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[News] PCI Boards for A1200 are available nowANN.lu
Posted on 06-Mar-2001 20:37 GMT by Christian Kemp53 comments
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Guenter Horbach wrote: As of today, the two PCI Boards for the Amiga 1200 (Mediator from Elbox and G-Rex from DCE) are available at KDH Datentechnik. Bundle prices, which include the PCI boards and the Voodoo3 boards are also available. KDH ships Amiga products worldwide. So take advantage of the current Dollar / DM exchange rate and make your Amiga PCI dream come true. The German VAT (16%) will NOT be charged to shipments outside of the EU countries.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 1 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 05-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
Does this mean they have G-Rex in stock? Why was there announcement from DCE?
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 2 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (redrumloa):
Yeah, I mean you can still order a BoXeR from Blittersoft :)
I think the Amiga community is about sick of "pre-ordering" items before they're available as we've been bit on the ass too many times now.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 3 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
G-REX 1200? oh..uh...we want to move to G3/G4 don't we?
Why would someone want this expansion? And stick with a 603e while there will be a SharkPPC and a AmigaOne1200?
up to 25MB/sec??? The BVision can reach 13MB/sec on my system....no reason to believe that the G-REX can do better while it apparently uses the same PCI bridge as the BVision.
Any busspeed tests are welcome :)
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 4 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
Uh?? Looking on the website of vesalia (www.vesalia.de) De G-Rex is even more expensive then the Mediator.
For a couple of standard parts. That G-REX picture must be exspensive :).
Or de Voodoo3 CGFX driver bribe maybe? :))
Mediator 1200399DM
G-REX 1200438DM
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 5 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Amifan):
I agree. The need for a BlizzardPPC to use this PCI interface is a fatal flaw. Even I, having a BlizzardPPC already (slightly broken one, admittedly), wouldn't want this. What I want is:
*PCI
*G4 (fastest available)
*SDRAM
*WarpUp and Warp3d
*AmigaDE
*Amiga 68k emulation
Whichever solution offers me this first will get my money. If AmigaONE comes with this available at a decent prize, I might sell my Mediator. As for G-Rex, I don't see any real advantages... I want a replacement for my PPC card, not an expansion...
Kay
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 6 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Steffen Haeuser on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
Hi!
The market for the G-Rex is not exactly the market of people wanting to get
G3s IMHO. Still it is a useful product. It enables you - like the Mediator -
to use a Voodoo 3 Board in your Amiga which can, especially concerning
3D Software give you a noticable speedup. A G3 Board + PCI and a pure
PCI Expansion are not exactly direct concurrence, they are different products
for different people I think (you might notice that for example CV/PPC and
CV/3D were also sold parallel despite the fact that the CV/PPC was incredibly
more powerful than the CV/3D). I think all three products (AmigaOne, G-Rex,
Mediator) can sell (the Mediator has the extra that it does not need one
of the existing or upcoming PPC Boards), despite each other. What you'll buy
depends on your needs :)
Steffen Haeuser
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 7 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
Ok, but there is 0(ZERO) usefulness without drivers. Mediator has drivers, why buy a G-Rex without an official announcement from DCE concerning available drivers upon launch?
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 8 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (redrumloa):
I'm sure that the G-REX will ship with the announced drivers "cybergfx" Frank had enough time to code at least the cgfx ones (He had to because he accepted DCE's "bribe" :) ). A quick seach on the internet shows that the sources for nearly all 10Mbps ethernet ICs are widely available. This makes me wonder why they only support the RTL8029(AS), OK. they got a 80% market share, but..
Nice to see support for the Voodoo4/5. It was a selling point of the G-REX until last week when ELBOX supplied voodoo4/5 drivers aswell :). Useless anyway...No big 2D improvement over the voodoo3 and no Warp3D support because of the lack of documentation.
By the way...no sounddriver too, while the small linux Soundblaster Live! source is available.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 9 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Steffen Haeuser):
Sorry, but I don't agree with you. The G-REX is targeted to people who wanted PowerPC (more speed) in the first place. (restricted to current PPC owners only ) OK, there was a BlizzardNG announed some time ago (a PPC-less BlizzardPPC), but this one hasn't seen the daylight yet.
I don't think that majority of the current PPC oweners are satisfied with the speed of the 603e, if they know that they can go 5 times faster....SDRAM, AGP L2 cache...
The only market I can see is the "second hand" PowerPC market. People who want to feel the Power of the PowerPC without being able to buy a AmigaOne+MACPPC+SDRAM or a Mediator+SharkPPC+SDRAM.
And then there's the "hybrid AmigaOne/classic" market, A G-REX is useless, because:
A) The BlizzardPPC is not supported
B) The G-REX doesn't have an AGP slot. (Unlike the SharkPPC and AmigaOne ).
Ofcourse there might be some possibilities like current PPC owners wanting to expand their current PPC setup to the max without the need for a faster PPC for classic applications.
