18-Apr-2024 07:04 GMT.		 UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Anonymous, there are 88 items in your selection (but only 38 shown due to limitation) [1 - 50] [51 - 88]
[News] PPC board for the MediatorANN.lu
Posted on 13-Oct-2000 11:53 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä88 comments
View flat
View list

Elbox announce the development of the SharkPPC G3/G4 add-on board for the Mediator busboard. It's a pure PPC-based board and it's supposed to be able to work in co-operation with an existing 68k/PPC board. The boards should go into production in January 2001 with prices starting from 390 euros. Read the full press release below.

ELBOX COMPUTER
Krakow, 12 October 2000

ELBOX COMPUTER is proud to announce the breath-taking new product: the most powerful PowerPC accelerator for Amiga 1200, 3000 and 4000.

The new accelerator - SharkPPC G3/G4 board - is a pure PowerPC-based processor card to be fitted in MEDIATOR PCI A1200 and MEDIATOR PCI A3/4000 busboards.

SharkPPC G3/G4 cards give Amiga Classic computers the top performance of the latest PowerPC technology and the power of the long-awaited next generation computer.

New PowerPC750 processors installed in SharkPPC G3/G4 cards offer the following performance: 17.4SPECint95@400MHz, 11.7SPECfp95@400MHz, 928DMIPS@400MHz, 22.4SPECint95@550MHz, 13.3SPECfp95@550MHz, 1276DMIPS@550MHz.

The SharkPPC G3/G4 design combines speed of PowerPC G3/G4 processors with extremely fast on-board memory interface controlling two SDRAM modules, up to 512MB each. The peak memory transfer rate reaches 582MB/s. The accelerator card takes control over the PCI busboard with a 66MHz PCI 2.1 compliant interface fitted with a two-channel DMA controller.

Communication between the existing Amiga turbo accelerator and the SharkPPC G3/G4 card is executed with the shared SDRAM memory and the interrupt controller in the MEDIATOR PCI hardware. The new accelerator offers excellent bandwidth to any PCI card: 264 MB/s (132 MB/s in the system with 33 MHz PCI cards). This powerful performance in PCI graphic cards enables development of new superb games/graphic applications in the native PPC code.

All the currently available Amiga software may be executed in the 68k processor with full use of all the PCI cards installed in the computer. It is possible because both accelerator cards installed in the computer access all the PCI cards independently.

On top of that, in new applications to be developed both accelerators may enhance performance of each other just the same way as it is done in advanced multi-processor systems. This is due to the fact that processors in both accelerators (68k/PPC and SharkPPC) work fully simultaneously, which is for the first time available for Amiga users.

The first SharkPPC G3/G4 cards for developers will be available by end of November, with production planned to commence in January 2001.

When new speed versions of PowerPC processors are available, the SharkPPC line will be expanded with more models.

The suggested retail price (VAT excl.) for the SharkPPC G3/G4 accelerators are:

SharkPPC G3/G4 750@400................ EUR 390.00
(PowerPC750@400MHz and 256KB@400MHz L2 Cache)

SharkPPC G3/G4 750@550................ EUR 520.00
(PowerPC750@550MHz and 256KB@550MHz L2 Cache)

Pricing of versions with other processors will be announced separately.

NEW

Please look for our further releases:

