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[News] Explanations from Fleecy, part 3ANN.lu
Posted on 01-Apr-2001 13:11 GMT by Christian Kemp63 comments
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Fleecy writes: AmigaOS4.0 will be launched in the summer, with 4.2 and 4.5 coming out at six month intervals. OS5 will be late next year.

He adds: People have buried the Amiga more times than squirrels bury acorns, and you know what, it keeps on growing back. Beware the naysayers, for they have their own agendas.

In reply to a quote which says Ralph Schimdt (MorphOS) says there Amiga Inc has a lot of illusions...BPlan won`t run AmigaOS4...it will run MorphOS, he answers: Amiga Inc has an agreement with bPlan to build an AmigaOne. AmigaOne computers run Amiga Inc software. Whatever else is run on it is nothing to do with us, unless it infringes our copyrights or IP.

Finally, he says: I have spent hours a day trying to bring all the Amiga developers together but it seems there is just too much hatred. In the end there can only be one AmigaOS, and one Amiga Inc company moving it forwards. Amiga has retaken control, is working directly with many contractors and looks forwards to all working with us to make a better Amiga in the future..

Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 1 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin (152.163.206.209) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
"Ralph Schimdt (MorphOS) says that <sic> Amiga Inc has a lot of illusions...BPlan won`t run AmigaOS4...it will run MorphOS", he <Fleecy> answers: "Amiga Inc has an agreement with bPlan to build an AmigaOne. AmigaOne computers run Amiga Inc software. Whatever else is run on it is nothing to do with us, unless it infringes our copyrights or IP."
Nice to see Ralph taking it in his stride. It's a shame about all the hard work that was put into MorphOS, but this situation has been on the cards for a very long time.
MorphOS is dead, long live OS4.0!!!
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 2 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Laubzega (193.219.28.196) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Darrin):
Idiot, there is no OS 4.0. So, how can it "long live"?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 3 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Takemehomegrandma (213.141.65.200) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
Sorry to hear that the Amiga OS 4 only will be PPC native. Wouldn't it be better if it was all VP native? I mean, now when the whole OS is going to be ported to a different processor than the old 68k (must be a giant effort), why limit the OS to ONE processor family, when it virtually could target every processor family out there?
It can't be more difficult to port the OS to VP than to PPC. Neither of them has any similarities to the 68k, so the difficulties ought to be just the same for both of them, right?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 4 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Graham (62.7.74.76) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
I am looking forward to the well edited reports rather than the jumble at the moment.
I wonder how much of Amiga OS 4.0 will be based upon AROS? AROS is 75% complete, and with extra resources from Amiga etc, I can see it arriving before August in a mostly completed form.
Of course, it needs some updating still, interface wise, but that will happen I am sure.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 5 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin (152.163.206.187) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Laubzega):
How do you know you prick. Work for H&P do you?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 6 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin (64.12.103.171) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Graham):
It shouldn't be based on any AROS code as AROS was designed to provide a "Workbench like" environment on x86 chipsets. Also, the AROS team were not allowed any offical WB code to rewrite so everything had to be done from scratch - a hell of a task.
OS4.0 is an offical PPC OS that will allow it to port any parts of the old OS to PPC providing higher compatibility with classic RTG software.
It will be interesting if the AROS team can get official access to the WB code to port to x86. It would certainly make their life easier and may provide the ability for existing software to run.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 7 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Alan C (62.64.191.187) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Darrin):
Just what's needed, good old fashioned abuse.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 8 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad (129.241.129.203) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
Glad to see that Amiga are making some *firm* decisions for the direction of the
platform. Now it is just for the third parties to conform or perish. I'll go for
AmigaOS4PPC/DE software-wise, and hardware-wise, I'll go for whatever runs it
best/soonest/cheapest. It wasn't that easy before this weekend...
-
Kay
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 9 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin (64.12.103.171) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Alan C):
I know - I'm not proud of it, but it seemed appropriate at the time :)
At least I didn't have any trouble with my "K", "U", "C" and "F" keys as you pointed out to one guy in another discussion :)
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 10 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Graham (62.7.49.253) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Darrin):
No, AROS is as it says - the Amiga Replacement OS.
It is not targetted for x86 hardware, that just happens to be one of the architectures it runs on - it is well developed because lots of people have x86 hardware. It compiles for PPC and 68k as well.
AROS has had many man-years put into it - I don't know how many in total, but it is a lot more than Amiga can allocate to get an Amiga OS 4.0 in under a year, and that is assuming that they started over 6 months ago. Thus either Amige OS 4.0 will be a travesty of an OS, or they will use existing software to accellerate development.
