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[Rant] AmiganANN.lu
Posted on 04-Apr-2001 12:09 GMT by Christian Kemp21 comments
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m0ns00n wrote: I found a page with a PPC motherboard that will fit the zico specs I think. It even mentions AmigaOS. I think it is odd myself, but even though Amiga Inc. is presenting the AmigaONE as the only near alternative, perhaps also presenting the bPlan one, they haven't mentioned the myriad of other PPC mainboards out there. What will they do? The above utl is for one PPC mainboard. I haven't checked if it will be out soon, or if they are doing this or that in thinking about AmigaOS 4/AmigaDE. But let's check if there are some PPC products out NOW that meets the zico specs. Why buy an AmigaONE if there are already cheap PPC mainboards on the market that has 6 PCI, AGP, etc etc as the zico demands.
Amigan : Comment 1 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Because the RioRed was supposed to be out in 99 then in 2000, then ...
There were a lot of PPC mainboard announced after the release of the IBM CHRP documents. But as I know none of them ever shipped :(
AmigaOne is not Eyetech only: it can be Bplan, ELBOX ...
Whe should not say AmigaOne but Eyetech AmigaOne 1200, Blan Amigaone Pegasos ...
Amigan : Comment 2 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Christophe Decanini):
The point I'm trying to make is:
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If we have to wait for a new PPC hw from Amiga related firms, then what would the general market impact be? Secound to none. And furthermore, Eyetech are marketing their AmigaOne as a C= Amiga/Escom Amiga addon. If they were to release it in a tower unit, as a complete self sufficient computer system, then I would be more interested. I am not willing to upgrade my Amiga anymore, as many of its components are failing (the IDE bus, the SCSI module on my Cyberstorm 060 MKI, my PSU), and I want a new computer. Also, why can't I buy an Apple computer to run OS4 on? Etc. I know it is all about companies not releasing their specifications to other competing camps, but why do we still hang in need from our old hardware? Soon, 2002 will drop on this planet, and we need new computers to run our software. The AROS crew have been very prophetic, seeing that a "next gen Amiga OS" needs to be very portable. They just didn't care if Amiga said a PPC/x86 native version of AmigaOS was impossible. They stepped forward and did one. This is a smash in the face of Amiga, who are now opting for a strange PPC plan where the market is even smaller than the current Amiga HW market (which actually has heaps of software and 3rd parties HW).
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Their decision to make a version 4.0, 4.2, 4.x and 5.x is a great one, and one that I would make myself. The people who are hailing the Amiga DE standalone OS/OE just doesn't get that making a completely new OS is just as meaningless to Amiga users as making a new Linux distro! Or a new TAO distro for that matter. Amiga DE is not an Amiga platform, and this is a definite fact. AmigaOS is the only OS that has anything to do with Amiga, as it is the origin which must be upgraded. It is just like if Windows 10.x would be a new system based on lets say, Acorn, or whatever. But what I disagree in is that it will run on PPC only. What about all the x86 computers out there? Do I have to continue purchasing Amiga HW through mail order? Well, that is just not an option, as it will get NO new users. Hope you catch my point.
Amigan : Comment 3 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Muffin on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (m0ns00n):
>>And furthermore, Eyetech are marketing their AmigaOne as a C= Amiga/Escom Amiga addon.
>>If they were to release it in a tower unit, as a complete self sufficient computer system,
>>then I would be more interested. I am not willing to upgrade my Amiga anymore,
>>as many of its components are failing (the IDE bus, the SCSI module on my Cyberstorm 060 MKI, my PSU),
>>and I want a new computer.
Well Eyetech's board is not an addon to your A1200/4000, it's the A1200/4000 that is an addon to
AmigaONE, so don't worry about your old Amiga, AmigaONE will still run without An A1200/4000.
I think they will sell it in a complet tower system.
