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[News] Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanationANN.lu
Posted on 10-Apr-2001 12:00 GMT by Christophe Decanini38 comments
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From the AmigaOne mailing list: " Whilst Amiga Inc are getting all the details of OS4/5 up on their own website I thought it might be useful to give my own views as to where we are, where we are going and why the St Louis announcement was so pivotal to the future of the Amiga. Its quite long I'm afraid, but hopefully a useful basis for further discussion. If the general consensus is that it helps clarify the issues involved I'll also stick it in the AmigaOne section of our web site. If I've got some details wrong I'm sure Fleecy will comment ;-)" Here's the original message written by Eyetech Group Ltd's Alan.

Over the last few months we have been working closely with Amiga Inc to ensure that the AmigaOne is worthy of being the next generation Amiga - and that of course means that it must have a robust, expandable, secure, efficient real time operating system. But that was meant to be the Amiga DE wasn't it? Well yes and no. The Amiga DE is a quite basic real-time operating system designed primarily for single tasking - and certainly single user - operations on embedded systems such as set top boxes, PDA's, cell phones etc. And since these devices have both low power cpu's and very limited user interfaces the DE needs to be free of much of the clutter that we normally take for granted in a desktop operating system.

On the other hand a home server - the central box that coordinates all the Amiga DE devices and runs 'proper' desktop applications - needs many more facilities, such as task-level memory protection and OS-level virtual memory, that are not practical to implement within the DE without completely compromising its portability and speed.

So what we have now ended up with is the best of both worlds. Desktop Amiga users will have a desktop/server OS, natively coded for the PPC, with added memory protection, virtual memory and a much improved file system, whilst still retaining the efficiency, real time responsiveness, elegance and familiarity of the Classic Amiga OS. The DE will follow its own development path but be totally integrated within OS4+

Developing the new OS is to be a 4-stage process:

  • OS4.0 will be an updated version of OS3.9 with special facilities added to allow existing classic Amiga applications to run on the AmigaOne, accessing the classic Amiga hardware via the hardware bridge on the AmigaOne 1200/4000. Much of the operating system will still be in 680x0 code with in line instruction conversion to PPC code.
  • OS4.2 will add additional features and the recoding of much of the OS in native PPC code. However the major milestone in this release will be the complete retargeting of all operating system I/O away from Amiga specific hardware/chipsets. This means that retargetable 'Classic' applications can be run on the AmigaOne (or any Zico-compliant PPC board) without any 'classic' Amiga hardware present. At this stage the Amiga DE will also be ported to the Amiga OS so that the AmigaOne can be used as a development/porting platform for Amiga DE content (as a more familiar alternative to the currently available Windows/Linux development environments). Drivers will obviously be provided for those resources which are retargeted to the AmigaOne motherboard (USB, sound, graphics, UDMA etc).
  • OS4.5 will be an entirely PPC-native, entirely hardware independant version of the operating system, with full driver support for all Zico resources (FireWire, Matrox NG graphics cards, SCSI etc)
  • OS5 is a full 64-bit fully distributed SMP operating system which will implement virtual memory, memory protection and the Amiga DE in a fully-spec'd, modular home-server/desktop OS.
OS4.x will only run on PPC boards conforming to the Zico specifications which excludes BlizzardPPC & CyberStormPPC accelerators - even when coupled with a Predator-SE PCI bus. We (and Amiga Inc) are pressing DCE, the current manufacturers of these boards, to come up with a 'Zico compliance kit' to preserve the investment of existing BPPC/CSPPC users and allow them to run OS4.x.

Of course this means that - from OS 4.2 on - you will only need a existing 'Classic' Amiga for those few applications that are genuinely not retargetable (ie those that still insist on 'hitting' the classic hardware). All of the existing application software developers we have spoken to are more than willing to port their applications to a fully hardware independent PPC AmigaOne. This also means that by the time we would have scheduled the design and production of the AmigaOne 3000 it would probably be an irrelevant piece of hardware as far as most users are concerned. We're not closing that door just yet, but, because of this hardware independance from OS4.2 onwards we believe that existing Ax000 users will be able to run their applications on stand-alone AmigaOne PPC hardware much sooner than we had originally anticipated. And as far as that most famous of all big-box Amiga accessories is concerned - the Video Toaster - we are going straight round to NewTek ask them to port drivers for their existing PCI-based Toaster to OS4.x as soon as production AmigaOnes are released!

