| Posted on 09-Dec-2000 16:57 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä | 184 comments
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In an IRC conference (that was cut short by an attack from script kiddies...) today, Fleecy Moss stated that there's already 1.5 million orders placed for the Amiga DE. OS3.9 needs to sell 50000 copies in order to justify the development of a classic OS4. Earlier there was also a chat with an Elbox representative who, amongst other things, announced support for the AmigaDE running on the forthcoming SharkPPC boards. Amiga.org have the log from that.
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 101 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 97 (Anonymous):
Why don't YOU, who apparently think you speak for all of us, sign your comment with your name, so we can see who you are, eh?
-
Sorry for feeding the troll, I couldn't resist this one.
-
Kay - an Amigan who supports Bill and Fleecy |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 102 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Syzygy on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 97 (Anonymous):
Well said that man.
Fleecy, if you do visit some IRC channels to find out if that statement holds true, remember amiganet.org isn't the only place Amiga users go for IRC...
Peace,
Syzygy. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 103 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ralph on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 11 (Don Cox):
"Somebody pointed out that the code for the ROM is written on several
different C compilers and several assemblers. It will need a lot of
tidying..."
That's history! Juergen Haage himself pointed out that this cleanup
is already done (in some german Amiga printmag some months ago). H&P
is therefore able to compile the whole OS in one run on one compiler.
The things left to do are some necessary corrections and adaptions for
the new hardware environment. Can't estimate that one, though...
btw: This answer came as response to the question about the necessary
amount of time and work still left for a port to PPC... |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 104 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | Fleecy
Can you please give MorphOS team a AmigaOS license ?...So that MorphOS can be called OS4.0 PPC...Popular stuff like MUI is already ported to MorphOS and list is growing...And Haage Partner guys can code a WarpUP compatability layer for MorphOS....(maybe MorphOS Team has such a WarpUP layer..who knows..)
BPlan, Elbox and Eyetech are preparing PPC only motherboards for Amiga community...Sorry but these boards need a PPC OS in Q2 2001...MorphOS is there and waiting...All we need a WarpUP layer for it from H&P...
With MorphOS Release3's external module support..AmigaOS3.9 can be used with MorphOS too...So no problems for the people who have bought/will buy OS3.9
Thanks |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 105 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by szutoman on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | Firstly, I would like to take my hat off to Fleecy for being very professional when responding to the, you know, the ones that Bitch and complain about everything that Amiga Inc. is doing and trying to do, but yet, its not enough, and I hate your business plan and am buying a Win doze Machine because I cannot find useful software for My Amiga. I however will not be so nice(-:
I will say this to those who are complaining, PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Look in the mirror and look at yourselves closely and ask yourselves “What have I done lately to contribute to the forward momentum of the classic Amiga Hardware and Software Markets”? For those of you who are bitching, that’s about all you have done; moreover, you are contributing to your own self-fulling prophecy of doom for the Amiga. Congratulations on your optimistic and undying support for the Amiga and its philosophies. You all should break an arm and pat yourselves on the back!!
Economics 101: Consumers will vote with there dollars. If you choose not to vote, then good day mate and go buy your Windose Machine and have a good life.
I have purchased 3 Windose machines for work that I cannot do on my Amiga. I use them for school and many other things, but My Amiga is still the king, for me at least, for Video Editing. I will also be purchasing the Repulse soundboard for my configuration so I can use the best Freaking Audio Software on the Amiga, and that would be, ProStationAudio from Audiolabs. Then who gives a rat’s ass about cheap sound cards for the pc and such, I have ProStationAudio now and Intel users don’t.
You complainers just really amaze me!!! |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 106 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 105 (szutoman):
>Economics 101: Consumers will vote with there dollars. If you choose not to >vote, then good day mate and go buy your Windose Machine and have a good life.
This is a little back-to-front. A consumer won't buy something they don't want in the hope that the same company will bring out what do they want later on!!!! That's not economics. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 107 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by szutowicz on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 106 (Anonymous):
Perhaps where you are from it is not, but from my point of view it is.
Consumers are the ones who cast votes by dollars, it shows whethter or not a product is to stay around or die. If the Amiga community, or should I say the people who do not like the OS3.9, feel it is a waste and choose not to purchase it, then fine. You have voted with your dollars. It is that simple. If your politics get in the way of this very simple economic concept, then the products future growth is at risk and will die.
I support Amiga Inc and the way in which thaey are seeing if the Amiga community really is up to the task of deciding there own fate. For all the pestimistic and discruntled developers and users who do not like the way in which they are letting us all choose the fate of the Amiga OS 3.9 and 4.0, by blasting everything they do you are shooting yourselves in the back and risk persuading others NOT to buy, thus, you have not only jepordized the sales of OS3.9 and the possibility of a power ppc os, but you may have killed any potential sales for your own applications you have written. It is a sad truth but true.
Keep shooting yourselves in the foot guys, you will have only yourselves to blame. Its your dollars, go vote. Its that simple. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 108 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Troels Ersking on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 97 (Anonymous):
Please don't think you speak for all Amiga users as I (am just one who) don't agree with you.