Amigan : Comment 4 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Muffin):
I KNOW that it is not an addon, but it IS marketed, or communicated as such, and either way, why not just say: "Here we have a new computer system that runs AmigaOS 4 or PPc Linux."? The point I am trying to make is that Amiga, still, runs away from Intel architecture, the platform that is dominating everywhere. The fact that Haage&Partner, which is a semi-amateur team of coders, IMHO and don't get me wrong, is continuing the development, is not for the better. Many people on the AROS list are quite sceptic about these new Amiga plans. x86 is an essential platform. Make AmigaOS 4, let people buy it online and download an ISO or something. Let them install the OS on their computers, 5 mins later, they are Amiga users, new Amiga users, like what happened with BeOS and QNX. 900 000 users have QNX now. The AROS people would be a great help into making that dream a reality!
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Amiga is talking about making a revolution. Forget it. The culture has changed. If the new hw is not formed as a perverse phallos with tentacles, nobody will be upset by anything new from Amiga Inc or any other Inc.
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Amiga is saying they are listening to the community. What good is listening if they can't confirm what they are abstracting? What do we know about what they think we are thinking? See? We can't hear them, so how can we know what they are doing? Also, why can't they go into a public Q&A with AROS. Aros already boots on intel, and is, as a matter of fact, usable! It is even possible to write apps for this platform, NOW, and run it on a native disk for x86 -> you'd feel quite at home with AROS, I've tried it, and my nostalgy alarm device just exploded. Amiga are ignoring it. OS3.9 is moving closer and closer away from AmigaOS, with it's strange Windows installer clone, the rather orphan ReAction, which is a total blow in the dark when we already have Classact GUIs, MUI, BGUI etcetc. Everyone should be able to see this development going out of hand. Aros has decided to build an OS3.1 like OS for x86. They are almost there. It would be a question of months when we could se a full AmigaOS "4" on x86 if Amiga embraced AROS. Haage&Partner should get involved with them too, and Hyperion, etc.
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Now we have a problem with prestige. It is really no question of what works, but about keeping the face. H&P will perhaps never put their projects aside for AROS. They want THEIR project made a standard. MorphOS people want THEIR alternative. Amiga want everybody to be good christians and love each other and unite, think big and ambigious. The AROS crew do not want to set a standard, but IMO, they have the better alternative, as they are the ones supporting virtually any platform in question, as long as they get the manpower, they have a portable kernel and a portable OS.
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I could go on, and I will, but I'll wait for comments on this one.
Amigan : Comment 5 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (m0ns00n):
>what would the general market impact be?
Reviving Amiga manufacturers, Amiga dealers, Amiga users. Make Amiga classic profitable for AmigaInc.
>if they were to release it in a tower unit, as a complete self sufficient >computer system, then I would be more interested
They will be of course. I'am sure the linuxppc guys would love it. But also with AmigaOS 4.2 you won't need your Amiga motherboard anymore.
>I am not willing to upgrade my Amiga anymore, as many of its components are >failing (the IDE bus, the SCSI module on my Cyberstorm 060 MKI, my PSU), and I >want a new computer
The Amigaone is NOT an upgrade. It is a new motherboard with every functionnality (Except AGA that he gets through the Amiga motherboard).
>Also, why can't I buy an Apple computer to run OS4
Because Apple keep secret everything.
>a "next gen Amiga OS" needs to be very portable
AmigaDE is the next gen Amiga.
AmigaOS 4 will be more portable later.
>Amiga said a PPC/x86 native version of AmigaOS was impossible
They never said that. They said they were evaluating the market.
>are now opting for a strange PPC plan where the market is even smaller than >the current Amiga HW market (which actually has heaps of software and 3rd >parties HW).
PPC is well know as the future for Amiga classic for years. The 3rd party hardware situation is not viable any more on very old motherboards. A new motherboard was needed.
>But what I disagree in is that it will run on PPC only. What about all the x86 >computers out there?
I got your point but you didn't get the fact that:
- Writing an OS for zillions of different PCs is not the same work as writing an OS for a few PPC KNOWN systems.
- Amiga is in contact with company that worked with Amiga and PPC these last years and spent $$$$$$$ to have PPC knowledge, products ...
- A lot of work has been already done to port the AmigaOS on PPC, the move on PPC would be much quicker than on X86.