1. Development progress of PCI Sound and TV card drivers for MEDIATOR PCI 1200.

2. MEDIATOR development line (A4000 and A3000).

Mariusz Wloczysiak
ELBOX COMPUTER, Press Department
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 51 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 14-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Tony Gore):
As sad as it is Mr. Gore and this also the case for a *lot* Amiga users.
You act out of anger because of your limited viewpoint...somebody yells
and you jump on the train without knowing the whole picture.
Emotions run wild because of own frustration about the market development
and it`s easy to find a target for a blame than analyse the sitation
on a rational level.
Now let's analyse your opinion..and *PLEASE* read this several times.
This is *NOT* meant as a personal attack...Please think through the points,
which should questionize your own thought paths and hopefully let you grow
a more rational viewpoint on the current situation and past situations.
:It has been too long of a struggle to keep the Amiga alive as a hardware
:platform. If the DCE product was worth the cost of purchase, they would
:not have to try and force users to buy only their product by blocking the
:use of the Voodoo drivers so it will not work with _ALL_ manufacturers
:products.
Ok..let`s look at the situation as *I* see it.
Elbox promotes a product as the solution for 68k and PPC users while
it has serious technical problems which the company either didn`t understand
or stayed silent about on purpose.
Wasn`t there some big statement that bank switching is no problem ?
Sure..it`s no problem from the HW perspective...you can access all the
space on the PCI bus. Too bad that has no relevance for their playfield
it has to play with...AmigaOS.
They made claims about 2x faster than the VisionPPC interface in a
public press statement which were plain wrong.
Now they announce a PPC PCI board for the Mediator without saying anything
about software support with the obvious result to people like you that
you think this board will run all the warpos or powerup ppc software.
But sorry..a mixed mode 68k/ppc WarpOS or PowerUP system would be a real
performance problem.
It would requires serious mmu system hackings and cache flush operations.
You could also forget any dma scsi from a 030 1200 card.
They play really smart with images...they throw some bones..Voodoo3 and PPC
without any technical explainations...let normal users play with their fantasy
and imagine what they wanna do with their machine and project this on that
product which it will never be able to satisfy in the end.
The amiga market is simply too small for such kind of competition despite
what you people think in your view of the world.
If you invest into something...develop something, buy licences and pay
the production there must be a return or you can`t develop further.
What DCE did is that they bought the exclusive rights for a driver development
Vision Factory did.
That`s a perfect valid approach and shows far more moral than the following
approach
"Here you have some free hardware, I call you every day about news about the
driver progress, but sorry..no..i can`t pay anything but you can sell CGX4
packages alone to the product`s users..which..well..basicly 90% of the users
pirate anyway."
With this approach ONLY the HW producer profits and the users because he
gets his stuff for nil.
But in the end the market looses because the software producer has no
interest anymore to be the fool anymore and the final fool will be the user.
:These are the same tactics that Phase5 used, and it caused MANY end users
:to decide _not_ to buy a PPC card until there was a resolution.
Which tactics were these ?
You mean the dumb tactic of investing a hell of money into the development
and production of the ppccards which were quite uptodate august 97 but
being told by "smart" people like you that they rape the amiga people
and therefore you don`t buy anything anyway.
Sorry but with your mindset you have just no right to demand
anything as *you* are the kind of guy who hasn`t invested anything into
his amiga the last 3 years anyway.
:I will buy the Mediator, and when the G3/G4 card comes out, I will buy
:that too. I will use the VirgeDX PCI card pulled from an old PC until
:there is another solution. What I will NOT do is buy an outdated,
:overpriced PPC (that alone cost more than the Mediator + G3/G4
:combined)just because DCE decides that nobody else can have a
: Voodoo card. That has nothing to do with me wishing bad fortune
:on anyone.
:That has to do with companies like DCE trying to rape the Amiga
:community just one last time. I am sick of it. We have all fought
:hard to keep this great system going, and it gets harder and harder
:every day that passes to justify my involvement. And it is companies
Sorry..but you ›only sat in front of your amiga.
The people you talk about here have actually invested money, took debts
with high personal riscs and thousands of unpaid work hours into something
you make demands about.
:like DCE pulling underhanded tactics to try and force theirself into
:an undeserving position that are continuing to split the Amiga community
:into fragments. So don't tell me of million dollar financial woes and
So..what DCE did was an open business move. They bought the exclusive
right for something. That is the case everywhere else on the planet.
Maybe(if you ever worked) somebody bought in your exclusive worktime.
That`s the exact same.
Vision Factory chose this over the insecure CGX4 route where most people
would pirate their work anyway and the rest would bother about...why
the hell is my system so unstable.
A lot is going on under the surface about dealer relations which you
normal users don`t even have an idea about....these are "underhanded"
tactics. This business move about the purchase was made publicly..you
may not like it because it collides with your own **interests** but
your **interests** aren`t equal to **rights**.
:the like. It has nothing to do with what is going on, except that DCE
:don't have a G3/G4 product, and it looks as Elbox soon will. They see
You`re fooled by your own assumptions...
:that they won't be able to get rid of those outdated PPC604's & 603's
:and now they will try to force people to buy them.
Before you start with your big demands you better deliver first and
sorry...i can`t see what the Amiga User Tony Gore has delivered to
the amiga market which hasn`t even financed an important development
for the amiga market.
That`s how you paid developers for their engagement and it`s now
easy to set your demands into perspective.
A few people people have even ruined existances because they thought
they better sell them so low to ""more"" people than play more savely
with higher prices.
And because of people like you they lost their gamble.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 52 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Ralph Schmidt):
You know, you are sure full of yourself.
>>Now they announce a PPC PCI board for the Mediator without saying anything
about software support with the obvious result to people like you that
you think this board will run all the warpos or powerup ppc software.<<
Well, I'm sure we all know that it will not run powerup.
>>They play really smart with images...they throw some bones..Voodoo3 and PPC
without any technical explainations...let normal users play with their fantasy
and imagine what they wanna do with their machine and project this on that
product which it will never be able to satisfy in the end.<<
Kinda like what DCE have done with their big Voodoo3 pdf announcement. Looks pretty much the same to me.
>>"Here you have some free hardware, I call you every day about news about the
driver progress, but sorry..no..i can`t pay anything but you can sell CGX4
packages alone to the product`s users..which..well..basicly 90% of the users
pirate anyway."<<
Well, looks like you have a pretty high opinion of 90% of the Amiga users. I have bought each and every single peice of Amiga software that I have ever used, and have been doing so since March 1986. I was more than willing to pay for software that was superior to the alternative platforms.
>>You mean the dumb tactic of investing a hell of money into the development
and production of the ppccards which were quite uptodate august 97... <<
My point exactly. Three years ago.
>>Sorry but with your mindset you have just no right to demand
anything as *you* are the kind of guy who hasn`t invested anything into
his amiga the last 3 years anyway.<<
Let's see, an 040 Accellerator (about 2 1/2 years ago), zip to Simm adapter with 2 8MB Simms, a CyberVision 64/3D, 20" Sony Monitor, 2 4GB hard drives, a CD Writer, the Ariadne II Ethernet card, 56k modem, flatbed scanner, countless mice and other little things, not to mention software.....but just because I havent purchased the overpriced CSPPC, then I haven't invested anything into my Amiga....ok...if you say so, then it must be true.