Troels Ersking |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 109 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by szutowicz on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | | Ps, hanging chads and dippled dollars do not count!!!! |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 110 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by szutowicz on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | | PS, my opions may not be that of many Amiga users in the community, so please do not be offended if you do not like what I have to say, this a disscusion room, right? |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 111 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by RexxMast on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 46 (fleecy):
Fleecy,
I'm very confused as are many others. I think this question needs to
be answered.
First off, you seem to be threatening to sue the developers of MorphOS
with your statement,
>"To correct some of the rubbish flying around here from all the experts.
>1. Members of the MorphOS team have seen the Amiga source code. That is all
that is required to allow for a full source review, done by technical laywers,
costing quite a few million dollars and taking months, perhaps running into
years."
However two posts down from this one you state,
>We see a lot of value in the remaining Amiga developers, and in the work that
we saw, including a very good demonstration by the MorphOS team, and by the
H&P team.
These seemingly conflicting statements need to be addressed. It seems that
on the one hand you have make an argument for suing the MorphOS team, and
two posts down you are patting them on the back!
What is the story here?/
More people than me would certainly like to know the answer.
regards,
RexxMast |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 112 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ralf Schwate on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | Time for me to add some thoughts.
First of all to Fleecy, thank you for participating in this discussion.
I find the discussion in this forum quite interesting. Almost everyone
wants a PPC OS and is assuming that there is a huge demand for it compared
to any sales which OS 3.9 might generate. I read that Phase 5 sold 15000
PPC cards, and as far as I know there are no other PPC boards for our Amigas
(I ordered a DCE BlizzardPPC board a couple of months ago, so far nothing,
I have sitting a useless Wipeout 2097 in my shelf). 15000 is about the same
amount of the copies 3.5 sold. And 3.5 was not a success commercially. So
just saying 'I want OS4.0' doesn't make OS4.0 a business case (as Fleecy
put it). Hey, 'I want a 1.5GHz PPC Amiga Laptop', so why is Motorola not
producing a 1.5GHz PPC? They have to know, that there is demand for it!
I had also the hope, that Amiga might make the OS open source, but I don't
see that happen. And licensing it to MorphOS sounds nice, but I doubt that
the MorphOS team could spent money for that. They might sell maybe 2-5000 or
so copies of MorphOS (without WarpOS compatibility and running only on
Phase 5 boards and maybe the BPlan vaporware certainly not much more).
To the idea of preselling OS4.0. Is there anyone who really believes,
that there might be enough people to pay money up-front for vaporware
again (which it is until released, and let's be blunt, Amiga as a
company has the same risk as Phase 5 of going bankrupt)? And preselling
without a financial committment has no value at all.
But, if anyone wants, he can view buying OS3.9 as a prepayment to an
OS4.0. BUT you will get something in return! (Even if it might be only
a shareware collection in your eyes.)
Anyway, this is the first time that I see an OS4.0 as a possibility, even
if it is very remote, since the 50000 numbers seems impossible to reach. I
only hope that it's not just a hoax by Amiga to sell more copies of OS3.9
to generate some cash-flow (I heard about the guys buying more than one
copy in order to make OS4.0 see the light).
Please Fleecy:
Can you set up a counter on your web-site or allow H&P to set one up on
the number of copies sold?
Regards
Ralf
(one of the first 1000 Amiga owners in Europe back in 1986 and owner
of (one) OS3.9) |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 113 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ian on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 103 (Ralph):
> H&P is therefore able to compile the whole OS in one run on one compiler.
> The things left to do are some necessary corrections and adaptions for
> the new hardware environment.
I doubt H&P went to the trouble of converting all the assembly-language modules in the source to C, or even thought about "cleaning up" any modules for libraries they haven't modified. (Layers, Exec, audio, timer, etc etc). In addition there are a number of fundamental system structures which, by accident or design, rely on the big-endian system of the 68K, which will break on a little-endian PPC.
For those who say "rewrite the basic modules anyway" then that's exactly what MorphOS has tried to do, for those who don't like that, well, that's some of the extra work needed.
Personally, I think we'd be better off with a new OS which has *fast* 68K emulation built in to transparently run old stuff at ~060 speeds. I don't want to lose the "Classic" OS either, I really don't, (cynically, I expect the new system will look and feel like Windoze :-/ ) but what other choice is there? Anyone who thinks they can compile a PPC ClassicAOS with no hassle should ask Fleecy for the source... |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 114 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 107 (szutowicz):
>If your politics get in the way of this very simple economic concept, then the >products future growth is at risk and will die.
You have it wrong. Why should I be blackmailed into buying something I don't want, to ensure a small chance of something I do want coming along? I am astonished by this attitude!! It's outrageous and I've not seen anything so ridiculous in the commerical world in my life!! They are pushing loyalties too far. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 115 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Al K on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 106 (Anonymous):
WinDO$-Users do, just like the lemmings, only its getting worse anytime ;-)
And do not tell me that that os'es users are not 'average consumers', aren't they?