- All the Amiga surviving shops ask to have a new PPC Amiga motherboard.
- There is a market to sell AmigaOne mainboards to linuxppc users that are waiting for one for years
>Do I have to continue purchasing Amiga HW through mail order? Well, that is >
If you have no local dealers you will have too until you open an Amiga shop.
>just not an option, as it will get NO new users. Hope you catch my point.
If they can:
Keep the current users, get back one part of the one that left these last years, sell the hardware to linuxppc users that could enjoy AOS4.0. Get some curious on board.
But well you are right even if the DE has nothing to do with the current Amiga it is the one that can sell on millions of (sub)computers .
Amigan : Comment 6 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (m0ns00n):
One thing. The AROS alternative is a new start for "AmigaOS". They are implementing AROS as clean as the AmigaOS 3.1 were, with no bloat, like overcrowded patterns in the presets drawer and a heck of alot of utils scattered everywhere (utilities/ and tools/ and system/ are becoming the same thing!). It is a fresh start where new implementions are not just implemented like:
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makedir NewImplemention1/
copy source:ni1/ NewImplemention1/ all
...
but rather written in along the way, in a SYSTEMATIC manner. H&P, do you know what systematic is? Do you know what consistency is? What about making os4.0 with ONE icon set, not a mishmash of different flavours.
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I'll brag on later
Amigan : Comment 7 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (m0ns00n):
>I KNOW that it is not an addon, but it IS marketed, or communicated as such, >and either way, why not just say: "Here we have a new computer system that >runs AmigaOS 4 or PPc Linux."? The point I am trying to make is that Amiga,
It is marketed as an Amiga product when targetted to an Amiga audience.
It will be marketed as a linux CHRP motherboard for linuxPPC users.
...
>still, runs away from Intel architecture, the platform that is dominating >everywhere.
The platform that is dominating spend $$$$$$$$$$$$ to be compatible with Windows. Got that ?
>The fact that Haage&Partner, which is a semi-amateur team of
>coders, IMHO and don't get me wrong, is continuing the development, is not for
I can judge you better now ;)
> the better. Many people on the AROS list are quite sceptic about these new >Amiga plans. x86 is an essential platform. Make AmigaOS 4, let people buy it
If AmigaOS was x86 only it would sell less than PPC AmigaOS. Amigans want AMIGA(tm) HARDWARE. You would just kill all Amiga distributor.
Just have a look at BeOS. It could have been AmigaOS x86.
>online and download an ISO or something. Let them install the OS on their >computers, 5 mins later, they are Amiga users, new Amiga users, like what >happened with BeOS and QNX. 900 000 users have QNX now. The AROS people would >be a great help into making that dream a reality!
Yes I dowloaded (3 times) and installed QNX as the 900000 people, played with it 1 hour and then I never used it again. I also downloaded the AROS disks.
Very nice. And then ?
>Amiga is talking about making a revolution. Forget it. The culture has >changed. If the new hw is not formed as a perverse phallos with tentacles, >nobody will be upset by anything new from Amiga Inc or any other Inc.
The revolution is the DE. If they can market it on time they can sell millions licenses and make a big bang in the computer industry.
>Amiga is saying they are listening to the community.
They did the communauty (80%) asked for a PPC Amiga and PPC OS.
>they can't confirm what they are abstracting? What do we know about what they >think we are thinking? See? We can't hear them, so how can we know what they >are doing? Also, why can't they go into a public Q&A with AROS. Aros already >boots on intel, and is, as a matter of fact, usable! It is even possible to
Yes I love to open a couple of gadgets ...
>rite apps for this platform, NOW, and run it on a native disk for x86 -> you'd
Yes rewrite everything to make it work only on x86 without good support of drivers or custom hardware.
>feel quite at home with AROS, I've tried it, and my nostalgy alarm device just >xploded. Amiga are ignoring it. OS3.9 is moving closer and closer away from
OS3.9 is exactely what a lot of Amigans expected on 68k. A lot of them where crying that they already had a 3.9 with all the enhencement they got from Aminet.
>AmigaOS, with it's strange Windows installer clone, the rather orphan
Amiga Installer ?
