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[Motd] I need some urgent adviceANN.lu
Posted on 12-Sep-2000 15:51 GMT by Christian Kemp67 comments
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I have some things to re(consider) and I need some job/education/life related advice from as many visitors as possible to help me make up my mind. Please read more below and add your thoughts in the comments. What follows is basically just a collection of thoughts I managed to record this afternoon. Not everything is necessarily in a coherent order, but I'm sure you will be able to see the big picture behind my dilemma.

As many of you might now, I dropped out of my country's equivalent of highschool and have been working for almost a year now. According to my boss, my first pay rise is imminent and there's a 50/50 probability that I can move up to be a programmer (mostly PowerBuilder for the time being) instead of a customer service / help desk person.

My dilemma is that while this might look good for the next few years or so, as soon as I change jobs I will have a hard time to convince any potential employer that I am worth as much as other people who might have completed highschool and gone on to university. Right now, I have more work experience than somebody fresh off university, but that point will be moot in a few years. 5 years uni plus 5 years work experience are without a doubt to be considered higher than 10 years work experience at lesser jobs.

I have to admit that I would be tempted to go to university to study "applied computer science", but to be able to do that, I would first have to repeat my final year at highschool.

Since I want to stay in the IT field, I consider it to be important to have a wide background as well as relevant knowledge of the fundamentals. I know a bit of Perl, some HTML, can administrate an NT machine and am generally a fast learner as far as software usage and the underlying concepts are concerned. But I don't have much of a knowledge as far as the basic concepts of computing are concerned: programming basics, (object-oriented) development, software analysis, there are too many things to mention all of them. These are the things that make up what I consider an IT professional, somebody who has a true understanding of computing, and I'm afraid that in a few years, with the massive influx of computer science graduates, everybody and their dog will have a more thorough knowledge than I do right now. Making me less employable and less worthy at the end of the month (paytime).

I'm not much of an independent learner, so I don't think I could learn all this on my own while still working throughout the day. Especially since I feel that with 40 hours a week and the necessary commute, lunch break and everything, I wouldn't even have the time. Besides, having school pressurize me to learn would probably be more effective than sitting at home and having no possibility to compare or get a second opinion on any reading I would be doing in books selected by me, rather than imposed by somebody with more knowledge or a deeper insight on why book x is better than book y.

To sum it up, if I want to aquire more theoretic and basic knowledge, if I want to understand the fundamentals rather than just learning to use the new buzzword tool, I have to return back to school.

But another question that crossed my mind: is it worth it? Will a 2-year university education make me more employable, give me a more rewarding job, or make me more money? Or would I need to go the full 9 semesters, and therefore adding 5 additional years to that highschool year I'd have to take now?

If I were to go to university for five years, I'd get out in 2006, with a debt of at least 30.000€, but of course I'd also have to factor in the money I'm not making during that time, which would amount to much more. Would I be able to recover that "lost money" in the years after 2006, or is university education just a waste of money?

Another point to consider would be that school and university would allow me to have some time for side-projects, or at least to manage my time in different ways. Highschool is only 30 hours a week, university less, with less commuting, so even if I consider study time, I'd still have more flexibility.

Another relevant aspect would be the social environment. At work, I'm pretty much in a dead end street. We're only a few people at my work place, and there's no real contact to the rest of the world. In school, you are constantly surrounded with up to thousands of people, and many more people in a class alone than here at work. Besides, here at work, I'm considerably younger than my coworkers and pretty much the only one not to have my own family (SO and/or children). So returning back to school would mean I get to know more people in my age range and possibly find my future wife, who knows. :) This isn't really an education/job aspect, but still very much important.

I need to decide fast. There aren't many highschools in Luxembourg, and school begins Monday next week. One school already confirmed that they do not have any free seats, I'll try and phone another one tomorrow morning. If I don't get a positive answer anywhere, I'm out of luck. Evening courses aren't an option either, in my opinion, because of the reason mentioned above (I would probably not have the energy to work fulltime, plus go to school in the evenings).

So the basic question really is: is the opportunity to grow at my current job, and possibly any new job after that, important enough to make a highschool and university degree redundant? ie. in ten years from now, will my job life be better if I chose one or the other? Would university, or in more generic terms, a return to school, have a positive impact on my life besides

I never used to be a very good student, I often was too lazy to learn enough and subsequently failed not because of a lack of intelligence, but rather just because I failed to make good use of it. So another question that I have to ask myself is whether I would be able to finish highschool successfully and then go on and finish university successfully.

