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[News] Eyetech clarify similarities and differences...ANN.lu
Posted on 03-Nov-2000 15:55 GMT by Christian Kemp34 comments
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Eyetech Group Ltd have released a new press release, with a factual clarification of similarities and differences between the AmigaOne 1200 & 4000, the Predator, GRex and Mediator boards. It has to be said that this is probably highly controversial material, and that interested customers should also seek third party advice, especially as far as Eyetech's opinion on the Mediator is concerned.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 1 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Kojak on 02-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
Thanks Eyetech, that clarifies a lot! :)
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 2 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Juergen Schober on 02-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Kojak):
Hm, does it clarify things? Well, don't think so.
The last paragraph about Mediator is pure speculation
(and IMO not true at all, why should a busmaster PCI device rely on the 8MB barrier?
The Amiga in this case could be mapped completely into the PPC space -
PCI->Amiga mapping doesn't need any offset register...there is only one 8MB (usually 24bit addresses, which gives you in fact 8 MB on board Amiga space and 8 MB Z2 space) area...
though then there is IRQ etc...)
I think these guys shouldn't talk so much but release that stuff so we can see ourselves.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 3 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Time Will Tell on 02-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
There was a need to clarify the point about the G3/4 emu ofthe 68k because I
have seen some posts in other forums expressing confusion on this subject. It
is sure happening fast now isn't it.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 4 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Eagle One on 02-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
"In our view a small cardboard box provides much more cost-effective storage for an unused accelerator card"
>
I really don't think so...a real 68k accel. is always more reliable than a emulation, so is better to have both solutions (emulator and, 68k accelerator if the damn thing doesn't run in the emul.)
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 5 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 02-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
This press release is probably very factual about Eyetech's own
products. For the Mediator however, it is simply biased speculation.
For example:
"For its intended (non Amiga DE, non-G3/G4, non-Amiga DE-compatible)
A1200 upgrade market this is certainly a workable option."
Come on Eyetech, how is this factual? Not only is this speculation, it
is speculation which directly contradict Elbox's own statements on
these issues. Besides. Non Amiga DE and non-Amiga DE-compatible is not
two but one piece of wrong information... If Amiga choose not to
support Elbox's solution it would very much contradict their
hardware/platform independent strategy.
Kay
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 6 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 02-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
Elbox would need to pay Amiga to develop such a solution for these SharkPPC cards.
Eyetech also pays them to do it for their cards.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 7 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Richard Brooklyn on 02-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
>If Amiga choose not to
>support Elbox's solution it would very much contradict their
>hardware/platform independent strategy.
Amiga aren't going to support the Mediator; they don't have to anyway.
To get the AmigaDE to run on the classic Amigas, you just have to
install Linux, and then install the AmigaDE on top of that. To my
understanding, the AmigaDE will make use of any Linux drivers for
graphics, sound, PCI etc. or will use it's own if none are found.
So all we relly need are Linux drivers for the Mediator. But
considering that Elbox did not help the Linux APUS project for drivers
with the Power Flyer, I won't hold my breath...
Richard Brooklyn.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 8 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
I can't believe how this has gone into a childish slug match... I simply say f#@k it, I aint getting any of those cards now.
And for Amiga Inc to let an amiga partner (eyetech) release such press reports like that? is everyone against everyone else in this market?
The market is so small and fragile and eyetech has to throw fists around, reminds me of a little kid wanting all the attention.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 9 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Richard Brooklyn on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
I agree. The Eyetech statement is just a pack of lies...
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 10 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
I think Eyetech, DCE, ELBOX should only write about their respective products. Wrong informations on other company products is called defamation.
Regards, Christophe Decanini
http://nmo-sdk.sourceforge.net
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 11 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Moore on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
IMHO, my experiences of Eyetech has been very good - they are
genuine about the Amiga. I think they are concerned that people will
be buying the first PCI adaptor that comes out and find that they
can't run the AmigaDE on it and effectively get left behind. The
Mediator may well be out now, but do you really want to gamble on the
drivers or performance just because you can't wait?
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 12 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
>>Elbox would need to pay Amiga to develop such a solution for these SharkPPC cards.
Eyetech also pays them to do it for their cards.<<
Oh really??? Then Amiga needs to add one more line to the bottom of the AmigaDE specs: PAY US AND IT WILL RUN ON YOUR HARDWARE.
