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[Rant] Former 'killer' Amiga applicationsANN.lu
Posted on 15-Apr-2001 00:44 GMT by Christian Kemp34 comments
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RedPencil writes: "Only 5 years ago there were all sorts of high-class applications for AmigaOS. Now it seems, all the work and techniques in these applications is just sitting in these software companies archives." The odds are that development work on these programs will never be restarted, so it seems a total waste for the source code to be just sitting there. The software companies won't make any money out of it any more.

I know this idea has been banded around before but nothing has come of it, it'd be cool if we lobbied these companies to release their source code to the Amiga community, where perhaps some developers can start to improve and continue work on these great programs.

I am talking about things like Wordworth, SAS/C, Imagine, Cinema 4D, Maxon C++, Final Writer.... all the great programs that made the Amiga great as a serious computer. If AmigaOS 4.0 and above is to survive we need applications - and there are tonnes of them sitting around gathering dust... if only we could persuade some software companies to release them then it would give AmigaOS 4 (and AROS and MorphOS) and really good flying start!

What does everyone else think?

Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 1 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by dennis on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
What about drawstudio as well?
for the most part though i dont think many companies on any platform have ever been interested in open source software - games companies have been the most interesting with the number of games whose source has been opened up.
when it comes to apps. i would be happier with people porting the various gnu software. for my part i am only starting out with c/c++ and so i want to look at stuff thats comandline based or has a minimal gui and port those when i am able just for fun.
anyways we have new apps that could do with support like photogenics for example and ideally have NEW progs made for the future using Rebol for example and taking advantage of the concept of distributed computing, tao`s vp and java -be risky & new to be revolutionary not the same old clones
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 2 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Johno on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (dennis):
All those sound great!! How about we get Octamed SoundStudio as well for OS4/Morphos ? that was one hell of a killer music app.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 3 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
It's a great idea, unfortunately the matter of releasing a program as "open source" can be a complicated legal affair as the rights to a program can be passed/sold from person to person until nobody is actually sure anymore who owns the rights. I'll use the release of OS3.9 as an example - nuff said?
Another good example is David Braban/Ian Bell's "Elite" program. Both programmers want it to be openly available as a free download (and it can be found with these people's permission on various sites in it's many forms). However, the source is not available and David cautions visitors to his site that the rights to Elite may lie in a company who bought them off Ian Bell, but as he and Ian are no longer talking he cannot confirm this and cannot release such source in case of future legal action.
It's sad, but it could mean that if a programmer releases his source code to "program x" because "company y" who bought the rights is no longer trading, but isn't aware that "company y" sold their rights to the software to "company z" who IS still trading and has a very bored and very active legal department, then he could end up living in a van down by the river.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 4 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by twice-a-day on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
what about audiomaster and movieshop. Or Gold Disk's ProPage or FinalCalc?
I hope somebody is gonna update that software!
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 5 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Well, it would be great to see the great Amiga apps updated and ported to
AmiOne. Unfortunately some of the developers/companies are no longer around
or are busy with different things these days. Developers could make
clones of the popular programs though. Most of the older software could
do with a rewrite by now anyway so producing completely new versions of
some of the Amiga apps would be a great idea and not much more work than
porting old source. I would love to see a new version of Brilliance for
instance. Many companies are reluctant to release their stuff as open source
because they can't do any quality control on anything released and they
do not benefit from it. Liscencing to developers is a different story...
It's going to be cool to see all the best software back on Amiga again!
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 6 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by john on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Kelly Samel):
Yeah Brilliance is still my favorite animation program ever. Also this program never ever has crashed on me. Never could say that about DPaint V ........
Trouble is, iirc, Digital Creations (the owners of Brilliance) got taken over by Play Inc ( a load of ex- newtek top bods) and they seemed to have less than no interest in anything Amiga :~(
-john
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 7 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Paul McCord on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
The Amiga always used to have it's fair share of application software - It was never just a "Games Machine", it was something that could be taken seriously for it's other roles such as high end graphics and animation etc. At the moment we all want the new Amiga platform to meet with success but unless it is supported by plenty of decent applications then it will never be a great success.