I know that none of my questions is easy to answer. But I'd appreciate any kind of advice or comment somebody could offer. If you went to college and work in the IT industry now, was it worth it? If you got into the IT industry without doing relevant studies, do you think you had it easier/harder and has it offered you more or less opportunities (both project- and money-wise)? I'm not trying to be indiscrete, I just want to hear opinions, to be able to have a broader range of points to consider when I'm making a final decision, probably tomorrow.

Thanks for your time.

I need some urgent advice : Comment 51 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Stanley C. Skirvin on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
Christian,
I certainly wish that I could give you some sage advice. However, I am an old fart (retired) and the economic and social environments are vastly different than when I graduated with a B.Sc. in Physics from Ohio State University in 1952.
Probably needless to say, I did not possess or follow any career plan. I wound up spending the last 20 years of my working career in the GE-Honeywell mainfame computer business. I retired with title of Senior Product Planner - Peripherals. The most interesting portion of my career, when I did the most programming, was as a heat transfer and fluid flow engineer. I worked on aircraft jet engines, gas-cooled nuclear reactors, and space reentry vehicles. I miss those days.
(Not pertinent to your needs, but perhaps you found it morbidly fascinating. I grow mellow in my old age.)
I can only hope that you can get some sage advice from people who are making their way in the modern environment.
I wish you the very best and thank you for the service you have provided to the Amiga community. I've been a member of that community since May 1986.
Stan Skirvin Scottsdale, Arizona USA
I need some urgent advice : Comment 52 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Colin Thompson on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
Chris:
At age 54 I have learned many things. And I have regrets. My biggest regret is failng to get an education. Now, at my age my only option is to operate my own company and hope I don't fire myself for gross incompetence.
Take a longer view. The exact degree is not important. But get one! It is your ticket into the world.
Wives and friends will come along when they do. Realistically, you have one chance to get an education. Do it now, anyway you can.
Your friend,
Colin
I need some urgent advice : Comment 53 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Tierno on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
For what it's worth, here's my take on your dilema.
First, here in the US there are 2 ways of handling incomplete High
School education for those that want to stay on their job at the same
time.
1) night-school; see if there's a high school with an Adult
Education program to take your incompleted classes at night.
2) Equivalency Diploma. In the US at least, if you have just 1 year
to go you can take an Equivalency Exam to prove you're ready to
graduate; if passed, they wave your last year and give you the diploma
right then and there. This would then allow you to go straight into
College.
As far as should you complete your education, I say yes. First, to
ponder over taking a few years out to finish up, when the rest of your
life may extend another 70 years or more kind of makes those few
measily years seem inconsequential in return for the pay-back. Also,
on a more social level, most people meet their life-mates in School,
usually College. Certainly a lot better chance for social interaction
then in a small room with a couple other guys.
I hope this feedback helps.
I need some urgent advice : Comment 54 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Erik Oosterwaal on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
Hi Christian,
I had the same dilemma, but it solved itself;
I wanted to study computer-related stuff, we have different levels of education here in Holland after basic school (finished when you're 12);
lower/medium and higher. I chose a medium technical education (electronics was the closest to computer science there was) and after that wanted to continue with a higher technical education, specifically technical computer sciences.
I dropped out of the higher technical school and did some work as trainee at a hardwarecompany and a technical department at a theatre.
After that I followed a 1 year course in multimedia. I now work at a very nice multimediacompany as a programmer.
I get courses here (in fact I'm at one as I type) and I'm happy doing what I do.
To sum it up: try to ask your employer for courses, and just learn stuff in your spare time, the need for IT professionals is so great, you'll get any job you want when you know your stuff.
good luck
Erik
I need some urgent advice : Comment 55 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by John Payne on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
Many colleges and universities offer courses and even degrees online. A useful
search term is "distance learning".
The <A HREF="http://www.wgu.edu/wgu/index.html">Western Governors University</A> is being developed in response to
the needs of people who are located in remote places and/or need to pursue an
education while working.
But, if US$15/month isn't a problem, you might find joining The WELL a useful
thing to do. It's a great place to get questions answered, quickly, in detail,
and can also serve as a support network. <A HREF="http://www.well.com/">www.well.com
I need some urgent advice : Comment 56 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Phil Lewin on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
Go back to school, you will just end up bitter and twisted when all the graduate programmers are passing you by in the pay stakes. I've seen it happen.
Cool Site BTW!
Phil
I need some urgent advice : Comment 57 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Carl Aaby on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
I would definitely recommend that you go back to school, and get
an education.
Looking at my own situation, and comparing it to my friends you did not get a degreed, tells me that I have made the right choice when getting an master degree in IT.