But seriously, this is all getting too silly. The specs state that you have to have certain hardware to be compatible. All of these things should be available for any of the mentioned PCI expansions. What *specifically* would make the DE run only on the Eyetech solution??? I hardly think that Amiga is trying to push out *any* hardware company that can produce product for their AmigaDE to run upon. Now, I can understand the idea of "pay a license fee for official approval and promotion of your product", But *not* "pay a license fee or it won't run on your hardware!" That makes no sense.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 13 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anonymous):
Opps...didn't mean to post anonymous.
I do however believe that all companies mentioned (Eyetech, Elbox, and DCE) should work *with* Amiga to get their product officially approved. It will only instill consumer confidence in thier product, and put an end to all of this company bashing. This should be the time for all of us to be excited about new products. Instead, everyone is bashing someone else's product. I'm sure they are all good products, maybe not all equal, but should be close.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 14 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Richard Brooklyn on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
This has probabily been mentioned before BUT:
http://www.elbox.com/Press/Press20001030.html
Now elbox are claiming the Mediator PCI + Shark PPC is better than the
AmigaONE.
Who do we beleave?
P.S.
If this has been mentioned before then I must have missed it and I am
sorry.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 15 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Donovan Reeve on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Tony Gore):
I agree. Let's just be happy that something good is happening.
Besides, I fail to see I fail to see how Eyetech have slammed
Elbox. The Eyetech post looked quit factual to me. I know a
fair amount about how these things work, and in reading the info
that Elbox themeselves have released about the Mediator it would
appear that the things Eyetech said about it are likely to be
valid. And I didn't see anywhere in the Eyetech message any
derogatory comments about Elbox.
From my own experiance, I would believe Eyetech over Elbox
any day. I have had good experiances with Eyetech products and
support, whereas the only Elbox product I own (a zorro bussboard
in an A4000 PowerTower) seems to have burned something out on
both of my A4000 desktop mainboards, rendering the Zorro support
inoperative on both motherboards. This happened when the Tower
was brand new, and the dealer (Software Hut) told me I needed to
go to Power Computing for support, and Power Computing told me
that all problems with the Zorro Buss needed to be refered to
Elbox (who made it) and Elbox never even condecended to reply
to my many pleas for assistance. So now I sit with an unusable
(but brand new) Power Tower and two A4000 desktops which no
longer support zorro cards so all of my zorro-based expansions
are also dead.
At any rate, I am excited by the new AmigaOne boards by Eyetech.
They look like a pleasing, simple to use, and cost-effective
solution for present Amiga AGA machine owners to me, and I intend
to buy one. I only wish I would be able to use my zorro expansions
on it but through no fault of Eyetech I won't be able to.
Oh well, I'll just have to see if I can come up with the money
for some nice PCI expanders for it to do the same jobs.
Anyone want to buy two Amiga graphics cards, two Zorro SCSI
cards, a V-Lab, a Zorro Budda/Catweasle, and a ShapeShifter Mac
emulator card? :)
Donovan Reeve (bubby@inebraska.com)
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 16 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by StormLord on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
Eyetech is right about the situation between PCI boards (I know a lot about hardware designing)
*BUT* If predator or G-REX uses the same pci bridge like Bvision then be sure that this mediator thingy will be faster.
They must use a more expensive bridge than the bvisions one to gain the speed they claim about.
Also I have a question that could clarify these things:
Where this pci bridge is sitting?? on PPC cards or on Bvision/Cybervision cards?
If its on GFX cards then the bus speed problems can be surpressed by a better pci bridge.
If its on PPC cards then the prob will remain and ALL pci implementations that sits on PPC cards will not gain speed much more than 20MB per sec..
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 17 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Homer on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Donovan Reeve):
> whereas the only Elbox product I own (a zorro bussboard
>on an A4000 PowerTower) seems to have burned something out on
>both of my A4000 desktop mainboards, rendering the Zorro support
>inoperative on both motherboardsSo now I sit with an unusable
>(but brand new) Power Tower and two A4000 desktops which no
>longer support zorro cards so all of my zorro-based expansions
>are also dead.
I don't own a PowerTower but know of several people that do and none of them had the problems you describe. I think if I burned out one motherboard I wouldn't have tried the "defective" busboard on another motherboard.
>Anyone want to buy two Amiga graphics cards, two Zorro SCSI
>cards, a V-Lab, a Zorro Budda/Catweasle,
How much $$$ do you want ;)
> and a ShapeShifter Mac emulator card?
You sure about this? ShapeShifter was software only emulation.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 18 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Eagle One):
: I really don't think so...a real 68k accel. is always more reliable
: than a emulation, so is better to have both solutions (emulator and,
: 68k accelerator if the damn thing doesn't run in the emul.)