I want to see a modern day Deluxe Paint type of application that put some powerful art/animation features within reach of the casual user. I would love to see a decent Word Processor and Spreadsheet programs, as Microsoft has these markets more or less sewn up - Wouldn't it be fantastic to see the Amiga platform supporting a genuine competitor to Microsoft's core products?
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 8 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
If it happens you will be really dissapointed. The effort to port most of these ( especially Brilliance ) to another platform is just too much.
There are only a small percentage of decent programmers left on the Amiga. It would be interesting to do a study on who is left. I would guess:
30% cheapskates who cannot afford to buy a PC ;-)
10% programmers who can actually write decent Amiga software
40% zealots who just like to join one faction or another for "belonging" sake most of whom are currently branding anyone that has a different opinion as malcontents etc. ( kids )
20% users.
So, with the 10% programmers what can we do? I bet we only got a small fraction of their time.
The only thing is to follow one of these courses:
(1) LEARN TO PROGRAM DECENT SOFTWARE AND WRITE IT YOUR DAMN SELF
(2) BUY AMIGA SOFTWARE FROM PEOPLE LIKE CLOANTO, HYPERION ETC TO GIVE THEM THE CAPITAL TO DEVELOP IT FOR YOU
(3) BLUDGEON THE 10%ERS INTO WRITING IT FOR YOU
Fellow Amigans, I say to you get up off your arses and learn to write code. ;-)
( or just port GNU based applications - "oh no its a build break - what do I do???" )
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 9 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by RedPencil on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
>( or just port GNU based applications - "oh no its a build break - what do I >do???" )
If it's a program with a GUI, it'd be generally quite difficult to port...
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 10 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by nOw2 on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
People have tried to get sources for old Amiga programs. Some share/freeware
authors are glad to see their work continued. Some want so much money the
only way to get it back would be to port to the PC and forget the Amiga. Some
simply don't care.
I've spent a fair amount of money getting sources, but I'm so tired of being
ignored that *I* simply don't care anymore.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 11 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (RedPencil):
Not if someone gets X running on top of amigaos4.x, or?
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 12 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (nOw2):
In some cases companies have used much of the Amiga source code again
in their PC versions, so they can't release it.
In other cases, the source code is on a hard drive in a broken or dead
Amiga, and cannot be retrieved. (If you put an A4000 away in a
cupboard for a few months, the battery will run down, leak and destroy
the motherboard).
In one case an A3000 with the source code to an important program was
offered as a bundle, but I don't think anyone bought it.
Some of the best Amiga programs (Brilliance, ProPage, ProDraw) were
written in assembler, which is not so easy to either port or update.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 13 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
I'll admit rewriting some of the Amiga's major programs is
going to be a lot of work but I believe it can be done. The
Amiga OS is much better than it was 5 years ago with things like
AHI and RTG systems, MUI, ReAction, AMarquee etc. it is becoming
much easier to code for the Amiga. Since new systems will have
a lot more power in gfx and processing it will not be nearly as
hard to make an application or game run at usable speeds either.
The standardizing of AmigaOS components is continuing and as a
developer I see a great possibility for new software. Apps can
be written in C, C++, Rebol, Assembler, SHEEP, Arexx, Java and
even VP on upcoming systems this helps make things easier too.
Maturing development tools are making the "%10" programmers into
a force to be reckoned with. ;)
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 14 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Georg Steger on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Don Cox):
> In some cases companies have used much of the Amiga source code again
> in their PC versions, so they can't release it.
