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[News] The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak!ANN.lu
Posted on 12-May-2001 02:00 GMT by Christian Kemp33 comments
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Pietro Leone wrote: "An interesting article about the AmigaOS4.0. What the developers think about it? Follow the links to diff, an Italian vertical portal about Amiga, Linux and other non-Windows OS: Italian version and English version" [ Not an article as such, but an interview with Juergen Haage, Olaf Barthel, Hyperion Entertainment and Tobias Abt (Picasso'96). - CK ]
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 1 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Rafo on 11-May-2001 22:00 GMT
Looks like J. Haage had a very important phone call during the interview. :-)
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 2 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-May-2001 22:00 GMT
How old is this interview? Tobias Abt does not know his exact task
concerning OS4.0? Hell, I think OS4.0 is in development _now_?!
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 3 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by nOw2 on 11-May-2001 22:00 GMT
Not totally confidence inspiring :)
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 4 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
Well afaik all of the OS4 developers have signed NDA's so they're not
exactly allowed to speak freely on what they are doing (unless they are
willing to pay a VERY hefty fine).
Maybe he just didn't want to take the risk of going bankrupt ?
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 5 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
Hmm, I'd guess he would have said "I am not allowed to tell you" in
this case wouldn't he? :-)
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 6 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by dagon on 11-May-2001 22:00 GMT
...and AmigaOne is supposed to be ready until summer? with what OS?
They haven't even start development. I guess will have to wait
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 7 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 11-May-2001 22:00 GMT
This has to be a VERY old interview.
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 8 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion Entertainment on 11-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (dagon):
Development of OS 4 HAS started. Check your sources.
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 9 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 11-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion Entertainment):
Hi
So, does that mean a working prototype of AmigaOne board exists ?
Or are they developing stuff on P5 boards ?
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 10 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 12-May-2001 22:00 GMT
But RTG development hasn't started yet?
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 11 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Klauke on 12-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (David Scheibler):
Who says RTG graphics has to be done by the Picasso team?
AmigaInc. wants to take OS developement back and this just would be a very nice piece to start with. :)
2ct
Ciao, Alex
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 12 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Klauke on 12-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Sinan Gurkan):
> So, does that mean a working prototype of AmigaOne board exists ?
Isn't the Eyetech AmigaOne in beta stage? ;-)
You remember the first presentation of an Amiga ever? At that time, 1984, was this 'Amiga' really a 'computer in a box'? Or how many external boards were hidden under the desk? And the OS was not developed on that hardware, but on hardware where pieces of the Amiga HW design were made accessible.
Ciao, Alex
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 13 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by achilleas on 12-May-2001 22:00 GMT
the Amiga can survive if...
if it becomes the thing it was : home computer. That means (in my mind) : 1) fixed hardware; a GForce 2MX or Kyro II board, 300 MHz PPC or ARM CPU, soundblaster live, I/O for television/video, embedded joypad ports, embedded DVD ROM, 10 GB hard disk, 56K modem etc 2) fixed software; EEPROM with the basic O/S which is transferred to Ram at boot time; after that, rest of the O/S is loaded from hard disk; the included hard disk will contain a pre-configured O/S that is ready to go. 3) accompanied with full hardware & software manual plus C/C++ development environment on CDROM 3) accompanied with an Office suite for home use 4) accompanied with a standards compliant (HTML 4.0) web-browser price around $300-$400; you buy it, you hook it to the telly and voila...cheap web-surfing, cheap DVD player, cheap multimedia, and above all that a computer to do the calculations and write those CVs and letters. And a damn good game machine, too. It will sell like hot cakes, for two reasons : 1) people are tired of the problems having with the PC and MS Windows/Linux 2) a typical good PC (that is able to run all of todays bloatware) costs around $700 3) when DirectX is established, we all should cash out for a GForce3 anyway(which costs around the money mentioned above for the home computer), because the older cards will not run anything in respectable frame rates 4) it would be almost portable (one unit, like the old Amigas 1200-600) but without the propriatery hardware used by todays portable PCs, because it would use standard hardware; I remember a friend who stuffed his A1200 in his suitcase and travelled with it!
