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[News] Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HWANN.lu
Posted on 30-Dec-2000 13:17 GMT by Christian Kemp41 comments
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AmiRaoul forwards a statement from T. Frieden on the Warp3D mailing list: For now, the Voodoo 3 is the only PCI card that we plan to support. So please, do NOT go out and buy either a Voodoo 4, Voodoo 5, GeForce, GeForce 2, Matrox G450, TNT, TNT2, BitchingFast 3D or whatever.
Recently, I'm getting mails from people telling me that they bought a specific graphics card, and are now waiting for us to do a Warp3D driver.

I would like to say the following:

For now, the Voodoo 3 is the only PCI card that we plan to support. So please, do NOT go out and buy either a Voodoo 4, Voodoo 5, GeForce, GeForce 2, Matrox G450, TNT, TNT2, BitchingFast 3D or whatever.

CHANCES ARE YOU SPEND A LOT OF MONEY FOR NOTHING.

We will NOT support any board we can't get documentation of. And we will NOT build 3D drivers based on Linux source code. No one of the Warp3D team does have any time to wade through megabytes of source code to find out the bits we need, nor the intent to try.

I would think it's common sense to ask before buying something that might not be supported, but the mails I get recently show me otherwise.

Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 24 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Jim on 31-Dec-1999 23:00 GMT
Warp3D, do you want to make money from your product? You've put all this time and effort (which is to be applauded) into making a piece of good software for a machine fit for emulation like the C64 and ZX.
If you could apply the same ability and motivation (and you must have had a lot of it to take comments like on this page) into making software for PC's and/or Macs you could make a ton. The PC market is vast compared to the tight pursed Amiga market. Do you already dabble in the PC market?
Listing some of the short comings of the Amiga I saw on this page, slow bus speed, old and slow CPU, imense lack of support it does seem like a lost cause.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 25 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Alcemyst on 31-Dec-1999 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (mikey):
Wrong...PCWORLD near me has loads of Voodoo3.PCI cards in stock
also PowerComputing have them & many more places.
you must be looking with your eyes shut :)
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 26 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 31-Dec-1999 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Mart):
I don't get any money out of Warp3D, so I definately don't want to pay a company to produce a driver. I don't think that a company would do that anyway. But if you're willing to donate a fitting amount of money, go ahead :-)
Best regards, Hans-Joerg.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 27 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 31-Dec-1999 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Jim):
No, we don't want to make money with Warp3D. That's why we actually don't sell it but give it away for free. Might be a radical concept, but that's the way it is. No, I could not give the same motivation to Windows or Mac (the only possible exception would be Linux, but I prefer the Amiga).
It would be a lost cause if we where on some kind of crusade or holy war. We aren't. The Amiga is my hobby, and to some extend my job (we do work on Linux and Mac, too). Compare it to someone who loves his '78 Corvette... It's neither the fastest car around, nor is it exactly the definition of comfort, but you just gotta love it...
Apart from that, calling the Amiga fit for C64 and Spectrum emulation is a very narrow-view oversimplification. It *does* run Heretic II very good on the Voodoo 3, and it can do a lot more than that. It's common for Windows and Mac users to put it that way, but that's ignorance and not knowledge.
Best regards, Hans-Joerg.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 1 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV0rl0n on 29-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
I thought the whole idea was that WarpUp, Warp 3D .. whatever was an element of hardware independence.
This seems to fly in the face of that.
Does`nt seem to me a clear positive that the only card supported is an old card, out of production (or near as dammit) and worse still, now a manufacturer who is de-funkd.
Anyway - I`m not a great follower of WarpWhatever, it just seems a really strange way of carrying our hardware independent builds this way ....
AdmV
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 2 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Timothy De Groote on 29-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (AdmV0rl0n):
You have the developer info for Voodoo4/Voodoo5 ? Maybe GeFORCE driver info ? I DO NOT think so.
They do NOT exclude the option of doing such drivers but you do NEED info and warning people
not to buy cards of which one cannot be certain developer info will be made available seems questionable to you ?