>>Vision Factory chose this over the insecure CGX4 route where most people
would pirate their work anyway and the rest would bother about...why
the hell is my system so unstable.<<
So I presume DCE will be giving CGX4 away with the purchase of G-rex???
>>This business move about the purchase was made publicly..you
may not like it because it collides with your own **interests** but
your **interests** aren`t equal to **rights**.<<
Wow, your true colors get brighter and brighter. My interests are that when a company has a product on the market and has drivers being worked on for that product, their intentions are proper. Even if I have to wait a few weeks for the update. So in your opinion, the only people who have a **right** to have their new hardware supported is people who purchase from DCE? It is clear to me where the interests of DCE are, and they are not for the Amiga end user. I stand by my previous posts even more now than before.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 53 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (Tony Gore):
:You know, you are sure full of yourself.
Why ? Because i tell you how it is and because i just know more
about this "market" ?
I really hoped you tried to think through what i said but probably
i expected too much from these news/web "opinion" exchanges.
::Now they announce a PPC PCI board for the Mediator without saying anything
::about software support with the obvious result to people like you that
::you think this board will run all the warpos or powerup ppc software.
:Well, I'm sure we all know that it will not run powerup.
As if that was the point...it wasn`t. The point was a mixed mode
system like WarpOS or PowerUP won`t be usable.
::They play really smart with images...they throw some bones..Voodoo3 and PPC
::without any technical explainations...let normal users play with their fantasy
::and imagine what they wanna do with their machine and project this on that
::product which it will never be able to satisfy in the end.
:Kinda like what DCE have done with their big Voodoo3 pdf announcement.
:Looks pretty much the same to me.
Well..at least the hardware won`t have any technical limitations
in the contexts of its usage enviroment.
::"Here you have some free hardware, I call you every day about news about the
::driver progress, but sorry..no..i can`t pay anything but you can sell CGX4
::packages alone to the product`s users..which..well..basicly 900f the users
::pirate anyway."
:Well, looks like you have a pretty high opinion of 900f the Amiga users.
:I have bought each and every single peice of Amiga software that I have
:ever used, and have been doing so since March 1986.
:I was more than willing to pay for software that was superior to the
:alternative platforms.
That`s fine that you did that but too bad that`s not the case with all
users.
The sales numbers of CGX4 were pretty poor since DCE sold significant
numbers of VisionPPCs this year.
So the new HW sales don`t match in any way the software sales.
The conclusion is obvious.
::You mean the dumb tactic of investing a hell of money into the development
::and production of the ppccards which were quite uptodate august 97...
:My point exactly. Three years ago.
Ok fine..and you think this investment came back again ?
The problem is that
o either people must pay a lot more(more than they ever did the last years)
o or *more* people have to buy products
to justify the kind of product development cycles *you* would like to see.
But as that doesn`t happen(not enough people don`t pay enough) you see
***long*** product cycles.
Another factor is that companies can`t finance big product cycles because
production costs real money or they don`t get stuff anymore(mobile market
part demand) or the parts are so expensive in the small scale demand it`s
not worth it anymore.
All factors *you* obviously have never thought about.
The PC market only works because of the throughput...if people wouldn`t
purchase new stuff in 6-18months cycles the products would be a lot more
expensive and new developments wouldn`t be there every 6 months.
::Sorry but with your mindset you have just no right to demand
::anything as *you* are the kind of guy who hasn`t invested anything into
::his amiga the last 3 years anyway.
:Let's see, an 040 Accellerator (about 2 1/2 years ago), zip to Simm
:adapter with 2 8MB Simms, a CyberVision 64/3D, 20" Sony Monitor,
:2 4GB hard drives, a CD Writer, the Ariadne II Ethernet card,
:56k modem, flatbed scanner, countless mice and other little things,
:not to mention software.....but just because I havent purchased the
:overpriced CSPPC, then I haven't invested anything into my Amiga....
:ok...if you say so, then it must be true.
Ok..real purchases were a 040 cpu, CV3d and Ariadne.
Sorry..but I bought a 040 1992...between 91 and 95 were the hightimes
of the 040 and then the 060 product cycle came...and then the PPC one.
So when the PPC one came the 040 was already 2 product generations
behind.
And now about "overpriced" CyberstormPPC.
The card was ***underpriced*** for its development, production
costs and sales numbers..
I could easily accept if somebody says...the card doesn`t offer
me functionalwise(no PPC AmigaOS for example) what i want or
i can get more cpu performance with a PC.
Fine...these are all rational arguments i can fully understand
but coming up with "overpriced"(in the context of rape in your
previous article).
Nothing can be overpriced if it doesn`t finance the costs involved
and it hadn`t paid the development costs.
To sum it up...people which developed it didn`t get their full
payment. I`m sure you would really enjoy when suddenly your
paycheck would be cutted and somebody else tells you that you
sold overpriced products and raped the market.
::Vision Factory chose this over the insecure CGX4 route where most people
::would pirate their work anyway and the rest would bother about...why
::the hell is my system so unstable.
:So I presume DCE will be giving CGX4 away with the purchase of G-rex???
DCE bought CGX4 for the Voodoo3 GRex.
::This business move about the purchase was made publicly..you
::may not like it because it collides with your own **interests** but
::your **interests** aren`t equal to **rights**.
:Wow, your true colors get brighter and brighter.
Fine that you see the sign.
:My interests are that when a company has a product on the market
:and has drivers being worked on for that product, their intentions
:are proper.
about what company are you talking about ?
Elbox had no contract with Vision Factory, paid no money...nothing.
They even got a "free" demo driver to show off their hardware without
any development payment.
:Even if I have to wait a few weeks for the update. So in your opinion,
:the only people who have a **right** to have their new hardware supported
:is people who purchase from DCE?
Why do you think you have a right to get support ?
Do I have a right to demand Windows98, MacOS X for my Amiga only
because these products exist ? Obviously not.
DCE got an exclusive licence for the CGX4 Voodoo driver, therefore
people buying a GRex with this production functionality have the
right to demand a CGX4 Voodoo driver from DCE.
:It is clear to me where the interests of DCE are, and they are not
:for the Amiga end user.
They obviously collide with *your* interests. Your interest is
to get a Voodoo3 driver for your potential purchased Mediator as
likely as possible...that`s a fair interest but it`s not a *right*
you can demand *from* Vision Factory.
Elbox is free to organize a Voodoo3 driver from everybody else.
They could wait until somebody writes the driver for p96, pays
the p96 developers, write them themself and/or (somebody) )develops
an own rtg framework.
What`s the problem here ? Sure..it costs money. Money other people
*invested* into people doing *work*.
Isn`t it a bit arrogant to expect Vision Factory to fullfill
the "impressions" Elbox caused at potential customers of
a certain product ?
Just a simple example you may understand better...
let`s assume you're the only one with a car at your village
and suddenly people demand that you drive them where they
wish. I`m sure you agree that these people don`t have any
right to demand from you to drive them where they wish.
And now imagine company x has licenced you as a taxi driver
and pays you for this job...why should company y out there
have the right to demand that you serve them too ?
:I stand by my previous posts even more now than before.
As i expected...you haven`t tried to understand what I said.
A typical situation in such public conversation where only
statements are exchanged.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 54 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by JKD on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Tony Gore):
hmm...old, overpriced PPC cards is it eh? You should've bought one ages ago anyway!
Had you bought one then Phase5 would've covered costs...there could've been new product
on the market etceteras...don't give me the crap M$ rhetoric...you talk out of your
arse mate!
Steve