I have a job I love, with a lot of nice people here at Tandberg (a manufacturer of videoconferencing systems.) My income is very good compared to that I am only 28 years old. Many of my friends about the same age, has returned to school after several years of working. What the discovered was that they wanted more from their professional working lives than they had, and education was the way to go. The problem for them is that they are a lot older than their classmates, and they have got used to a life where they can spend more money than a student can. Still, they are very determent that they shall finish what they started, because they do not want to go back to their old jobs.
I can tell you one thing. After a weekend I am really looking forward to go to work again. This has nothing to do with me having a boring life, because I have a lot of good friends, a wonderful girlfriend, and more than enough to do in my spare time, but it is because the job is so challenging and interesting. I really hope all people will have this feeling about their jobs, because I am extremely happy with my life, and part of my happiness is because of my education.
Greeting from Norway.
Carl
I need some urgent advice : Comment 58 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by alffx on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
they are all right,
go back to school and go to uni.
alf
I need some urgent advice : Comment 59 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Würgler on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
My experience is that if you're good at IT you can get jobs solely based on previous work. Experience counts more than education here. That's my two cents..
I need some urgent advice : Comment 60 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Ben on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
Hi
I dropped out of college and did NOTHING for 3 years, then got a job in IT.
The main thing is that you are happy in your job, yeah, money is nice but dont think it is the be all and end all.
My advice? Speak to your employer!!! Explain it to them! They may want to help you work this out.
Then ask if you can go on an "Essentials" course with the guys at http://www.develop.com
That should sort you out!
I too decided that going back to college would cost lots of money and doesnt guarantee anything.
Best of luck!
Cheers
Ben
I need some urgent advice : Comment 61 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Ian on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
Hi Christian, I don't know if you're still reading this far down.. :-)
Unlike most comments, I'm not going to tell you to go all-out for education. I've got a university degree and in my opinion it has not siginificantly affected my job or salary. The reason for this, IMHO, is that having academic qualifications opens doors that would otherwise remain closed, !BUT! your path will only go through them if you persue it that much harder. (Which I didn't)
Employers regard job experience as valuable as, if not more so, than education, providing you meet the basic knowledge requirements for the job. Don't throw that away. "Wet behind the ears" graduates are two-a-penny. People who know what they're doing are valuable..
On the other hand, University or college is a great experience, especially in relation to the more personal issues you raised.
Basically, if you really feel you are going to regret missing university, go for it, I guarantee you will enjoy it. But don't be fooled into believing you are unemployable through lack of qualifications - you already have the best demonstration of capability: Experience.
Cheers,
PS: ANN is great, congratulations on brilliant work.
I need some urgent advice : Comment 62 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Robert Bryant on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
Go to school. You will find (I believe) that you can leverage your real-world experience to give you an edge over fellow students while there and come graduation/interviewing for jobs. *Especially* in the high-tech industries.
A Master's is better than a Bachelor's is better than an Associate's is better than a High-School Diploma is better than dropping out.
- Rob.
Bachelor in Mechanical Engineering
I need some urgent advice : Comment 63 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Damien Mc Kenna on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
First off, I've more-or-less been where you are now. I got through high-school in Ireland, but had to repeat my final year as I did so poorly (I never studied, but I was able to understand things well). After that I went to a college after reading a single paragraph on a program they had, and had the best time of my life, but not because of college. In the Irish system, each degree program is fixed - you pick what program you want to do and that's pretty much it. There's rarely a possibility of taking extra courses, or replacing others you don't like. Compare that to the US where you have almost complete control of your course selection, aside from core subjects. Anyway, after a year of the program I'd read about, I was doing poorly (C average) and didn't like the direction it was taking (too much electronics). So I transferred to a software-only program, started at square one again. After a year of it I was still struggling with a C average. I tried a part-time job in the college which I slacked off on. When it came to the second year, I ended up completely flunking and was sent a nice letter after Christmas that they didn't want me anymore. The reason I flunked was that I put spending time with my new-found fiancee (and playing with computers) over school - I never went to class, I never did any projects, etc. The only class I did any work for was one where I did a group project in VB, and got a C in it (because the program sucked).
After that I got a job while my fiancee finished off her second semester, then we got married and moved to the States (where she was from) so she could finish college. While she did that I had a variety of jobs, the longest being at Staples (office supplies / computers store). In the end though I wasn't earning enough to keep us afloat, I wasn't happy in my job, and I had no long-term prospects. So I went back to college.
I will have to admit that it has been hard in the last 15 months keeping up with the work-load. Right now I'm taking 15 credits (including heavy maths and physics classes), and working 29 hours per week to bring in some money while my wife finds work. The whole experience has proven to be extremely taxing, but the occasional computers classes make it worth-while (I just wish there weren't so many unimportant classes I had to take - if I want to learn about quantum physics I'll do it on my own time damnit!).