>ReAction, which is a total blow in the dark when we already have Classact >GUIs, MUI, BGUI etcetc. Everyone should be able to see this development going
Reaction is not so bad.
>out of hand. Aros has decided to build an OS3.1 like OS for x86. They are >almost there. It would be a question of months when we could se a full
>AmigaOS "4" on x86 if Amiga embraced AROS.
So go for it. AROS is a very nice effort. But it is far away to be a commercial OS.
>Haage&Partner should get involved with them too, and Hyperion, etc.
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H&P are living with AOS development and you would like that they work for free ?
>Now we have a problem with prestige. It is really no question of what works, >but about keeping the face. H&P will perhaps never put their projects aside >for AROS. They want THEIR project made a standard. MorphOS people want THEIR >alternative. Amiga want everybody to be good christians and love each other >and unite, think big and ambigious. The AROS crew do not want to set a >standard, but IMO, they have the better alternative, as they are the ones >supporting virtually any platform in question, as long as they get the >manpower, they have a portable kernel and a portable OS.
So is the world. But think 2s who will make some profit to invest in the future ?
>I could go on, and I will, but I'll wait for comments on this one.
AROS 75% finished does not mean it is nearly usable. If Amiga would they could have shut it down. If they decide to go commercial they will have lawyers after them.
If you want AROS on X86 just help them. But this is not the Amiga future. It is not for most of the Amigans left and it is not economicaly viable. Amiga is a company and need to make profit to give us new products to make new profits ...
It is sad but it is the life.
Amigan : Comment 8 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (m0ns00n):
So stay with a plain 3.1 and do not try to load a software from Aminet: it will add you file everywhere ;)
Amigan : Comment 9 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Look at the poll 80% of happy people. Not so bad.
in the 20% are people that wanted:
Morphos
native DE for X86
that H&P, AROS and MorphOS develop together
AmigaOS 4.0 for X86
the moon
Pamela Lee Anderson ;)
All of the previous one and more.
Amigan : Comment 10 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by John McKenzie on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
I have some problems with Amiga's new plan, but they are mostly business concerns, not technical ones. However, I thought I would chirp in;
You seem to be talking like AmigaOS4.0 is the end all and be all of Amiga's plans. It is not.
Is it just something that can be done right now. A stop gap measure. A keep us busy plan. Porting to x86 would take so long it wouldn't be done until such a time as it would interfere with their ultimate goals -DE. And this ultimate goal will run on x86.
Think of it in this sacled down way (without using the literal numbers);
-x86 port with no backwards compatiblity could be done late next week.
-PPC port can be done tommorow and allow old apps to run.
-DE will be ready a week and half from now and run on x86 and everything else.
-A month from now x86 will be replaced by IA-64.
PPC has been the defacto new CPU for Amiga for so long and so many people have worked with it, that I doubt that an x86 could be faster even with the help of groups like AROS.
The DE is what they want everyone to buy, and what will be available for the masses, no mail order nessecary, etc. PPC is just for us to hold us over a little bit.
(Just as a side note I would like to mention how crappy x86 chips are, and if you want whats popular, not whats good, you should go buy a windows system.)
Wow, I almost sound supportive of the new plans. :-)
Amigan : Comment 11 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Christophe Decanini):
I don't understand your arguments. You say 80% of the Amiga userbase wants PPC. What is that? Where do you get those statistics from? You seem to include yourself with the general majority? How can you proove that? The point you seem to miss completely is that the single most important goal for Amiga Inc should be to INCREASE their userbase. And in the calculation, do you include the amiga userbase which now uses an x86 computer, who are completely left out in the cold by this announcement? You say BeOS didn't make it. Where does it say that Be is doomed? I see alot of progress on BeOS. They are loosing it on the BeIA development, but as I use BeOS every day, I see it as a great platform, with a big future. AROS could be better for Amiga users on the other hand. Why is AROS better for Amiga users?