Cool down everyone. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 116 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 82 (D1):
"Keith Blakemore-Noble"
No need to be so formal, D. "Keith" will do...
"it is people like you that don't support the amiga!"
Ah, right. Glad you`ve managed to clarify that.
Only problem is, you don't have a clue who I am or what I do or don't do to support the Amiga - but don't let trivial things like facts upset your flaming, eh?
I suppose I had better get rid of my 4 Amigas now, right? I mean, I don't support the Amiga, right? That'll mean I can demand a refund for my purchases on OS2.1, OS3.1, OS3.5, AmigaDE SDK etc, right?
I suppose I had better take down the BuiltWithAmiga website too, eh? I mean, it`s only been there for 3.5 years (yeah, I need to update it, I'm working on that), but that doesn't count as support either, of course, right?
Anyway, let's see what other pearls of wisdom you have for us...
"The "AMIGA" has obviously given you some grief rather then some joy? "
Nope, my 4 Amigas are all doing fine, thanks, and have been so doing for the past 12 years. AInc, otoh, is a different matter...
"Is it really that hard for you to make a small investment?"
Nope, which would be why I have spent money where appropriate.
What IS "that hard" for me is to be expected to buy things I don't want, on teh offchance that Fleecy and Bill *might* decide to let H&P continue their work. Sorry, but just as AInc kpt saying early on that they are not a charity, neither am I. If they produce what I want, I'll be more than happy to buy it.
However, pulling the same old blackmail stunt with OS3.9 as waspulled with OS3.5 won't work on me, I'm afraid. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 117 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 86 (fleecy):
"And that's the key sentence isn't it Keith "Look, you guys at AInc *KNOW* we want a PPC AmigaOS" - How many is WE, Keith? You tell me what the number is?
Then back it up! Then show the business case for it, not the "I'll scream and scream and scream until I'm sick" case. Sounds hard, doesn't it? Well business
is hard. Go ask Hyperion, Titan, Epic, H&P. "
Yes, let's ask H&P.
Let's ask them why they have not continued their development of AmigaOS-PPC which they started under GatesWay.
Oh look! Their answer? AInc are refusing to grant them permission to develop it!!
That, Fleecy, speaks volumes - on the one hand you claim to want to develop a PPC AmigaOS. On the other, you refuse to let H&P continue their development, and you ALSO threaten to sue MorphOS (for doing what you are not willing to do - develop an Amiga-compatible PPS OS).
"We will do it [PPC port] for 50,000 people, because that is market that can form the beginnings of a new life."
Fleecy, that's all very good, but for one tiny flaw in your logic.
Requiring 50,000 sales of OS3.9 does NOT indicate how many people would buy a PPC AmigaOS, because there is nothing in OS3.9 to entice such people. You are drawing false conclusions from irrelevant data.
"H&P sent a document to Gateway offering to do it [PPC AmigaOS] but as far as I know, it went straight in the bin, so get your facts straight. "
Uh-hu.
Fleecy, I suggest you talk to H&P then.
Because H&P have said for quite a while now that GatesWay GAVE them permission to start developing a PPC port, and H&P started that port.
H&P then go on to tell us that YOU (AInc, not you personally) stopped H&P and refuse to give them permission to continue their development...
What were you saying about "get your facts straight", Fleecy?
>Sorry, Fleecy, but it is increasingly obvious you lot do NOT want to sell us a >PPC OS, and you will resort ot any lies and marketing bull to persuade us it >is OUR fault simply because we do not buy irrelevant stuff we've already told >you we do not need.
"and you can't even be bothered to buy an AmigaOS upgrade, then why should we even listen to you."
So let's see. I am supposed to buy everything you guys sell, no matter how irrelevant it is to me, and if I don't then I am not a True Amigan and obviously my views (as an Amiga user / owner for 12 years) are irrelevant, right?
As I look around my room (tonight...), I can see 4 Amigas, all mine, with LEGAL copies of OS2.1, OS3.1, OS3.5 and the AmigaDE SDK.
Who "can`t be bothered to buy an AmigaOS upgrade", eh?
OS3.9 offers me nothing as an upgrade! I already have OS3.5. I already have turboprint. I already have MiamiDX. I already have AWeb (and have done since virtually day 1). I have yet to see ANYTHING in OS3.9 that I need which I don't already have. therefore, there is no point in me buyijg it. HOWERVER, if you were offering me AmigaOS PPC, then I'd be there buyting it before you had a chance to utter "for sale".
I'm far from the only one in that position.
So, to sum up, sales of OS3.9 will tell you nothing about demand for a PPC AmigaOS; H&P want to develop such a beast and AInc are refusing to let them; AInc are talking about suing the other developers of an Amiga-compatible PPC OS (MorphOS).
And all this is supposed to convince me that you want to develop an AmigaPPC OS?! |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 118 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mousky on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 114 (Anonymous):
> You have it wrong. Why should I be blackmailed into buying something I don't want,
> to ensure a small chance of something I do want coming along? I am astonished by
> this attitude!! It's outrageous and I've not seen anything so ridiculous in the
> commerical world in my life!! They are pushing loyalties too far.