OS3.9 has AROS code in it, IIRC. I don't know what code exactly, but it has it.
I hope that OS4 has a better version of the Toolbar/Iconbar/Taskbar widget thingy though - one a little more flexible - howabout small toolbar programs like CD players, clock, etc than can also be added, like panel applets in Gnome/KDE on Unix systems?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 11 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (193.237.227.186) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
OK, this isnt as bad as it first felt.
MorphOS I have just started looking at and I think its GREAT. I would happily use a MorphOS running on VP *nudge*.
Dave.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 12 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan (213.75.117.27) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Laubzega):
Well, there isn't a MorphOS either....just a work in progress beta demo.... Or can you point me at a sales point?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 13 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan (213.75.117.27) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Laubzega):
Well, there isn't a MorphOS either....just a work in progress beta demo.... Or can you point me at a sales point?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 14 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan (213.75.117.27) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Darrin):
I suppose you mean me?? :)
Just to quote a really good sentenses from a really great cartoon:
"You can't say fuck in this fucking school! Why the fuck not?? Fuck fuckidy fuck fuck fuck"
Answer that!! :)
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 15 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin (152.163.207.182) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Amifan):
Was that you on the Yahoo message board? I missed the name, but the "four letter accent" should have familiar :)
As far as I'm concerned anyone can swear if they are replying to a post containing the following words: Ralph, DCE, Schmidt, Phase5, MorphOS
:)
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 16 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Alan C (62.64.191.187) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Darrin):
We've got to stop meeting like this, but I'm glad you got your keyboard fixed :)
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 17 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Alan C (62.64.191.187) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Amifan):
Can you read as well as you write?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 18 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan (213.75.119.67) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Darrin):
No i' sorry, that wasn't me, i thought you ment the Mediator discussion when it was announced and Ralph felt the need to burn it down.
But i'm on the Mediator list too if you refer to that.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 19 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan (213.75.119.67) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Alan C):
I don't quite know what you mean by that....
But if I have to make a honest answer: Yes :o)
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 20 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan (213.75.119.67) on 31-Mar-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Alan C):
But i you did see that I was replying on post 9 and refferin to that "other person"?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 21 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt (217.1.86.23) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Darrin):
I actually said that MorphOS will run on the BPlan system.
I haven't mentioned AmigaOS(TM) 4.0/5.0...up to this point nobody
has seen an AmigaOS(TM) 4.0/DE working with/without AmigaHW(TM).
BPlan needs something for the release which satisfies most
of their amiga(TM) customers and this OS will be MorphOS, Linux
and hopefully also QNX.
BPlan doesn't need an OS which *may* run next year.
Furthermore we also asked Eyetech through several channels
if they want us to support their HW(get the HW specs).
We got no reply either for obvious reasons because they
have chosen "their" side of the fence.
Beyond that we were threatened legally in an email by
Fleecy Moss in february. That was a major mistake.
Not to mention certain "informations" to dealers by
their "Premium" Partners if they carry MorphOS they
won't be delivered anymore.
Unlike others we haven't threatened Amiga(TM) Inc. about
anything besides being a threat by having the product
they would like to have but can't control themselves.
We presented our product to them in December on the WOA.
They liked it and already announced to certain developers
that they want MorphOS as AmigaOS(TM) 4.0 in December/January.
This "decision" was overruled by the backdoor politics
of 2 companies a month later as they couldn't deal with
loosing their influence.
As we also develop the suited PPC HW we thought
it would be obvious for Amiga(TM) Inc. what would be the
ideal solution for this market.
This was obviously not understood and under this condition
i'm a bit surprised how somebody has the illusion that
they will be actively supported from us.
You don't threat somebody legally from which you wanna
have support from. That's common sense to me.
The whole situation is sad for the amiga(TM) users, developers
and the market itself.
We think we did all to avoid it as we *really* tried to reach
an agreement between November and February.
Too bad that failed when Amiga(TM) Inc. made a business decision
they think is "best" for "them".
We think it was an extremely bad decision for several
reasons...
o technical implementation
o time to market.
o developer acceptance
o business *reality*.
When Amiga(TM) Inc. says that we decline to "join" them
with 4.0/5.0 projects they silently ignore the real issues
here.
Such a sentence means nothing without the meaning of "join"
to do "what" under "which" conditions.
What "plan" Mr. Moss presented us end februar to get us "involved"
was a technical joke. It would have resulted into abandoning our
working framework for "their" project.
Port AmigaOS(TM)/MorphOS OS modules to their chosen WarpOS base
which wouldn't have been suited at all for this design. Then we
should help them writing drivers and all that on somebody else
financing but not them.