Finally, one of the most significant parts of the announcement is that Amiga Inc have decided - quite properly in my view - to take their ownership of the Amiga OS seriously. They are taking development control, standards definition and quality assurance for the Amiga OS back in house for the first time since 1984. This is the first step in ensuring that we are no longer blighted with compatibility issues between different software modules, or 'kernel wars' between third party developers. Provided everyone is sufficiently unbiassed to see the move in this light there is no reason why Amiga shouldn't choose the best elements from Haage & Partner's WarpOS, Ralph Schmidts's MorphOS, the work from the AROS project team and the existing Classic OS in developing OS4 & 5. The important thing is that we now have - in the shape of Fleecy Moss - a combined helmsman, navigator and Captain for the Amiga OS. And I for one am fully committing our AmigaOne hardware to Amiga's new OS strategy - for the sake of forward compatibility and reliability - and without the diversion of seeing if we can get Linux, MorphOS or anything else running on the AmigaOne board.

Hope this helps

Alan

Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 1 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Wow ! I forgot the paragraph tags !
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 2 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Christophe Decanini):
No worries, I added them.
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 3 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
This was really good and simple written!
I like it.
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 4 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
I hope Newtek will say YES :)
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 5 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
> Much of the operating system will still be in 680x0 code with in line instruction conversion to PPC code.
So, worst case for 4.0 we're looking at something like some PPC boot code and 68k emulation to run the OS? How much and what parts will still be 68k?
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 6 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
>> OS4.x will only run on PPC boards conforming to the Zico specifications which excludes BlizzardPPC & CyberStormPPC accelerators - even when coupled with a Predator-SE PCI bus. We (and Amiga Inc) are pressing DCE, the current manufacturers of these boards, to come up with a 'Zico compliance kit' to preserve the investment of existing BPPC/CSPPC users and allow them to run OS4.x. <<
Interesting. If a "Zico Compliance Kit" is not forthcoming then any BPPC/CSPPC user will be forced to use MorphOS as a PPC OS unless they upgrade to an AmigaOne or similar. If such a "kit" is produced then it will kill potential MorphOS sales as the "official" upgrade path is open. Anyone taking bets on what DCE will do?
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 7 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Darrin):
I think (and hope) that DCE is not that much a "Ralph Schmidt Slave" and be persuaded to go MorphOS only. I think that it's in their best interest to support all Operating systems when they can. For some people a new mainboard is beyond their budget. But not all of them want to run MorphOS, so there's certainly money to make for DCE if they release such a kit.
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 8 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Darrin):
While I don't have a PPCboard of my own, I still think it would be good if DCE made it, there are quite a few PPC amiga user out there who don't want their hardware to be outdated yet.
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 9 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Heine on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Darrin):
> Anyone taking bets on what DCE will do?
Hm, after reading this, to me it rather seems supporting what Ralph said about H&P and Eyetech forcing us via the AmigaOS-updates to use their own solutions (WarpOS / AmigaOne1200/4000) only. The more I read about AI, H&P and now Eyetech, the more I become convinced that MorphOS will be the better choice for e... What a pity AI chose them instead of the MorphOS/bplan-crew!
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 10 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Francois Prowse on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Ok - all sounds good...however AmigaOS was never a Real Time OS.
Still waiting to hear from Eyetech about being a beta tester though :(
Cheers
FP
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 11 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Martin Heine):
I think this was a very good piece of information. Saying that Aros and MorphOS can help beinging the new OS up to speed on PPC is rather reassuring, but like with all these pieces of information, a sense of completeness is still missing. I would like to hear the Aros and MorphOS teams comment on this. Also, I would like to hear wether they are focusing on making os4 as good looking and clean looking as possible. Just so you all catch my point. The 1x1 aspect of the windows in 3.9 was not that impressing. It still lacked the same feel that Visual Prefs gives the GUI. So things that IMO needs to be adressed:
-
Please bear in mind that most of this is directed to Amiga Inc(!).
-
* Will the OS install without needing to reboot more than once? Will the new PPC hw environment still be able to make installation swift? Will the dreaded PAL/NTSC screens finally be gone? (Win2k still haven't gotten rid of it's dos error screens)
-
* How will the GUI be improved? Will we still have to live with an OS looking less than, and giving less configurability than; MUI?