As AmigaOne hardware they want either a standard PC or something like the Eyetech AmigaOne1200 or the Pegasose.
But one thing is clear: With the G-REX, you reach the end of possibilities.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 10 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
Both, the G-Rrex and Mediator, together with a Voodoo3-3000 cost 598DEM at Vesalia.
I don't see, why I should buy a Mediator and SharkPPC as I don't know, if:
- there will be Warp3D drivers (the p96 v3/4/5 drivers can be considered as
pirated and I don't know if the Frieden brothers want to support pirates.
They won't be happy if I disassemble the PC version of Shogo and recompile
it for AmigaPPC and distribute it for free, I guess...)
I hope unless there's an official P96 driver they don't do a Warp3D driver
for Mediator.
- there will be WarpOS drivers for SharkPPC (I think H&P won't give away their
68k emulator for free)
Also with a bplan board (complete system for around 1000 euro) I get the chance
to run MorphOS and AmigaDE.
For my Amiga I can now get MorphOS which will also provide native drivers for
the GRex board. I can't use MorphOS on a SharkPPC/Mediator though.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 11 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Emmanuel Lesueur on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Amifan):
"A" == "Amifan" writes:
A> Why would someone want this expansion? And stick with a 603e while
A> there will be a SharkPPC and a AmigaOne1200?
Replace "will" by "is supposed to" and you might get a better picture.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 12 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (David Scheibler):
> I don't see, why I should buy a Mediator and SharkPPC as I don't know, if:
>
> - there will be Warp3D drivers (the p96 v3/4/5 drivers can be considered as
> pirated and I don't know if the Frieden brothers want to support pirates.
Those drivers can also be considered as legal. There have already been a lot of
discussions on that issue, and the only thing I am able to say for certain about
it is: it is not possible to say anything for certain. It appears, both from the
differing opinions on this and my own interpretation of the P96 team's license,
that Elbox struck a "gray spot". The license does not effectively cover making
drivers for a third-party graphics card used on a first-party PCI interface. Make
of it what you want, but I am quite confident that any piracy claims would not
hold up in court. What is right or wrong, is of course another business.
As for Warp3d support, it has been said for some time that Warp3d will not support
Mediator Voodoo3 with the current driver. However, it has not been said by any member
of the Warp3d team. Thomas Frieden commented on this a little more than a month ago,
saying that support for the Mediator is not ruled out. He didn't say it was decided
either. So we don't know this. I think we will see Warp3d for Mediator Voodoo3, seing
that it would be a great advantage to Hyperion, which is where several members of
the Warp3d work...
> - there will be WarpOS drivers for SharkPPC (I think H&P won't give away their
> 68k emulator for free)
I would think it was in everybody's interest (H&P, Elbox, users). Still no guarantee
it will happen, I admit.
> For my Amiga I can now get MorphOS which will also provide native drivers for
> the GRex board. I can't use MorphOS on a SharkPPC/Mediator though.
Well, it was once said that you couldn't use WarpOS under MorphOS, but that changed,
didn't it? When MorphOS works on my hardware, I will probably get it. But that
hardware will not be a G-Rex. I don't want to be stuck with a slow G2. It's as simple
as that.
Kay
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 13 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Emmanuel Lesueur):
I would be very surprised if none of those G3/G4 accellerators made it to the
market. Do you have any reason to think they will not appear? Anyway, G-Rex is
more of a dead-end however you look at it. A G4 accelerator connected to a PCI
interface connected to a G2/68k accelerator connected to an Amiga 1200 motherboard?
I don't think so.
Kay
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 14 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
Arghh! I forgot that IBrowse removes open lines when I post here :-( Sorry for the
poorly formatted text.
-
Kay
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 15 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (David Scheibler):
Get your facts straight!
A)The Frieden bros. posted several times that there *WILL* be a warp3D driver for the Mediator.
B)Legal Elbox P96 driver or not...The P96 team is working on a Mediator Voodoo3 driver right now anyways. They even got a free Mediator board from some unknown spender. Mayb it's better to focus your hope on a G3 expansion for a G-REX :)
C)What does Warp3D have to do with Hyperion's Amiga Shogo? Or Hyperion at all?
D)Let the Warp3D team decide if there will be a WarpOS driver. BTW did phase5 pay/ask for a WarpOS driver? nothing is said on that so just wait .... but why do you want that if you can run WarpOS progs with AmigaDE..it must have a 68k emu too? 23 days left 'till we know...
E)MorphOS? buhahahahaha...68k emulation on a 603e, you're a funny guy.... guess i'd be better of with a 060 and a couple of context switches...
F) You can assosiate MorphOS and G-REX with Ralph Schmidt, what did you expect?
G) So you're one of those few going that way...Pleasant times running MorphOS with........NO COMMERCIAL APPS!!! Or use a WarpOS emu :))
I)No MorphOS on a SharkPPC....another reason to go for the SharkPPC
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 16 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Emmanuel Lesueur):
So there's *supposed* to be a Pegasos too??