And the final issue was that they then own the result.
That basicly sums up what was presented to us.
Sounds like a Timothy Rue conspiracy plot...doesn't it ?:-)
---cut
AROS and MorphOS already agreed on a mutual partnership
some weeks ago.
Further SW and HW announcements will follow soon.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 22 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by koehler (192.12.78.2) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Hmmm, shades of Microsoft if you ask me.............
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 23 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Kevin (158.252.171.207) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
What I don't get is:
If they are planning on releasing 4.0, 4.2, 4.4, etc. it regular 6 month intervals (or was that six year intervals?), WHY ON EARTH would anyone spend more than the value of a loaf of bread on any of them?
What I mean is, in OS timelines, it's nothing to use an OS for 2-5 years without a hint of upgrade need. Look as MacOS 8 for example. A common thought will probably be: "If I know a better version is coming in six months, I'm sure not buying what's out now..."
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 24 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Mee (192.12.78.2) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Gee, how do you think Bill forgot to mention that we'd need to buy all new hw to use 4.0 back when 3.9 was released?
First "Amiga doesn't do hw"
Second, "We'll do 4.0 if 3.9 sales hit 50k"
Third, "We envision a long life for the Classic OS from 4.x - 5.x, etc, but, you need to buy proprietary hw from only our venders............."
Betcha $10 a lot of people are now wishing they'd brought their ky to the show....
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 25 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (194.196.110.16) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Mee):
ky?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 26 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by selco (217.1.9.48) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Ralph Schmidt):
Hello Ralph,
keep on working on Morphos. It is already great and I think Morphos is the only real alternative we have. I wish you and the whole Morphos team all the best!
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 27 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (212.206.177.53) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Ralph Schmidt):
Watch the sarcastic (TM) behind every "amiga". Anyway....this "explanations sounds nice, but it's all about...erm...yes AmigaInc. We do want to support you but only with one option...we develop MorphOS and you'll provide the sales name "AmigaOS 4.0" I don't think that any compagny could accept this from a potential "partner".
>Port AmigaOS(TM)/MorphOS OS modules to their chosen WarpOS base
>which wouldn't have been suited at all for this design.
Here we go again...It WarpOS already...some ppl never learn....why don't you just admit that it's all about WarpOS and not about 2 compagnies doing "backdoor" politics.......
If there was a reason to go for MorphOS, then it was the lack of a PPC OS. Well, there's now an official PPC Amiga OS announced based on the real AmigaOS sourcecode, that makes MorphOS obsolete before it's even released...Don't make a complete joke of yourself and start cooperating, sometimes it's better to admit and move on......
(I'm awaiting flames of blind Ralph/MorphOS followers) :)
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 28 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Kojak (212.120.104.113) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Ralph Schmidt):
"The whole situation is sad for the Amiga(TM) users..."
Well, you got that right. This sucks big time! :(...
Amiga Inc., Elbox, bplan, Anti Gravity, DCE, any more contestants for this great Amiga circus or should I say Cirque du Amiga?..LOL! ;)...
At least the Eyetech AmigaOne 1200 looks pretty cool with 6xPCI and 1 AGP, but the big question is: does it work? If yes, good job, please show it to us :)...
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 29 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan (212.253.3.14) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Hi
I think this war should end here...Thick borders were drawn yesterday...
Let the user decide...The stronger side with more applications and support will win...It is the law of the nature...
It is all over..it is too late..There is no turning back now...
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 30 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by tlo-sm (62.122.17.43) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Kojak):
Morphos is a reality...is good and is no ZiCo! whot is zico!?!?!!
How much amiga's users buy an amigaone?
I have a mediator I don't wont trash it !
If i don't buy an amigaone I can't use AmigaOs 4.0
why amigaos 4.0 can't run on my Amiga4000&233PPC??
like LinuxPPC or morphos ... for my amiga the only way is Morphos!
Good job Ralph & please in the future support Elbox solutions
i think many Amiga's mediator users will Buy morphos
ps:sorry for my English :P
Bye
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 31 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Bertrand PRESLES (193.251.54.12) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Hello,
Ralph, i just want to commment a thing that you said:
"What "plan" Mr. Moss presented us end februar to get us "involved"
was a technical joke. It would have resulted into abandoning our
working framework for "their" project.
Port AmigaOS(TM)/MorphOS OS modules to their chosen WarpOS base
which wouldn't have been suited at all for this design. Then we
should help them writing drivers and all that on somebody else
financing but not them.
And the final issue was that they then own the result. "
Of course you would have to abandon you working framework!