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 14 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 12-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (dagon):
Yes they have started developement. OS4 beta is being worked on as I write this...
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 15 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 12-May-2001 22:00 GMT
OS4 was started before OS3.5 was even a tangible thought. It was the point that was realized that OS4 would take a new hardware upgrade or at the very least a rom upgrade so 3.5 was (originally to be released as 3.2 iirc) developed. Now, why would a company want to shoot themselves in the foot by creating 3.5 and not making any of the components available to further development? OS4 is mostly finished and the beta testers are working out the bugs (I hope they are more thorough this time though) so when the hardware is done, the OS will be ready for it.
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 16 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by U. Beckers on 12-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Anonymous):
How do you know this?
Please tell us how do you know about this.
Otherwise it´s only vaporware till there is something official.
Regards
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 17 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 13-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (achilleas):
Man, you should stop and take a breath every once in a while as well as reread your arguments that you post. I was going to dig in and say the route being taken by these suggestions is a lost cause, but then I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say. Let's recap/paraphrase your message for anyone who might have gotten lost though, I think that should help others.
> Part 1: The Amiga can survive if:
> 1) Amiga needs nVidia and EMU10K as well as propriatary embedded componentry.
The AmigaONE will have the EMU10K processing. nVidia is a lost cause unless someone can get the licensing agreements direct from the nVidia group. The last time I heard they weren't even going to bother with other platforms due to them wanting the X-Box to be "all that".
> 1a)TV/Out connections and propriatary ports.
Why not USB or FireWire? Why regular TV/Outs? What about utilizing HDTV standards?
> 2) Software on ROM as it is now with a one type install of the OS on the main
> HD.
I like this, but I want the option of what to install and what not to install rather than shoveling hard and fast with other bloatware operating systems out there. Even some software that I've purchased and have a developers license for is total bloat only because I am not allowed to remove the advertising banner from the program (for anyone else who has one, I'm speaking of the Nomad MP3 player).
> 3) Full manual, online and offline.
No. This would be bad. Forcing people who do not want a manual to purchase the books? That's what bookstores are for. While I agree that there should be a full manual available I also believe that it should only be available for those who are willing to purchase it. I'd purchase it even if it was $250USD simply to have it, but not everyone would want to shell out an additional $30 for the OS to have the bound manual. The online manual should be identical to the bound manual though where as the bound manual should have additional information such as programming tips and OS secrets as well to make it worth the extra cost.
> 3a)C and C++ dev environment.
What, no VP, Sheep, or Java? Also, before going on about including a programming environment, make sure that developer tools are available for those who are looking at the option of programming. With that being said it should be done in an API fashion so those who do not want to program are not shoved into a corner and fed the junk they don't want.
> 3b)The OS needs to be bundled with an Office Suite.
As an OEM standpoint yes. Marketed as a stand alone OS, I don't understand this. Never should there be any form of "office suite" in an OS. What part of OS stands for "office suite". It's already Operating System, but it sure doesn't mean "office suite". I can see it now... what version of the OS are you using... oh, XP... no, not the OS, but the OS.
> 4) a good browser.
Agreed, but nothing topnotch should be bundled. Something that is a lightweight do-all type of browser would be perfect. That way, there is no price fixing on other browsers as well as "stealing the spotlight" from other browser developers isn't done. The SE version of AWeb was perfect. It supports all of the HTML 3.2 standards, has a very well done JavaScript interface, but still leaves the user to desire a better product. Thus the full version of AWeb or one of the other browser options out there.
> Part 2: It will sell like hot cakes, for two reasons:
> 1) there is no fine medium between linux, mac, windows.
This is indeed true, there is no fine line there. However, unless people know more about the Amiga, that fine line will never be defined.
> 2) good PCs are expensive.
Oh boy. A good PC can be purchased for about $400 or so today. When the X-Box is released or the PS2 attachements are done, the same will be true with both of those. So this is probably a bad arguement.
> 3) Everyone should have a GForce3.
nVidia can rot in hell for all I care about their products. the card sucks for anything 2D and I have yet to be impressed by their 3D quality standards. Also, I thought you said two reasons?