-
* How will the icons be improved? Will they still insist on having a grey background (speaking of the shadows, at least alphablend them (we do habe a PPC now)), looking out of place with a backdrop picture?
-
* Will the Prefs drawer still be a mix of different GUIs? (etc)
-
Commodore had consistancy in their Workbench. Please get it back in place. Haage and Partner made quite a mess there. Perhaps it will be sorted out? Will you give me and those who think likevise back the trust with making your homepage show the r e a l image you would like to have publicly? Look at apple.com or microsoft.com or be.com etc. You know what I mean. How can I trust the new os will be stylish and attractive if you can't even get your homepage done with style.
-
* How far have you come in porting the OS to PPC? How is it done? Any details would be very worthwhile. More than just saying: it will be this and that when it comes. That has been said too many times. How can one take your word on it?Do you have a progress bar of the sources being ported? A paper of details? Anything? Please, I want to believe this can have any impact. I really do.
-
* When will we get any public signs from the world press again? Have they lost the faith too? Perhaps you should try to give people something to look at, something to read, beyond slashdot, ann and the other news sites. And the monthly executive update is not really giving any insight, other than crackers for us to chew while waiting.
-
All in all. Great hearing from you, but the texts you now publish seem to repeat the former one. I ask for more insight, you reformulate your old texts. Can't you at least give us some hard information, like the info in the Amiga Inc e-zine or something? (Where is the next edition anyway?)
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 12 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Martin Heine):
I guess Amiga Inc felt that giving us a quality finished product from a professional software team rather than an unfinished hobby-coded effort with suspect support was the best way ahead. The added advantage of an integrated AmigaDE layer was probably regarded as a plus too :)
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 13 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by kriz on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
so where is the cheap and availible CyberstormPPC cards ??! DCE should start producing new cards with faster CPUs too, 604 233 is way too slooooooooow..
no good news if ya ask me :(
amiga 4life, 68k is the way for now ,haha...
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 14 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Well, it looks like everyone's become a bit more coherent, and a bit less vague this time around; if Amiga Inc. can keep it up, maybe they'll figure out how to announce things fully (and without confusion) by the next St. Louis show. :) If they _can_ accomplish this, now that the plan has been fleshed out and explained, more power to them; however, for the x86 fencesitters out there, it still means we have little to care about until OS5, at the least... which I can live with, since it means I'll be forced to spend that time learning UNIX, which just might increase my marketability, heh.
When I mention the vagueness of communication... I don't want to pick on Fleecy specifically, but he just provided an example; I've rearranged it a bit for space, as he quoted underneath.
>> Will OS5 be compiled to VP or to PPC code?
>Fleecy?
2. Either will run on OS5. Obviously you'll need a PPC based machine to
run the PPC binaries though.
The problem here is that this question can have, at most, 5 responses- "VP," "PPC," "mixed," "we don't know/we're still planning," "we can't reveal our plans, at present." Instead, an entirely different (and unasked) question is answered. If this is just natural oversight, it's time for the Amiga leadership to pay closer attention when called on; if it's intentional vagueness... asking Bill Gates about .NET would evoke clearer responses, heh. It's getting better, but there's still a ways to go.
Ahwell. Just an observation, but now that I know what's *not* coming soon (self-hosted, protected mode x86 DE), I have the luxury of being able to say, "Maybe we should just stop bugging these guys and save our criticism for the released product..."
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 15 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Ben on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
I cant work it out - cant AmigaOS4.x run in the DE? Whats the point of the DE? We wanna play games in it on a desktop AND any DE enabled device, not much point in the DE otherwise, sounds like a chopped down AmigaOS? The question is what is the real benefit to a desktop of DE - thats where it needs to be accepted as that is currently the biggest market isnt it?...
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 16 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Klauke on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
At a quick view most of the questions addressed here have already been
answered by AmigaInc., Eyetech and Amiga people you, we, know from the past,
at the Yahoo AmigaOne ML (m0ns00n, Ben et al).
Your invited to look in there its free for reading, in case you _want_
to know ;-)
As I ever said I will give MorphOS a try, if possible and judge it objectivly.
The operating system, Ralph Schmidt. Not the shouters and whiners.
I am only trying to be fair to anyone (and is it a fault to expect this from
anyone else??).
Martin Heine:
This is not meant to harm you, just a simple question:
Who is forced to Eyetech _if_ bplan, DCE and/or others do their zico AmigaOne design?