AmigaOS 4.x should be the result of a cooperation work and not only MorphOS!
And so of course you would have to port MorphOS modules to the chosen AmigaOS 4.x design.
And of course you can give your ideas on the design if you want, but since AmigaOS 4.x is
an Amiga Inc managed product, the last word will be from Amiga Inc.
If you are afraid by the eventuallity that H&P take the control of the operations,
just ask Amiga Inc to include a paragraph on the contracts that specify that any participants on
the AmigaOS development will have the same rights and will be considered as equal for Amiga Inc.
No one will and can take the control.
But it's an illusion to believe that you'll be able to make Amiga Inc accept all you ideas, first
because they have their own ideas and second because your ideas are NOT all good! You are not GOD!
When i read all your comments on mailling lists, IRC or ANN, i arrive to the conclusion that you want AmigaOS 4.x to be MorphOS.
But wake up! It's IMPOSSIBLE! Because of the nature of the humanity.
That's all :) I expect that this make you thinking a lot more on the subject.
Bye
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 32 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Andy (212.250.100.112) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (tlo-sm):
>Morphos is a reality...is good and is no ZiCo! whot is zico!?!?!!
>How much amiga's users buy an amigaone?
>I have a mediator I don't wont trash it !
>If i don't buy an amigaone I can't use AmigaOs 4.0
MorphOS won't support anything to do with Mediator, becuase they don't like them
Ralph is complaining about amiga blocking out all others when this was HIS plan anyway. MorphOS has made "back door" business decisions in the past (Why won't they support anything other than DCE/Bplan (Both basically Phase 5) in the market place?
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 33 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Andy (212.250.100.122) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Ralph Schmidt):
Ralph you are a tit.
>I actually said that MorphOS will run on the BPlan system.
>I haven't mentioned AmigaOS(TM) 4.0/5.0...up to this point nobody
>has seen an AmigaOS(TM) 4.0/DE working with/without AmigaHW(TM).
>BPlan needs something for the release which satisfies most
>of their amiga(TM) customers and this OS will be MorphOS, Linux
>and hopefully also QNX.
>BPlan doesn't need an OS which *may* run next year.
As if you'd allow other OSes on YOUR system?
>Furthermore we also asked Eyetech through several channels
>if they want us to support their HW(get the HW specs).
>We got no reply either for obvious reasons because they
>have chosen "their" side of the fence.
Maybe they thought your OS was cack? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact they made a deal with Amiga a LONG TIME AGO?
You already have decided to make a split in the community, who gives a shit about fences when it's solutions people want.
It's people like you who destroyed the market, who wants to be involved with so much bitching
>Beyond that we were threatened legally in an email by
>Fleecy Moss in february. That was a major mistake.
>Not to mention certain "informations" to dealers by
>their "Premium" Partners if they carry MorphOS they
>won't be delivered anymore.
Maybe he threatened you becuase you were going to do something illeagal?
Can you prove these allegations?
>Unlike others we haven't threatened Amiga(TM) Inc. about
>anything besides being a threat by having the product
>they would like to have but can't control themselves.
Bollocks, you haven't ever wanted to play fair. I can't remeber a time when after some major event (Which didn't involve you) you haven't bitched an whinged about it.
>We presented our product to them in December on the WOA.
>They liked it and already announced to certain developers
>that they want MorphOS as AmigaOS(TM) 4.0 in December/January.
>This "decision" was overruled by the backdoor politics
>of 2 companies a month later as they couldn't deal with
>loosing their influence.
Why do you mince words? come on say it. If it is true then you have proof, maybe they didn't like you attitude and decided that it would be better to look elsewhere
>As we also develop the suited PPC HW we thought
>it would be obvious for Amiga(TM) Inc. what would be the
>ideal solution for this market.
>This was obviously not understood and under this condition
>i'm a bit surprised how somebody has the illusion that
>they will be actively supported from us.
>You don't threat somebody legally from which you wanna
>have support from. That's common sense to me.
You threaten them if they attempt to do something wrong. Lets face it you've wanted a monopoly of the Amiga market for quite some time. You want people to use YOUR solutions, choice isn't in your game plan
>The whole situation is sad for the amiga(TM) users, developers
>and the market itself.
>We think we did all to avoid it as we *really* tried to reach
>an agreement between November and February.
>Too bad that failed when Amiga(TM) Inc. made a business decision
>they think is "best" for "them".
>We think it was an extremely bad decision for several
>reasons...
>o technical implementation
>o time to market.
>o developer acceptance
>o business *reality*.