What is the ideal way of doing HD independant drivers ? :)
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 3 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by nozaj on 29-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (AdmV0rl0n):
Voodoo 3 may be old, but its found in many shops at a reasonable price. It also beats the pants off all other current Amiga offerings.
The warp3D team just don't have the time to write drivers for every card. It makes far more sense to support a few decent cards.
Any way, with a bit of luck we should all be useing NG Matrox cards coupled with G4's :)
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 4 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 29-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (nozaj):
I can only agree with this.
The offerings by nVidia are very nice indeed but unfortunately it is impossible to get the necessary documentation from them, even under NDA, to do drivers.
S3 has also dropped out of the game which is a shame because the Savage 2000 is an extremely powerful and well rounded card.
Matrox currently only offers AGP cards so this isn't an option for Mediator, GREX etc.
Basically all you are left with is 3DFX (Voodoo 3/4/5) and ATI (Radeon).
If you subsequently bring another element into the equation, the available CPU power, it's clear that the Voodoo 3 is the best choice.
Current Amiga PPC boards simply don't have the horsepower to saturate even a Voodoo 3, let alone a Voodoo 4 or heaven forbid an ATI Radeon.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 5 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Timothy De Groote):
I think that the biggest hoot is the fact that there are people out there still saying that Amiga will get anything nVidia... HAH! That will be the day. When nVidia is no longer in the sack with Microsoft... then and _only_ then it would be a maybe, but at that point there would not be a real big deal about it.
nVidia, even though they make some very powerful graphics cards, sucks bad due to their open sourcing/developing policy.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 6 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Jim on 29-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
This may sound like a silly question, but why are people bothering to keep hanging on and on for support other OS's take for granted?
It seems a little like a lost cause.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 7 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by mikey on 29-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (nozaj):
In NZ you can't get VooDoo3 cards because retailers stopped stocking them
ages ago. This makes Mediator a pointless purchase for me unless Elbox add
an AGP slot and a Matrox driver. I guess I just have to wait for AmiOne.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 8 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 29-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (AdmV0rl0n):
Point one: You have not understood what this is all about. For crying out loud, we can't write drivers for something that does not have open documentation. This does in no way invalidate the concept of hardware independance, since there are already three cards supported (ViRGE, Permedia2 and Voodoo 3).
Point two: We didn't say that no support for other cards will come. We just said that RIGHT NOW THE ONLY ANNOUNCED DRIVER IS FOR VOODOO 3. IF and ONLY IF we get documentation for other cards, we might do that, but until then it is as easy as that. Got it?
Point three: You say that the only card supported is old, but then the CPU we're using is also old, as is the bus transfer speeds. A Voodoo 5 does not make sense at all. Even under Linux only one Chip is used since the whole SLI stuff is a pain in the backside to program. If you don't believe me (after all I am just one of the programmers of Warp3D - which you call WarpWhatever), go and download the glide source and have a nice day.
Point four: If you want to make this an anti-WarpXXX campaign, go somewhere else.
We have just issued a warning to people so that they don't go spending their money on hardware that might never be supported. If you could provide documentation instead of stupid comments, we might support more cards.
I am growing sick and tired of this. I mentioned numerous times that we are not the only people that could write drivers, but its always easier to just demand this and demand that instead of getting one's own ass into motion, isn't it?
Best regards, Hans-Joerg Frieden.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 9 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 29-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (AdmV0rl0n):
> I thought the whole idea was that WarpUp, Warp 3D .. whatever was an
> element of hardware independence.
Yes, and it still is. Unfortunately, you don't seem to get what that means. It means that a programmer doesn't need to bother about the hardware, the driver does that. So, of course, the driver does not magically appear out of thin air. Is that so hard to understand ?
> This seems to fly in the face of that.
> Does`nt seem to me a clear positive that the only card supported is an old
> card, out of production (or near as dammit) and worse still, now a
> manufacturer who is de-funkd.
Well, if you bother to read the complete message, you would have noticed that it is the only card developer information is available for.
> Anyway - I`m not a great follower of WarpWhatever, it just seems a really
> strange way of carrying our hardware independent builds this way ....
What a bunch of nonsense. You really don't get the concept, it seems. The system is an abstraction of the hardware, but the individual hardware driver must still be written. This is the same with, for example DirectX or OpenGL.