Do you think Powermacs have problems running 68K Mac software? The
answer is no, 68K emulation is not a problem. Only system software
incompatibilities and the occasional hardware banging prevent some
older software from running. (From what I've heard; personally I
haven't actually found any 68K programs that wouldn't run.) It is
perfectly possible to have 100% reliable CPU emulation, especially
for 68K -> PPC emulation which has been around for years.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 19 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
Just confirms for me one thing: i'm sticking to my A3000 until it really does
die, it does what i want, and as for this whole AmigaOne saga, confused comes
to mind, especially as A3000 owners are sidelined in all of this mess. I
did say that this would leasd to a split in the market if people aren't careful;
and all i see is shit throwing from both sides.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 20 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Roj on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Homer):
Actually, I'm sorry to say that the Elbox 7-slot Zorro expansion board in my Power Tower was also improperly made, but I got lucky. It could've been much worse. Two lines had a glob of solder running between them, but this only caused colors to be improperly displayed on AGA screens. Had it been a short over a +5 line, my board would've blown as well.
Doesn't say much for their quality control, but I wouldn't even think of moving my 4000 back into the desktop case.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 21 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by sutro on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Christophe Decanini):
> I think Eyetech, DCE, ELBOX should only write about their respective
> products. Wrong informations on other company products
> is called defamation.
Strange, the same I think about Elbox ....
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 22 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Eagle One on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (ehaines):
>Do you think Powermacs have problems running 68K Mac software? The
>answer is no, 68K emulation is not a problem. Only system software
>incompatibilities and the occasional hardware banging prevent some
>older software from running. (From what I've heard; personally I
>haven't actually found any 68K programs that wouldn't run.) It is
>perfectly possible to have 100% reliable CPU emulation, especially
>for 68K -> PPC emulation which has been around for years.
Yes I agree, but in the Mac, usually everything is write 100% "system-friendly", so things are easier :)
So, I bet that on the Amiga some old game or demo that you love will fail to run on the 68k emul :)
.
"Just buy a second hand stock A1200 or a very old A500 to run these stuff!" or "forget these shits!" No, I wanna
keep running then, and from the HD and so on (whdload needs FASTRAM for most game fixes, so the stock A1200 or A500 don't fit here :)
.
But seriously, what else reason Elbox has to let your old 68k accelerator together in a full PCI/SharkPPC G3 system? :)
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 23 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 03-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (sutro):
>> I think Eyetech, DCE, ELBOX should only write about their
>> respective products. Wrong informations on other company products
>> is called defamation.
>
>Strange, the same I think about Elbox ....
So I guess that means that "Eyetech, DCE, ELBOX and Elbox" should only
write about their respective products then? No offence man, but I
think you should read before you reply...
Kay
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 24 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by sutro on 04-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
ooops :-)
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 25 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
Without a solution for the A3000T which there are a h*ll of alot
of in Canada and the US, of which I have two myself. Without
this solution I will not be buying anything from anyone, nor
will a great number of other people.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 26 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 04-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (sutro):
Hey, it happens to the best of us...:-)
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 27 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 04-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Anonymous):
Which is precisely why Eyetech ask people who own Amigas other than A1200 / A4000 and who *would* be interested in buying their system to LET THEM KNOW so they can guage demand.
Doh!
If sufficient people contact them, then they'll develop and release. Simple as that.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 28 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 04-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Eagle One):
: Yes I agree, but in the Mac, usually everything is write 100%
: "system-friendly", so things are easier :)
: So, I bet that on the Amiga some old game or demo that you love will
: fail to run on the 68k emul :) .
Those are the same old games and demos that break on things like AGA
machines and any OS version more recent than 1.3. Nothing to do with
68K emulation.
: "Just buy a second hand stock A1200
: or a very old A500 to run these stuff!" or "forget these shits!" No,
: I wanna keep running then, and from the HD and so on (whdload needs
: FASTRAM for most game fixes, so the stock A1200 or A500 don't fit
: here :) .
Whatever games are hacked to work with whdload should work with a 68K
emulator. After all, access to custom chips etc. is still there, so
it's not like UAE where the whole computer has to be emulated. (But
even there, UAE has a fairly high success rate last I heard.)