And for MorphOS? How about
o Crippled to old hardware
o No outside investment
o business *reality*
o developer acceptance
o The fact that YOU work on it, and you are arrogant, narrowminded, meglomaniacal...........in fact that was why I went from being VERY exicted about morphOS to not wanting to have anything to do with it. I read what you write on ANN shortly after finding out about MorphOS.
>When Amiga(TM) Inc. says that we decline to "join" them
>with 4.0/5.0 projects they silently ignore the real issues
>here.
>Such a sentence means nothing without the meaning of "join"
>to do "what" under "which" conditions.
>What "plan" Mr. Moss presented us end februar to get us "involved"
>was a technical joke. It would have resulted into abandoning our
>working framework for "their" project.
>Port AmigaOS(TM)/MorphOS OS modules to their chosen WarpOS base
>which wouldn't have been suited at all for this design. Then we
>should help them writing drivers and all that on somebody else
>financing but not them.
>And the final issue was that they then own the result.
>That basicly sums up what was presented to us.
>Sounds like a Timothy Rue conspiracy plot...doesn't it ?:-)
Maybe you just wanted to run the show? I cannot explain how much you and certain other people in your little community annoy me. You can take this personally if you want becuase I don't care.
>AROS and MorphOS already agreed on a mutual partnership
>some weeks ago.
>Further SW and HW announcements will follow soon.
How long before they leave you becuase you try to take over the show?
MorphOS could have been great, if you hadn't been such a pratt and decided to use it to fight your little pathetic battles. Oh and before you come out with more conspiricy crap, I haven't supported Amiga Inc. up until this point. This is the first good announcement they've made. I will be buying an AONE as soon as I can. I'm not wasting my money on DCE, Phase5, You or whoever.
--Andy
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 34 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt (62.225.237.177) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Andy):
Sigh...we support the Elbox Mediator in a way that we support all
other zorro cards. We *WON'T* support bank switching because it's
dead ugly, a hack and with mmu tricks it completely sucks with a
hash table mmu like PPC. I want MorphOS to be as clean as possible.
We *don't* *yet* support any PPC accelerator from Elbox because
there is none yet, neither do we know the specs of something we
haven't seen yet. Does anybody actually know if such a ppc card
would work in existing mediators ?...would it be able to access the
1200 addressspace ?...does it get amiga interrupts ?...does it have
an interrupt controller ?
We all don't know that....but we have people here that because some
company announced something 6 months ago(which should have been released
in November..do you remember ?) that wanna get support for a *vapor*
product today. Ridiculous, don't you think.
Furthermore we have a serious resource problem...we focus at the
moment to make MorphOS completely HW dependent and rewriting all
the remaining 68k kickstart modules.
Look..i could also also announce everywhere that we support that
and this and those...all people are happy which believe into empty
PR phrases but i wouldn't be happy because we would have to clone
our brains and hands 10 times or just don't do anything but let
others "believe" for something which won't happen in a realistic
time frame.
*When* MorphOS runs on the BPlan system it is HW independent and
the biggest hurdle is managed...*then* we can think about supporting
other HW. That's something which makes sense and is honest.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 35 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom (193.11.248.159) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Bertrand PRESLES):
Of course AmigaInc can propose any solution they like, but how could
they expect the MorphOS team to "cooperate" if there's nothing in for
them?
Since there was no agreement, there are only two ways. Either live and
let live, or try to fight the alternatives by bullying developers and
retailers to follow the One True Path only.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 36 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt (62.225.237.177) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
Mr. Annonymous again...
>Watch the sarcastic (TM) behind every "amiga". Anyway....this "explanations sounds nice, but it's
> all about...erm...yes AmigaInc. We do want to support you but only with one option...we develop
> MorphOS and you'll provide the sales name "AmigaOS 4.0" I don't think that any compagny could
> accept this from a potential "partner".
We suggested Amiga(TM) Inc. in December a partnership about OS
development. At the time Amiga Inc had no public intentions
to do a PPC AmigaOS(TM). We could have done all that..actually
we already *did* it if you paid attention.
Then Fleecy presented us his DE/HostOS plan and we had nothing
against a mutual cooperation.
But we got no concrete explaination what Mr. Moss wanted to do
and how they wanna approach the licence situation.
> >Port AmigaOS(TM)/MorphOS OS modules to their chosen WarpOS base
> >which wouldn't have been suited at all for this design.
> Here we go again...It WarpOS already...some ppl never learn....why don't you just admit that it's all
> about WarpOS and not about 2 compagnies doing "backdoor" politics.......