This was the same strategy used by Softwood in attempt to increase sales of the last version of Final Writer. Their plea was that if you want to see future support and upgrades of Final Writer, the Amiga community should have to purchase the upgrade. Two things have always bothered me about these types of statements. First, words are words, and no explicit gurantee nor committment was made to provide future support and upgrades - it was never an "official" statement.
Second, whenever a developer made a plea it was a plea to the Amiga "community" not the Amiga "market". This was an obvious attempt to reach deep down inside the Amiga fanatic's sense of duty, sense of pride, sense of loyalty to the Amiga platform. In other words, "if you really call yourself an 'Amiga' user, you will buy this product or upgrade to show your 'support' of the Amiga platform, of the Amiga community."
Most companies that employ the "blackmail" strategy are either long gone or have changed their focus on other markets, or is that communities ;) |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 119 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mousky on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 115 (Al K):
> WinDO$-Users do, just like the lemmings, only its getting worse anytime ;-)
How different are Amiga users who pre-ordered OS3.9 with very little information from your so-called Windows lemmings? |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 120 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Amifan on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | Hey, did I already participate in this discussion??
Well time for some wise words again.
What do you complainers really think you can achive with all this discussion?
Fleecy did make things clear or..?
So buy 3.9!!!!!!!!
I did!
So at least I can say that it wasn't for me if AmigaOSPPC won't be reality.
In other words.
praatjes vullen geen gaatjes...ahem...
Saying how "worthless" AmigaOS3.9 is won't make AmigaOS4PPC a reality, buying 3.9 is the ONLY option. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 121 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Amifan on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | And to place a useless (?) comment.
A clean AmigaOS3.9 feels really faster then my previous OS3.5 setup.
Picassospeed proves that.
CON output doubled!?
other benchmarks are about 10% higher......
Browsing feels faster with OS3.9 (because of the PPC picture DT?)
Amidock is a great invention, no really believe me it's great!!
ACTION: OK it's 68k only, but I can't see any difference in speed with the PPC version of Moovid Pro 2.
AWEBII3.4se: nice javascript.
Maybe it's not much features on the box, but it's feels like a huge improvement over 3.5 and and really over 3.1.
It's stable and the rescuedisc works great too.
I say "feel", because I have no banchmarks apart from Picassospeed |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 122 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by fleecy on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 106 (Anonymous):
Do you understand economics?
If we were going to be purely economic, the sales of OS3.5
stunk, so we would not even have bothered with OS3.9
or any other AmigaOS release, and would have cancelled the
entire thing.
We decided to give the community the chance to decide. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 123 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by fleecy on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 111 (RexxMast):
Simple.
We are very impressed with what the MorphOS team have done and would
be keen to bring them into the move that we want to make to OS4. However,
we will not allow anyone to split the community. If AmigaOS is going to
move forwards then it needs the entire community, and that means everyone
together moving forwards, not more splinter groups and factions than
the Life of Brian ampitheatre. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 124 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by fleecy on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 112 (Ralf Schwate):
Absolutely. Bill has already committed to that,
and we will put the numbers up on the OS3.9 site.
I will see that it is done in the next few weeks. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 125 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Syzygy on 11-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 117 (Keith Blakemore-Noble):
Thank you Keith, amongst all the posts here that seem to be driven by
emotion alone, yours was very logical and I support everything you
say.
You are playing catchup though, I own 7 Amigas! :-)
Peace,
Syzygy. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 126 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 86 (fleecy):
"and get ride [sic] of the stupid 'classic' name, which Schindler invented so it could be killed off".
Fleecy, Fleecy, Fleecy. You REALLY ought to check what your own company is doing, you know!
I have here in front of me the manual from my copy of the Amiga SDK, second edition, May 2000.
On page 2 of the manual alone, it refers to "Classic" or "Classic Amiga" no less than 4 times.
The "Classic Amiga" is referred to in those exact terms on no less than *35* seperate pages in the SDK manual.
So, Fleecy, far from bitching to me about "getting rid of the stupid Classic name", perhaps you ought to have a word with your own AInc, who refer to the Classic Amiga in their official documentation...
Get your own house in order before you bitch about others using AInc's official terminology! |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 127 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 125 (Syzygy):
*7* Amigas?!
Darn, I've a fair way to go then!
Still, I'll see your 7 Amigas and raise you 4 Amigas, 3 Suns, a PC, a Spectrum and an IBM RS6000 <g> |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 128 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by phil on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 122 (fleecy):
Fleecy,
I was very happy when you have produced the os3.5, so i will thx
you to give hope again in the community. But you create desire
again (an osppc), so it is normal that people want these hard...
For my part, i have an os3.5 with dopus magellan II. I don't need
your new OS, but i will surely BUY your osppc. I think a lot of people
are in my case. JUST MEET EXPECTATION, don't test with small things.
You have used energy in a product, in my point of view, where you will
never reach the 50.000.
So, I'm not buying your OS 3.9 but i'm ready to prepaid the 4.