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 55 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Ralph Schmidt):
"Here you have some free hardware, I call you every day about news about the
driver progress, but sorry..no..i can`t pay anything but you can sell CGX4
packages alone to the product`s users..which..well..basicly 90% of the users
pirate anyway."
Well, as a user who have bought the commercial driver system CGX4, the announcement sure is one hell of a disappointment. I spent good money to get proper driver support for current and future Amiga graphics hardware, and now DCE and VFD has made a contract which excludes the Mediator Voodoo3 support from CGX users. That's the user's viewpoint, and that is what matters to users.
It is ok to have a broad perspective, but to the end user, the following questions are the most important:
1.What do I want?
Answer: A cheap and functional PCI interface.
2.Who can give me this?
Answer: Elbox, DCE or Eyetech if I have a BlizzardPPC card, only Elbox if I don't. (I personally do)
3.What else do I need?
Answer: Drivers for a broad range of PCI cards, the Voodoo3 being of particular interest due to its favorable price/performance ratio, as well as popularity in the Amiga community.
4.Who can give me this?
Answer: With CGX being the standard GFX card driver system for the Amiga, VFD would be an obvious answer.
With VFD and DCE now cooperating not only in supporting the G-Rex, but also in NOT supporting the Mediator, the path for most Amiga users to gain reasonably priced access to PCI graphics cards have been made a lot more difficult.
The technical issues pointed out by Mr.Schmidt might have some, maybe even significant, relevance to VFD and other people writing drivers, but to the user it doesn't matter. As long as the Mediator is the only solution which doesn't require the BlizzardPPC to work, it will be the only sensible option for many people. Another thing is that availability is essential. The Mediator already exists, now we want drivers for it ASAP. In fact, I personally wouldn't mind getting preliminary drivers which would only work when the Voodoo3 card is alone in the Mediator, while waiting for a driver which handles those memory window issues.
Kay
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 56 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Mark Olsen):
Exactly! And you don't think this is a problem? The Amiga certainly doesn't
use memory this way, but hey an IBM clone is a wonder of the world.
You have an IBM clone for example with 512MB of RAM, but the OS is
so lame that you can only use the larger part of the 640K base memory
to execute code. Pray to god that you have enough of this small piece
of memory to run anything...ehehe
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 57 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Olivier Fabre on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
Anyway BlizzardPPC are not available... so where are we going to plug any G-Rex ?
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 58 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (Tony Gore):
>So in your opinion, the only people who have a **right** to have their new >hardware supported is people who purchase from DCE?
What kind of argument is this? Of course, the only ones who have the right to demand a driver are those who paid for it. DCE and their future customers paid for it. If you consider to buy a mediator board, or if you already did, you have the right to demand support from elbox but how can you claim that Frank Mariak has the obligation to support you for free? And regarding the exclusivity of the agreement: do you really think that it would be fair for DCE's customers to pay for development of a driver and elbox' customers freeriding on it? I don't think so
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 59 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by S. de Vries on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Olivier Fabre):
.Anyway BlizzardPPC are not available... so where are we going to plug any G-Rex ?
They are availeble for people who ordered them long time ago.
And for all you people think you need a BlizzardPPC the 'new'BlizzardNG wil also take the GREX. Just like the Cyberstorm MKIII. The same ppc boards only whitout a PPC.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 60 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Olivier Fabre on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (S. de Vries):
> the 'new'BlizzardNG wil also take the GREX.
And when will it be available then ?
> The same ppc boards only whitout a PPC.
?
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 61 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by A mail to DCE on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
I just sent a mail to DCE, featuring the fact that they've bought the exclusive
rights for the Voodoo-drivers. I'm probably not sure what it's all about, so I'd like to hear some opinions about the email.
here:
Starting a PCI-war between DCE and Mediator is
stupid, this is why:
War:
- Less people will buy any kind of PCI-busboard,
because they will be insecure about the PCI's future
on amiga, since the different manufactorers keeps
fighting against eachother.
- Some people will not buy G-REX cause of DCE's
propaganda.
- Some people WILL buy G-REX cause of it's propaganda.
Not War:
- More people WILL buy any kind of PCI-busboards, because
the manufactorers co-operate, they make drivers together
and the developement seems to go only one way; up.
- Since more people will buy PCI-busboards, more people
will also buy G-REX, and if G-REX is a better product,
G-REX will also get more popular, and DCE will sell
more of them.
There are now planned 3 (one is out)pci-busboards, as far
as I know, a war will not be a gain for any of those 3.
If they co-operate, they will make a much better marked
for PCI on amiga.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 62 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Ralph Schmidt):
WTF!!!!!!!
Now this justifies the VFD action!?? I don't blame DCE because they had to do something because the Mediator is already for sale and the G-rex not.
And YOU dare to say: "You act out of anger because of your limited viewpoint".
It's like selling the exclusive rights to have access to highways to Mercedes while WE pay taxes to build the highways.
WE have paided for CGFX 4 (At least I did) I don't care that when other ppl pirate it, VFD has to decide in which PCI busboard i'm allowed to use a Voodoo3 and in which not.
DCE want's to have exclusive rights to voodoo3 drivers for CGFX3?? That fine with me, because it's free.
VFD already started with Voodoo3 2D drivers for the mediator and so what if they can only acces 8MB as a 2D framebuffer......
THe warp3D team will overcome the other problems with their 3D drivers because they want to sell more games (HereticII is slow on this BVision).
And about you Ralphy SHIT.
HAMAS found itself a new target!!!
This is ofcourse bullshit, but this is what I (and a lot of other users) feel about you and your propaganda talk for DCE and VFD, and very insulting posts here on ANN.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 63 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (Amifan):
I've just bought a Mediator, and DCE-thing made me insecure
about my purchase. However, people should come with REAL
argument, and not just personal-attack poeple as Ralph S,
who really knows how to make good arguments, even though
know little about wether what he says is true or not.
Developers as Frank Mariak(or whatever it is) SHOULD get
paid for making drivers that everyone wants, and if Elbox
really want Mediator-users to get Voodoo-drivers they should
also put some money into it. If they bought a CGX4 license
for each Mediator they sold, and added them to the Mediator
packages, it would be a really nice deal, since everybody
who needs CGX4 should buy it anyway. This is how it works
when you buy a PC too, you always get Windows since you need
it :P and it doesn't matter if you already got a license.
Well, this is currently my point of view. I really hope DCE,
Elbox and Eyetech could one day start co-operating, because
I think 3 together are stronger than 3 fighting eachothers,
especially on Amiga which has such a small marked.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 64 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Anders Kjeldsen):
It's a personal attack on a persion who made an attack on us, amiga users.
PCI board exclusive drivers is rediculous.
What if eyetech buys a voodoo5 exclusive driver and elbox buy a Radeon exclusive driver.
What if Elbox had the same dirty tactics and buy a Radeon AND voodoo3 exclusive Warp3D driver?? The cgfx voodoo3 driver is useless with 3D only games.
What if the P96 team buys a p96 exclusive SIN version by Hyperion??
This has nothing to do with supporting the cgfx developement. It's just dirty tactics. Actually it's very low.......And who are the victims once again?? WE amiga users.