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AROS can:
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* Compile Amiga OS sources for AROS in notime, with little work
* Run hosted on Linux distros, BSD variants AND run Native
* It is more like AmigaOS than AmigaDE, or AmigaOS3.9, as 3.9 is a chaotic mix of Aminet releases, where AROS is clean, like AmigaOS was (simplicity?). AmigaOS is fast becoming bloatware! (complexity!)
* AROS is not dependant on money (important)
-
This means that Amiga users will be VERY familiar with this OS, and it will feel like they just booted their favourite system on their PC, like it was all natural, and it is. And if they want to, they can grab an old Pentium 90 and boot this OS like a dream, just for kicks.
-
You seem to be one of the AmigaDE predicants who hail this yet unseen OE. The SDK is not impressive at all. And it is not anything of a modern OS either. It is a developer environment, for developers. It does not give any impression of what a user could achieve with it. On the note of AmigaOS 4.x, what does it promise? It promises to rely on Amiga Inc's ever lasting promises. Does it change anything? Yes, we get a fast CPU, but what about a choice? A choice to run either AmigaOS 4, with an emulator, or Linux PPC, which is merely a shadow of the more developed x86 distros. If Amiga Inc was not so hung up in their strange paradigms of capitalism and tradition, they might succeed, but us, the minority, will perhaps want something else, like availability, something the Amiga hasn't been able to deliver the last 7 years. Availability, AROS delivers, and any other x86 development. I could go to the nearest shop just outside my door and get new hardware, but on the future Amiga horizon, I still see mail order and false hope.
-
And I dare say: Amigans miss availability. It is one of the main reasons they are complaining. Some say, open a shop! Many have tried in vain. Even a BSD shop could survive, as they use standard components. Amiga HW will with OS4.x only continue to be exclusive, and this is a BAD thing, even though some enthusiasts can run MUI 3.9 and YAM, but what ever for. I would like to run Opera, or MS Word, or Assembler x86 demos, or whatever which exist in a great quantity for productivity and entertainment. It would be very accessable on my multiple choice boot hardware, with AROS, Linux and even Windows, or BeOS, or perhaps MacOSX in the future. Amiga OS, where would it run, in a small world of PPC?! What is the future in that?
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OS5 will solve this. Well, will it? Perhaps, but in 1 year, perhaps AROS has already taken ground, if not Amiga press charges and show even more how short sighted they are.
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x86 is an obvious must. You say, 80%!!! say this and that. Then, go follow the flock of sheep! Use your common sense, man! Why keep getting fooled? PPC is not they way, it is no alternative to start a new "zico" platform. We need:
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* Availability
* Compatability
* Inclusive hardware
* A hand out to developers of other platforms (for cross platform development with choices beyond than Linux)
-
Do you think open source people will go hunting for PPC hardware? Do you think they will bother when they already have cross platform projects for BeOS x86, Linux x86, Windows x86, AltheOS x86, AROS x86.... No way. A minority perhaps, but a few Amigans won't make this platform more interesting, we need new blood.
-
And I will still go on.
Amigan : Comment 12 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (John McKenzie):
>The DE is what they want everyone to buy, and what will be available for the
>masses, no mail order nessecary, etc. PPC is just for us to hold us over a
>little bit.
This is right, and I don't believe I will want to continue to wait. I will especially not BUY a NEW COMPUTER to wait on. Pay to wait? Get outtahere! That is too bizarre. I already have an Amiga to wait on, even though it will soon collapse. The DE is what they want everyone to buy. Windows is what Microsoft want everyone to buy. Why, did they miss what I wanted to buy? Toss them.
Amigan : Comment 13 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (m0ns00n):
>I don't understand your arguments. You say 80% of the Amiga userbase wants PPC.
> What is that? Where do you get those statistics from? You seem to include yourself with the general majority? How can you proove that?
Ok I should not say 80%. I should say a vast majority of active Amiga users.
The one that still purchase Amiga hardware and software.
>The point you seem to miss completely is that the single most important goal for Amiga Inc should be to INCREASE their userbase.
What you still not get is that the DE is aimed to have new users. Aros on X86 would just help split the Amiga users once more.