Thx for what you have done these year for our beloved computer,
hope that it will continue..... :))
phil |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 129 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by David Shipman on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 105 (szutoman):
> soundboard for my configuration so I can use the best Freaking Audio Software > on the Amiga, and that would be, ProStationAudio from Audiolabs. Then who > gives a rat’s ass about cheap sound cards for the pc and such, I have > ProStationAudio now and Intel users don’t.
Prostation is no doubt excellent software, but I really don't think its anything to jeer about, especially when the "Intel users" who don't have it can download Protools for free!
Oh, and by the way, you're right, who cares about cheap sound cards? How about _good_ sound cards? |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 130 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mousky on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 122 (fleecy):
Fleecy wrote:
> If we were going to be purely economic, the sales of OS3.5
> stunk, so we would not even have bothered with OS3.9
> or any other AmigaOS release, and would have cancelled the
> entire thing.
One may take your statement to mean that Amiga Inc is making bad decisions. Perhaps Amiga Inc should not have bothered with OS3.9, and should concentrate more on AmigaDE. I have always argued that it is time to move forward. How long can Amiga Inc continue to devote limited resources to a platform (the "classic" Amiga) that is at or nearing the end of its life cycle? And before everyone flames me, I did NOT say that the current Amiga platform is useles. Heck I use my A2000 each and everyday. The platform has simply matured.
> We decided to give the community the chance to decide.
Fleecy, while I appreciate Amiga Inc's effort to-date, I am rather dissapointed that you would resort to using such a cliche. How wonderful of Amiga Inc to provide the "community" with an opportunity to decide the fate of OS4.0. Back to reality, in the end, the final decision to begin work on OS4.0 rests with Amiga Inc, not the so-called "community" (whoever they are). |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 131 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | | Keith: I think you're absolutely right. Unforunately, it's pointless continuing to debate with Amiga Inc because they clearly prefer to churn out the same old rubbish rather than listening to any of our valid points. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 132 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 123 (fleecy):
>However,
>we will not allow anyone to split the community.
What do you mean by this? How exactly do you plan to stop teams like MorphOS and AROS? Don't you understand that these systems have such a following not by accident, but because they have rejected Amiga Inc and it's plans because they don't like them.
Having stopped those 2 projects, the affected users will simply move over to Linux... |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 133 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Björn Hagström on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 132 (Anonymous):
"the affected users will simply move over to Linux..."
To be realistic, That wouldn't make any difference at all. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 134 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 132 (Anonymous):
Actually, I agree with Fleecy on this point too... The Amiga needs *one* standard kernel and OS. The WarpUp-PowerUp split was bad enough. WarpUp won the war in the end, but there is no doubt that for the duration of it, the market and developers suffered. MorphOS is a great concept, but even now, using it means moving away from WarpUp, which has *finally* gained some foothold. If an AmigaOS4.0PPC should happen, MorphOS should not exist. Amiga might do well getting a deal with the MorphOS authors, but there should be only one kernal and one OS existing for the classic Amiga.
-
Kay |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 135 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Björn Hagström on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 132 (Anonymous):
"the affected users will simply move over to Linux..."
To be realistic, That wouldn't make any difference at all. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 136 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Emmanuel Lesueur on 12-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 134 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
> WarpUp won the war in the end
Really? How come people are still using PowerUp then?
And no, I'm not telling that PowerUp won. There are _no_ figures telling
which kernel is the most used. And anyway, the existence of MorphOS will
probably have an effect on this. Most people probably don't care if
the kernel is named WarpOS or PowerUp, they care about software. And
MorphOS has brought in the last few months much more native software
than WarpOS has.
> MorphOS is a great concept, but even now, using it means moving away
> from WarpUp, which has *finally* gained some foothold.
In what way? Please don't answer "it's official": nobody cares what is
official except for advocacy purposes. One would have cared if it had
made support for the other kernel magically stop, but this has not
happened.
> If an AmigaOS4.0PPC should happen, MorphOS should not exist.
Nobody asks you to use it. Just let people choose for themselves.
Between a product that exists *now* and one that probably never will
(50000 sales of 3.9, remember?), the choice is easy, IMHO. |
|
| WOA2000 news : Comment 137 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 136 (Emmanuel Lesueur):
Ok, I will elaborate and explain my opinion, as well as adress your points:
*WarpUp winning the war and gaining foothold:
I think it is surprising that you doubt WarpUp gaining foothold. Most PPC software released today is for WarpUp, as far as I can see. This is especially true for games, much thanks to Warp3d. And the fact that WarpUp is included in AmigaOS is NOT irrellevant, whatever you may think. Amiga users need ONE kernel. Nobody wants to have to reboot between using different pieces of software. Amiga developers need ONE kernel to develop for. Amiga have cast their vote. The developers are apparently following their lead, as is, I think, most users. Why can't we just let WarpUp win then, eh? Why do we need to create a split again?
