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[News] Change of Warp3D statusANN.lu
Posted on 28-May-2001 14:48 GMT by Christian Kemp32 comments
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Hans-Joerg Frieden writes: "Hyperion Entertainment has decided to modify the status of Warp3D to an OEM-Product. Please find attached the full press release."
Hyperion Entertainment changes status of Warp3D V4

We would like to inform you that after extensive deliberation, Hyperion Entertainment has decided to upgrade the status of Warp 3D V4 from a freeware product to a commercial OEM product which will offered to Amiga hardware developers for a moderate license fee.

This decision was prompted by two major reasons:

  1. Hyperion Entertainment has reached an agreement with Amiga Inc. to incorporate Warp3D V4 into Amiga OS 4.x on a per unit royalty basis. Producers of zico compliant hardware (Amiga One etc.) will be required to license Amiga OS 4.x and will as such be paying indirectly for Warp 3D V4 drivers. It would be unacceptable to both Amiga Inc. and these hardware producers that they would be required to pay royalties for a product which other hardware producers would receive free of charge.
  2. Warp 3D started out as a freeware product developed by non-commercial developers to support the Virge and Permedia 2 chipsets. Compared to current chipsets, the Virge and Permedia 2 are extremely primitive and feature-poor. The effort and time needed to adequately support modern chipsets such as the Voodoo 3 and Matrox G450 with their rich and advanced feature-set is far greater than the effort required to support the Virge and Permedia 2 chipsets. Combined with the fact that there are currently no less than 7 different PCI product from three different manufacturers, it's clear that the effort required to support modern chipsets on all the different PCI hardware available goes far beyond the scope of a freeware project.
As the original Warp 3D developers have now moved on to commercial development, maintaining Warp 3D as a freeware product would entail that development of new Warp 3D drivers and extension of the Warp 3D API would be very slow as development could only take place "after hours".

This is not only not in the interest of Amiga users but it is also not in the interest of hardware producers and resellers who rely on the availability of Warp 3D drivers to successfully market their Amiga hardware.

Hyperion Entertainment fully understands that the company has a responsibility towards the Amiga community including the hardware producers because of its control over the Warp 3D API and no attempt has ever been made or will be made to exploit this position unfairly.

We have already succesfully negotiated agreements with Matay and DCE regarding Warp3D V4 support for the Voodoo 3 on their respective PCI hardware. We are therefore happy to report that Voodoo 3 drivers for these PCI solutions will be available shortly.

A similar proposal was made to Elbox but so far we have not received any reaction.

Users considering purchase of a PCI solution for Amiga and who are interested in high-performance 3D graphics should investigate the availability of Warp3D drivers prior to making their decision to opt for one or the other PCI solution.

It should also be noted that Warp3D will remain free for end users. Also, this only affects hardware producers. Software development with Warp3D is still free of charge, commercial and shareware products included.