But i'd rather buy a mediator with a sharkPPC@550 Mhz and play the Hyperions games with software rendering then be forced to buy a G-rex to make use of a voodoo3.
It's really the MS way: If I can't beat my opponent, then i'll just buy the victory.
Anyway...The SHARKPPC is MEDIATOR EXCLUSIVE!!! :))) So it's for us to decide.....Have a dead slow 603e and a voodoo3 or have a G3@550Mhz!!!!!
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 65 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (Amifan):
Ok..so you have paid for CGX4 and that suddenly gives you the
right to demand the right for future work ?
Interesting concept...so when i paid you for some work years
ago i can demand you work for me forever. I would call that
slavery but you probably understand this as the natural
born right of your person as an amigan.
It`s really nice that you already know that the warp3d team
will *overcome* the problems you denied some weeks ago would
even exist.
Is it so difficult to devide between wishful thinking and
reality ?
And now about your typical name calling. I haven`t called
you any names. I presented my opionion about the situation
and a lot technical facts in other threads before which let
you run amok for some weird reason i can`t understand.
But be sure...i enjoy that...imagine the power..i only
have to say a digit and it would make you mad like hell:-)
(6.6MB/s...ooops..I did it a again):-)
BTW..if you think this is propapanda you don`t get it.
I`m here to discuss *technical* issues and if the GRex will
have serious technical limitations which make driver development
in the context of amigaos unstable i would also make them
open.
As an user i would appreciate full technical analysis of a product
before i purchase it.
If the analysis is wrong everybody can prove the opposite in open.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 66 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 64 (Amifan):
Amifan, you make the same mistake over and over.
Elbox has announced a PCI PPC G3 card, which is surely possible.
But they haven`t said *anything* about the software which runs
on it.(From a technical perspective i think it`s highly unlikely
that a mixed mode system like warpos/powerup will work acceptable).
And you jump to the conclusion that because there`s a PPC possible
it suddenly runs all the ppc software out there.
On what do you base this assumption ?
Because you assume it`s common sense that it would run it because
otherwise a ppc board makes no sense ?
That`s an extremely naive viewpoint....why don`t you let them prove
that their announced ppc board runs the warpos sw to a satisfying
level ?
Then every interested users can order it because it does what it
should do and not because what you *assume* what it should do.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 67 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Ralph Schmidt):
OK, so you pay for a voodoo3 driver, and you have sudenly the rights to make it PCI busboard exclusive???
6.6MB/sec because of the mediator? well, other posting showed the opposite. 6.6MB/sec with the Mediator + BlizzardPPC...yup...that's true??? Who's to blame?? Elbox or Phase5....
>"It`s really nice that you already know that the warp3d team
>will *overcome* the problems you denied some weeks ago would
>even exist."
I'm referring to problems which VFD faced when developing a 2D driver.....
I I didn't deny anything....I DID say that nothing is impossible, just YOU think it's impossible.
>I`m here to discuss *technical* issues and if the GRex will
>have serious technical limitations which make driver development
>in the context of amigaos unstable i would also make them
>open.
OK let's discuss the limitations in usage......you can only use it with a BlizzardPPC....603e is the MAX.
Elbox delivers a G3/G4 card......Talking about limitations.
>I would call that
>slavery but you probably understand this as the natural
>born right of your person as an amigan.
Sorry, are you from eastern Germany??? It's the right of every person to choose....not to have other ppl make that for you.....
>And now about your typical name calling. I haven`t called
>you any names.
Not me, but the amiga user....hey...guess what...i'm an amiga user!! *doh*
I can't blame you for this propaganda, you're a former employee of P5, so the G-rex and BlizzardPPC are kinda your products.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 68 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (Amifan):
:OK, so you pay for a voodoo3 driver, and you have sudenly the rights
:to make it PCI busboard exclusive???
Sure..if you licence it that way. It obviously costs more than
a shared licence. Common business strategy everywhere.
:6.6MB/sec because of the mediator? well, other posting showed the opposite.
:6.6MB/sec with the Mediator + BlizzardPPC...yup...that's true???
:Who's to blame?? Elbox or Phase5....
Well..i have no problem with that, as i haven`t made the claim that it
would be 2x faster than the visionppc interface.
::"It`s really nice that you already know that the warp3d team
::will *overcome* the problems you denied some weeks ago would
::even exist."
:I'm referring to problems which VFD faced when developing a 2D driver.....
:I I didn't deny anything....I DID say that nothing is impossible,
:just YOU think it's impossible.
Everybody can read your comments in the 2-3 mediator threads here
where you denied that bank switching is a serious problem and you
also first denied the performance problem.
Well..unlike you i can give educated opinions about what is possible
and what`s impossible about lowlevel driver issues in amigaos because
*that's* what i did the last 10 years.
::I`m here to discuss *technical* issues and if the GRex will
::have serious technical limitations which make driver development
::in the context of amigaos unstable i would also make them
::open.
:OK let's discuss the limitations in usage......you can only use it
:with a BlizzardPPC....603e is the MAX.
That`s fully right...it`s limited to the current HW.
:Elbox delivers a G3/G4 card......Talking about limitations.
While not proving this G3/G4 card runs the warpos sw people like
you want. It`s like saying....
:I would call that
:slavery but you probably understand this as the natural
:born right of your person as an amigan.
:Sorry, are you from eastern Germany??? It's the right of every
I`m not from east germany and no i`m no skinhead and no i
don`t run around burn down houses.
(But i like the Talking Heads`s "Burning down this house" song.
song...in this word gimmick the house stands for your
emotional driven view of the world:-)
:person to choose....not to have other ppl make that for you.....
Fine..so you agree that Vision Factory and DCE have the right to
choose who they work for, who they sell something and if the
conditions are exclusive or shared and that other ppl(like you)
don`t choose what Vision Factory can do with *their* work.
Maybe you should check any western country`s business laws about
contracts between 2 parties.
::And now about your typical name calling. I haven`t called
::you any names.
:Not me, but the amiga user....hey...guess what...i'm an amiga user!! *doh*
I did what again ?
:I can't blame you for this propaganda, you're a former employee of P5,
:so the G-rex and BlizzardPPC are kinda your products.
What`s the propaganda here...i present my opinion...an opinion which
represents common business sense.
You present an opinion which is emotionally influenced and project your
anger that Elbox doesn`t deliver a voodoo3 driver (for the forseeable time
until they found a different solution) on the party which has such driver
but has in no way any business relationship with *YOU* or *Elbox*.
Is it so difficult so see it how it is ?....your interests collide with
other people`s interests and as you have no right into other people`s
interests your interests have no value to these parties.
That`s capitalism.....
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 69 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Anonymous):
Sorry..forgot "Ralph Schmidt" above. I don't post anonymous here.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 70 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
It seems like a lot of people think that Voodoo-drivers will NEVER come for
Mediator, but that's not true? Hasn't DCE just bought the exclusive rights
for CGX4's drivers? Which means that everyone else can develope Voodoo drivers
for Mediator? In that case, I think the (new) Mediator drivers should be CGX-compatibles..
It's sad for Mediator owners that DCE bought the "exclusive" rights, but I still
wish that Elbox later can pay CGX/Frank Mariak to develop the same drivers for Mediator, unless some better(or equally good) drivers already have been made.
In other words; I hope DCE takes a look on how "angry" people has become, and
do a little change in their deal, which allows CGX to make other Voodoo-drivers
for other PCI-busboards, because I really don't think they'll be popular at all