*MorphOS having more "native" software:
Well, here's the deal. If I leave WarpUp in favour of MorphOS, I will have to drop all existing WarpUp software I'm using. What will I get in return then? PowerUp compatability? I can already get that by installing the ppc.library emulator. MorphOS native software? Let me see...YAM is running quite fast enough on my 060. MUI is fast enough as well. CGX5? Would be nice but not really essential. Hardware is an issue too... I have just got PCI slots and Voodoo3 for my Amiga. Next year I'll get a G4... So let's see, what is the alternative... My old BlizzardPPC which I've had to start pumping power directly into because it's connectors can't carry a stable currency anymore? Perhaps I'll plug a PCI interface into it when it is released? And then install another accellerator into that again? I don't think so...I don't want to blow a fuse everytime I start my computer... I am quite happy with the neater and cheaper Mediator+Shark alternative. Which is probably NOT going to be supported by MorphOS.
*The choice being simple:
The choice is NOT simple. If the choice was simple, everybody would be using MorphOS right now, and Hyperion would be developing games for nobody.
Finally, let me say that I have nothing personal against the MorphOS project. As I've said I really like the idea of a PPC native AmigaOS. However, MorphOS does not currently offer me anything I really need or want, whereas WarpUp does. If Amiga decides to go forward with their AmigaOS4.0PPC, and want to develop ONE PPC operating system, not discriminating any particular hardware solutions, running most or all applications and giving developers ONE official standard to conform to, they should be free to close down any competing standards which they have a legal right to close down. Before you start tearing that opinion apart, please note the "if" at the beginning of the sentence. If Amiga has no intention of moving the classic AmigaOS forward, it would not be right of them to work against those who do.
Kay |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 138 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by the man in the shadows on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 136 (Emmanuel Lesueur):
> Really? How come people are still using PowerUp then?
I'm going to answer this as it seems foolish not to. Install one piece of PowerUP sofware, and a whole slew of WarpOS software. The software that the end users job is dependant on requires PowerUP but the end user has everything else WarpOS. Why is it that the end user does just go one road... cause it's split... You can't get the majority of the WarpOS programs to run under PowerUP, and there are quite a few programs that refuse to work under the PowerUP emulation. If software programmers were smart enough to either offer the program in both kernels or not with any PPC enhancements at all, then and only then would people understand which kernel is used more. Personally, I can't stand using PowerUP... not even under emulation since that seems to crash too much on my setup. What's going to happen with MorphOS?
> And no, I'm not telling that PowerUp won. There are _no_ figures telling
> which kernel is the most used. And anyway, the existence of MorphOS will
> probably have an effect on this. Most people probably don't care if
> the kernel is named WarpOS or PowerUp, they care about software. And
> MorphOS has brought in the last few months much more native software
> than WarpOS has.
All of the native MorphOS software of which you speak has yet to either be out of Beta or released for purchase in commercial grade. As far as the future developement of MorphOS, I'm not going to hold my breath until it's a day or two away from being released.
What I would like to see happen though. I would like to see MorphOS released, but released with software that has not been properly licensed and not able to be cleared up until after the software ships. That is what I want to see happen. It would be interesting to see how many of those who oppose the purchase of OS3.9 stand up for MorphOS at that time. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 139 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Rod on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | It is very interesting to read everyone's comments on OS 3.9 and Amiga Intl. I think you guys are very lucky to have someone like Fleecy directly answering emails and comments, providing feedback. When was the last time you heard Bill Gates or Steve Jobs talking directly to the Joe Citizens of the world about their OS's????
I work for an AppleCentre here in Perth, Australia (and own a couple of Amigas!) and can see parallels between Apple and Amiga. Apple are forging ahead with OS X yet there are a number of people who do not want to change from the current OS 9. Apple can't afford to keep developing for old technology, and hopefully OS X will go to some means in correcting that. It is annoyed many people, but the amount of converts from Windows that Apple can get is the most important part. The old hands will come too! (Well, eventually!)
And the argument of spending tons of money on equipment doesn't wash! This is the computer industry!
If Amiga are going to be a force like they were years ago, then it is time to concentrate on developing Amiga DE! |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 140 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Syzygy on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 127 (Keith Blakemore-Noble):
I'll see your 4 Amiga, 2 Suns blah blah..
And raise you, 2x C=64s, a C16 Plus/4 and a little fluffy dog! :-))
Peace,
Syzygy. |
|
| WOA2000 news : Comment 141 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Syzygy on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 134 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
>If an AmigaOS4.0PPC should happen, MorphOS should not exist.
And if OS4 doesn't happen? What then?
OS3.9 should be the end of the line for the C= Amiga? |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 142 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by phil on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 138 (the man in the shadows):
Héhéhéhé,
It is the inverse for me, i can't use warup cose it crash
all the times :)). Hope that warpup 5 is more stable.
Another thing, linuxppc doesn't works with warpup (even with the
patch). So for me only two choice..... are left for the user:
1. OS4.0 and IT IS the standard (must be quick), if not,
2. Morphos because it is the only one by now to be fullPPC.
Phil
nb: i have two boot (one warpup for the game and for the rest powerup). |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 143 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Syzygy on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 137 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
You want a PPC OS, well MorphOS is exactly that!! But you choose not
to use it because it doesn't support WarpOS, well here's an idea...
instead of saying to everyone "buy 3.9, we need it so we can have a
PPC OS" why don't you start asking H&P to write a WOS wrapper for
MorphOS?