If you just want to bash on WarpWhatever, you should try to get facts before posting, otherwise, you are just offending people.
Regards, Thomas
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 10 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
Yeah, nVidia is so in bed with M$ that they even have pretty much the most powerful linux drivers out there. Now if you would just realize that they can't open source their drivers because THEY DON'T OWN ALL TECH THAT IS IN THEM..... They are not allowed to release that info unless their liscensing agreements with the tech owners change.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 11 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Anonymous):
> THEY DON'T OWN ALL TECH THAT IS IN THEM
No need to shout.
They still suck about providing *any* type of documentation for developing, period. You would think that they would jump at the chance to at least give out their own specifications but no.. they are too good for that. Ask someone with the nVidia group, you'll soon be educated about this as well. The scariest part is that some of the information that they hold dear is so tightly embedded into a company that has long since gone bye-bye and the patents released (don't know how much you know about Chromatic which was purchased by ATI who released some of the hardware patents in 97). To me, The nVidia Group is a company that looks up to the level of being pathetic. Even still, they can sure make a mean graphics card, nothing bad about that.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 12 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Thomas Frieden):
> If you just want to bash on WarpWhatever, you should try to get facts before
> posting, otherwise, you are just offending people.
Yeah... Warp3D sucks. It can't do anything... I don't like playing HereticII or Quake or Descent or check out plugins with AmigaAMP... those just suck... they are bad and should not be in existance. Oh god... and WipeOUT 2097 sucks too, it's not even playable it goes so fast. And and and then there's WarpOS... that just sucks too you know. It can't do anything really important, specially that ppclibemu junk that pretends to be PowerUP... PowerUP sucks...er I mean, WarpWhatever sucks.
[very ignorant sounding isn't it?]
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 13 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by StormLord on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
I am extremely greatful to the programers of Warp 3D.
I would buy a voodoo 4500 for my PC and when grex was out this card would fit in my migy.
thanks for the warning.
I will now buy a V3 instead.
But I also want to make a request, what about ATI's cards ?
any experts in hardware respect ATI for the quality of their cards.
In some cases is not as fast as other options available but their performance are decent,
AND they provide documentation and help to write drivers for another platform.
Just e-mail them, they will not ignore you.
ATI 128 pro has the same performance ase V3 and even better in some cases and it is also cost effective.
And Ati Radeon is the fastest board in market at this time.
Maybe the prossesor that we have for now is not capable of drive radeon but I belive,
that after Grex, DCE will produce G3 cards or even G4's, from elbox side they develop SharkPPC.
So really soon will have the powerhorses.
I know that writing a good driver takes much time and effort, by the time these drivers will be ready the upcoming ppc solutions will be in production for sure.
I wish ALL the Amiga community a HAPPY NEW (and productive) AmiYEAR!
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 14 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Gosh, that was really bad news, I hope there will be an alternative to Warp3D, one which supports new cards and not just one antique pice of junk.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 15 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Trizt):
Uh-hu.
Tell you what, why don't YOU write an alternative, eh?
I mean, how hard can it be after all? It's not as if you will need documentation from the card manufacturers in order to do this - information which the makers DO NOT RELEASE.
Yes, I'd LOVE to have a GeForce 2 MX in my Amiga. However, given that nVidia do NOT release their specs to anyone, who the hell to you propose that the Warp3D team go about writing drivers, hmm?
Let's face it, the reason AmigaInc moved from nVidia to Matrox as their gfx card for the new Amiga (remember, folks, AInc were originally specing the GeForce family of cards as the standard for their new systems) is because they could not get teh specs from nVidia, whereas Matrox were more than happy to provide the necessary documentation.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 16 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Trizt):
Oh, what a qualified comment. You do not seem to understand at all what this is about.
Every alternative to Warp3D would be faced with the same problem - chip documentation. If you can't get them, how the hell are you going to support more cards?
Apart from that "one antique piece of junk" just shows it. We support three cards at the moment. The Voodoo chip spec's are dated 1999, that's a bit above one year.