> 4) Almost portable.
That's what a laptop is for. Portability. We all remember the days of the P.A.W.S systems. I don't want to go back to that. I still have a friend of mine that uses the C65 for his portable. If Amiga is going to create something that is portable, it needs to be a Portable, not some inbetween conglomeration of wires that's a psuedo-quasi-home/portable system. If they are going to make it portable, then aim for nothing but portability sacrificing speed and storage as needed. If they are going for a home system, don't worry about portability until the very last part of the design.
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 18 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by A3K on 13-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (the man in the shadows):
I agree with almost everything you said, but you lost me on the Browser argument.
Amiga is severly lacking in the browser area. There isn't one Amiga browser that does what it should do. Sure they are robust (sortof) and highly configurable (if unstable) but quite frankly the layout engines and functionality stink.
There are a lot of sites that look wrong in any of them, and I mean a lot. I inquired about it and was told it was M$'s fault because of 'blah blah excuse blah', so for the heck of it, I dloaded and installed Shapeshifter, MacOS 7.5, FreePPP and Netscape.
Where my Amiga browsers couldn't do the layouts at all, an old version of Netscape for Mac 68K did them perfectly (albeit slow, even on an 060) under emulation. That is sad.
For Amiga to go mainstream, or even gain a larger market share, there has to be internet connectivity and a full featured browser with the OS, and there currently isn't one. I have used all of the Amiga browsers (registered V3 user), and I use Exploiter on a daily basis, and as much as it pains me to say it, the Amiga browsers are bad in comparison.
A car that looks nice and has every amenity is not a good car if it doesn't get you from point a to point b, and the Amiga browsers are still trying to figure out where point A is.
IMO the best option would be some sort of partnership to package a Netscape port with the OS. I had rather drive an edsel that works than a Ferrari with four flats and a blown engine. Having Netscape would give access to the plugins and provide more funcionality in one swoop than any browser on Amiga today.
Amiga doesn't want to step on the toes of the Browser developers, and that is commendible, but I don't see a lot of choices unless Aweb can improve greatly. Ibrowse seldom gets updated at all, and Voyager appears to be positioning themselves with the Morphos effort.
Espial may be great, but it is a ways away from hitting Amiga.
Sorry for rambling, almost done.
I know that the Amiga browser developers don't get a lot of money off of it because the numbers are so small, and it is great that they are even still developing for Amiga. Unfortunately, I don't think Amiga can afford to cripple their future by remaining loyal to a subpar product, if there is a better option available. The future rides on it, and sooner or later they will have to realize that.
If mom and pop are going to buy a computer for junior, its ability on the web will be a legitimate question that they will ask.
The list of what Amiga browsers can do online is shorter than the list of what they cannot do, and a PowerPC based Amiga will be more expensive than a Wintel crate that comes ready to surf, listen to realaudio, watch realvideo, watch flash anims (flash on V3 is poor, but an effort at least, but mom and pop don't give points for effort)etc... you get the idea.
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 19 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 13-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Alex Klauke):
McEwen and Moss said so many time in the IRC.
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 20 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by nick on 13-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (the man in the shadows):
> The AmigaONE will have the EMU10K processing. nVidia is a lost cause unless someone can get the licensing agreements
> direct from the nVidia group. The last time I heard they weren't even going to bother with other platforms due to them wanting
> the X-Box to be "all that".
That must explain why you can get vVidia cards in Macs. lol
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 21 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by nick on 13-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (nick):
Ooops. I meant nVidia, of course.
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 22 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (nick):
> That must explain why you can get vVidia cards in Macs. lol
Microsoft owns part of Mac... I'm sure that their weight being thrown around is what gave Mac the ability to develop for it. Not only that but Mac didn't have any of the nVidia cards until after the G4 Macs. Before then they did nothing but ATI. Two years ago the G3 iMac was released and the sales of those units were amazing, proving that you don't need speed (or a decent operating system) to get noticed.
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 23 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Andrea Vallinotto on 13-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Darrin):
Dear Darrin, plase define OLD.
I've checked my emails and can tell you the exact dates I had these answers:
Juergen Haage: 12-april
Olaf B. : 15/17-april
Hyperion: 17-april
Tobias Abt: 25-april.