>And in the calculation, do you include the amiga userbase which now uses an x86 computer,
Which one ? The SDK one: No problem, the other one left the Amiga market.
Even if they are friendly they do not help the business running.
> who are completely left out in the cold by this announcement? You say BeOS didn't make it.
>Where does it say that Be is doomed? I see alot of progress on BeOS.
OK I got a 2 CPU computer(PPC) specialy for Be. I'am still waiting version 5 PPC.
X86 users: They feal dommed when Be went to BeIA.
>They are loosing it on the BeIA development, but as I use BeOS every day, I see it as a great platform, with a big future.
I don't see a big future on the desktop for Be. The desktop need major Desktop app such as Macromedia, Adobe, Newtek ...
> AROS could be better for Amiga users on the other hand.
> Why is AROS better for Amiga users?
>-
>AROS can:
>-
>* Compile Amiga OS sources for AROS in notime, with little work
The problem is that the software we would like to have ported are (for most of them) not sourcecode available
The problem is that you would get most of your softwares on X86 only.
>* Run hosted on Linux distros, BSD variants AND run Native
And where is the market ?
>* It is more like AmigaOS than AmigaDE, or AmigaOS3.9, as 3.9 is a chaotic mix of Aminet releases, where AROS is clean, like AmigaOS was (simplicity?).
>AmigaOS is fast becoming bloatware! (complexity!)
AmigaOS gave in standard what most amiga users tried to bring with Aminet softwares.
I don't call this Bloatware. I call Windows, OSX, Linux bloatware. You wan to run AROS on linux and you say 3.9 is bloatware ?
>* AROS is not dependant on money (important)
So it does not give any way to have new products quickly.
So it makes impossible agreement between companies.
So it HAS NO MONEY. These AROS guys are heroes: they work for free on the evening.
>This means that Amiga users will be VERY familiar with this OS, and it will feel like they just booted their favourite system on their PC
And it won't take advantage of card X Y, it won't work with such and such chipset.
>, like it was all natural, and it is. And if they want to, they can grab an old Pentium 90 and boot this OS like a dream, just for kicks.
A lot of Amigans are not like you: they DO NOT WANT A PC ! They want PPC or better. They want custom chips ...
>You seem to be one of the AmigaDE predicants who hail this yet unseen OE.
I like the DE concept, I don't know if I will like the OS but it promises some Amiga like characteristics:
- Small and efficient
- Enhanced datatype system
- Run everywhere
...
AmigaDe is the fruit of "think again and do it from scratch".
AROS is rewrite a 10 years old OS and keep its drawbacks.
I like the actual AmigaOS a lot but I think that when you start from scratch you can learn from the past mistakes.
> The SDK is not impressive at all. And it is not anything of a modern OS either.
It is a SDK. You did not see yet the final OS.
It has some features that latest OS want to approach (look at .net).
It has possibilities to expand much more then any AmigaOS port.
>It is a developer environment, for developers. It does not give any impression of what a user could achieve with it.
It is not yet here. understand ?
> On the note of AmigaOS 4.x, what does it promise? It promises to rely on Amiga Inc's ever lasting promises.
AMIGA own AMIGAOS.
So what AROS rely on AROS team. If Aaron had decided to stop working on it there are some chance that the project would have been freezed.
> Does it change anything? Yes, we get a fast CPU, but what about a choice?
>A choice to run either AmigaOS 4, with an emulator, or Linux PPC, which is merely a shadow of the more developed x86 distros.
Do you prefer to be on X86 to have Win$ and other Linux bloatware ?
At least take an Apple and run OSX.
It is still unix bloatware but at least it is well supported by software editors (and more clean than Win$).
If we had an APUS like effort we could even have OSX on AmigaOne.
> If Amiga Inc was not so hung up in their strange paradigms of capitalism and tradition,
It is sad but money rules the world. It even make you think that you have no other choice than buying a PC.
> they might succeed, but us, the minority, will perhaps want something else, like availability, something the Amiga hasn't been able to deliver the last 7 years.
> Availability, AROS delivers, and any other x86 development.
Availibility of what ?
Hardware. If we have the chance to keep some non X86 hardware what is the difference spending 1000$ on Amigaone and X86.