There's *was* supposed to be a boxer too....
Fact:
Elbox delivered so far what they promised. You got PCI NOW...months before some release date of the G-REX, anyway according to Vesalia, the G-REX will hit the shelves 9 March...so there's still only one PCI expansion.
Because of the SharkPPC...Mediator drivers etc.. etc... The Mediator Z4 is delayed to end March.....well it's all about priorities.
And DCE was also busy with.........NOTHING! Their only project is the G-REX....they can't evn deliver sufficient PPC accelerators....and they even lack the Phase5 quality.....
So far there's only one amiga HW manufacturer you an trust and that's Elbox...Ok I also believe that Eyetech delivers AmigaOne 1200 as long as Amiga Inc. keeps alive...
And about the Pegasos...no AmigaDE native or something?? When I read the interviews,I got the impression that it's supposed to be some kind of MorphOS or linux box.
AmigaDE on top of Linux??
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 17 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
I've got to correct you on th Warp3D driver...
Hans-Jörg Frieden posted this on AmigaOne mailing list:
/*
Yes, we have a G-REX, as well as a Mediator, and we'll release the driver for both of them simultaneously if possible (the Mediator driver requires slightly more work due to bank switching).
*/
And he posted this a couple of days later on th Mediator mailing list:
/*
Rest assured that there *will* be full Voodoo 3 support. The problem is that it takes time, which is at the moment rather limited." -- "Of course, it is in Hyperion's best interest that Warp3D drivers for the Voodoo/Mediator do come out. But as I said, there is little time right now, and the installed user base of BVisionPPC/CVisionPPC owners is far greater (yet :-). Also, our customers have the right to finally get Shogo..." -- "Also, note again that Hyperion and Warp3D are different parties
*/
So I hope this open th eyes of any unbeliever :)
But to summarize it a little further:
Mediator and G-REX Voodoo3 support will be realised within the same Warp3D voodoo3 driver.....
Apparently this is an official statement for support for both busboards.....
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 18 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Amifan):
Love is in the air.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 19 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
What G4 expansion?? Maybe a G3 MAC PCI accelerator....but they have no AGP bus, so useless for the AmigaOne....
And what about all the other goodies like USB UDMA100.....you'll need a free PCI slot for that while the AmigaONe and SharkPPC have them on-board
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 20 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
b) So then I see no reason why there shouldn't be a Warp3d driver
c) It was just an example how I think about the "disassemble p96 and write
your own driver"-thing.
d) I spoke about the 68k emulation. H&P said several times that they won't
give away it for free (only bundled with hardware).
About AmigaDE: Last thing I heard was that Amiga Inc. has ported (parts of)
the AmigaOS to VP (I cant believe that though).
e) MorphOS 68k emulation on pegasos will be as fast as H&P's on SharkPPC.
d) There will be a commercial office package (see: www.amiga-news.de, forum)
Also I don't care so much about some games but I do about apps I use every day,
like: V3, YAM, MUI4PPC, etc.
If I want to play for example H2 then I can do it with MorphOS's WOS emulation.
BTW: H2 is faster under MOS on my system...
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 21 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Emmanuel Lesueur on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
"KAU" == "Kay Are Ulvestad" writes:
KAU> I would be very surprised if none of those G3/G4 accellerators made
KAU> it to the market. Do you have any reason to think they will not
KAU> appear?
I'm not telling that they won't appear. They may appear. But then
again, they may not. And I'm getting tired of seeing people advocating
against some products because SharkPPC *can* run software X, or *has*
feature Y. SharkPPC has no feature and can run nothing. It has just
announced features. *If* SharkPPC is built and *if* it matches what
is announced today, the points become valid. But those are big 'if's,
and omitting them in an argument is dishonest, IMHO.
Given the number of PPC cards that were announced during the last years,
and the number actually built, you'd have thought people would have
learnt to be cautious about announcements.
Now what I think about those announced boards (you may think I'm
biaised, being connected with MorphOS):
I don't believe in SharkPPC. While I'm ready to believe that Elbox
can manage to design the hardware, I think they highly underestimate
the software part of their project. It's easy to tell that their
board will be compatible with X or Y, or run software Z, and if their
hardware works, it's theoretically possible. But actually managing
that is a lot of work, and they better be prepared to invest a *big*
amount of time and money on it. It's much more complicated than
adapting an existing driver to a gfx card.
OTOH, I think bPlan's project has a chance. On the hardware side,
it seems simpler: it doesn't have to deal with dirty tricks to
work together with our old boards. And on the software side, it's
much more realistic. MorphOS already works, and most low level
drivers have already been replaced by native ppc versions, ready
to be ported to new hardware (that's all what is needed). Linux
has already been ported to so many systems that it's easy to believe
that porting it to a board made of standard parts shouldn't be too
difficult (probably much easier than porting it to P5 boards).
KAU> Anyway, G-Rex is more of a dead-end however you look at it.