The reasons why it was published a bit late are different. Some are pretty
technical (translation, the site admin of www.diff.org had to do some editing) but also
Tobias Abt's answer was way late, as you can see. (Anyway, thanks a lot Tobias for answering!)
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 24 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 13-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Andrea Vallinotto):
I guess my definition of "OLD" must be "ONE MONTH" then :)
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 25 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Yoris on 13-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Andrea Vallinotto):
Hi Andrea :)
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 26 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 14-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (the man in the shadows):
Man in the shadows you are clearly wrong, please investigate your "insider facts" a bit closer, I know you have a vested interest in amiga (amiga.org) but this path was chosen Dec/Jan and at that point Amiga was looking at MorphOS, which says a lot about your statement as to PPC being worked on before 3.5 (remember GW owned amiga at the time 3.5 was released).
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 27 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 14-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (anonymous):
> Man in the shadows you are clearly wrong, please investigate your "insider
> facts" a bit closer, I know you have a vested interest in amiga (amiga.org)
> but this path was chosen Dec/Jan and at that point Amiga was looking at
> MorphOS, which says a lot about your statement as to PPC being worked on
> before 3.5 (remember GW owned amiga at the time 3.5 was released).
I'm sorry, but I was there at Gateway handling the email that came in inquiring about Amiga and what the future of Amiga was. At the time my email address was webmaster@gateway.com. There was many a time that I talked with Rick Snyder, Jeff Schindler, Jim Collas, and Bill McEwen to name a few for assistance and counsiling on the comments I gave to Amiga users inquiries. I even had the cell phone number of Jeff Schindler in my left pocket and BillM's home phone number on roledex in case I ran into questions which I couldn't answer due to the NDA's. If I have posted the wrong information, then the information given to me was incorrect for a reason. Why I would be given incorrect information to handle inbound traffic (specifically Amiga-users inquiries) where the core function of my job was to not give out any false pretenses of the information is beyond me. I saw most of what happened with Amiga before the media and PR team got their hands on it. H&P pushed for a PPC native OS right along the side of Petro (to be coid the term OS4 at the time). The Gate-Amiga board said "not at this time" asking for something that wouldn't cost nearly as much and left it at that. 3.5 (at that time 3.2) was another option on the slate that was approved. Shortly following a month or so after the last meeting, many people were let go and a few even resigned; the most shocking resignation was Jim Collas.
Having been there, on the inside, I couldn't care less if you question my "insider's information". To fully appriciate and understand the tragedy of what happened you really had to be there. If you need proof that I was there, in Wired Magazine, March 2000, page 236 top right corner you will find a few quotes made by me who is written down as one of the webmasters of Gateway. I've also seen the article online at Wired at one point in time but didn't have the link readily available.
Anything else I might be "clearly wrong" about?
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 28 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 14-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (A3K):
> Amiga is severly lacking in the browser area. There isn't one Amiga browser
> that does what it should do. Sure they are robust (sortof) and highly
> configurable (if unstable) but quite frankly the layout engines and
> functionality stink.
You have a very good point. However at the same time you are looking at taking away the revenue of some of the developers out there that have done nothing but develop browsers and other internet software for a living. Case being Vapor and Amitrix. What would happen if Amiga came bundled with a cirppled suite of internet software that was better than what is currently available for the Amiga? Would you purchase other bits of internet software that did the same thing but less functional or with a bad layout engine in comparison? Bundling the OS with non-OS features like a browser raises the question of price fixing and if it is for the benefit of the future AmigaOS versions. If an OS is to be bundled with anything else, the bundle needs to be done by the OEM, not Amiga. Just my personal opinion.
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 29 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by VP on 14-May-2001 22:00 GMT
Has work on the Amiga OS 4 begain, as from this interview some of the main people needed to do the work, havent been told what to do! how dose any one know that work has begain with out see it?! I do hope that Amiga will set up a Os 4.0 site soon so then we will know that somthing is going on at least. PS: dose any one know will the new OS run on the Imac the specs are almost the same!