The big diference is you will give your money to a non Amiga company with buying a PC. One day you won't have any Amiga product and you will cry again.
AROS delivers ? You mean they delivered the first demo to open a gadget window and imediately crashed my work compaq PC.
>I could go to the nearest shop just outside my door and get new hardware, but on the future Amiga horizon, I still see mail order and false hope.
Yes you go out buy hardware and cry it is not supported on AROS.
Then you cry that the dealer has no Amiga software.
Then you cry that there is no more Amiga company, brand, name, users, communauty ...
>And I dare say: Amigans miss availability. It is one of the main reasons they are complaining.
You have no idea what nonsense you are saying
> Some say, open a shop! Many have tried in vain.
I have one shop actualy and I see people like you trying to get more people on the PC.
Perhaps we will close and I will remember you and your availibility ideology.
>Even a BSD shop could survive, as they use standard components.
Where ? BSD is much better than Linux but unknow.
It is out of the money market. Linux makes money linux rules the Unix opensource world.
> Amiga HW will with OS4.x only continue to be exclusive, and this is a BAD thing, even though some enthusiasts can run MUI 3.9 and YAM, but what ever for. I would like to run Opera, or MS Word, or Assembler x86 demos, or whatever which exist in a great quantity for productivity and entertainment. It would be very accessable on my multiple choice boot hardware, with AROS, Linux and even Windows, or BeOS, or perhaps MacOSX in the future. Amiga OS, where would it run, in a small world of PPC?! What is the future in that?
You don't have the choice: the PC see is bigger but if you lose the unity, the companies ...
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>OS5 will solve this. Well, will it? Perhaps, but in 1 year, perhaps AROS has already taken ground, if not Amiga press charges and show even more how short sighted they are.
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Perhaps AROS will be shut down because it destroys Amiga business.
>x86 is an obvious must. You say, 80%!!! say this and that. Then, go follow the flock of sheep! Use your common sense, man! Why keep getting fooled? PPC is not they way, it is no alternative to start a new "zico" platform. We need:
Why X86 is a must. Why don't you think out of the box.
X86 is one of the best success of the capitalism you do not like.
The day there will be only X86 I will stop use computers because I'am against "unique thinking" and monopols.
>* Availability
Harware drivers won't be available for your 0.01% market share OS
>* Compatability
Softwares developped for a non DE Amiga won't be compatible from one CPU to another.
>* Inclusive hardware
?
*> A hand out to developers of other platforms (for cross platform development with choices beyond than Linux)
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You dream.
>Do you think open source people will go hunting for PPC hardware? Do you think they will bother when they already have cross platform projects for BeOS x86, Linux x86, Windows x86, AltheOS x86, AROS x86....
Yes I think there is a niche market. Just try linuxppc mailing list but don't speak about your X86 ideology.
> No way. A minority perhaps, but a few Amigans won't make this platform more interesting, we need new blood.
And as a minority will pick PPC hardware a minority will port open source half baked softwares for you aros x86.
You wont have 10000 user more if aros get ported on X86. You are dreaming: You need commercial company to support the product.
Why do you think Linux got a momentum ? Because company see money and a good way to fight against M$.
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>And I will still go on.
And there will be left only a few AROS developpers experimenting Linux ports on AROS.
You have to understand that the core Amiga userbase has still Amiga users that want a future, Amiga dealers, company that do great hardware, games, ....
Of course we can not stay 100% compliant with the A1000 design. The AmigaOne is a step forward for power but a step backward for architecture.
Just go on Moobunny to read interesting Amigaone criticism. Amiga as a company has to drive most of the communauty in the same way.
80% is not perfect but not so bad.
Don't think I like capitalism or money: it is just the reality. But the reality is also that as a consumer you can make live some people that think out of the box and that give to users the choice.
I would like that we still have the choice for OS, CPU, software ... I don't like monopolism.
Don't think I have something against AROS or morphos (or BeOs). I admire these developers but they missed the oportunity to go in a single direction with Amiga.
I do not say it is their fault. I think their products is dead born because it can not find its market.