Amiga has so far only stated to support 2 AmigaOne board manufacturers right now,
the door is yet open to bplan, if they are willing to take the chance (business wise).
And anyone is invited to get a soft/hardware layer done, that give zico to
the (remaining) original miggys (1200 and up), but as AmigaInc. is no welfare
they can not expect fundings, but expertise from AmigaInc. people.
Nothing's final now, we will see what happens, soon.
Ciao, Alex
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 17 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by KSK on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben):
IMO: The biggest potential market will be Cell Phones.
BUT, we do not yet know what market segment(s) AmigaDE manages to penetrate, if any...
PDA segment looks slightly promising, though.
btw, Ben, you better read some posts by AI an Eyetech people.
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 18 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by KSK on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amigaone/message/1576
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 19 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by John Niclasen on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Ben):
Ben,
See AmigaDE as a set of APIs (Application Programming Interfaces). Those are the libraries of functions for developers. The clever thing is, that if I as a developer program against the AmigaDE, my code will work on many platforms. I don't have to use extra time to port my application to this and that platform/Operating System. You can say, that the AmigaDE is the dream for the developer, and in the end also for the user, because you get all these wonderful applications on every important platform. There is no point to get AmigaOS4.x to run in the AmigaDE, because AmigaDE don't have memory protection for one thing (and won't get it). You want that on your desktop OS, so the system won't crash, just because a single application crash. The point of AmigaOS4.x-5.0 and so on is, that this will be your native platform for the AmigaDE. No slowdown from Windows/Linux and so on; just plain speed, because AmigaDE will be integrated on a low level in the AmigaOS. In the end all this (included AmigaOS) will even be portable to different hardware. Wow! There you are! :)
Sincerely
John Niclasen
Denmark.
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 20 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Thank you for some clarity (although it should have come from Amiga Inc)!!! Why can't Amiga Inc employ some people who are capable of putting information over clearly just like Chris just did.
Amiga Inc's PR has been shoddy and unprofessional so far, maybe they can take some lessons from this...
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 21 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Martin Heine):
What are you talking about? There is no one forcing you the one way or the other. If you like, go with MorphOS. If you don't go with AmigaOS. There is no one pointing a gun towards you.
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 22 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Tron Man on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Hagge):
Too Late! I've given up trying to update my A3000T/CSPPC/Cvision any further. 128Mb RAM, Vlab, Emplant, I/O extender, X-surf card and three HD's. Over the last four years I've spent over 3,000 dollars but I've used the machine extensively. I feel I got my money's worth for all the enjoyment that machine has given me. But it's to the point where I have to take it all apart and put it back together every several months to keep it running, the expensive SCSI HD's are dying, the Cvision's GFX chip is WAY past its prime-its just time to move on! The expendature of a thousand dollars every year and a half is an accepted part of being in the realm of most computers, if you want to stay current. I'm frankly filled with respect for folks who can convince any modern app to run on the five+year old Amiga hardware currently extant. I will be buying one of the very first Eyetech boards I can lay my hands upon. The 3000T will be retired with the honor it deserves, or maybe it'll just crack keys for the RC5 effort till its chips fall off, which is probably soon. At any rate, its time to move on, new hardware here I come!!
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 23 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by John McKenzie on 09-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
The bits and pieces, all out of context, that slowly seeped from the St. Louis show had an entirly different meaning than any of the statements made by Amiga Inc or anyone else since.
A clear, complete statement that could have been distrubuted as soon as the announcements were made would have been most helpfull. I sincerly hope they do hire some PR people soon. (I think the position is still being advertised on the Amiga Inc website.)
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 24 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by argo on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Hey, It's AmigaDE on the Sharp PDA
http://ql.programmazione.it/default_frame.asp?id=58&type=news&lang=it
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 25 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by John Payne on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
>>> Will OS5 be compiled to VP or to PPC code?
>>Fleecy?
>
>2. Either will run on OS5. Obviously you'll need a PPC based machine to
>run the PPC binaries though.
>
>The problem here is that this question can have, at most, 5 responses->"VP," "PPC," "mixed," "we don't know/we're still planning," "we can't reveal >our plans, at present." Instead, an entirely different (and unasked) question >is answered.
