 1-2 years.
Voyager for MorphOS : Comment 50 of 74ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT
I can't understand why so many people are having a go at Ralph - if MorphOS has been called "AmigaOS" you lot would have no problem with it! You talk in a paranoid fashion about the Amiga "community" being fractured. There is only one fracture; it divides those who like AmigaOS, and those who follow the "Amiga" name.
However, I do have some serious concerns about MorphOS' future... there aren't many PPC boards out there and the only new PPC hardware in active production is from Apple (can MorphOS be run on a PowerMac?) which means a userbase can only be a subset of the already small group of Amiga users. I would absolutely love to see MorphOS on the PC....
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