with the current arrangements.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 71 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
Wow, over 70 comments. Can we beat the Alive Mediasoft thread some
time ago, you think?
Seriously, this is starting to take form as a fight rather than
debate. Amifan, although I agree with some of your viewpoints, I don't
think it is very honorable of you to flame Ralph Schmidt here,
especially as he is posting with his real name, while you are using
an alias. Racist statements like "Sorry, are you from eastern
Germany???????" doesn't help strengthen your credibility either. Oh,
and although most people probably share your dislike of the deal
between VFD and DCE, you do NOT represent the entire Amiga userbase,
as you sometimes try to make it seem.
Ralph, I don't think anybody here quesions the fact that the deal in
discussion is legal, but that is not the point here. The point is that
the Mediator Voodoo 3 has been robbed of the possibility for CGX
support, which is, and I'm getting tired of repeating myself, the
unofficial standard for graphics card drivers for the Amiga. VFD are
not legally bound by this, but I, and probably many others, had
expected VFD to act more in the Amiga community's interest. I know
that buying CGX4 didn't give me a right to get free drivers for the
rest of my lifetime, but I expected a commercial driver system not to
be tied to certain hardware manufacturers. Don't you think this is a
fair assumption?
No flames please, if I am wrong about something, simply correct me.
Thanks.
Kay
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 72 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
You said the key word..."expected"...so you project your own
wishes/hopes/whatever on other people that these act to your
interests.
Sure..we all do that all the time but the difference is when
this results into "demands" which are completely unfounded.
Accept it and go over it....that`s life.
To sum it up...Vision Factory choose a direct payment over the
insecure own distribution of the driver because of several
aspects(serious piracy, less money, stability/support problems)
Everybody else here which finances his life would do the same
choice.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 73 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Anonymous):
>Everybody else here which finances his life would do the same
>choice.
Sure, but you destroy the market, destroy Eyetech and Elbox....Voodoo3 is about the best (appart from the hard to program v5) 3D PCI gfx card.
(it's harder then hard to program drivers for nVidia products if they don't release any specs of their chips).
Remember Elbox announced a PCI busboard...the others folowed....Eyetech tried to destroy it by words, and now DCE destoys it by claiming the exclusive rights of the most wanted gfx driver, the voodoo3
About the perfomance issue...
I always said that the combination Mediator+blizzardPPC is bad. It gives you even the worst performance of all combinations.
What's the matter, don't you want to get it??
The world is not only BlizzardPPC. The Mediator perfoms well with all other accelerators. Actually at least as well as the VisionPPC pci bridge.
Did I even mention that the bankswitching is not hard to program??
THis could be true, I don't know, but I always denied your 6.6MB with all accelerators. Every serious card exept the BlizzardPPC can do at least 12MB/sec.
And about the bankswitching problem on the sw side. Nothing is impossible. Not even sharing memory between a 68K and PPC without conflicts......
I'm sure that the talented programmers of the WarpOS team can make a warpOS driver for the sharkPPC. It's even in their own intrest.
More warpOS PPC cards mean a larger market for H&P PPC programs, it's in the interest of Hyperion (more games) etc...
PowerUP?? gee when did I use THAT for the last time?? I don't even use the PUP emu software
So let's say it once more:
1)Your performance issues were limited to the combination with the BlizzardPPC.
My statements were about all cards, I agreed so often with you that this combination sucks.
But the Apollo060/66 can do up to 3 times more then the BlizzardPPCs 6.6MB/sec. It' faster then the BVisionPPC bridge
2) The 603 was outdated allready when it appeared on the amiga, and the other solutions can be used with the BlizzardPPC only.
This is why I kept saying and delivering benchmarks, that the Mediator performs well with other accelerators. But for some reasons you just talked about the BlizzardPPCs bad performance over and over again if it was a general performance issue with the mediator. THIS IS NOT TRUE!!
3)Tadaaaa!!! There' a G3/G4 announcement. "it's vapourware until it arrives..." true, but that's what they said about the mediator too
4)WTF is DCE doing!?? destroying the market!? What if Elbox doesn't sell enough Mediators to justify the developement of the sharkPPC?
I understand why DCE is doing it, they want to sell the G-Rex. But there are some rules!!
5)I don't see why there can't be a system with a normal 68K accelerator and a G3 in a pci slot....both fro a hw and sw point of view.
Please unlash your amigaOS lowlevel theory on this.
6) I kow, Business is war, but this is all from a user's point of view.
7) What value does it add if I post with my real name or my nickname. You probably never heard of it anyway.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 74 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Papa Mike on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Amifan):
Doesnt anything ever run smoothly in the Amiga world? *sigh*
I think the main problem here is not that the mediator wont see Voodoo 3, its the fact that the very thing the Amiga is fighting against ( the m$ style monopoly ) is actually happening on our own turf. :(( No matter how good their reasons are, its still unfair and uncompetitive practice.. something which m$ were found guilty of by law.
It always seems to be about money, doesnt it! But hey, I'm sure someone will give us a good graphics card for the mediator, once the mist clears :o)
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 75 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 15-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Amifan):
In reply to Comment 68 (Anonymous):
:Everybody else here which finances his life would do the same
:choice.
:Sure, but you destroy the market, destroy Eyetech and Elbox....Voodoo3 is about
:the best (appart from the hard to program v5) 3D PCI gfx card.
*I* do what ? Heh..it gets better now.
:(it's harder then hard to program drivers for nVidia products if
:they don't release any specs of their chips).
:Remember Elbox announced a PCI busboard...the others folowed....
:Eyetech tried to destroy it by words, and now DCE destoys it by
:claiming the exclusive rights of the most wanted gfx driver, the voodoo3
what claiming ?...They bought the exclusive work like it`s done
everywhere now today on this planet. Somebody sells his exclusive
work time as an employer to company A, company B gets the exclusive
distribution rights for country C, company C licences product X
from company D exlusively..
:About the perfomance issue...
:I always said that the combination Mediator+blizzardPPC is bad.
:It gives you even the worst performance of all combinations.
You said it after *I* had to post the bustests several times.
:What's the matter, don't you want to get it??
:The world is not only BlizzardPPC. The Mediator perfoms well with
:all other accelerators. Actually at least as well as the VisionPPC
:pci bridge.
Sure..the Mediator is an ok product for 68k people if they ignore the
bank switching issue and/or people write a mmu solution to the problem
to work around it.
It`s just a very bad choice for the existing PPC board....that`s what
I always said but you never try to remember what i say.
:Did I even mention that the bankswitching is not hard to program??
You still don`t understand the issue completely.
Everybody can read your mediator thread entries on the inofficial
ann page.
:THis could be true, I don't know, but I always denied your 6.6MB
: with all accelerators. Every serious card exept the BlizzardPPC
:can do at least 12MB/sec.
The Apollo only gets that because it doesn`t follow the CBM
timing specs which will lead to 2 times resets with IDE for
example. But that`s not something i care about.
The point is that people wanna use it for playing 3d games and
sorry...that`s only sort of possible with the PPC.
:And about the bankswitching problem on the sw side. Nothing
:is impossible. Not even sharing memory between a 68K and PPC
:without conflicts......
Do you wanna tell me a lesson how to do that ? I`m curious now.
:I'm sure that the talented programmers of the WarpOS team can
:make a warpOS driver for the sharkPPC. It's even in their own intrest.
"Because you`re sure"...interesting...you don`t have the slightest
idea about the programming issues involved and you`re "sure".
Do you walk that way through your life...being sure ?
