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[News] AmiTCP/IP statusANN.lu
Posted on 09-Dec-2000 11:15 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselš17 comments
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Toni Ollila of NSDi has issued this statement about the legal status of the AmiTCP/IP stack that is supposed to be included in OS3.9.

AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 1 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Ben on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
All the points made are completely valid.
But... If past history of AmiTCP is anything to go by as you clearly mention then surely you werent expecting to make any more money from it?
Surely if you can negotiate something reasonable with H&P then everyone will be happy?
In the current Amiga climate getting a little money is better than none at all?!
Plus I think people will appreciate your efforts in making OS3.9 happen!
Hope everything works out!
;)
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 2 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
It's hardly surprising that H&P haven't settled with you. Assuming they make a 25% proffit on each 3.9 CD they sell (which I doubt), they'll have to sell 1200 units just to pay you off. Try asking for 50 cents on each unit sold.
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 3 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Stephen Illingworth on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Can somebody give post a link that describes the licences that AmiTCP is
covered by.
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 4 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Tomi Ollila on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Stephen Illingworth):
AmiTCP/IP has code from BSD networking code, and that information
is available in NSDi provided AmiTCP/IP releases.
All the rest code is written by NSDi programmers.
Up to AmiTCP/IP 3 b2 AmiTCP/IP was licensed under GPL.
Since all the GPL'd code was written by NSDi programmers,
thus being copyright holders of that GPL'd code, The license
change for newer versions was possible. Anyone is still free
to take the GPL'd AmiTCP/IP 3.0 b2 (or earlyer) and develop
based on that. Of course the end software must still be released
under GPL -license.
Tomi Ollila
NSDi - Network Solutions Development, Inc.
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 5 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Stephen Illingworth on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Tomi Ollila):
> AmiTCP/IP has code from BSD networking code, and that information
> is available in NSDi provided AmiTCP/IP releases.
> All the rest code is written by NSDi programmers.
> Up to AmiTCP/IP 3 b2 AmiTCP/IP was licensed under GPL.
> Since all the GPL'd code was written by NSDi programmers,
> thus being copyright holders of that GPL'd code, The license
> change for newer versions was possible. Anyone is still free
> to take the GPL'd AmiTCP/IP 3.0 b2 (or earlyer) and develop
> based on that. Of course the end software must still be released
> under GPL -license.
I understand now. I was studying the COPYRIGHT notice from the AmiTCP 3.0
archive (as that's the version I use on some machines) and was puzzling
over the GPL licence and why you are taking the course of action you have
chosen. It never occured to me that the licence would have been changed
for future versions.
Thanks for clearing that up.
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 6 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Kojak on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
That's very thoughtfull of you, Tomi Ollila, not to forbid sales of AmigaOS 3.9 at WOA. I hope you will get the amount of money you deserve :)...
By the way, Teemu, it's ToMi not ToNi (check the news posting) :)...
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 7 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Teemu I. Yliselš on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Kojak):
> By the way, Teemu, it's ToMi not ToNi (check the news posting) :)...
Yeah, sorry, I realize that now. It's particularly embarrassing to misspell the name of a countryman. *blush* :)
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 8 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Darrin):
5% profit is more likely.
Of course it is not a fixed amount - the profit goes up with the
sales, the second ten thousand copies are more profitable than the
first ten thousand.
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 9 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Don Cox):
That makes the demand for EURO14,000 even more unrealistic. Either these people are living in a dream world or they don't want 3.9 released at all. Is this an attempt to undermine the official Amiga upgrade in favour of MorphOS?
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 10 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Darrin):
/*That makes the demand for EURO14,000 even more unrealistic. Either these
people are living in a dream world or they don't want 3.9 released at all.
Is this an attempt to undermine the official Amiga upgrade in favour of MorphOS?*/
<BR>
Regardless of your conspiracy theories, the owner of a product is free to ask
for as much as they want. If, at the end of negociations, H&P thinks the price is
too high, they shouldn't include AmiTCP. It is that simple!
I'm also very tired about this talk about everyone keeping together in a happy family.
Even though the amiga market is small, there are many different interests and
opinions. It is naive to believe that everyone should cooperate.
What I find disturbing indeed, is when the law is disrespected. On a small market
in an international context, enforcement is not always obvious.