Change of Warp3D status : Comment 1 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
This is great. The Warp3D team need ressources to support actively the new drivers. It should be the same for Cybergfx and Picasso 96.
I hope that hardware companies will understand that hardware is useless without right (and legal) software support.
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 2 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by its about time on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Christophe Decanini):
Yeah, probably it is for the better. People are waiting the Warp3D driver
for the Voodoo3 for ages and with this kind of license, Frieden's brothers
can allocate resources to finish it. BTW, does anybody know if Sam Jordan
is still working actively in the project? Everytime people talk about Warp3D
in Amiga forums, one of the Frieden brothers reply but never Sam. Or is Sam
very busy with his projects and he can't participate in forums?. And what is
he doing currently?
On the sad note, it seems that Elbox does not like to talk developers or, at
least, to pay for something that they think should be free :(
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 3 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (its about time):
Elbox is in a difficult situation now because Hyperion didn't mention that they will only support busboards with legal 2D drivers. So Elbox has to pay the P96 team AND hyperion in order to get a 3D driver. I think that Hyperion is the one playing little unfair right now because the whole P96<-> Elbox situation is not of their business. (But hey both the P96 team and hyperion are working on OS4.0).
I don't think that Elbox will pay the licence because:
1) They'll have to swallow their pride in the P96 issue (take a look at Ralph Schmidt to see how difficult that is)
2) The Mediator is targetted at 68k users anyway. 3D games require a lot of CPU power to, so a 3D driver is vitually useless if you have a 68k only
3) AmigaOS4.0 will include Warp3D and it runs on thei shark. Why bother now about a Warp3D driver while they'll get one with OS4.0 (They have payed a licence for that I guess)
But on the other hand.....Come on Elbox suprise me!! :)
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 4 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
"Users considering purchase of a PCI solution for Amiga and who are interested in high-performance 3D graphics should investigate the availability of Warp3D drivers prior to making their decision to opt for one or the other PCI solution."
Tsk tsk, now even Hyperion enters the arena :(
DCE and Matay will have =< OS39 Warp3D drivers
Eyetech AmigaONE 1200 and Mediator+SharkPPC will have Warp3D drivers included in AmigaOS4.0.
End of story......
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 5 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Alan Watson on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Amifan):
They should have paid the P96 developers in the first place.Would have
saved them a lot of bad press(they`ve even more to deal with now with
the Matay statement).I sincerely hope that Elbox have given up on
their idea of developing their own gfx system.That would not be a good
move......
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 6 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Gunne Steen on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
I have 3 questions about Warp3D to Hyperion and the team behind Warp3D.
1, Should the combination BlizzardPPC + Mediator PCI 1200 + Voodoo3
exceed the combination BlizzardPPC + BVisionPPC in performance
if Warp3D exists for the first combination ?
2, Will the combination CyberStormPPC + Prometheus + Voodoo3 exceed
the combination CyberStormPPC + CyberVisionPPC in performance when Warp3D
will be released for the first combination ?
3, Will the combination BlizzardPPC + G-Rex PCI 1200 + Voodoo3 exceed
the combination BlizzardPPC + BVisionPPC in performance when Warp3D will
be released for the first combination ?
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 7 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by JKD on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
To be honest, I am surprised it took Hyperion this long to make this decision.
It can`t have a been an easy one - I fully support them in this move.
ELBOX - Time to put your money where your nouth has so often been.
Best of luck to Hyperion,
Steve
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 8 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Amifan):
> "Users considering purchase of a PCI solution for Amiga and who are interested in
> high-performance 3D graphics should investigate the availability of Warp3D drivers prior to
> making their decision to opt for one or the other PCI solution."
> Tsk tsk, now even Hyperion enters the arena :(
Are you really this dumb?
They tell people to check that they are buying something that has/will have Warp3D so they don't loads of complaints from trolls like you demanding a Warp3D driver for whatever lame 3d card/pci board combo they have.
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 9 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Amifan):
> Elbox is in a difficult situation now because Hyperion didn't mention that
> they will only support busboards with legal 2D drivers.
There will be official P96 drivers for Mediator boards by the Picasso 96 team, so that's no problem for us.
Regards, Thomas
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 10 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Amifan):
> Tsk tsk, now even Hyperion enters the arena :(
We are not entering any "arena".
> DCE and Matay will have =< OS39 Warp3D drivers
Yes, because they are willing to pay us for them, in the same way as Amiga is willing to pay us for them
> Eyetech AmigaONE 1200 and Mediator+SharkPPC will have Warp3D drivers
> included in AmigaOS4.0.
That's because Amiga does pay the license costs. If Elbox is willing to accept our offer (and we are *not* asking much), then there will be drivers for Mediator as well....
> End of story......
What do you mean with "End of story" ?