Heh, at least he answered a related question! ;-)
Seriously, you ask for me too, and no doubt they need someone in-house whose jog it would be to craft those clear explanations we all wish for. But, failing that, it's kind of cool that we have Bill, Fleecy, and Gary Peake all doing their best to keep us interested, if not exactly always as informed as we'd like. I'm not certain that I don't prefer this arrangement, given that I have a fair tolerance for ambiguity and no great need to get the story straight the first time, but sooner or later it'll start reflecting badly on Amiga in the mainstream press if they don't do a better job of public relations. Time enough for that, though; they're still mostly talking to the choir.
As for whether 5.x will be compiled to the PPC or the VP, what advantages do you see to doing one versus the other?
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 26 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by John Payne on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
This looks like the answer...
> From: "fleecy" <fleecy@e...>
> Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:57pm
> Subject: RE: [amigaone] Re: OS4 and beyond - my personal take on it
>
>
> OS5 will run OS4 in a sandbox (although it's not a box and
> there won't be any sand in it). I really hope though that by the
> time OS5 is upon us, there will be new apps to replace the
> ones you might want to run 8-)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amigaone/message/1633
While that doesn't necessarily mean that OS5 will be compiled to the VP, it does appear to mean that it will be a major revision, on the order of what Apple has done with Mac OS X, and "in a sandbox" is a very apt description for how non-carbonized Mac apps run under OS X.
But OS5 is supposed to be 64 bit, and the VP is 32 bit. Does that mean that the whole shootin' match will be moving over to VP-II ?
Seems like every answer opens up at least two new questions...
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 27 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Heine on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
Of course I'm not forced in that way you mention - obviously I'd
prefer this choice (MorphOS/AmigaOS) wouldn't be necessary because of
a cooperative effort giving the next AmigaOS the best out of both
worlds.
To me it seems all the politics regarding the future of the AmigaOS
are really just based on personal dislikes - because I can only see
advantages for AI if they'd have chosen MorphOS as the foundation for
AmigaDE-desktops and -servers. They could have right now what they
just hope to have in many monthes, therefore they could concentrate
their efforts more on their main product, AmigaDE. And the benefit for
us who like MorphOS would of course be that the OS we like would have
the potential to become a bit more than just another hobby-OS used by
a handful freaks.
Okay, contrary to you, I'm just a plain user, so I don't have the
knowledge what has been really going on between you three parties (AI,
H&P and friends, Ralph and friends) - but since Ralph's comments are
not just the only major source of information for the public regarding
this (AI and H&P may feel free to reply to his comments and tell us
their side of the story - we'd really like to hear it to gain a more
objective point of view) but also often quite plausible and fitting to
my personal observations and guesses, of course I tend to believe in
the essence of what he's telling us regarding AI's choice.
But please don't take this personal, since I've obviously can't have
anything against you - on the contrary, since you're an active
supporter of the remaining Amiga-world, obviously I do have much
respect for you. I'm not even having anything against H&P or
Eyetech regarding this in the end, because that's just the way life,
and therefore economy, goes if they try to gain advantages over their
competitors. No, the company I'm very disappointed about is Amiga Inc.
since their politics prevent superior solutions. - There was a time
"Amiga" stood for quality without compromises...
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 28 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by acg on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
So far, I am not tooooo disappointed...but whatever happened to
Amiga DE being a desktop solution that could run on top of any
OS and run on any chip?
Is that supposed to come later? Or will it come if people develop
for AmigaDE on top of the PDAs and then fold it in to AmigaOS5.
I was looking forward to AmigaDE (MP, or VP) or without MP or VP,
but it looks like it is very far away, and may not even be
possible.
Also, where are all the fast Moto chips...like the Generation 5,
and six ones??????
OK, (baby rant mode: off)
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 29 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by fleecy on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Martin Heine):
Hey Martin 8-)
You state that you are 'angry at Amiga Inc' because our politics won't allow for a superior solution? You can only judge both our politics and the superiority of any solution if you understand all sides in the political domain and have used both technology solutions.
Last time I looked, you didn't and hadn't, so this statement is based upon your subjective beliefs and not on fact, which is what Amiga is forced to deal with.
It is not Amiga playing politics. We want the best solution but currently we have a three man tent with three people wanting to get in it, and refusing to come if they can't bring their TV, bicycle, flock of chickens, Fawlty Towers
videos etc etc etc.
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 30 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by KSK on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (acg):
>So far, I am not tooooo disappointed...but whatever happened to
>Amiga DE being a desktop solution that could run on top of any
>OS and run on any chip?
Nothing. It is still there.
>Is that supposed to come later?