It's completely different. G-Rex is a board for people who have
a PPC board *now*, and want to use PCI cards *now*. Whatever your
opinion is about the chances of the announced PPC boards, you won't
have them tomorrow.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 22 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (David Scheibler):
DTP for MorphOS? Can't find it on the forums of Amiga-news.de...I can remember that there will be a new DTP ported to the amiga....can't remember if it's going to the AmigaDE only...
Well hat's nice that you can run HereticII faster.....
Wait until we see WarpOS running with a 68k emulation....no context switches....then who's the winner?
Anyway...wait 'till we hear the specs of AmigaDE and seen HereticII running on a G4...
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 23 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Emmanuel Lesueur on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Amifan):
"A" == "Amifan" writes:
A> E)MorphOS? buhahahahaha...68k emulation on a 603e, you're a funny
A> guy....
Some people with 603e don't want to use 68k anymore... But that
depends on the software you use, I guess.
A> guess i'd be better of with a 060 and a couple of context switches...
Some people guess, some try...
A> F) You can assosiate MorphOS and G-REX with Ralph Schmidt, what did
A> you expect?
And this is a problem because?
A> G) So you're one of those few going that way...Pleasant times running
A> MorphOS with........NO COMMERCIAL APPS!!!
You forgot that MorphOS is not sold yet. Oh, and that it runs PowerUp
and WarpUp apps (not all (yet?)).
A> Or use a WarpOS emu :))
Yes, good idea. Some people reported that some WarpUp games work
faster under MorphOS. That makes sense, since there are no context
switches, and CGFX is native (among other things).
A> I)No MorphOS on a SharkPPC....another reason to go for the SharkPPC
So you choose your hardware in order to make sure that it doesn't run
a particular piece of software?
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 24 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 06-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (David Scheibler):
Regarding Warp3D on Mediator boards:
I will not judge the legality of the Elbox P96 drivers, I'm not a lawyer, and I think this is something only a lawyer can really decide.
It is true that we will release Warp3D drivers for the Mediator. We will, however, only actively support official P96 drivers. I personally think that this is the best way for us, as it will be the middle way.
Regards, Thomas
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 25 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Amifan):
I stand corrected then. And quite happily so too :-)
-
Kay
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 26 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Amifan):
A hypothetical G4 accellerator. I was just pointing out how unlikely that would
be on a G-Rex...
-
Kay
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 27 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Thomas Frieden):
Hey, isn't Ben Hermans a lawyer? Anyway, glad to hear about your choice. It seems a wise one to me.
-
Kay
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 28 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Emmanuel Lesueur):
> *If* SharkPPC is built and *if* it matches what
> is announced today, the points become valid. But those are big 'if's,
> and omitting them in an argument is dishonest, IMHO.
-
Heh :-) I always thought I was annoyingly honest...really, I did not omit any "if"'s for the cause of leading people to think that any products exist which don't.
-
> OTOH, I think bPlan's project has a chance. On the hardware side,
> it seems simpler
-
*If* it is built and *if* it matches what is announced by today... :-Þ
-
See how easy it can be to forget those essential "if"'s
-
Cheap point, I know, but I couldn't resist...
-
> KAU> Anyway, G-Rex is more of a dead-end however you look at it.
>
> It's completely different. G-Rex is a board for people who have
> a PPC board *now*, and want to use PCI cards *now*. Whatever your
> opinion is about the chances of the announced PPC boards, you won't
> have them tomorrow.
-
I have a PPC board *now*. And I use PCI cards *now*. The only difference
between me and a G-Rex user, ignoring the fact that there are no G-Rex users
quite yet, is that in a few months/weeks, I can hopefully unplug my BlizzardPPC
for good, replacing it with a faster, tidier solution. *If* it is built. Which
I think it will be.
-
Kay
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 29 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Shut up !!!!!! on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
All you Amiga users just kill me; put a gun to my head and pull the trigger!!!
This is going to be that and that could do this if that had this and others had a life!!!!
Let the products come to the market and let us Amiga users vote with our dollars... End of story!!!!! Amiga one is the solution and it is time to upgrade and get with the picture!!!!!! Old Amiga appss, I could care less.. They are old and suck if you compare them to what is out there on the PC side.. If you want to help the Amiga community, take off the blinders that induce tunnel vision and start emailing the software companies that write software for the PC line and tell them to port the software to the New Amiga, Macromedia Dreamweaver, Flash, Fireworks ect.... Surley you can do this. And if you can not do this, then we can have the best of everything!!
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 30 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Emmanuel Lesueur):
>And this is a problem because?
Because if there's someone out there wanting to run MorphOS but doesn't want a G-REX, he has a problem for this reason
>So you choose your hardware in order to make sure that it doesn't run
a particular piece of software?
forgot <sarcasm>.....</sarcasm>
>Yes, good idea. Some people reported that some WarpUp games work
faster under MorphOS. That makes sense, since there are no context
switches, and CGFX is native (among other things).
And some parts of the games use a 68k wihich is emulated a lot slower then the real thing, emulation eats up some CPU times, so what's the speed gain? 1fps more in HereticII?