Yes. That's what I was told by Maxon when I asked them about open
sourcing the Amiga version of Cinema 4D (even if it just was an
old Amiga version, ie. not 4.0) a couple of months ago :-(
BTW: They said, that for their other Amiga Maxon products (MaxonC++, etc.)
they were just the publisher. So maybe the chances to get the source for some
of these other titles are probably much higher, if you ask their real
authors.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 15 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by den on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
only 10% of amiga users are coders .....
Hang on look what one man does for nintendo!!! that bloke who does the mario games and others ... maybe all some amiga programmers need is to be able to drop those dayjobs that provide extra income they need,
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 16 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Paul McCord):
Yeah, it would be nice to see a modern day "Deluxe Paint Mellinium" with updated support for some modern formats and an improved interface. Wonder what Electronic Arts would say... :)
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 17 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Cooke on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (dennis):
Drawstudio is STILL available!!!
You can buy it from Kickstart User Group's software arm : - Kicksoft
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 18 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by denis on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Tony Cooke):
drawstudio is still available - like image engineer is but development is OVER. so they may as well not be available anymore as they will age and age some more.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 19 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (nOw2):
In some cases companies have used much of the Amiga source code again
in their PC versions, so they can't release it.
In other cases, the source code is on a hard drive in a broken or dead
Amiga, and cannot be retrieved. (If you put an A4000 away in a
cupboard for a few months, the battery will run down, leak and destroy
the motherboard).
In one case an A3000 with the source code to an important program was
offered as a bundle, but I don't think anyone bought it.
Some of the best Amiga programs (Brilliance, ProPage, ProDraw) were
written in assembler, which is not so easy to either port or update.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 20 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by nOw2 on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Don Cox):
>In some cases companies have used much of the Amiga source code again
>in their PC versions, so they can't release it.
Experienced this. Offered a licensing deal, was ignored.
>In other cases, the source code is on a hard drive in a broken or dead
>Amiga, and cannot be retrieved. (If you put an A4000 away in a
Experienced this, offered to buy the A4000. Then offered to ship it from
<far away country> to me, rescue the source from the HD, then ship it back.
Then offered instructions on how to get it via Linux. Ignored for a year and
a half now.
>In one case an A3000 with the source code to an important program was
>offered as a bundle, but I don't think anyone bought it.
If I have enough to cover what somebody wants (and leave me with 2 months of
beans & vodka money), I will do things like this.
>Some of the best Amiga programs (Brilliance, ProPage, ProDraw) were
>written in assembler, which is not so easy to either port or update.
If I were worried about that I wouldn't have bothered at all :)
Believe me, you should see some of the C code people write. It's no wonder
they don't want anyone else to see it! :)
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 21 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Solar (BAUD) on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
SAS/C - SAS Institute is still making money with their compilers IMHO, and thus will probably not give away their source base.
Cinema 4D - still around on the PC, so Maxon won´t give away the code for this one either.
Maxon C++ - the compiler core was AFAIK done by Mr. Gelhar, who subsequently sold his product to H&P when his contract with Maxon ran out. (Ever wondered why the bugs in MC++ 4 and Storm 1/2 were so similar? ;-) ) StormC is meanwhile based on gcc, but again I doubt that they will just release the source.
All this is a nice idea, but in many cases, the code is the base for stuff companies are still making money of. Fat chance that they will give it away.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 22 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Kelly Samel):
Don't be silly. To talk about how things like Amiga Component Model along with
old and new programming languages are going to ease development is really nothing
more than just a half filled hope. Sorta like witchcraft but playing around with
a different batch of ingreedients.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 23 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Jaeson Koszarsky on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Imagine was listed in the initial post. Imagine is still being developed.
Slowly perhaps but it's gradually being ported over to PPC. Updates are
released every couple months.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 24 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Zonkk on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Jaeson Koszarsky):
Yup. Imagine is still being worked on and updated bit by bit.