Regards, Thomas
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 11 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Gunne Steen):
> 1, Should the combination BlizzardPPC + Mediator PCI 1200 + Voodoo3
> exceed the combination BlizzardPPC + BVisionPPC in performance
> if Warp3D exists for the first combination ?
Probably. The Voodoo is generally faster than the Permedia, right now, the only weak point is the bus speed, and the Mediator's paging architecture. If the packet fifo works on the mediator, the latter will no longer be a problem.
> 2, Will the combination CyberStormPPC + Prometheus + Voodoo3 exceed
> the combination CyberStormPPC + CyberVisionPPC in performance when Warp3D
> will be released for the first combination ?
That's a tough one. Right now, the speeds are roughly the same, because of the missing packet fifo, but I'm making progress with it, and tests indicate that there will be a huge speedup if everything works.
> 3, Will the combination BlizzardPPC + G-Rex PCI 1200 + Voodoo3 exceed
> the combination BlizzardPPC + BVisionPPC in performance when Warp3D will
> be released for the first combination ?
See 1.
Regards, Thomas
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 12 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Thomas Frieden):
To check if the board got Warp3D drivers....You have to move to OS4.0 anyway....
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 13 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
Are you really this dumb?
They tell people to check that they are buying something that has/will have Warp3D so they don't loads of complaints from trolls like you demanding a Warp3D driver for whatever lame 3d card/pci board combo they have.
I'm not demanding anything, but how can you know.....
You are not even smart enough to consider that 68k+Voodoo3 is kinda useless if you want to play 3D games (no I don't mean GlQuake or GlDoom) at minimum *playable* speeds.
So if you want to have some real speed on your Mediator then a shark is a *must*. But hey, the shark runs OS4.0? Doesn't the statement say that Warp3d V4 is licenced to OS4.0?
I'm not demanding anything because i'm not concerned that Mediator owners can use the 3D part of their voodoo3 one way or another. But if you just wish to call me a troll then just mail me....
Oh, and about some lame PCI/3D card combo...are you reffering to the voodoo3? Because the Mediator still beats the G-Rex......
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 14 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Amifan):
Well, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the 68060 + 3D combo out of hand.
First of all, there will be Realsoft 3D V4. Secondly, most likely Freespace will work on it as will games like GLQuake, the W3D version of Descent etc.
Finally, the 3D functionaly of say, a Voodoo 3, can be "abused" to accomplish 2D graphics.
It's undoubtedly true that some users who bought a Mediator, didn't buy it for the Voodoo 3 card.
But our license fee is low enough that this really doesn't have any real economic impact on the salesprice of the PCI busboards.
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 15 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Amifan):
Oh yes... talking about something you never used again... The only thing it beats
it in is the fact that it's not dependent on a ppc board and the fact that
it allows DMA *BETWEEN* pci cards. The gfx speed with the *CGX 4* drivers is
roughly the same.
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 16 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Again? So tell what am I talking about that I haven't used? Or are you just guessing *again*. I Actually had them both in my system. Yes even with the cgfx4 drivers. Did I say beat with great numbers? No just beat and that just what the Mediator does.
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 17 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Again? So tell what am I talking about that I haven't used? Or are you just guessing *again*. I Actually had them both in my system. Yes even with the cgfx4 drivers. Did I say beat with great numbers? No just beat and that just what the Mediator does.
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 18 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>First of all, there will be Realsoft 3D V4.
I's not a game ;-)
>Secondly, most likely Freespace will work on it as will games like GLQuake, the W3D version of Descent etc.
Yup, but apart from Freespace, that's not what I was talking about, (allthough I doubt that QLQuake will be that playable in higher resolutions)
>Finally, the 3D functionaly of say, a Voodoo 3, can be "abused" to accomplish 2D graphics.
Haven't thougth about that one.....
>It's undoubtedly true that some users who bought a Mediator, didn't buy it for the Voodoo 3 card.
I brought it for the voodoo3 :(
>But our license fee is low enough that this really doesn't have any real economic impact on the salesprice of the PCI busboards.
Well, I want Elbox to pay that licence too. But I just have the feeling that they wont :( Anyway...I'm sick of this piece of BlizzardPPC crap, so the Eyetech AmigaONE is next on my shopping list ( I've defended Elboxs @ss long enough). With a G3 and a Voodoo 3D combo I can finally install HereticII again... Maybe ShogoMAD is even more fun too (high detail, 16bit textures and all the lighting effects....
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 19 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Amifan):
Oh yes... In which account is it faster? GFX driver?
It is easily proved that G-Rex has a faster bus...
Also why do some programs that do run on a PIV or another P96
GFX card crash on the Mediator? Easy answer.... Because of the
driver... That's one of the reasons I wanted something with a PROPER
gfx driver...
(sorry for the rant)
I have been defending Elbox before you started doing it
until they did their crap with the P96 team and the crap
announcements about any PCI hardware except their own. This was
when I stopped supporting them...
I believe that AmigaONE 1200 or Pegasos are the best solutions...