The reason for not doing this will be because you don't like
Ralph Schimdt, well who cares? Its the OS that counts, not the
attitude of the guy writing it. BTW, laire only seems to have an
attitude when people are ignorant, or start flaming him.
The next reason is your definition of WOS being the most popular. Have
a look on aminet, how much software that you use under WOS doesn't
have a PUP version?? Besides a bunch of old games that have been
ported to WOS, there is no real advantage in running WOS.
The advantages of everyone using PUP are obvious, everything would be
supported in MorphOS, and in theory everything would work on a G4 Mac
when MorphOS runs on that hardware, but oh no, it's far far simpler to
bodge a G4 onto an 9 year old motherboard with bodged on PCI and an
"official" PPC OS than it is to buy new hardware - how many people
have complained about wanting new hardware? - and sit back and think..
wow MorphOS really flies on this G4.
Guys if you want to buy OS3.9, go ahead. If you think you'll get a PPC
OS buy buying it... well, thats your own opinion and your entitled to
it. Just remember what Keith posted, H&P were working on a PPC AmigaOS
when Gateway owned the Amiga, it's only since Bill and Fleecy took
over that H&P have been told to stop development. And on this very
page, Fleecy has said he wants AmigaOS PPC.. why WTF is AI not letting
H&P code one?
The third MorphOS beta will be out soon, all I can say is try it. Take
a look at the authors who are supporting, or who have promised to
support it. And check Aminet to see how much of your beloved WOS
software is available for PUP.
Peace,
Syzygy. |
|
| WOA2000 news : Comment 144 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 143 (Syzygy):
> instead of saying to everyone "buy 3.9, we need it so we can have a
> PPC OS" why don't you start asking H&P to write a WOS wrapper for
> MorphOS?
-
Hehe, I am buying 3.9 because I want it. I will consider buying a second copy if
Amiga seems to have a shot at getting 50k sales...that would be for the sake of a
PPC AmigaOS. About the WOS wrapper for MorphOS, yes that would change everything, wouldn't
it? I don't really see it happening, but if it does, it should tip the balance of
pros and cons in favour of MorphOS.
-
> The reason for not doing this will be because you don't like
> Ralph Schimdt, well who cares? Its the OS that counts, not the
> attitude of the guy writing it. BTW, laire only seems to have an
> attitude when people are ignorant, or start flaming him.
-
I don't hate Ralph Schmidt. I just seriously dislike the way he tends to explain
people disagreeing with some sort of dysfunctionality of mind or moral. I also dislike
how he appears not to be able to change his mind or admit any failure of his own, and
completely ignore any relevant point not supporting his opinion. But that's just the
subjective impression I've got of the man from what he's written here. I don't really
know him. And however I feel about him, it would not stop me from using MorphOS if I
wanted it.
-
> The advantages of everyone using PUP are obvious, everything would be
> supported in MorphOS, and in theory everything would work on a G4 Mac
> when MorphOS runs on that hardware, but oh no, it's far far simpler to
> bodge a G4 onto an 9 year old motherboard with bodged on PCI and an
> "official" PPC OS than it is to buy new hardware - how many people
> have complained about wanting new hardware? - and sit back and think..
> wow MorphOS really flies on this G4.
-
I don't care if WarpOS or PowerUp "wins", as long as there is only one. As for
G4 mac's, I think they are WAY too expensive (and hard to expand?). I think I
read somewhere that with AmigaDE running off a G3/G4 PCI card, the 9 year old
motherboard would work more as an addon card to the PCI/G3/4 than the other way
around.
-
> And on this very page, Fleecy has said he wants AmigaOS PPC.. why WTF is AI not letting
> H&P code one?
-
I don't really know the facts on this, so...but I defineately want AmigaOS PPC coded by
H&P and supervised closely by Amiga...if H&P are willing to take the risk, I think Amiga
should go ahead, regardless of OS3.9 sales.
-
> The third MorphOS beta will be out soon, all I can say is try it. Take
> a look at the authors who are supporting, or who have promised to
> support it. And check Aminet to see how much of your beloved WOS
> software is available for PUP.
-
Okay, I will look at Aminet. I won't install MorphOS yet though, for reasons stated earlier.
-
Kay |
|
| WOA2000 news : Comment 145 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Björn Hagström on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 143 (Syzygy):
"The advantages of everyone using PUP are obvious, everything would be
supported in MorphOS"
Wrong, everything would not be supported by MorphOS. They have stated
several times that the mediator hardware will not be supported.
The MorphOS team and those supporting it is as good at dividing the
community as anyone else doing it.
The Classic market is a disgusting place of childish people who
should really start to grow up.
I'm just waiting for the AmigaDE to come out to be able to leave
all these idiots behind. |
|
| WOA2000 news : Comment 146 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by fleecy on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 143 (Syzygy):
The last ten or so comments are precisely why we have said
what we have said. It's worse than the life of Brian sketch in the
ampitheatre, the Amiga Liberation Front, the Peoples Popular Front of
Amiga, the Popular Peoples front of Amiga etc etc - doing nothing but damage.