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 31 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ralph Schmidt):
LOL!
Tsk tsk Ralph m8,
You've been in Amsterdam recently?
don't tell me that you asked for a coffee.....:)
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 32 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Emmanuel Lesueur):
Erm..
For People who want PCI NOW. The Mediator is for ppl who wanted PCI yesterday too.
What the point of buying a PCI board now while the Eyetech AmigaOne will be available in 2months or so....
It will be able to run 68k progs with an emulation and run PowerPC progs. with WarpOS.
Sounds like MorphOS uh? Well almost...MorphOS is a little more native....Native RTG system etc....
Nice nice nice....BUT, it happens all on some very outdated Pentium I class PowerPC 603e....
So hey..maybe the SharkPPC is not a great sollution until Elbox finally clearifies the software issue...
But without doubts, at least the Eyetech sollution is much better then this MorphOS/G-REX alternative.....
Imagine 68k speeds equal of what a 060 had done on 250Mhz....this is possible on a G3 500Mhz....
Then Imagtine the speed of HereticII on a 500Mhz with Voodoo3....try to compare this speed with HereticII running under MorphOS on a 603e with a Voodoo3 in a busboard with a theoretical speed of 25MB/sec instead of the full 132MB/sec....
Erm did I allready mention the 8ns 64bit SDRAM vs. the 50/60ns 32bit EDO ram speed difference???
And then there're this little magic words "Level2 cache"
Yes, all those PPC owners worried about performance hits with context switches and badly designed accelerators-causing-slow-bus-speeds can have the best PCI sollution in their case tomorrow (9th).
But the ultimate sollution will arrive in 2 months....I suggest them to save their money for this.
Well yeah...you can't run MorphOS on it (yet) because Eyetech is not Ralph Schmidt :) , but it's nothing more then an ordinary workaround for the context switches anyways.
And about the Pegasos: Where's the announcement that it will run AmigaDE native?
Did this MorphOS (Ralph) vs. AmigaInc. affect the situation of bPlan's (Ralph) innitial plan to deliver AmigaDE (AmigaInc.) compatibility?
Such exspensive hardware without custom chipset to run a context switch/68k emulation sollution for the classic amiga :) It's one big emulation which sounds like UAE under a new name.....
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 33 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Thomas Frieden):
This means that the Warp3D driver will be released after an official P96 driver appears and not sooner even if it's ready....
Hmm....well I have no doubts in the capabilities of the P96 team....
Ah....now I understand the request of the Voodoo datasheet on VGR some time ago....
Elbox has those datasheets, because..... well, you know....
"CyberGFX" Frank has them because of his voodoo3 driver....
Eyetech uses the core of this driver so there's no problem at all....
But the Picasso96 team started only recently with the developement of a driver....
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 34 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
HEhe, I was just ruling that option out completely....
People wanting a faster PowerPC will go for another (and better) sollution anyway....One with AGP...
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 35 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
Damn.....I don't like this crappy BlizzardPPC either...the connector completely sucks....I can't even boot my Amiga sometimes......Only when it's inserted at a certain angle....
Maybe I should trash my Mediator and go for a lotally acceleratorless option....(Eyetech).
Or leave it in place and buy a second a1200 mainboard + the Eyetech one....:)
I want an AGP sollution for my AmigaDE setup anyway...
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 36 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Amifan):
> Damn.....I don't like this crappy BlizzardPPC either...the connector completely sucks....I can't even boot my Amiga sometimes......Only
> when it's inserted at a certain angle....
Exactly the same situation here...I managed to improve it a few days ago though. What I did was basically to jimmy a solid piece of plastic between my PSU and BPPC instead of the lump'o'tape I used earlier. Now it's always at the right angle, so my system is actually quite usable. Some random resets, but not many. Thanks to Pepsi Corporation for the best BlizzardPPC add-on to date! ;-)
Kay
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 37 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Amifan):
/*Such exspensive hardware without custom chipset to run a context switch/68k emulation sollution for the classic amiga :) It's one big emulation which sounds like UAE under a new name.....*/
<br>
Not meaning to be arrogant but you don't know what you are taling about, do you?
<br>
/Nicholai
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 38 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Amifan):
The PPC only achieves high busbandwidths to nocache memory if
the *buscontroller* does writecombining to burst as the PPC
can't do that unlike x86.
But to do writecombining in a buscontroller the buscontroller
needs a lot logic which afaik no affordable programmable chipset
can deliver at affordable costs...despite the low clock rates.
Therefore you need ASICs to get the potential of current chips
to handle 100-133Mhz cpu buses and to do complex stuff as
writecombing.
Isn't the world wonderful:-)
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 39 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Nicholai Benalal):
Let me analize MorphOS..
This new OS has a native PPC kernel with the possibility to run native binaries and PowerUP binaries. WarpOS programs with emulation.
The context switches which occur when the 68k is active (and used) are solved by booting in 68k "mode" starting the resident "MorphOS loader" and reboot.