There`s a problem...it has to be analysed...and *i* analysed the
involed problems for a dual mixed mode solution with this proposed
pci ppc system and it`s *not* worth the hassle.
And imho Elbox`s HW developer surely hasn`t thought through
all these issues otherwise a fair marketing would be different
as it would tell everybody about the involved limitations.
That`s what *I* did....i`m sure that Elbox didn`t like that but
maybe these infos gave interested people some overview which
they hadn`t before.
:More warpOS PPC cards mean a larger market for H&P PPC programs,
:it's in the interest of Hyperion (more games) etc...
:PowerUP?? gee when did I use THAT for the last time??
:I don't even use the PUP emu software
Look...i don`t care if you use it or not. You can`t
hurt/tease/annoy me or whatever you expect to cause with
such comments.
:So let's say it once more:
:1)Your performance issues were limited to the combination with
the BlizzardPPC.
Ahh..so the 9.3MB/s with a 68040/40Mhz BlizzardMK4 isn`t still
slower than the BVisionPPC interface ?
And that series is the most sold 1200 card by far.
:My statements were about all cards, I agreed so often with you
:that this combination sucks.
Ahh..really. Then you must have written that in different threats
as all the comments you gave were "you`re wrong", "it can be done",
"I`m sure they solve it" or personal insults.
:But the Apollo060/66 can do up to 3 times more then the BlizzardPPCs
:6.6MB/sec. It' faster then the BVisionPPC bridge
I remember somebody with a BlizzardPPC with a 50mhz 060 showed
18MB/s...so what ? This isn`t about who has the fastest 68k card
bending the motherboard timings.
This is about...is the Mediator useful for PPC owners and imho
it`s not. I`ve explained the involved hw problems several times by now.
:2) The 603 was outdated allready when it appeared on the amiga, and
:the other solutions can be used with the BlizzardPPC only.
It`s a 603e, not a 603. Both are significant different cpus.
Besides that it was the lowcost, lowscale solution for people
with an 1200.
:This is why I kept saying and delivering benchmarks, that the
:Mediator performs well with other accelerators.
:But for some reasons you just talked about the BlizzardPPCs
:bad performance over and over again if it was a general
:performance issue with the mediator. THIS IS NOT TRUE!!
I gave perfomance values with BlizzardPPC, Blizzard MK4 and
told everybody how do the test for themselfs.
:3)Tadaaaa!!! There' a G3/G4 announcement. "it's vapourware until it arrives..."
:true, but that's what they said about the mediator too
Who said what ?...who`s "they" now ? And what has this to do with me ?
:4)WTF is DCE doing!?? destroying the market!? What if Elbox doesn't
:sell enough Mediators to justify the developement of the sharkPPC?
So DCE destroys "the market" with *paying* the sw developers to
do the job for their coming HW ?
That this obviously hurts Elbox`s marketing/business plan which
was based on "let`s make a cheap hw, throw some bones about
possible HW usages and let the users do the drivers they need
to use the HW".
:I understand why DCE is doing it, they want to sell the G-Rex.
:But there are some rules!!
Yes...contract laws between 2 parties written in at least
western countries business law books.
:5)I don't see why there can't be a system with a normal 68K
: accelerator and a G3 in a pci slot....both fro a hw and sw
:point of view.
I know that you don`t understand a lot of these lowlevel details.
Why don`t you first try to understand how the mixed mode kernels
actually work and then think through what you have to do to
implement this with this SharkPPC sitting on a bank switching
device. 68040/68060 and PPC manuals about MMU and Cache usage
are good areas to read and *understand* first.
:Please unlash your amigaOS lowlevel theory on this.
I did this already on Moobunny some days ago...
:6) I kow, Business is war, but this is all from a user's point of view.
:7) What value does it add if I post with my real name or my nickname.
:You probably never heard of it anyway.
At least people could see *who* is talking there...i talk everywhere
with open face and if i critisize something i don`t need to hide
behind some anonymous entities unlike several other people here.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 76 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Phil Lewin on 16-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
Ok I've just finished reading this entire thread and made up my mind to get a mediator and shark ppc 550mhz solution for my 1200. Just ordered it from blittersoft, total price @£507.00. It sounds like something I can work with at least. Just need to get the Amiga SDK to run on it then I will be sorted! My amiga Hex life was beginning to wane a little but maybe a bit more power under the bonnet is just what We need right now!
Cheers fellow amiga dudes!
Phil Lewin
(PS2 Developer SCEE)
Tick Tick Tick How much longer must I wait!!!!!!!!!
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 77 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 16-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Ralph Schmidt):
You are such an impossible person, one wouldn't be married with you.
We got a word for ppl like you in holland: triest.
Maybe there's a little language barrier here!??
>:Everybody else here which finances his life would do the same
>:choice.
>:Sure, but you destroy the market, destroy Eyetech and Elbox....Voodoo3 is >about
>:the best (appart from the hard to program v5) 3D PCI gfx card.
>*I* do what ? Heh..it gets better now.
"You" doesn't mean Ralph Schmidt, but "you" in general
>what claiming ?...They bought the exclusive work like it`s done
>everywhere now today on this planet. Somebody sells his exclusive
>work time as an employer to company A, company B gets the exclusive
>distribution rights for country C, company C licences product X
>from company D exlusively..
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LEGAL CONCERNS!!! I'M ALLOWED TO BUY MS AND BE THE WORLD DOMINATOR IN SOFTWARE BUSINESS! I"M ALLOWED TO BUY GERMANY IN ORDER TO EXPAND HOLLAND. BLA BLA BLA.
This is not the point, but you simply don't want to get it. The point is that DCE destroys the future of the amiga with this move. They are not able to deliver a G3/G4 card. So that's 1-0 for elbox. But ppl want a voodoo3 now to use with their exsisting ppc solution. VFD will only make a v3 driver for the G-rex, so if you want to use a v3 now, your only option is the G-rex.
Ppl will buy the G-rex instead of the mediator. Elbox sells not enough mediators to justify the developement costs of the sharkPPC. -> SharkPPC on hold -> DCE won -> we still have a slow 603 to play games......->Games speed is still slower then it should be -> ppl complain more -> even more ppl are leaving the market -> Hyperion can't affort the ports of pc games to the amiga anymore because of low sales....
So let's summarize this for you:
1) DCE has the legal rights to do so
2) It's even a smart idea (sounds like the MS way BTW)
3) It's destoying future developement
4) It's just a low by the ground, dirty, hey-we-are-not-capable-enough-to-deliver-a-G3-so-we-must-destroy-your-sales trick.
(Don't even dare to reply with your compagny A,B,C...Z stuff)
>You said it after *I* had to post the bustests several times.
I did my bustest before the mediator was announced!!
I did my bustest when I benchmarked my Powerflyer EIDE controller. I mailed elbox about why it's soooo slow (only 4.88MB/sec while they advertised with 11MB/sec). They replied to me that it's because of the worse busperformance of the BlizzardPPC.
They advised me to do a bustest on the blizzardPPC and see for myself.
I was even the first on here who addresses the BlizzardPPC busperformance issue.
Just read the the postings on the announcement of the Mediator. To summarize this to you:
1) You said that the Mediator is the problem of the bad performance.
2) I said that the BlizzardPPC is the only card with this slow transfer rates. the other accelerators perform much better
3) You said that the performance of the Mediator would equal the read/write(?) speeds to the amiga kickrom. You wanted the ppl here to believe that this is the maximum performance with all cards. Then *I* wanted other ppl to do a bustest with their accelerator by downloading the program bustest.lha from aminet.
>It`s just a very bad choice for the existing PPC board....that`s what
>I always said but you never try to remember what i say.
Aaaaarg!!! Do I really read this!!???
I said that the Mediator+BlizzardPPC is a VERY bad combination when it comes with bus performance (4.9MB/s on my system).
What do you want to say with writing this. You know that I'm right and know you want it to look like you stated the perfomance issue and that *I* said that it's the best combination!?
Is it april the first yet!??
About the bankswitching. Why not put the 68K task on hold while handling the PPC bankswitching? What were you supposed to do when playing a game???
>Sure..the Mediator is an ok product for 68k