Oh, and about writing an alternative to Warp3D: It took as one and a half year to get the thing done, and another year or two to get to the current point. It's not as if those things grow on trees. Go ahead and try your luck :-)
Best regards, Hans-Joerg.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 17 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Keith Blakemore-Noble):
Yes, I was trying to get this point across. People seem to think that we would like to somehow dictate what cards they have to buy, but in reality it is a question of getting documentation.
Unfortunately Matrox cards are only available as PCI, since, as you said, Matrox is much more willing to support foreign OSes. ATI might also be an alternative.
Best regards, Hans-Joerg.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 18 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Trizt):
Sigh. To repeat this once and for all:
WE DO NOT GET ANY DOCUMENTATION ON ANY OTHER GRAPHICS CARD EXCEPT FOR THE VOODOO 3 AT THE MOMENT.
How hard is it to understand this ? We do not say we don't wont to support this card or that card, we just do not get the documentation.
So we publically announced this just because we don't want people to waste their money buying cards that will not get supported, because WE CAN'T SUPPORT THEM DUE TO LACK OF DOCUMENTATION.
I already said that multiple times, so anybody who now says that we are not willing to support certain cards is a damn liar. It's that simple.
So anybody, get me the documentation for Voodoo 4, and we do everything possible to support it. Everybody who still doesn't get it, read through our posts again, and this time, read *every* word in it, before making comments on half-read articles.
We spent hours, weeks and months creating Warp3D, and some people have the f***ing nerve to not take the few seconds and read the complete article, or trying to understand what was said, but take the time to make stupid comments.
Regards, Thomas
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 19 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Mart on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Dont start flaming me (or do, I dont care..) but isn't it possible to aproach
Nvidia or anyone else, give them an Amiga and ask, beg and pay them to write
a driver for us ?
I know its pathetic, but are there any alternatives ?
btw, Warp3D team: you are doing a great job for us, its NOT your fault !
Mart -waiting again and still for an AmigaOne-
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 20 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Frederik Yssing on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
I think Warp3D and WarpOS are some of the greatest things (software) to ever be
developed for the amiga.
It makes it easy to write 3D apps. and PPC apps. to.
Personally I think HereticII, GLQuake, Wipeout and the other games and plugins.
really kick ass when using Warp3D..
I just want to thank the whole Hyperion team and every one else involved.
Keep up the good work, and keep producing/converting those games :-)
I will buy a kopy of every one of them. sooner or later..
I really hope you get information on other 3D cards to..
Kind regards Frederik Yssing
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 21 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Thomas Frieden):
Guys, I know it really gets to you when people make these kind of comments, but try to ignore the ignorance. Most people really _do_ understand the limits of what you can do without documentation on the chipsets. I think the people above do as well, but just want to stir the pot a bit.
Voodoo3 is a very capable chipset. I have 2 PC's here right now, one with Voodoo3 3000AGP and the other with ViperII Savage 2000 chipset (and yes Ben, I agree that the Savage 2000 is very well rounded card...I like it way better than my Voodoo3). But to be able to have a Voodoo3 card in my Amiga would be awesome. The Amiga market has not been at the front of cutting edge hardware technology for many years now... To even be able to have last years cutting edge card is a miracle. Great job on Warp3D (it even impressed the hell out of me on my old CV643D running on an 040, so I will love to see it on Voodoo3 with PPC G3/G4) Keep up the good work. A good product will always have a market, and Warp3D does a fine job.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 22 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Georg Steger on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
There are projects like UDI
http://www.project-udi.org
which have the goal to provide a standard for portable driver code.
This means that you can use the same binary driver on many OSes,
without having to port it, under the condition that they run on the
same CPU.
--> One single driver for all OSes running on x86 CPU
--> One single driver for all OSes running on PPC CPU
So if both the OS you use and the hardware company support something
like UDI on the CPU you use (no matter what OS you are running) then
you would have the drivers running automatically, without need of
porting (which might not be possible at all if you can't get developer
docs)
But I don't know if this is ever going to become reality for 3D gfxcard
drivers :-\
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 23 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by bbuilder on 30-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
I just bought Voodoo3 2000... ;)
It cost me $20.
(not tested it much yet, because modern PC games refuse to install on my Duron box...)