This MorphOS loader disables the 68k and starts the MorphOs kernel and a 68k emulator.
New situation: MorphOS comes with some MorphOS native counteparts of some amiga libraries. All MorphOS native Programs use these instead of the original WB ones making them PPC native. 68k programs run on the 68k emulator and use the 68k libraries. PowerUP programs run in native PowerPC mode and use the 68k libraries under the 68k emulator.
All the resources like AGA Paula etc are available on a a1200....these don't have to be emulated.
MorphOS on an Amiga1200:
-A PPC native OS with a build in 68k emulator.
-Capable of running MorphOS specific progs PPC native.
-Capable of running Amiga 68k progs..only difference the 68k is emulated now.
-Capable of running PowerUP progs... only drawback is that current PowerUP progs, don't use the MorphOS native libraries, but then again..no context switches like normal PowerUP.
Hardware of the Pegasos:
-No 68k (has to be emulated)
-No custom chips (have to be emulated aswell)
In other words..the complete amiga has to be emulated
Running classic Amiga progs. on Pegasos with MorphOS
-68k has to be emulated (build in)
-custom chips have to be emulated (This will surely come)
Running classic Amiga progs on a wintel box
-68k has to be emulated
-custom chips have to be emulated
Sollution UAE (or fellow) running on top of the OS (windows)
Difference between UAE and MorphOS/Pegasos
The Amiga emulator is hidden in MorphOS while UAE runs as a separate program.
Eyetech amigaONE:
Capable of using the amiga 1200 mainboard as a expansion.....only the 68k has to be emulated....
To summarize things:
MorphOS
-avoid context switches on current PPC systems by emulating the 68k
-has to emulate the complete amiga on a Pegasos
- differs with UAE because it hides it's emulation withing the OS.
But in the end it's just an emulation when you want to run classic apps on the Pegasos under MorphOS.
Back to your original question:
/*Such exspensive hardware without custom chipset to run a context switch/68k emulation sollution for the classic amiga :) It's one big emulation which sounds like UAE under a new name.....*/
<br>
Not meaning to be arrogant but you don't know what you are taling about, do you?
<br>
/Nicholai
OK, let me use a few more words for people who apparently need it.
Only operating system announced so far for the Pegasos:
-LinuxPPC
-MorphOS
Linux is not interesting for the average Amiga user, so MorphOS is the only "serious" option. (unless you want to run AmigaDE on top of linux ofcourse)
So there you have it: "Such exspensive hardware without custom chipset to run a context-switch/68k-emulation sollution for the classic amiga :) It's one big emulation which sounds like UAE under a new name....."
Oh and don't respond with...but there will be a bright future for MorphOS native progs....... :)
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 40 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Ralph Schmidt):
The world may be a little more wonderfull if you said what you are talking about?
I assume you talk about the limitations of the G-REX in combination with a 603e and not a completely new PPC designwith a serious CPU (G3/G4) as there are support chips for the PPC from IBM and motorola and others to handle 100Mhz FSB and 33Mhz/66Mhz PCI 32bit/64bit at full speed without any problem...? (OK the 132MB/s is theoretical, but surely a lot higher then 25MB/sec)
Be more specific...
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 41 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Amifan):
/*New situation: MorphOS comes with some MorphOS native counteparts of some amiga libraries. All MorphOS native Programs use these instead of the original WB ones making them PPC native. 68k programs run on the 68k emulator and use the 68k libraries. PowerUP programs run in native PowerPC mode and use the 68k libraries under the 68k emulator.*/
Nope, these old programs can also make use of the native replacements.
Even old software will be boosted by new native libraries. This is an important
point that you've missed. When native libraries (such as cybergraphics, exec, mui, and a lot of others) are available, the 68k libraries are never used.
/*Hardware of the Pegasos:
-No 68k (has to be emulated)
-No custom chips (have to be emulated aswell)
In other words..the complete amiga has to be emulated*/
You are missing the point again. Old system software depending on the native chips are replaced by hardware independent software. This way you don't need to emulate the old hardware. This is certainly a different approach than UAE. Well behaving software will continue to work and old hacks that poke directly into the hw the will stop working. This is not a problem for most people. Think of the rtg systems we currently have for amigaos...they don't emulate AGA either.
/*To summarize things:
MorphOS
-avoid context switches on current PPC systems by emulating the 68k
-has to emulate the complete amiga on a Pegasos
- differs with UAE because it hides it's emulation withing the OS.*/
To summerize this, you missed the main points as usual.
Friendly,
Nicholai
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 42 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Amifan):
Aha.....you mean a custom 100Mhz/133Mhz memorybus implementation?
That's why you confused me, I thought that you were talking about the G-REX....
Why would someone want to go for a custom memorycontroller implementation?
You can buy various PCI/MEMORY/AGP all-in-one buscontrollers....kinda useless I think....