I repeat, if we see enough evidence of a viable business market, then we will
move forwards with one, officially sanctioned, heads banged together if you don't PPC OS4. Everyone WILL play, or they will be ejected from the playground.
And for the 8 millionth time, we didn't stop H&P from doing a PPC OS. They sent a letter to GW2K asking to be allowed to do it, and Gateway never replied, because they didn't care.
With OS3.9 done, they asked us, can we do a PPC OS4 and we said no because if a
PPC OS4 is to be done, it would need far more resources than H&P have, would need to prove itself financial attractive to commercial developers and would have to bring the community together again - there is only one company that can do a PPC OS4, and that is Amiga. I spoke to almost all the major players at Cologne and they agreed with us, including the 50k minimum market size.
So Amiga is lined up, the developers are lined up, we need to see the users
lined up.
No more a v b, x v y v z fights or battles - PPC hardware from Eyetech, bPlan,
DCE and Elbox, for classic and standalone, games galore - a future for AmigaOS.
Now show us, all of us that it is worth us doing. OS3.5 sales suggest not. OS3.9
is the last chance to prove us wrong. Even if you never install it, it is a vote
for AmigaOS4, and the lame excuse that I'm not buying it but I'll buy OS4
doesn't cut it, because if you don't buy it, there won't be an OS4.
Harsh and nasty, yes, but so is business...and if people on ANN must know, I am getting a lot more of supporting mails for this from the silent majority than
I am nastygrams. They have all committed to buying OS3.9, whether they use it or not, and if you are lucky, they will take it to 50k, and you can all smile
smugly and say, hah, I didn't buy it, and still get AmigaOS4 and feel good about yourselves.
Thanks for your support. |
|
| WOA2000 news : Comment 147 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Al K on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 119 (Mousky):
>> WinDO$-Users do, just like the lemmings, only its getting worse anytime ;-)
> How different are Amiga users who pre-ordered OS3.9 with very little information from your so-called Windows
> lemmings?
We _only_ used to play it..
Well, pre-information on 3.9 was not perfect, so to say. But as Win users buy
if only a new version comes out (lemming-wise), Amiga users try to do more
deeper research on what they get, as from my experience. Therefore the information
late-ness on 3.9 was even more critical, must agree with that.
But even if you preordered 'with very little information', what would you
expect from a new OS release which should have been called 3.6 instead of 3.9
as H&P have inofficially stated?
Super-duper new features like RTG/RTA, PPCnative support etc. or only just
some fixes and addons like WarpOS 5.0, AmiDock.. to make the system more unified
and smooth?
If you preordered whilst hoping for the former you obviously would fail,
at least in today's Amiga market. It's all about expectations. |
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| WOA2000 news : Comment 148 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mark Olsen on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 143 (Syzygy):
> You want a PPC OS, well MorphOS is exactly that!! But you choose not
> to use it because it doesn't support WarpOS, well here's an idea...
> instead of saying to everyone "buy 3.9, we need it so we can have a
> PPC OS" why don't you start asking H&P to write a WOS wrapper for
> MorphOS?
Because it's not possible. It's a register usage thing. |
|
| WOA2000 news : Comment 149 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by John Niclasen on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 146 (fleecy):
I don't post often in public forums, and I will buy OS3.9, because I want it, and because of support of Amiga and a PPC OS.
So I must belong to the silent majority. Amiga Inc., keep up the good work! John Niclasen, Denmark. |
|
| WOA2000 news : Comment 150 of 184 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by the man in the shadows on 13-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 148 (Mark Olsen):
In proper bunny form...
> > You want a PPC OS, well MorphOS is exactly that!! But you choose not
> > to use it because it doesn't support WarpOS, well here's an idea...
> > instead of saying to everyone "buy 3.9, we need it so we can have a
> > PPC OS" why don't you start asking H&P to write a WOS wrapper for
> > MorphOS?
>Because it's not possible. It's a register usage thing.
kind of makes you wonder whether or not Ralph and Co planned it that way doesn't it. Having only one PowerUP and five WarpOS native applications, I would rather see the PowerUP emulation finished so that the one commercial PowerUP application that I have works properly. Idealy, it would be better if the one commercial PowerUP program finished the WarpOS port that they are working on. So now I'm supposed to either:
A) Throw all of the WarpOS programs out the window and install MorphOS as a dual-booting system with the hopes that all of the developers will write a MorphOS feature for the five programs that I currently use.
B) Continue using WarpOS waiting for the WarpOS core of the last commercial product that I use or wait for the developement of the PowerUP emulation to finalize.
Either way, I have to wait, and I would rather wait for the one that I have more commercial products of. (commercial does not include shareware or freeware). Also, if someone would like to convince Hyperion, clickBOOM, H&P, and Amiga to start looking into MorphOS, then I would consider MorphOS a more viable option. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime in the near future.
beating my head bloody against a brick wall cause I enjoy it. It's a spectator sport. ;) |
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