I would like that they work all together and that we have classic PPC and de on any platform but at this moment it is just not possible.
If we don't go the way Amiga show us to go we will scattered everywhere and disapear.
It is sad to say the AmigaOS as we know today has no more big future mainly because software house think about market share.
But this is the reality. If the DE can spread around it his good as Amiga will try to make most of us happy.
To survive AmigaOS, MorphOS, AROS need to find a market. A market is a lot of consumers ready to pay for it and for tis services.
I will stop here as you get most of my point of view. I hope that like me you can understand the other side.
Amigan : Comment 14 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Hmm...I just hope Power4 processor will compatible and fast enougth!?
Amigan : Comment 15 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 03-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (m0ns00n):
You miss the point completely, I think. I will speak for myself as an Amigan. And YES I own both a high end A3000 and high end X86 PC-Clone. Just because I have an x86 clone box doesn't mean I think it is "the sh*t". X86 hardware is and always will be a kludge. X86 clones existed in the 80s and Amiga hardware existed, that doesn't make the x86 better by default, as a matter of fact as we all know it was much worse. IMO the new PPC hardware is superior and cleaner by design. Is it what everyone else is using? NO. But is AmigaOS what everyone else is using? *NO*
I am NOT a lemming. Just because the vast masses of people think Bill Gate and Al Gore invented the computer and internet repectively doesn't mean it is so. An all new PPC AmigaOS based computer is the holy grail to me.
Regards,
redrumLOA
Amigan : Comment 16 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 04-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (redrumloa):
>An all new PPC AmigaOS based computer is the holy grail to me.
You religious sheep. Get out of this fake church of yours. Amiga is fast becoming a pathetic cult!
Amigan : Comment 17 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 04-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (m0ns00n):
A lot of amigans does not like X86. It is their choice. They have the right to choose domething else.
Did you read the comment guidelines ?
I see which kind of respect and understanding you have.
You can not accept that someone does not like something you like.
Next time I will just ignore your posts. This discussion is fruitless.
Amigan : Comment 18 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 04-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Sure, I didn't liked that they wouldn't done a native standalone version of amigade. But they had REASONS for that, their partners didn't wanted mp(i suppose), and they had to skip it.. they need money and get something out.
And this amigaos thing isn't THAT bad, i mean, i use openbsd on my x86 bux just because all desktop oses on it sucks, i would like to have a better one, i can't even play DivX;-) movies or mp3s on this one. The classic amiga has 3 3ivX players, at least one from project mayo, and lots of mp3 players... I don't care if i get all those flashy things right now, amigaos4.5 and 5.0 will surely be better. And who knows, if everyone code their stuff for amigade, they will have a better market, still run on amigaos and it would make it possible to get amigaos running on other platforms than ppc later... that's the big deal? sure, i don't want to spend 500-650$ on "nothing", if the amigaos doesn't become that great, but i can run netbsd/linuxppc on it anyway, so it will be atleast as good as my x86 box.
Amigan : Comment 19 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 04-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (m0ns00n):
Du u really think amigaos 4.0 and up will be some mix of aminet patches? they will surely fix the stuff "the right way" if they want to continue with the os development, the aminet stuff added was there just to make it some sort of standard, and they are usefull, so why not? I don't want an "this is kind of amiga" os on x86, i could start amiwm in X and use uae, yeah, that would surely be an amiga?
Amigan : Comment 20 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 04-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (m0ns00n):
The great thing with amigaos is what you don't need 2-3different oses to suite your needs. and i don't think AROS will be great at all, who will get their stuff?
the open source ppl? why are they that important? and they will port netbsd and linuxppc to amigaone anyway.
Amigan : Comment 21 of 21ANN.lu
Posted by Muffin on 05-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
The only way to make Amiga go from hear to the future is us supporting it,
and have a open dialogue, and not be to narrow-minded.
If this was the announcement made one year ago it would be loved by all.
So the bottom line is that they made other promises and now they have to take
a nother direction, which made "ppl" a "bit" dissapointed,
and here we are killing the spirit that's left.
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