: But seriously, what else reason Elbox has to let your old
: 68k accelerator together in a full PCI/SharkPPC G3 system? :)
Good question. Marketing? If/when these things actually get released
we'll see how compatible they are...until then it's just speculation.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 29 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Henrik Nordhus on 04-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
About the AmigaDE compatibility thing :
I believe it would be theoretically possible to run it on an existing
APUS installation, although it'd be seriously crippled as current PPC
amigas don't match up to the specs of the AmigaOne.
AmigaDE could probably run hosted on APUS if APUS support for
Mediator, Predator, G-Rex, Shark etc.etc. appears.
It seems though that Eyetech are building the best things for running
AmigaDE natively.......
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 30 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Paul McCord on 04-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
This is a pet subject of mine, being a Mediator owner and all..... However, as I have said before all this unnecessary squabbling between Elbox and Eyetech is ridiculous. I have bought products from both companies, but in the case of Elbox I have not received answers to emails that I have sent so I guess they have work to do on the customer relations side of things. However, they have been sniping at each other like a couple of schoolchildren and frankly it is nauseating.
I am glad to have got that off my chest.
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 31 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Eagle One on 04-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (ehaines):
: Yes I agree, but in the Mac, usually everything is write 100%
: "system-friendly", so things are easier :)
: So, I bet that on the Amiga some old game or demo that you love will
: fail to run on the 68k emul :)
.
>Those are the same old games and demos that break on things like AGA
>machines and any OS version more recent than 1.3. Nothing to do with
>68K emulation.
.
No, I can run these things in my A1200/060 with some help from degraders, TUDE, Relokick 1.3 and so on :)
My point is that these solutions are way too "hacky" to work frawlessly in an emul.
.
>emulator. After all, access to custom chips etc. is still there, so
>it's not like UAE where the whole computer has to be emulated. (But
>even there, UAE has a fairly high success rate last I heard.)
.
I have UAE in my x86 box, it works 'ok' most of the time, but strangely it seems to
like most the usual adf game booting in Rom1.3 mode, than hacked whdload games booting
in full Rom3.1/HD/OS3.1/AGA/gfx card mode...I'm not saying that it don't run the stuff,
it does a fairly decent job, but there's always some glitches here and there: missing song in stage n,
corrupted background in end level, and so on...:-\
.
That's why I always prefer the "real thing", even with some hacks to ensure compatibility :)
.
: But seriously, what else reason Elbox has to let your old
: 68k accelerator together in a full PCI/SharkPPC G3 system? :)
.
>Good question. Marketing? If/when these things actually get released
>we'll see how compatible they are...until then it's just speculation.
.
Erm...I think they're giving more options to the customer... like the supposed "dual working" of both
the G3 in SharkPPC and the 68k in your old accelerator (I've seen Elbox commenting this in theis latest
press release - correct if I'm wrong :)
Huge speculations aside, of course they should keep the old accelerator in the pass-thru or else the
current Mediator users will have 4 nice PCI slots in a not-so-nice 020/2mb ChipRAM config :)
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 32 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by MagicSN on 05-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Eagle One):
Hi!
As long as they run on a real 040, even hardware-hacking Demos and games
run on the H&P 68k Emulation. This is tested and confirmed. Of course
not all old games and demos have been tested :) ... but a lot of them.
Of course stuff which does not run on a real 040, does not run on an emulated
one either. But most likely stuff which does not run on a real 040 does not
run on your current Amiga either.
Steffen
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 33 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by victor # on 05-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
Is this true that Vesalia has problems with the Mediator (it doesn't work with the Blizzards)?
Eyetech clarify similarities and differences... : Comment 34 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 06-Nov-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Eagle One):
:>Those are the same old games and demos that break on things like AGA
:>machines and any OS version more recent than 1.3. Nothing to do with
:>68K emulation.
.
:No, I can run these things in my A1200/060 with some help from
:degraders, TUDE, Relokick 1.3 and so on :)
:My point is that these solutions are way too "hacky" to work frawlessly in
:an emul.
How do you know that? If you can emulate a 68K 100% on PPC (and there's
no technical reason why you can't), then even the "hacks" will be
emulated, so the game/demo will work fine. Remember, we're not talking
about emulating the entire Amiga, just the CPU. Any hacking involving the
custom chips is entirely unaffected.
:I have UAE in my x86 box, it works 'ok' most of the time,
[snip]
:but there's always some glitches here and there: missing song in stage n,
:corrupted background in end level, and so on...:-\
Do you think that's due to non-perfect emulation of the Amiga system,
or faulty 68K emulation? I would say the former; the 68K series is
very well documented and understood. There are lots of 68K emulators...
MAME, Genesis, SNES, Macs, etc.
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