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 30 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 14-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (VP):
I think there is no way how OS4.0 could run on iMac (except via UAE).
But if Apple (or someone else) implements a "compatibility layer"
for OS4.2 or for OS5.0, then it could run.
(it would benefit both Apple HW sales and Amiga's SW sales... not a lot, though...)
r.
priest
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 31 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Andrea V. on 14-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Ben Yoris):
Salut BennyOne!
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 32 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 14-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Andrea Vallinotto):
Dear Andrea,
Further to my "age" comments on your article is the fact that it was described in the ANN header as an "interview". The reader then gets the impression that you had actually sat around a table with the parties in question to obtain the information. Granted you didn't type "interview" yourself (it was Chris), however there is no way that this could be described as such.
Now that you have disclosed that the parties were responding to individual emails then the fact that their answers are so blunt makes more sense. If you had managed to collar them in person then you would no doubt have followed up on their more "obscure" replies and bled some more information from them. The effects of a NDA are now apparent.
Another point worth noting is that "NEWS" refers to current events and the fact that these replies are at least a month old means that their value as "news" is minimal. Imagine if your daily newspaper only reported on events that happened last month? Don't get me wrong here, I am glad you went to the effort of emailing them and publishing the replies, but as a result of the delay in bringing the replies to public attention AND not dating the article to reflect the actual reply dates you ended up "spinning" a scaremongering article which does nothing more that undermine Amiga Inc. By undermining I refer to the fact that it "looks" like it is a current "interview" and it "looks" like Amiga Inc and their partners have actually done bugger-all since announcing OS4.x - NOT TRUE.
I'm sure this was not your intention, but is simply a reflection of how your article appears to others due to it's lack of clarity, dated material and "added" comments.
all the best,
Darrin
The future AmigaOS 4.0: the developers speak! : Comment 33 of 33ANN.lu
Posted by A3K on 14-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (the man in the shadows):
>You have a very good point. However at the same time you are looking at taking >away the revenue of some of the developers out there that have done nothing >but develop browsers and other internet software for a living. Case being >Vapor and Amitrix.
Vapor appears to be positioning themselves with the morphos effort anyway, and they are not strictly a browser company. I think AmIRC is a much better product than V3.
Amitrix is a little different in that they have been working with Amiga Inc for some time. I am sure they are a good company, but Aweb isn't useful for much more than reading .html docs.
Frankly, web browsers have reached the point that GUI's have. In order to be a viable OS, you have to have it coupled in a way that is definable (if a user wants to use another one they can) and simple to use. Scripting is fine, but mom and pop don't know arexx from T-rex (and are probably more frightened by the former than the latter). Network---> open browser and .html---> open browser need to be integrated (but unstrappable) from the getgo. Mom and pop will not buy a computer that is not fully functional, and like it or not a computer that does not have FULL internet capability and functionality from the getgo will not make it.
Relying on Amiga OEM's to provide this is a really bad idea.
Based on recent history, if AmigaONE retails for 1000DM in Germany, it will be $1000 is the USA. USA Amiga dealers will not bundle at a price worth considering. They are still selling base level dAmigas for $900 for goodness sake. You can build the darn thing for $300 or so buying the parts retail and have a nicer PC! I bought my CyberstormPPC and Cybervision PPC from Europe because it was almost $500 less than the USA price. I would have purchased here had it even been close ($100 more I would have bought). By the time a USA Amiga dealer gets through with the AmigaOne, it will be $2000+ if you ask them to bundle stuff with it. There are hundreds of examples that show this.
I wish it were different, but Amitrix cannot deliver a product (at least in anything resembling a timely manner) that is even remotely comparable to Netscape. Believe me, I mean it when I say that I wish they could.
If Amiga is going to be a viable platform for more than just the current user base, they are going to have to do something that will anger a few developers, but that is life. I don't like it any more than you do, but I don't want to see this effort to revive the old girl fail.
It really will not matter that much anyway. AmigaOS native on PPC will spur someone to port Mozilla in relatively short order. Its already on LinuxPPC.
When that happens, almost all browser sales for AmigaPPC will stop. AmiTrix and the others need to make what they can from the 68K & powerup board market.
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