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 28 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 31-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Jim):
The PC market might well be vast but so is competition.
By way of example, many PC game companies lose tons of money on the PC including some of the biggest names like Eidos (Lara Croft series) and Interplay.
Looking Glass went out of business this year despite having produced classics like Thief and Thief II.
Other companies had to sell out to Microsoft and Infogrames to say alive (Bungie, Digital Anvil, GT Interactive etc.)
No, the vast number of users doesn't by itself generate a profit if the huge amount of capital you need to invest can't be recuperated.
It is sometimes better to be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a large pond.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 29 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Jim on 31-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
Fair comment, if it's your hobby that's all that matters.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 30 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Yoris/Hyperion on 01-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Mart):
I already contacted somebody at NVidia for this kind of stuff.
This unfortunately gave no results.
It looks as if they simply don't want.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 31 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 01-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Hi
Afaik Frank Mariak has written 2D drivers Voodoo4 or Voodoo5.
Do u know if he has only 2D documentation of Voodoo4 and 5 or
did he reverse-engineer Linux drivers ?
I am afraid that this lack of documentation can effect the sales
of AmigaOne1200-4000 PPC.
I hope when AmigaOnePPC becomes reality, Warp3D team can get Matrox
and ATI documentation..
Thanks
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 32 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 01-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (bbuilder):
From where did you buy it ?
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 33 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Trizt on 01-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
It seems like my earlier comment made people to react. I do understand that documentation is needed to do things easier. But just giving up for not having a documentation is a little bit to much IMHO. I know that backenginering of linux drivers and such will take time for make nVidia drivers, but don't forget that you suddenly will support quite many cards (from Riva128-Gforce).
Hopefully the W3D-team can get other companies to help with documentation for different cards, but where would the x86-developers be if they hadn't decided to do a little bit of backenginering?
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 34 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Buzzy on 01-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Trizt):
You didn`t get it , did you? You need the DOCUMENTION to do proper drivers. Why
don`t you do a bit reverse engineering? Take the Linux drivers, mail the Frieden
brothers to get the Warp3D Dev-Kit and in two weeks we all expect the first W3D
drivers for nVIDIA based cards from you.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 35 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by DARIUS on 02-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Phase5/DCE programmed a simple Driver for theit first Permedia2 Gfx Card - it had been based one a McIntosh Driver with PCI Interface.
Which Cardmakers produce PCI-Cards for PowerMacs?
ATI Rage128, Matrox, maybe Ati Radeon in the near future!
Do they even use the same PCI2.1 Interface Architecture?
Do they use the same Processor (PPC G3/G4)?
What about 3D!
I don#t know anything about 3D nore about Warp3D!
Ther is an Open Standard - its called OpenGL!!!
ITS FREE TO IMPLEMENT!!!!!!!
ITS on PeeeCeee, UNIX, Linux? and Macs?
is modifying a MacDriver for Amiga with help or permission of ChipManufacturer (ATI) possible?
is it not better to adopt an existing thing than reinventing the wheel?
BTW i'm stupid in kind of gfx things - but a small community in the world of Computers has to grab everything good out of this foreign world to put it into AmigaWorld!
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 36 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 02-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Too bad that Amiga themselves couldn't negotiate on behalf of the developer community for the documentation from various manufacturers like ATI and nVidia, and then supply documentation to appropriate parties to write drivers. That would be ideal.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 37 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 02-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Trizt):
Documentation doesn't make it easier, it makes it POSSIBLE. If you would be willing to wade through re-enigneered assembly source code, or some obscure macro-ridden C-code, go ahead, but don't expect from other people what you are not willing or able to do yourself.
Apart from that, the GeForce driver on x86 Linux are binary only. Its not a matter of looking through some source code with comments and proper variable naming.
Where would the x86-developers be without a little bit of re-engineering? That is the most stupid argument I've ever come across in this thread. You *are* aware that the x86 Linux community is considerably larger that the Amiga community? That most companies where eager to support Linux in the last year? That NVidia does the Linux support themselves instead of letting people re-engineer their windows drivers? Linux used to be a buzzword for the last one and a half years, opening many doors, but still not to NVidia.