The guy in charge is Martin McKenzie and the web site to see how its coming
along is http://www.cadtechnologies.co.uk/
Just to let you know what is in the pipeline:
OpenGL
PPC
Stand alone rendering engine
New GUI
other nice stuff
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 25 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Zonkk on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Johno):
Well, there is a new version of Octamed Soundstudio (V2) in development.
A Beta version was released to the public many months ago but development has
apparently come to a halt due to uncertainty.
But to see what the programmers themselves have to say about it - and for you to
have a positive impact on the outcome, pop along to:
http://www.octamed.co.uk/index3.htm
Just to cut n paste some of the text:
"Currently a NEW Amiga version 2 of OctaMED SoundStudio is slowly being
developed. However, the new authors have received very little
input from potential users and are unsure as to how
many customers a new Amiga version might have."
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 26 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Zonkk on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Darrin):
Dave Braben might have given up on releasing the source code for Elite, but he is
going to release the source for Frontier and First Encounters.
He has set up a special web site for this purpose at:
http://www.eliteclub.co.uk/
To quote:
"The Elite Club is a project which aims to bring new life to the Elite series of games, particularly Frontier and First Encounters - in advance of the
release of Elite 4. Despite it being many years since their release, there is still a great deal of interest in them, confirmed by the number of mails we
at Frontier Developments received following the original Elite Club announcement. The idea is to allow people to freely download the games as
shareware, and also allow people to access the source code and legitimately update the games - bringing them up to date with current technology.
We also hope that the creators of some of the Elite/Frontier tribute games will join the Club, as this will provide a support network for developers, and
also allow these games to be set in the Elite universe."
So I think that when the code is eventually released, there might be some smart enthusiatic
Amiga coders who would take up the challenge of porting it to take advantage of
the slighter better hardware that has come around in the last few years since Frontier was
released.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 27 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (john):
Actually, Play Inc. is no more. They ran out of money a few months ago, got acquired by one of their spin-offs (PSMG) who have changed their name to
Globalstreams (after acquiring company of same name). They are in the business of leasing Globecaster streaming media production systems to high-price clients.
No more Snappy. No more Gizmos. No more Kiki Stockhammer. [sniff]
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 28 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by DanDude on 16-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Zonkk):
the halt on development of OSS v2 was really disappointing. The moment it is released I would buy it. I was really counting on some new features I begged for.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 29 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 16-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Yeah, OSS V2 would be great to see, i and many others im sure still use v1.
I would look forward to OS4 even more of i new there was a chance of OSS v2 coming for it.
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 30 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 16-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Zonkk):
Thanks for that info. David was lucky in that Frontier (and FFE)were his own projects and he kept the rights to himself. I can't wait for Elite 4, however he rejected making an Amiga version available, but hopefully the new hardware and software due to be released will change this. Failing that, perhaps the wonderfull Hyperion people might try a port ;)
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 31 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Day Walker on 17-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
HAH! I laugh at your wishes for Deluxe paint souce. However, a more viable solution you will find here http://www.cfxweb.net/files/Detailed/736.shtml
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 32 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Michael Green on 18-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
It would be good if we could set up a system to auction off the sourcecode of programs no longer under development - with the proceeds going to the original company.
(Then someone else would be able to continue development if the original company has lost interest.)
MG
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 33 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Tony Gore on 19-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Day Walker):
Hey, EA don't have to give up the source code...they can just do the update themselves! ;)
Former 'killer' Amiga applications : Comment 34 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by joey on 20-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (RedPencil):
>If it has a GUI it would be quite different to port...
Why not porting some GUI stuff then ?
There is an effort on sourceforge going on to port GTK
The Tcl GUI could be ported as well, I believe. This could even allow Python
GUIs being ported.
But this is just a bunch of assumptions, I am not aware of the difficulties.
However, some projects (like http://www.entity.cx) could be ported to MUI quite easily I believe. MUI would need the one or other additional MCC for that but especially this Entitiy stuff is quite platform independant (XML with inlined code (JS,perl,Python etc.) describing a GUI and the application.)
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