Ahh..really ?:-) Several people which dealed with Amiga Inc. got exactly
that impression when the December/January decision was *changed* after
a sudden visit of Mr. Haage in the UK to meet Mr. Moss(TM:-).
And Amiga Inc. made clear to us that they chose WarpUP as their base for
OS 4.0. With that decision it is pointless to want us to port stuff to
this *unproven* base in the context of our mixed mode AmigaOS/multithreaded
emulation design.
I also discussed the issue with one of the major forces behind 3.5 and
he couldn't understand the whole mess anymore either.
If they decide for warpos because they got it for free from H&P for the
deal of developing OS 4.0 basement...then they should do it that way but
not asking to integrate alien technology into such a braindead concept.
> If there was a reason to go for MorphOS, then it was the lack of a PPC OS. Well,
>there's now an official PPC Amiga OS announced based on the real AmigaOS sourcecode, that makes MorphOS
"announced" != exists.
> obsolete before it's even released...Don't make a complete joke of yourself and start cooperating,
> sometimes it's better to admit and move on......
Fine that you declare something obsolete against some product which
does not yet exist, when it exist is months/if not years behind/
should reach MorphOS state *next* year, misses key software parts
and well has only an announced not "yet" working HW base which may
sell up to 500-1000 units if they are lucky in this market.
And haven't we learned by now that no copyright holder survived more
than 1.5-2 years. Has anybody here ever considered such an option ?
It was a serious concern of myself if they wanna own our MorphOS
technology and suddenly go bancrupt again the whole amiga market
would be blocked again.
BTW. I don't need no blind followers...people should look at the
MorphOS product *closely*(which means trying and looking at
its documented design structure) and then make an educated
choice. I want no church of Amiga(TM) to control a market.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 37 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin (152.163.206.199) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Andy):
Dear Andy,
I couldn't have put it better. Thank you for saving me the effort of having to reply to Ralph's sour grapes.
The owners of Amiga Inc have mortgaged their lives and families to bring us the best option for the future and Ralph's sad attempts to hi-jack their copyrights for free is sad. I'm sure if legal action was threatened then it was in defence of these copyrights and I'm positive that any attempts to undermine these copyright in future will result in a major lawsuit. I would personally be very carefull when (if) you release MorphOS as I'm sure it could be a very expensive mistake.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 38 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt (62.225.237.177) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Andy):
Thanks Andy...
Who is the arrogant here ?
The one who addresses things openly here and takes the flak from
numberous people or the ones which don't and give a flying fuck
what amiga people here and elsewhere think and write and simply
do their thing for their profit and control.
Do you think Amiga Inc. doesn't wanna be in full control...sure
they want...do you think H&P doesn't wanna be in full control ?
sure they want.
I wanna be in control for the MorphOS lowlevel base so that something
isn't screwed up in a gobal scope but design things are discussed between
its developers.
I *don't* wanna be in control for things I'm no expert about like 3D and
GUI and i *don't* need to be supervising things i know others are capable
to do the job....can you imagine that i can deligate ?
Do you think i sit there as the egomanic spider and pull the strings of
people working on MorphOS ? I don't...they know what they do and they
do it on free will because they like what they do.
If i would be the kind of guy you obviously think i am i would
have left the amiga market 10 years ago, wouldn't have spent
xxxxx hours on developing amiga sw for the small financial aid
it had given me.
Neither would i have the respect of several old class key developers
in the amiga scene.
Maybe ask these people about the respect they give certain other
people.
Beyond that..why do you think i have interest to take over AROS ?
The cooperation with Aaron Digualla and others from the AROS team
will be a mutal cooperation which will benefit both....and you can
be sure that i ain't and won't influence any AROS decisions...it's
their project and they define their rules as we define ours.
Plain and simple.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 39 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt (62.225.237.177) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Darrin):
Ahh Darrin...you think others haven't spent mortgages and more than
a decade on something in that market ? Oh..contraire.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 40 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Bertrand PRESLES (194.206.159.223) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Ralph Schmidt):
Hello again,
Ralph, just for your french culture, it's not: "Oh contraire" but "Au contraire" ;-)
Bye
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 41 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin (64.12.101.167) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Ralph Schmidt):
That's not the point - we've all spent money on the Amiga, but it's Amiga Inc who purchased the rights to fly the true Amiga flag and dictate the direction for the future.
I said before (long time ago) that MorphOS would be backed if it became the oficial OS4, but as that's not the case then too bad. It's a shame, but too bad.