It's ok too if they want to upgrade their exsisting 603e. You can leave the BlizzardPPC in place and buy the SharkPPC. I'm sure that WarpOS team will develope a WarpOS driver (like they did for the Blizzard/CyberstormPPC without charging money to anyone).
>The point is that people wanna use it for playing 3d games and
>sorry...that`s only sort of possible with the PPC.
Keep the exsisting BlizzardPPC in place...add a mediator and a SharkPPC.
>There`s a problem...it has to be analysed...and *i* analysed the
>involed problems for a dual mixed mode solution with this proposed
>pci ppc system and it`s *not* worth the hassle.
G3 vs. 603e?? PIII performance vs. PI performance is not worth the hassle??
Is this HOW you walk though YOUR life??? Ow hey, I have to be inventive......nah they don't pay me for that.....I don't like to sweat. Why did they invent the amiga in the first place???
<SACRASM>
Are you scared about progress where YOU weren't involved.
You keep saying that you're over 10 year involved in the amiga business... That makes you a very proud guy doesn't it.
</SARCASM>
>Ahh..so the 9.3MB/s with a 68040/40Mhz BlizzardMK4 isn`t still
>slower than the BVisionPPC interface ?
Still faster then BlizzardPPC.
>:My statements were about all cards, I agreed so often with you
>:that this combination sucks.
>Ahh..really. Then you must have written that in different threats
>as all the comments you gave were "you`re wrong", "it can be done",
>"I`m sure they solve it" or personal insults.
What the hell are you talking about now again. I am talking about transfer speeds, but it seems to me that you're talking again about the bankswitching stuff.
(see the language barrier problem)
>I remember somebody with a BlizzardPPC with a 50mhz 060 showed
>18MB/s...so what ? This isn`t about who has the fastest 68k card
>bending the motherboard timings.
>This is about...is the Mediator useful for PPC owners and imho
>it`s not
Oh surely. PPC owners wanted more speed over the 68k (including me)
Now there's an opportunity to get G3 speeds.
So is the mediator usefull for current PPC owners? YES!
>It`s a 603e, not a 603
*doh* wanna be more precise? It's a MPC603E PID6 or 7?? hmm... voltage is 3.3V so that makes it a PID6?
Ppl could think that it's a MPE603E PID 6, but that the embedded version.
What bankswitching problems with the SharkPPC?? The SharkPPC got his own memory on board and a gfx card sitting on the same bus. You can even execute native PPC progs instead of mixed mode stuff.....
Final note on the busperformance issue. Take a PCI gfx
operating at 66Mhz. the sharkPPC can access (in theory) the card with 66M*(64bit/8)528MB/sec...
ralph: if your knowledgelevel is SOOOOOO much higher then mine...why reply in the first place?
Your comments must be undiscusable true.
It sounds to much to me like your speaking with your own products in mind. (P5 stuff)
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 78 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 16-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Amifan):
Hi
Laire once said there *MAY* be a new PPC motherboard for MorphOS...
I doubt that Ralph Schimdt is wasting his time for a OS that can
only run on Blizzard603/CSPPC 604 and then will be forgotten forever...
MorphOS team won't support SharkPPC and other CPU boards, because they
will be busy when their planned PPC motherboard is released to developers...
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 79 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 16-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (Phil Lewin):
It might be better to ask the WarpOS team first if they are planning to support this developement.
They are the ones to ask.
Afterall they found out that there was a better way to use the PPC cards instead of using the PowerUP solution presented by the lowlevel specialist.
(OK I admit, this is not fair from me).
(- "Lowlevel" is really a problem for the current developements
Ask DCE how they lowered their level of sales tactics. -)
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 80 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 16-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Sinan Gurkan):
MorphOS is NOT warpOS based nor thy plan to support it. They won't even write an equel to the Powerup Emulation library.
All commercial games and even the PPC version of warp3D are WarpOS based. So are most of the commercial PPC programs. Some PowerUP programs can be run on warpOS with the PowerUP emulation library (like apdfPPC for instance). I didn't test any other programs. (go to www.ppcrulez.com to see a view progs which can run on the PUP emu)
This makes MorphOS a nice attempt to a PPC only OS, but useless for most of the current PPC programs.
Why the MorphOS team won't make a WarpOS emu??
Maybe something to do with a little kernel war and proud? Ralph?
About the PPC mainboard? Who's gonna make that??
Ralph said in a comment something about MAC hardware...
Yeah....let's buy a $$$$ dual G4 cube.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 81 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 16-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Sinan Gurkan):
AmiFan and Ralph Schimdt forget it...
Haage Partner/Hyperion will support Mediator and Shark PPC..Maybe
current WarpUP programs won't work with PCI g3 solution..but I believe
they will patched/re-written for new CPU boards..Anyway I am sure
that H&P and Hyperion will to migrate to AmigaOne and AMIE in late 2001.
MorphOS will run on current PPC hardware, and then maybe on a new PPC motherboard and if that doesn't happen it will run on Macintosh hardware..
It is both good for MorphOS and WarpOS..They will be completely 2 different things..People won't ask for emulation to each other...
Just accept that it is impossible to find a unified PPC solution for Amiga from now on..The train was missed in 1997/98...
AmigaPPC is a now a 2 path road that leads different to destinations...
Choose your path and go on...
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 82 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 16-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (Sinan Gurkan):
first a short note: If H&p/Hyperion will support the mediator (I assume the 3d accelerators) they need a 2D driver in order to write a 3D driver. the beloved voodoo3 2d driver for the mediator is AFAIK far away.
This good news anyway. Hyperion stated that they will support a v3 and make some changes to the H2 executable.
I think this means something like that they need to rewrite Warp3D to let unsupported functions like the blending modes be emulated bu Warp3D instead of H2.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 83 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 16-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Amifan):
Oops...the memory speed is 66Mhz (66M*(64bit/8) =528Mbyte/sec :)
I'm glad that noone else noticed my mistake :)
The PCI bus speed is 66Mhz*(32bit/8)264MByte/sec
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 84 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Yoris/Hyperion on 16-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (Sinan Gurkan):
For the moment, Hyperion want to support Mediator, as soon as there're 2d drivers for a powerful 3D board, we hope for the Voodoo3.
But for the Elbox Shark G3/G4, we don't know for the moment. We need much more technical details and specs before deciding anything.
For example we don't know if the SharkPPC will use WarpOS. And all our tools rely on WarpOS...
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 85 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Olivier Fabre on 17-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Ralph Schmidt):
Ralph Schmidt wrote :
> The Apollo only gets that because it doesn`t follow the CBM
> timing specs which will lead to 2 times resets with IDE for
> example.
What are you talking about ?
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 86 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 17-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (Olivier Fabre):
It`s motherboard access timing is too fast which may cause
certain problems like...you need more than 1 reset, startup ide
problems and so on.
If it works for you fine..
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 87 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Olivier Fabre on 17-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (Ralph Schmidt):
Ok. I have no problem with my Apollo 1260/66.
On the other hand, I know that some people need to do a manual reset to boot with their Blizzard + AtéoBus.
PPC board for the Mediator : Comment 88 of 88ANN.lu
Posted by Alcemyst on 17-Oct-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Ralph Schmidt):
Apollo at 66Mhz....LOL
i run mine at 80Mhz Full MMU & FPU
np boots first time from cold
every time, for over 2 years. on 20 hours a day
Anonymous, there are 88 items in your selection (but only 38 shown due to limitation) [1 - 50] [51 - 88]
Back to Top