It is going to be almost another three years before I'm finished, but I'm hoping it'll be worth it. I really want to be done with the whole thing as I'm extremely eager to start working, possibly for myself as I've got lots of ideas for applications. Thankfully I've got my wife to help me stand up straight, and I can tell you it _does_ make a difference.
I personally would *strongly* urge you to go back to school for two reasons:
- formal "training" in computer science will do you good, it is working for me so far, and it sounds like we may have some similar personality traits in the learning department.
- get the damn piece of paper! As my father-in-law says, all a degree does for you is open doors so you can get the interview so you can show prospective employers how good you are - that's it! A lot of employers don't care about the degree itself or how well you did so long as you have one!
One idea would be to see if you could go to a college that can give a diploma or certificate when you get half way, eg in the States you can get an Associate of Arts (if you want to) that basically says you did two years of college, then you continue to your main Bachelors program. This would give you something to fall back on if you got tired of it or wanted a break for a few years (got married, etc...) as you'd have a piece of paper to wave at people rather than just saying "Yeah, I did college for a while"...
One last thing - keep up your spirits, listen to soothing/relaxing music (Pachelbel's Canon in D Major by Chacra Artists is a good one), walk on the beach, take up a sport, get a girlfriend, those are the things that help you through the day.
Oh, and if you ever have to decide between girlfriend and website, the site can wait (get more moderators)!
I need some urgent advice : Comment 64 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Schuck on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
As a person with a college degree, I would advise you to get the degree.
As I am sure a lot of people have expressed the idea - you may have the
knowledge, but without some sort of certification, many opportunities may
be lost.
I need some urgent advice : Comment 65 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Robert Simmonds on 12-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
At first I would suggest you go back to education, mainly because of the surface benefits. Many companies will look at certificates first, and the person later. However, there are other considerations to bring in. Your apparent dislike for education could be your downfall. There is no point giving up a job, and going to do a 3 or 4 year degree unless you can stick the WHOLE lot. Half a degree is no use to anyone, it is a lot of time and money to waste if you are not totally dedicated to the idea. I myself am in that position; I hate education, and dont really want to be there (doing a Degree in Computing), but I realise the benefits of it. because I dont like it, I am not doing as well as I possibly could, and at one point was thinking of dropping out and trying to find a job as a trainee web developer. However, I have decided to knuckle down and finish the course.
The point I am trying to make is, if you decide to go back to education, you have to WANT to go, otherwise you will find it disheartening and a chore. Some people are not cut out for education, and can realise far more potential in the world of work, whereas others will spend half their lives in education.
No-one can make the decision but you, but I warn: If you are not 100% sure you want to drop out of work and go back to "school" then dont for the moment, and see what other options are avilable. In the UK, there are lots of qualifications you can get, varying in length, time and certification. you could perhaps start by taking a part time course (an evening a week) in certain fields, and if you like it, reconsider at the end.
Do not make rash decisions on public and peer pressure. Do not feel forced into anything, and ultimately, do what YOU want to do.
I need some urgent advice : Comment 66 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by Jeff Falcon on 13-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
it seems like everyone here is telling you to go back to school
the only thing you can really get out of school are 3 things:
1) liver cancer
2) lung cancer
3) a degree which may or may not mean anything in the long run
oh yeah
4) debt
of course there's the social aspect to school which i think is the only redeeming quality. school is not for everyone. if you dropped out i would say it was for a good reason. you're young. if you are truly smart enough to go on without proper education then you shouldnt worry about having a degree. true many companies care about that kind of thing. which is where freelancing comes in. as a freelancer the only thing that's important is what you can do right now. you set the rules. if you know a little PERL i would say learn the rest. a really good programmer is hard to find believe it or not. if you can pick up JAVA and a database like SQL or Oracle then you will find yourself getting paid mucho dinero. if someone tells you otherwise they dont know what they're talking about cause i hire these types of freelancers all the time. one more programmer in the world is a good thing. just don't do it half assed. or anything else for that matter.
I need some urgent advice : Comment 67 of 67ANN.lu
Posted by K. Smith on 13-Sep-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (Jeff Falcon):
Go to school. You have (I guess around) 70 more years to work. What the guy above me is saying though is true, but there is always a catch:
The chances of someone getting hired on to do a job based solely on their word is really slim. You have to have something to show. If you don't have a degree, at least have an example of the quality of work you are capable of.
For example, John Carmack, head of id Software and co-creator of DOOM and Quake, never went to college. But, show me a guy who wrote the code to Quake and I'll show you a guy who doesn't need a degree to prove his worth.
Of course, he's the exception not the rule. "Normal" guys don't have resumes involving the top selling computer game of all time. "Normal" guys count on a degree and a promise of quality work to go further than just a promise of quality work.
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