We're not "giving up". But as I said before we don't ask money for Warp3D, so WE decide how much time we invest, and right now this time is limited. If you're ready, be supportive and offer your help in driver development instead of making destructive comments like this.
Best regards, Hans-Joerg.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 38 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 02-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Trizt):
Have you ever tried to go through driver source code without even having a clue on how the chip does work ?
The glide source code is available (hopefully still), so I invite you to download it and have a look. You have three different ways to compile the source code (depending on what preprocessor symbols you define), plus the opportunity to learn a lot about the psychadelic reactions of some weeds (From the glide source "You are smoking crack").
As to the nVidia Linux drivers, do you know that it's not open source ? There are old drivers that support the TNT chips, but not for the GeForce. And even if you could rework the drivers to source code form, it's unkonw to anyone outside nVidia how exactly the whole T&L stuff works. Figuring this out will take ages.
As you are probably not aware of the magnitude of the work involved, how can you even make judgement on this topic. You don't *know* if it's possible at all, yet you claim it is, and call me lame for not doing it. I would really appreciate if you would believe my judgment, because, not wanting to boast, but I'm far more qualified than you to judge this matter.
Regards, Thomas.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 39 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 02-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (DARIUS):
I'm glad you said yourself that you don't know much about Warp3D or 3D graphics.
:-)
OpenGL is an open standard, in such a way that it defines an API and a state machine that define what the result of applying API calls to certain states will look on the screen. It does not define anything below that, most notably it does not define a hardware API or driver API or anything else.
OpenGL is free to implement? Yeah, sure, give me a team of, say, 10 people and two years time, and I'll deliver a nice optimized OpenGL implementation that might even run on a 603/166. But still, WITHOUT DOCUMENTATION OF THE CHIP THERE WILL BE NO HARDWARE SUPPORT IN IT. How hard is it to get this? At some point there MUST be an interface to the hardware.
Sure, try to get a MacOS OpenGL driver from a company. If you pay them they might even be willing to do so, but otherwise they would have Opensourced it before. Apart from that, they will have signed an NDA with the chip company, so they might not even be allowed to give me the source *even* if I paid them.
We do have an OpenGL implementation BTW, StormMesa, plus a few other Mesa implementations (check Aminet - I think there was one more with Warp3D support). But the point is, that every mesa before StormMesa didn't have hardware support at all. Why? Because before Warp3D this was simply not possible.
Best regards, Hans-Joerg.
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 40 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 02-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (DARIUS):
> Ther is an Open Standard - its called OpenGL!!!
> ITS FREE TO IMPLEMENT!!!!!!!
> ITS on PeeeCeee, UNIX, Linux? and Macs?
... and Amiga, where it is based on Warp3D, and called StormMesa (or MiniGL). You are mixing up high level and low level APIs.
Regards, Thomas
Warp3D supported cards for PCI-HW : Comment 41 of 41ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 04-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Trizt):
Hi!
A comment to this "alternative to Warp3D?" comment ways up on this thread,
and to clear up some misconceptions...
There is no alternative to Warp3D, and even if there would this would not
solve the problem that *the documentation to write Drivers for Voodoo 5/G-Force/
ATI Radeon/Whatever...* is just *not available*. Nobody can write Drivers for it,
if the manufacturers do not give the information out (or there are other chips
like the Voodoo 4, where information about the 2D part is out, but not the
3D Part, and for Warp3D you obviously need the Chipset documentation.
This is no ill-will of the Warp3D team. But they cannot write Drivers for
Chips where there is no documentation. And of course it makes also no sense
if people start buying all sort of cards, and a dozen different Drivers have
to be written were one Driver would be enough. The current hardware wont profit
from any 3D Chip faster than a Voodoo 3 anyways. It is good that the Warp3D
people warned people from buying the wrong hardware :)
So the Voodoo 3 (cheap, fast) is a good start. Later (with developements like
the AmigaOne on the horizon) maybe other things will make sense - and if the
required *Chipset documentation* will be accessible - there will be surely
other possibilities.
But for now Voodoo 3 it is.
Anonymous, there are 41 items in your selection
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