The IBM and motorola ones are limited to 100Mhz memory bus (and no AGP?)AFAIK.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 43 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Nicholai Benalal):
Wel well...you're the master in giving fact a twist so they suit your view....
>Nope, these old programs can also make use of the native replacements.
>Even old software will be boosted by new native libraries. This is an >important
>point that you've missed. When native libraries (such as cybergraphics, exec, >mui, and a lot of others) are available, the 68k libraries are never used.
Duh... you think you're smart and then think that all other ppl are stupid or something?? Well....to show you that I understand what you're saying I mntion the various version of the MPEGA.library.... (Jesus..)
I'm talking about the system libraries (apart from exec), not custom libraries like MUI or cybergfx. BTW, if I remember well all counterpart libs have the .elf extension, those are not replacements....how do you imagine them to open the MorphOS libs? Force them?
>You are missing the point again. Old system software depending on the native >chips are replaced by hardware independent software. This way you don't need >to emulate the old hardware. This is certainly a different approach than UAE. >Well behaving software will continue to work and old hacks that poke directly >into the hw the will stop working. This is not a problem for most people. >Think of the rtg systems we currently have for amigaos...they don't emulate >AGA either.
Do I miss the point here like you want me to believe or are you talking bullshit (and you actually know it)...Well I guess the later...
Duh....oh man you shocked me....can I use hardware independant for instance gfx software called RTG software??? and do I have the possibility do a little mode promoting?? *DUH* *DUH* and a lot more *DUH*... Yes i mean this old (?? T-Zero) software which *REQUIRE* the AGA chipset.
UAE can do without emulating the hardware...there's a Picasso UAE gfx driver...they can provide AHI soundrivers if they wish..they can provide IO driver etc etc...but is this an Amiga or DRACO?
And about the need for AGA emulation.....a lot of ppl use monitor switches or a second monitor to display aga modes...but then again maybe not in your dreamworld
/*To summarize things:
MorphOS
-avoid context switches on current PPC systems by emulating the 68k
-has to emulate the complete amiga on a Pegasos
- differs with UAE because it hides it's emulation withing the OS.*/
>To summerize this, you missed the main points as usual.
To summarize your comment, it's based on your blind views on MorphOS (probaly because your a Beta tester). You mask the limitation and even worst, you acuse other ppl of missing the points with comments like "who need it anyway..." and "well behaved..."
But maybe you're right....MorphOS is not the same as UAE....it's UAE without the features like emulating the classic hardware which some ppl might consider important, but ofcourse not in your view.....
Friendly,
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 44 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Amifan):
Sure..that's a problem of the GREX and also of the 1200 AmigaOne
extension as both use programmable logic chips as its buscontrollers.
And btw..your "analysis" of MorphOS is wrong. There isn't just some
68k emulation started. There is a PPC exec started which then inits
all resident modules it finds...which can be ppc or 68k.
When tasks are created they are PPC tasks which can run 68k functions
with the help of a multithreaded emulation.
And this PPC exec isn't the *kernel* of the system. It just runs inside
an own 32bit addressspace the *real* microkernel gives to the amigaos
box.
It also doesn't need to emulate the whole hardware as we have all
low level drivers native anyway and can adjust them to new HW.
What must be emulated are the few direct HW accesses by Amiga software
which clean software shouldn't do anyway.
So this has nothing to do with UAE's approach and neither does it use
UAE's emulation.
All that was described several times so it should have been possible
to research these little facts before writing another one of your
random sympathic rants.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 45 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Amifan):
/*Duh... you think you're smart and then think that all other ppl are stupid or something?? Well....to show you that I understand what you're saying I mntion the various version of the MPEGA.library.... (Jesus..)*/
.
Ok sorry if I was rude but you actually annoy me sometimes :-)
Btw, I don't understand your point about mpega...
.
/*I'm talking about the system libraries (apart from exec), not custom libraries like MUI or cybergfx. BTW, if I remember well all counterpart libs have the .elf extension, those are not replacements....how do you imagine them to open the MorphOS libs? Force them?*/
.
System libraries and 3rd party libraries are no different on AmigaOS. They are the same thing so if something works
with 3rd party shared libraries it will also work with system libs. And you are actually right, the .elf extension is
there so MorphOS can identify a native library and redirect (force) it to be used instead of the 68k one.
You are clearly wrong in this case so try to accept it :-)
.
/*>You are missing the point again. Old system software depending on the native chips are replaced by hardware independent software. This way you don't need to emulate the old hardware. This is certainly a different approach than UAE. Well behaving software will continue to work and old hacks that poke directly into the hw the will stop working. This is not a problem for most people. Think of the rtg systems we currently have for amigaos...they don't emulate AGA either.
.
Do I miss the point here like you want me to believe or are you talking bullshit (and you actually know it)...Well I guess the later...
Duh....oh man you shocked me....can I use hardware independant for instance gfx software called RTG software??? and do I have the possibility do a little mode promoting?? *DUH* *DUH* and a lot more *DUH*... Yes i mean this old (?? T-Zero) software which *REQUIRE* the AGA chipset.