And before you start ranting on again about how you know what's best for the Amiga market and that you know what the Amiga community wants then I'll redirect your attention to the ANN poll which shows over three quarters of the visitors are behind Amiga Inc, some are unsure and only 11% are against it. 11%!!! - thats 1 in 10. How many of these are freeloaders who won't pay for your product? How many of these people use a Mediator and although they'd like MorphOS they won't get it due to your differences with Elbox, how many of these people just want a pure DE solution and don't want MorphOS either (Is that MorphOS(TM)?) and how many just don't understand the question? It's probably fairer to say that your expected Market Share if you go alone is about 1 in 10000. So, build your empire, King Ralph, and enjoy it while you can.
Alternatively, you could work on an OS4+ compatible product and rejoin the band waggon. You're either for Amiga Inc or against them, and if you're against them then you're just part of the problem.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 42 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Andy (212.250.100.122) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Ralph Schmidt):
It is quite clearly you who is arrogant.
Put it this way, every time there is a huge flame war here, you're somewhere in the middle of it. You seem to enjoy going against others, picking fights with people.
As for your previous comments about Mediator I thought that "MorphOS will not support Mediator becuase we think that it won't sell well"
But we welcome *DCE* boards. You go on about backdoor dealings when you band together in your little group, slagging off everyone else. You won't win any customers with the attitude.
When I first started to hear about MorphOS I *really* wanted to get invovled, I'm not an amazing programmer or anything, but I was willing to do any monkey work that may have been needed (Docs, Icons, graphics etc.). Then I read your postings here on ANN, and I thought "Why the hell would I want to deal with this guy? What an arrogant prat!" And so I resigned to the fact that I'd probably just dump my amiga in favour of a PC, and leave it as it is. I wasn't too interested in the DE becuase I didn't think that it would threaten Windows. Now I have the chance to go for the upgrade I've been after since I first got my A1200 in 1998.
Let the users decide what they want.
--Andy
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 43 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan (212.253.3.14) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
It is a big shame that Ralph Schimdt personal vendetta with S.Hausser and J.Haage brought us here...:(
Amiga users paid the cost of P5's mistake when PowerUP software is being developed...They should have NDAs for developers, but they didn't..P5 didn't sue anybody...That is P5's fault...But it is too late..You can't turn back the clock...
One person can't change the world...
Let the user decide...
Your answer to various anonymoyus people here is harming MorphOS...
The user will decide when
BPlan Pegaos is shipped with
MorphOS + CGX5 + MUI + AROS Extras + AHI 5.5
and AmigaOne is shipped with
AmigaOS4 + Picasso2001 + AmigaDE Extras
Please go to court if you have problems with Haage & Partner...
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 44 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt (62.225.237.177) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Bertrand PRESLES):
Oops..sorry:-)
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 45 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt (62.225.237.177) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Andy):
Andy..please also remember what i said *completely*
about the mediator ppc at *that* time.
to sum up the list afair
o lack of resources
o no existing specs==don't know if it would be possible
o not enough sales
o work payment very unlikely..so all on our own risk.
o and very important...the distance of about 1000+ km distance
which is impossible to *debug* somebody's *hw* to get our
thing running. I have done hw/sw debugging for more than
10 years now and this does not work over distance.
We needed about 2.5 months *hw/sw* debugging at Phase5 to
get the CyberstormPPC fully running.
As i said..when MorphOS runs on the bplan board==is hw independent
there is a chance to support other HW and more refine our HAL so
that maybe *others* can adapt the HAL to their HW.
Come on folks...this is not some black&white thing.
So please...next time you wanna toast me use the full content and
not only pick one sentence to set it into the kind of angle you
prefer.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 46 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan (213.75.119.22) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Ralph Schmidt):
Toast you uh? Wel...i've seen Hannibal....:)
Anyway...you'll still need developer support for your OS, not a couple of hobby coders porting MUI or other apps...
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 47 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by A3K (24.116.27.210) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
My take on the situation for what it's worth...
I had a rather lengthy discussion with Ralph in #Amiga about a year ago. Quite frankly he really pi$$ed me off. He came across to me as arrogant and condescending, and made some comments regarding selling that really bothered me. Basically he told me that consumers were pain's in the arse and that he had no patience with them. I am the general manager of a multimillion dollar retail company, and if I know nothing else, I know sales and customer relations. The attitude that Ralph presented to me was that customers are idiots. I commented that sometimes you just have to hold your tongue and tolerate them with a smile and a nod, it order to sell your product; Ralph disagreed.
Appearantly, Ralph will not suffer fools, even to advance his ideas. I personally cannot stand brown nosing, but the reality is that it is necessity in some instances. I don't mean brown nosing higher ups, but rather the fools. Those fools are your customer base, if you understand my point. I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Schmidt's abilities but from a PR stance, if he worked for me he would be off limits to the public. His general attitude has often made my wonder what kind of support I would get from any commercial product of his that I bought. Most people don't like to feel ignorant, and being spoked to in a condescending manner when you ask a question has that effect.