I'm not sure if the schedule has changed. AI should clarify that.
But I quess AmigaDE schedule has not changed in any other way than
on the fact that there will not be a NATIVE AmigaDE for x86 as previously planned, perhaps later.
There will not be a NATIVE AmigaDE for every possible device that earth carries, most will remain hosted.
>Also, where are all the fast Moto chips...like the Generation 5, and six ones??????
www.macosrumors.com note: RUMORS
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 31 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Ben on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Hi
Thanks to everyone for keeping this discussion informative.
I think the problem I was trying to put across was that everyone has been wanting a new Amiga for years and most people ended up with a PC aswell as if no instead of an Amiga. I was led to believe that the "new OS" would run on x86, so a PC is not a "bad" investment as long as it meets the required specs, but the problem is that the "new OS" now seems tied to being PPC.
Correct me where I am wrong please, but I believe I now *have* to buy a PPC based computer - I now have an A1200 (not towered!), A4000 (Ateo tower), x86 PC and no more room! There is no easy/cheap option for me to get OS4 unless I sell everything!
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 32 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by KSK on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Martin Heine):
>To me it seems all the politics regarding the future of the AmigaOS
>are really just based on personal dislikes - because I can only see
>advantages for AI if they'd have chosen MorphOS as the foundation for
>AmigaDE-desktops and -servers. They could have right now what they
...
I think you then better convince Ralph Smidth to co-operate with AI.
I have seen some professional comments from AI about the matter, while Ralph just accuses AmigaInc's strategy as ridiculous.
This s what I have gathered:
MorphOS situation before St Louis:
- ClassicAmigaOS was doomed to end at OS3.9, so MorphOS had a good change to succeed amongs Amiga fanatics.
- MorphOS looked like a good and only path, it filled the gap.
- Ralph Smidth was the new king in town
MorphOS situation now:
- AmigaOS is back, MorphOS does now have an alternative, unless they merge.
- Ralph does not like H&P, because H&P did not play according to Phase5's will (M$ methodes, U know)
- Ralph wants to continue as before -> MorphOS and AmigaOS are now competing
- AmigaInc is the "king", there can not be two kings in Amiga World
- Morph fanatics attach AI & H&P ...
BUT PLEASE, do not take my word as the absolute truth. I just read that from some www pages & e-mails.
This all is so familiar for me, U C my father has a bee farm.
-KSK (changing my name to "priest"... perhaps)
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 33 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (fleecy):
Hi fleecy
Could you please check if I have understood your stuff correctly in the other thread:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=c20010401a&category=&33
best regards
priest (yeah, ex KSK)
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 34 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by francisco on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Ben):
<Correct me where I am wrong please, but I believe I now *have* to buy a PPC <based computer - I now have an A1200 (not towered!), A4000 (Ateo tower), x86 <PC and no more room! There is no easy/cheap option for me to get OS4 unless I <sell everything!
You could run amigade hosted on windows, or on linux on your x86 machine, and
in the middle future you could run amigaOS5 on your x86 computer.so you not need
to spend more money
But if you like a better system that your x86 then buy and AmigaONE it will be
as efficient as an Amiga and as expandable and cheap as a pc (a dream come true)
ahhhh i´m forgot as powerfull (well in true more powerfull) than a PC
in other hand think in it---->If you spend your money in a pc then amiga inc not sell amigaone´s then amiga with no money not can develop any Amigaos so you only alternative is windows; and never there will be amigaos for pc neither other plataform.IS THIS THAT YOU WANT?.
I´M not want my car will be powered by windows, not my phone , not my .........
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 35 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Heine on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (KSK):
Hi Fleecy & KSK!
@ Fleecy:
> You state that you are 'angry at Amiga Inc' because our politics won't allow > for a superior solution? You can only judge both our politics and the
> superiority of any solution if you understand all sides in the political
> domain and have used both technology solutions.
Okay, that's of course correct - I'm just guessing on the base what H&P delivered so far and especially on the fact that you'll have to do lots of work to go where MorphOS is already now and to almost completely rebuild AmigaOS to integrate things that were never intended to be integrated into it (I suppose most of us here are familiar with the various discussions about the problems of adding memory protection, etc., to AmigaOS). All this makes me suppose that using an already existing and clean from scratch programmed solution like MorphOS would be the better choice, allowing you to focus your efforts onto AmigaDE and its integration itself.