It's nice to have PCI on your Amiga BUT.....
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 20 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Alan Watson on 28-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
How are things going with RealSoft 3D v4?I`m itching to get my hands
on it(having played around with the demo on a pc at work).The
subdivision surface modelling tools are tremendous,never mind the
animation system,the dynamics,surfacing ability.I could go on and
on....
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 21 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 28-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Alan Watson):
> How are things going with RealSoft 3D v4?I`m itching to get my hands
> on it(having played around with the demo on a pc at work).The
Uh, working on it ;)
> subdivision surface modelling tools are tremendous,never mind the
> animation system,the dynamics,surfacing ability.I could go on and
> on....
Yeah, the subdivision surfaces are really cool :)
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 22 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Thomas Frieden):
Hello Thomas
>> 1, Should the combination BlizzardPPC + Mediator PCI 1200 + Voodoo3
>> exceed the combination BlizzardPPC + BVisionPPC in performance
>> if Warp3D exists for the first combination ?
> Probably. The Voodoo is generally faster than the Permedia, right now,
> the only weak point is the bus speed, and the Mediator's paging
> architecture. If the packet fifo works on the mediator, the latter
> will no longer be a problem.
Maybee it should be a good salespoint for both Hyperion and Elbox if
you could come to some conclusion about this then, and if Warp3D
software will benefit from it.
Cheers Gunne
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 23 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 28-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Actually it hasn't got a fater bus. It depends on the accelerator u use it with....Take a look at a BlizzardPPC 040/25. 12MB/sec isn't that fast. Ok A BlizzardPPC 040/25 does only 8.6 MB/sec, but an Apollo1240/25 does 14MB/sec....
Strange uh....then try to compare a BlizzardPPC 060/50 to an Apollo060/50....then where's your faster bus? DCE is talking about theoretical maximum performance of 25MB/sec....
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 24 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 28-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Ofcourse an AmigaONE is a better sollution then a G3 expansion in a PCI busboard. In fact I changed my mind as soon as AmigaInc showed their plan about OS4.0. Since I don't like AmigaDE. My goal is to stay with the "classic" OS. Now with AmigaOS4.0, the Eyetech AmigaONE is the better sollution, maybe even Pegasos if they support AmigaOS4.0....
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 25 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 28-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Amifan):
Hehe a friend of mine has a BlizzardPPC603/260/060/66 Overclocked
with a G-Rex and gets 19.8mb/sec. Guess how much will it get on a
CyberStorm PPC...
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 26 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 28-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
That's odd, a friend of mine got a CyberstormPPC 060 (you know the one with the 64bit memorybus). and get about the same as a overclocked BlizzardPPC . Nice to see that those 16 extra Mhz can make such a difference to a normal BlizzardPPC (with a 32bit memorybus) which achives far lower busspeeds.....
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 27 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 29-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Amifan):
It's not the overclocked CPU that makes it faster and
the 604 memory bus is 64bit not the 68k one.
The CPU has some impact but what makes it faster is the
overclocked sustem bus. He had to install coolers over his 60ns
SIMMs and a fan blowing the logic chips.
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 28 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 29-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
"the CPU has some impact"
Uh? A BlizzardPPC 060/50 and a 040/25 have the same system bus....now check out their PCI bridge..
My overclocked BlizzardPPC has a 66Mhz systembus too...You wanna compare these result with one you mentioned?
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 29 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by StormLord on 29-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Amifan):
actually you can take different bus speed cause one prog you use testing the bus via 68k and the other via PPC.
I belive that if you test the bus of BPPC with a crystall about 70mhz and a ppc clocked over 200 you will get somewhat about 19-20 megs, BUT must be a PPC BUS test. and NOT a 68k test.
As for CyberPPC this speed can go further caching the theoritical limits of 25megs.
I belive 23 megs is realistic but never had the chance to test it.
What programs are you using to test the bus speed ?
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 30 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 30-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (StormLord):
Yes that might be the problem...maybe he's reffering to the PPC busspeed which has to be much higher ofcourse.....
I'd like to know which program he uses to test that bus.....
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 31 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Amifan):
It was with a strange demo program someone made... It sent overlay data
directly via the ppc and output the transfer rate... I don't personally
have it... I'll take a look.
Change of Warp3D status : Comment 32 of 32ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 30-May-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Found it... If you want it mail me. I hope the author doesn't mind...
I get 15.4mb/sec on my 040/25/603p/240 unoverclocked. The 68k, with
bustest, gets about 12mb/sec
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