<BR>
Friendly,
Nicholai
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 11 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Lightning on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
huh - i'd still rather be using Miami
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 12 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Nicholai Benalal):
What really makes me angry is that H&P have not included any support for the VIC-20 and C64 in OS3.9 - what about the people who want to play "Attack of the Blue Meanies" and "Revenge of the Mutant Camels"!!! Wibble.
:)
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 13 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Warren Katchmar on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Nicholai Benalal):
"Regardless of your conspiracy theories, the owner of a product is free to ask
for as much as they want. If, at the end of negociations, H&P thinks the price is
too high, they shouldn't include AmiTCP. It is that simple!"
Yes, I agree. If there is a dispute about the rights to this and this guy ends up
having the right, then H&P can just drop Genesis. This is not the only TCP out there.
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 14 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by michael jantzen on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Darrin):
Well if Amiga DOS 3.9 is using unlicensed software it shouldn't be released...
Michael Jantzen ^_^
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 15 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (michael jantzen):
Hi!
Well, at the time the CDs were pressed, this whole
issue was not brought up yet. And the author of
Genesis convinced H&P that he has the right to
sublicense to H&P. In my understanding *normally*
any legal problems needed to be discussed with him,
then.
Of course H&P is very interested in clearing up the
situation and it is only in their own interest to
clear this up as soon as possible. EUR 15000 is IMHO
a much too high price, but in the recent announcement
the AmiTCP author said that he forwarded a new offer
to H&P, so that the situation can hopefully be solved
soon. He also said that he does not do anything against
OS 3.9 sales, and that he is interested in the situation
to be solved in a positive way for both parties
(him and H&P). H&P'll of course be interested in
using AmiTCP for future OS versions (if they ever
happen...).
I think the only reason why this whole issue came
out such big was that the timing was very bad...
the AmiTCP author heard of the Genesis inclusion
only after the OS3.9 CDs were already pressed, and
so he informed H&P about the problem too late (but
as he did not hear of it before, it was not his
fault, but neither was it H&Ps fault, it was IMHO
a problem in communication).
Steffen
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 16 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Steffen Haeuser):
You aren't expecting to sell many copies of OS3.9 are you?
15,000 euros is about £10,000. Not a small amount, but this guy was getting money for his product recently - not a lot, but still getting money.
If you expected to sell 10,000 copies of OS3.9, that would come out at £1 per copy. Amiga Inc said that if 50,000 copies of OS3.9 were sold that would make OS4.0 viable. That is 20p per copy of OS3.9 for the fully operational TCP/IP stack. If you expected to sell 20,000+ copies then you wouldn't be complaining about 15,000 euros. The fact you are indicates that you expect to sell considerably less - I would expect that you are expecting to sell 5,000 to 10,000 copies.
I suggest you get back to the guy and make him a reasonable offer like 40p per copy of OS3.9 sold if sales are over 20,000. 50p per copy is sales are only above 10,000. Otherwise offer 60p a copy. A sliding scale is not out of the question for a situation like this - outright rights to use the software should be expensive - I think that 15,000 euros isn't a bad price for software that would take that amount at least to develop on your own. 10,000 euros is an excellent deal. Source code rights should cost you extra.
Balancing the needs of the OS (value for money, and it really should have a TCP/IP stack integrated these days) vs. that of the author of the 3rd party software who are selling it for money isn't easy. Especially when a muddle like this has happened. If the guy was evil, he would be in his right to demand £100,000 or so to for you to license the software, and you would have to pay up or recall all Amiga OS3.9s sold so far (better than the police coming around). Luckily, the guy isn't evil :-)
AmiTCP/IP status : Comment 17 of 17ANN.lu
Posted by Kelli Halliburton on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Nicholai Benalal):
> Even though the amiga market is small, there are many different interests and
> opinions. It is naive to believe that everyone should cooperate.
Yes, by all means, let's all pursue our own petty, selfish ends, and in the conflict that will inevitably arise, we can simply say good-bye to AmigaOS. ELBOX v. Eyetech, DCE v. H&P.... Everybody wants to do their own thing. And all it's going to wind up doing is creating a situation where there are 20 different, incompatible 'evolutions' of Classic Amiga, none of which will sell enough to keep the respective companies solvent.
Heaven forbid we should cooperate and all join forces to *help* the people currently entrusted with development of "official" upgrades for Classic Amiga, so that maybe we can squeeze just a little bit more life out of our (admittedly antiquated) hardware.
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