> It is not Amiga playing politics. We want the best solution but currently we > have a three man tent with three people wanting to get in it, and refusing to > come if they can't bring their TV, bicycle, flock of chickens, Fawlty Towers
> videos etc etc etc.
Yes. But so far I haven't read why H&P and friends don't want that third party in the tent and what makes them AI's favourite over that third party, i.e. Ralph and his crew. (Please remember what I've written in the other comment above: most I, as a plain user, do know about this, is what Ralph has written, and it sounds plausible to me - but of course I'd prefer to hear the side of the story as AI and H&P do see it, to gain a more objective picture.)
What Ralph told us as the main reasons (if I remember correctly(!); since I'm in the laboratory currently and not at home, I can't re-read it at the moment), why he wouldn't see a possibility for cooperation, were that AI's wishes for the integration of the MorphOS-developments were technically unnecessarily inferior/ineffective or almost impossible and that their work wouldn't be honoured enough by AI's suggestion for a cooperation, i.e. AI would want to get their hands on the MorphOS-code for "an apple and an egg" to patch it into their own and H&P's work without much benefit for the MorphOS-crew. And in case that's true, I do think AI should honour the lots of work Ralph & Co. would save AI better.
Well, if I were Bill McEwen, I'd even hire the MorphOS-crew officially. Of course, Ralph seems to be a quite "special" kind of character, making it difficult for some people to get along with him - but although there's of course not really a comparison possible, I'd think a bit of the original Amiga developers: some of them weren't "normal", too, but Jay didn't care as long as they did their job, and they did it very well. So why not "buying" MorphOS including its developers as Commodore bought Amiga Corp. and let the develop AmigaOS4 and therefore the foundation for AmigaOS5, while the current AI-crew concentrates on the AmigaDE. That way, too, AI would have the full control about the future AmigaOS - which seems to be the only main reason for AI preferring H&P over Ralph & Co. respectively demanding more from the MorphOS-crew than they're thinking they could agree on.
Sorry, but judging from the (little) information I do have so far, it seems that AI just doesn't want to move towards the MorphOS-crew as much as would be fair in my opinion.
@ KSK:
> I think you then better convince Ralph Smidth to co-operate with AI.
Well, I doubt a plain user could perform that magic to make them cooperate. I'm just complaining anyway because I think AI should know that not everyone is accepting everything happily just because they have "the name".
> I have seen some professional comments from AI about the matter, while Ralph > just accuses AmigaInc's strategy as ridiculous.
Well, then it seems we're reading different websites, newsgroups and mailing-lists, since at me it's rather the opposite. Do you still have these comments and could post them either here or by e-mail? I'd be of course really curious. When I'm back at home this evening, I could add Ralph's comment I mentioned above.
> - Ralph does not like H&P, because H&P did not play according to Phase5's
> will (M$ methodes, U know)
Well, Ralph of course says that it were H&P and friends who started to cry when AI decided they'd like to use MorphOS in january...
> - Ralph wants to continue as before -> MorphOS and AmigaOS are now competing
As I said above, from what Ralph said, it rather looks like AI would want to boot the MorphOS-crew out...
And that really fits to what I'm thinking about AI's politics for monthes already, regarding their benefit from the community and why they saw a danger in MorphOS - because of course the handful of potential MorphOS-users never were a threat compared to millions of PDAs; but what AI did and do need are all those enthusiastic and competent developers who create the necessary software for AmigaDE and partly even the AmigaDE itself for free or at the max for "an apple and an egg" and who could prefer developing for MorphOS instead. Maybe it's been rather MorphOS a threat to AmigaDE than vice versa, which made AI suddenly changing their attitude regarding the real AmigaOS and the wishes of a big part of the community...
> - AmigaInc is the "king", there can not be two kings in Amiga World
No, there can and will be two kings - by the Amiga world breaking into two new worlds... But obviously a merge of MorphOS and AmigaOS would result into something much bigger than the sum of its parts. Now it seems there will be a final split, with those who are H&P-fans and those who just follow whoever owns "the name" going the "AmigaOS4/5"-way, and the others who prefer the MorphOS-("classic" AmigaOS-)philosophy and who prefer certain pieces of software (for example Voyager and Microdot) following Ralph and his friends.
Damn, I'd wish I wouldn't be an atheist - otherwise I could at least pray there would still happen a miracle, making them cooperate at last... Hm, at least those announcements Ralph did mention still didn't happen - maybe there currently might be still further talks between AI and MorphOS again...? No, I don't dare to hope it...