That being said, recent comments from him (other than responses to AmigaOS4.x) carry a lighter tone. I have given thought to trying MorphOS, and he *seems* to genuinely want people to try it. I don't really see it as much of a competition for Amiga OS4.x. While MorphOS is supposed to support bPlan hardware, I think it's main market will be users of P5/DCE accelerators. I think he should give strong consideration to adding Mediator and Promethius users to that list, when their PPC accelerators come to market.
Amiga OS4.x will be more of a true migration path, rather than just replacement OS. As I understand it, the idea is that when OS5.0 is released, they will integrate Amiga DE into the OS, giving it full access to all content including Java apps etc. As an OS with a long term opportunity for success, I think Amiga OS4.x+ will be more successful. It will be nice to once again have 10 second boot time, with no warm resets for patches etc.
Do not underestimate name recognition. Many people are already familiar with the Amiga name, and more will become familiar with it as the handheld market expands. If I am correct, Amiga is positioning themselves for a full bore release of OS5.0 as a next generation, cross platform OS, at about the time their PDA stuff gets a foothold.
As for commentary about the time span required to port the OS et al, and how far behind Amiga is in that regard, don't believe it. If I remember my Amiga history correctly, the Amiga PPC port was almost completed by H&P during the Gateway ownership period, when the plug was pulled. With the assistance of H&P, Picasso96 and Hyperion crews, I think summer release is realistic. If they were starting from scratch I wouldn't believe it.
The last point I want to make is that Amiga users bitch too much.
Everyone bitched about the MCC because it wasn't Amiga.
AmigaDE isn't Amiga...
Well... stop bitching. A custom PPC board (even if it uses AGP and PCI cards) that connects up to an A1200 for access to custom chips and runs an updated PPC port of OS3.x, sure as hell is an Amiga. You get your compatibility (probably can even play Shadow of the Beast) and you get your modern Hardware. You get your OS and you get your support.
Now they need our support.
I wish MorphOS much success (I plan on trying it myself), and I think with the installed base of DCE PPPC users and the soon to be Shark and Promethius PPC users they have a future. I just don't see their future being on new systems.
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 48 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt (62.225.237.177) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (A3K):
A3k...how should i have annoyed you ? We once had a discussion
about prices in the amiga market and where these were rooted.
*I* am not responsible for the conditions which lead to these
prices which pissed you off about. I only tried to explain
them to you how the dealers/companies may *think* which set
them.
This was a normal argument from my side...no name calling and
no swearing.
Saturday or Sunday i think you showed up again and we maybe
exchanged 2 or 3 msgs on irc...nothing earthshaking.
But I can't see how how this could lead to this little "nice"
text from you. There must be this virus to send Laire Love Letters
on ann lately to weight against the love letters others send Amiga
Inc. on irc the weekend.
If you or others wanna support Amiga Inc...fine...that's your free
decision:-)
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 49 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin (152.163.206.197) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Ralph Schmidt):
Dear Ralph
Perhaps this is just a case of you not understanding how you come across to others. It's fine to have a "never suffer fools gladly" attitude in private, but when you are trying to sell a product then personality is everything. Now, assuming that you can't "pretend" to have a sunny disposition in front of others, you should do what other proffessionals do and that is lock yourself in your office and pay someone to be your Public Relations Officer.
The sad part is that so many people refuse to believe they aren't liked or don't care and thus never do anything about it - that's fine if you're a traffic cop. Anyone ever teach you sales skill of "the handover"? This is where you spend time trying to make the "sale", but despite your best efforts you're getting nowhere. Rather than let the customer walk you just hand it over to someone else who in seconds closes the deal. Never take it personally - perhaps the "target" just didn't like the tie you were wearing that day. But what it requires is the original salesman being secure in himself to realise that he needs help... and you need help.
Anyway, this is like trying to explain colour to a blind man.
Regards,
Daz
Explanations from Fleecy, part 3 : Comment 50 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt (62.225.237.177) on 01-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Darrin):
Darrin...i fully understood.
So you prefer somebody who fools you instead of
hearing the real deal to feel warm and comfortable ?
I can fully understand that i'm plain annoying by
saying things people don't wanna hear because they
hurt their view of the world.
It's always easier to shoot at the messenger when
you don't like the content of the message.
I'm probably a horrible salesman but I prefer to be
straight to the point in my life if possible.
And i think others should too.
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