UAE can do without emulating the hardware...there's a Picasso UAE gfx driver...they can provide AHI soundrivers if they wish..they can provide IO driver etc etc...but is this an Amiga or DRACO?
.
And about the need for AGA emulation.....a lot of ppl use monitor switches or a second monitor to display aga modes...but then again maybe not in your dreamworld*/
.
Ok, can accept that compatibility to old software is really important to you. Maybe you run a lot of old games...
But I think almost everyone including Eyetech, Amiga Inc, Elbox and H&P can agree that hardware independence is
a good thing that we need to move towards in order to advance our platform.
This is *the* major advantage of MorphOS, not a weakness.
.
/*[..]it's based on your blind views on MorphOS (probaly because your a Beta tester). You mask the limitation and even worst, you acuse other ppl of missing the points with comments like "who need it anyway..." and "well behaved..."*/
.
It is mainly based on my experience using this system every day the last year and writing software for it.
.
Friendly,
.
Nicholai
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 46 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by nOw2 on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Amifan):
> Hardware of the Pegasos:
> -No 68k (has to be emulated)
> -No custom chips (have to be emulated aswell)
Very little of the custom chip hardware is needed nowadays. Get rid of the OS components which hit the hardware (abstract them), trap some things like int disabling and off you go.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 47 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Nicholai Benalal):
Nicholai should describe the ramlib stuff more. AmiFan just run MorphOS
and then delete an 68k library for which a .elf counterpart exists.
Now run a NORMAL 68k program that uses this library. What happens?
Yes the program will run fine. The ramlib Ralph wrote just FORCES
programs to load .elf libs and resources. And if you don;t believe
me just try it. I don't have any relation with the MorphOS team or
any other team but I did a lot of researchabout MorphOS.
As for the problems with the blizzard connector, I have NEVER had
any problems with it and I even have had the BVision in without
screwing it and neither any of my friends had any problems with it.
I had been using a friend's BVision for a while and I didn't have
any problems too. Dunno what could possibly be wrong with many Blizzards.
Also could you be a little more polite? Amifan if ANYONE tried to describe you
by your posts he would think that the only thing you can do is flamming.
You can prove otherwise. Please do it.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 48 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Jörg Fireden on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Amifan):
The Voodoo specs used to be available for download on 3dfx.com. I dunno if they are still, but there is nothing classified about these, everyone could download them.
Regards, Hans-Joerg.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 49 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Emmanuel Lesueur on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
"KAU" == "Kay Are Ulvestad" writes:
KAU> - Heh :-) I always thought I was annoyingly honest...really, I did
KAU> not omit any "if"'s for the cause of leading people to think that
KAU> anyproducts exist which don't.
This 'dishonest' was not intended for you, but for Amifan, who was using
this exact process against the G-Rex when I originally answered.
KAU> - > OTOH, I think bPlan's project has a chance. On the hardware
KAU> - > side, it seems simpler
KAU>
KAU> - *If* it is built and *if* it matches what is announced by today...
KAU> :-Þ
KAU> - See how easy it can be to forget those essential "if"'s - Cheap
KAU> point, I know, but I couldn't resist...
Hey, I did state that what you quoted was just my opinion, and
furthermore, the sentence above doesn't imply that Pegasos exists
today :-)
KAU> - I have a PPC board *now*. And I use PCI cards *now*. The only
KAU> difference between me and a G-Rex user, ignoring the fact that there
KAU> are no G-Rex users quite yet, is that in a few months/weeks, I can
KAU> hopefully unplug my BlizzardPPC for good, replacing it with a faster,
KAU> tidier solution.
Ok, that's a valid point against G-Rex. But 1) CSPPc users don't
have this option (yet?), and 2), if you plan to go the bPlan way,
you'll get a new motherboard anyway (if it is built :-)), so you
can either keep your old amiga+ppc card+grex or sell the whole
thing.
PCI Boards for A1200 are available now : Comment 50 of 53ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 07-Mar-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Emmanuel Lesueur):
> This 'dishonest' was not intended for you, but for Amifan, who was using
> this exact process against the G-Rex when I originally answered.
-
Ah, ok. I got you wrong then :-)
-
> Hey, I did state that what you quoted was just my opinion, and
> furthermore, the sentence above doesn't imply that Pegasos exists
> today :-)
-
Yeah, as mine was a pretty cheap point, it completely falls apart when the "dishonest" bit was not intended for me ;-) I really should be more critical of what I write sometimes. Especially at night-time :-Þ
-
> 2), if you plan to go the bPlan way,
> you'll get a new motherboard anyway (if it is built :-)), so you
> can either keep your old amiga+ppc card+grex or sell the whole
> thing.
-
I'll be seriously considering the bPlan solution when/if it arrives. Well, whatever
one might think about the different companies and products announced, I surely
am excited about the increase in hardware development activity recently. Seems
like there might be a future for our aging computers after all...
-
Kay
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