> - Morph fanatics attach AI & H&P ...
Well, just based on my very own observations during the last monthes, it seemed to be mostly the H&P-fans who showed such "allergic" reactions. But of course that impression may be caused just by attending different forums from those you do follow.
> This all is so familiar for me, U C my father has a bee farm.
:-)
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 36 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Nice reading:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amigaone/message/1701
(H&P, Ralph, AI)
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 37 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Heine on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (priest):
And here the at least a bit more substantial (than what AI/HP
are telling) quotes from Ralph:
-----8<--------
Quote 1:
AmigaInc wanted to use MorphOS for amigaos 4.0 in january but that caused
a mental erruption at Hyperion&Partners that lead to a turn of the decision
so that Amiga's 4.0 will be WarpOS with Picasso96, Warp3d and maybe other
things. We wish them real luck with decision:-)
-----8<--------
Quote 2:
Amiga Inc made us clear with their decisions in february that there
is no base for a cooperation for several reasons.
o technical. they presented a complete ridiculous plan for every
developer which read it.
o business
o and very important also amiga inc's future for exconomic and
technical sw management.
Some may call this arrogant but this isn't about me the "best" which
i'm not but with obnoxious decisions with amiga inc's management.
If they wanna use WarpOS as their base...fine..they get it for free
and H&P does everything for amiga inc's IP with pre financing.
But to suggest that we should integrate our modules which were designed
for morphos ABI/API/HAL enviroment into the warpos framework which
wasn't designed for this is well ridiculous and i don't even talk
about the political issues involved here which are far more
annoying.
It's like asking to run MacOS X drivers inside Linux PPC.
Amiga Inc decided in Febrary that they wanna depend on H&P and
Eyetech to deliver them a new OS base for their ""DE"".
P.S. We all wish the amiga market would be a happy place with an
united force but this is just not the case anymore since CBM
died. Everybody has its own interests and there is no mutual
cooperation possible where these interests collide expecially
when there is a lack of respect.
I'm speaking here openly about these issues...does anybody here
think amiga inc or hyperion&partner documents their opinions
and real happenings as openly. I don't think so.
Has anybody ever asked if perhaps H&P used the Predator HW
designer to design a HW for their enviroment so that they
have some politicial instrument at Amiga Inc. to avoid the
situation of Bplan/MorphOS with SW and HW and them having
nothing besides an older emulation.
H&P/Eyetech controlls the AmigaOne 1200 HW as we control
our HW. The other side used this instrument already last
year when our request was denied...and this has not happened
because Eyetech wouldn't have wanted it. They only care for
a HW they can sell.
Ok..enough for now:-)
-----8<--------
Quote 3:
Because I'm more than convinced that there won't be more than
one real supported OS in this market...despite the announcement on the
fair.
Eyetech AmigaOS 4.X explanation : Comment 38 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by sppllllttt on 10-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Dave):
>I hope Newtek will say YES :)
And then what, so you get a driver for the card?! Who's going to write the software? You?!
ToasterNT is all about the software. The board is a simple video conduit. It does no DSP or encoding. It simply brings raw video to the computer for the system to process. The software tells the computer to do the rest.
So, you see, even if Newtek spent the money to make a driver, which I can't see them doing because there would be no return on the investment, someone would have to write the software for the board to be of use to an Amiga OS.
Newtek kept Commodore alive in the early 90's when Commodore wouldn't even advertise in magazines. The only high-quality print ads for Amiga systems came from Newtek.
Commodore's apathy and ineptitude nearly killed Newtek, but Newtek managed to roll with it and get back in the saddle by porting Lightwave to several platforms. Now they are finally getting what Toaster/Flyer could have been with Toaster2.
It took years to get to this point. What possible benefit would Newtek have to spend the time and money to develop a driver for that board? So they can travel back in time? So they can flirt with bankruptcy again?
Newtek owes Amigans nothing. Amigans owe Newtek, because without Newtek, your precious little Amiga system would have lost its worth years ago. But because Newtek still managed to sell Amiga systems through Toaster sales well after Commodore bit the big one, there was still an Amiga market.
This probably does not apply as much to the Europeans, who, unlike North Americans, actually bought Amigas as a personal computer. Over here, it was never a popular, or saleable machine on its own. It was something you had to buy to be able to run the Video Toaster.
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