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[News] Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/AmithlonANN.lu
Posted on 31-Aug-2001 04:00 GMT by Cybes22 comments
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Cybes writes: Oliver Wagner talks of potential OS 4.x support, and Amithlon support.

(from Amigart.com)
Oliver Wagner said that on his .plan:

The fact that we are supporting MorphOS NOW isn't anything exclusive. Be rest assured that if AmigaOS 4 reaches a state of usability, has a devkit and everything that we'll happily take a look, and possibly port over. The same is true with other interesting developments. There's now a project which involves a "classic" m68k emulation running on x86 PC machines which has reached a state of usability -- it has the means of running "integrated" x86 assembler code, and I've been discussing the possibility of either compiling V completely for x86, or at least offload some of the more time-criticial things notably, the image decoders)to native x86 code."

This raises one potential concern which alot of people who have been against this aspect of the Amithlon will find only further goes to support their beliefs.
The x86 version (currently) looks most likely that it may get support over OS 4.x (and 3.x), only supporting the arguement that the more authors who directly support the Amithlon will lead to the demise of Amiga's/AmigaOS's future path and viability and kill off almost all commercial developers (especially game/app developers) in the process. And furthered even more by developers who also stop directly supporting Amiga PPC Exe's, and split the market further by only supporting MorphOS over AmigaOS.

Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 1 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
Porting V to x86 would be a vise decision. I will buy Amiathlon when it is released. I have the money waiting. And if V is available for x86, I have the money waiting for that too. You have my word!
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 2 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Solar (BAUD) on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
I don´t think x86 plug-ins are such a good idea, but that´s IMHO as always.
BTW, I think the posting is pretty badly formatted. I had to read the original .plan at vapor.com to realize the last paragraph wasn´t by Oliver Wagner, but added by the poster. It´s easy to read over "´s.
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 3 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Solar (BAUD)):
Out of curiosity, why do you think x86 decoding is a bad thing?
I would have thought that if anything would be recoded to use the x86 code facility, things like datatypes and graphics/music decoders would cause the least damage/split. The problems will arise when apps are actually coded exclusively for x86, with no 68k or PPC versions available, or if updates only appear with x86 specific enhancements.
Replacing OS or application sections with x86 versions with the same functionality isn't going to damage anyone, and will make V and other apps more attractive to Amithlon users. Yes, development time and costs may increase, but whether this is a bad thing depends on how many new users buy the product.
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 4 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Bill Hoggett):
Vapor has been releasing morphOS and amigaOS versions of their Voyager browser for some time now, and I don't think anything will be bad if they provide x86 as well. Remember, both beos and linux has been providing both alpha and x86 binaries for a long time, linux also providing ppc. if the sourcecode is hw independant to a usable degree, several supported platforms won't be a bad thing!
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 5 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (m0ns00n):
See, the main point here is that in some years or months, you will be sitting behind your desktop os (x86/PPC etc) and chatting, drawing or whatever. Your work becomes more important to you than the architecture. This is how it is for me. The OS/sw is still important, but not the HW. If developers can provide different binaries for different architectures/platforms, than it is great! but the most important thing is your work; graphics, music, sound etc. It is the content and development of that that is important. Your datafiles, not the binary platform.
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 6 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Desperate Voyager 68k user :P on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
Porting Voyager to WOS (AmigaOS 3.9) shouldn't be too hard...after all those WOS programs should work with upcoming AmigaOS4.x. I've registered Voyager a long time ago and hoped native&official PPC-version for current AmigaOS. :P
So Oliver could you PLEASE be kind and port it to WOS...or at least try It won't harm you at all. :)
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 7 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by James Sellman on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (m0ns00n):
m0ns00n, what are you talking about?! You brought up BeOS and Linux as POSITIVE examples of going to x86?
Obviously you haven't been reading the news lately. BeOS is now *DEAD*. The technologies were purchased by Palm who are killing the desktop line and will use it exclusively as a foundation for their next ver of PalmOS for their PDAs.
Linux is alive because you can't kill an open-source free-as-both-speech-and-beer OS, but have you tried buying software for anything besides x86 for it? You can't! There is almost zero support for PPC/68k/HitachiSH/whatever Linux. The ONLY support out there is for x86. What's more, have you tried buying a game for Linux lately? The largest producer of games for Linux, Loki, just went bankrupt! They couldn't sell enough copies for Linux/x86 because -- guess what -- it was cheaper and faster to just buy a Windows version of the game that would run on the same hardware.
Amithlon as a fast 68k emulator to try to draw nostalgic ex-Amiga users back into the fold is fine and dandy, but the x86-code support is a potential disaster. If all Amiga users are running on Wintel hardware, then I guarantee you that every single one of them will have an installation of Windows on their machine, and they will NOT buy Amiga software when they can buy the same software for Windows at 1/5th the cost at the store down the street.
Going x86 has killed the software market (and sometimes the OS) on every OS that has tried it. This is why Apple is keeping the Mac PPC-only. Woe to us if we go down the same path as BeOS.
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 8 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Emmanuel Lesueur on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Desperate Voyager 68k user :P):
"DV6u:" == "Desperate Voyager 68k user :P" writes:
DV6u:> Porting Voyager to WOS (AmigaOS 3.9) shouldn't be too hard...
You don't know what you are talking about.
1) It's not easy.
2) It would be slower than a pure 68k version, because of context
switches.
DV6u:> after
DV6u:> all those WOS programs should work with upcoming AmigaOS4.x. I've
DV6u:> registered Voyager a long time ago and hoped native&official
DV6u:> PPC-version for current AmigaOS. :P
You haven't paid enough attention to what Olli wrote in his .plan:
he works for what exists.
DV6u:> So Oliver could you PLEASE be kind and port it to WOS...or at least
DV6u:> try It won't harm you at all. :)
It would make him waste his time for no reason at all.
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 9 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (James Sellman):
Firstly, I was simply pointing out that it is no problem with maintaining different binary versions of software, as BeOS and Linux has done it for some time. So to escape the "split", developers should have a download page like this (or provide different options on their CDs):
* Click here for the Amiga x86 version
* Click here for the Amiga PPC version
* Click here for the 68k 020 version
* Click here for the 68k 060 version
etc...
BeOS gone and Linux having a hard time is totally off topic this way. That has not to do with _maintaining_ binaries for different cpus/architectures.
Secoundly, as I _have_ done a lot of reading, BeOS did not fall because of x86. The fact was that x86 was the only way they could go to have new users, and they couldn't make it there because they dropped their own OS in the trash bin (they _left_ PPC for the same reason as Amiga should avoid utilizing it exclusively!!)! If Be would have continued support for BeOS, their developers wouldn't have fled when they made BeIA their main product. Linux _has_ sw support for PPC, even 68k and many other cpu's cuz almost all Linux sw can be downloaded as a source you can compile for yourself!!!
Because almost all computers that people own today are based on x86, Amiga should investigate the area. BeOS couldn't survive on PPC, Linux users mostly have x86 because it is available, QNX's main platform is x86, etcetc. OS companies has realized that PPC is not currently viable, unless a big company does some marketing for it. Right now it is unknown to the main croud of people, who a professional company really wish to increase their revenue from reaching!
_You_ read more. _You_ think more. _You_ go get a wider perspective!
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 10 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (m0ns00n):
>Firstly, I was simply pointing out that it is no problem with maintaining
>different binary versions of software, as BeOS and Linux has done it for some
>time. So to escape the "split", developers should have a download page like
>this (or provide different options on their CDs):
Yes, just like there have been PPC and 68k binaries of quiet a number of programs now. I can't see why this is so hard to understand for alot of people.
Let me just say this to Amiga Inc:
1) the *datatypes* system needs a major upgrade (support for streaming etcetc) and the API must be compatible between AmigaOS4.x and Amithlon (and possibly the 200 other forks of AmigaOS :)
That way apps like Voyager won't need to do their own image decoders and maybe even plugins (think of shockwave/pdf/mpeg4/... datatypes!) - take a look at micosofts codec system, I hate to admit it, but it's great!
-> this will result in less code to port
2) make sure there is a uniform *sound api* that is compatible ....
3) 2D/3D acceleration api ...
People WANT an x86 version, do support it instead of risking a fork.
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 11 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Desperate Voyager 68k user :P):
Something to keep in mind. While WOS will be available in OS4 it will not be the main PPC kernel. I hope a good IDE is available sometime soon so that porting can be done for Vapor's products to OS4.
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 12 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Alan Watson on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Brecht):
I wonder if all these people that want x86 support now,were part of
the outraged Amiga users when Gateway announced that they were
planning on going x86 years ago(when they owned the Amiga)???
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 13 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Alan Watson on 30-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Brecht):
I wonder if all these people that want x86 support now,were also some
of the outraged Amiga users when Gateway announced that they were
planning on going x86 years ago(when they owned the Amiga)???
`It`s a funny old world,`init?...`
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 14 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 31-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Alan Watson):
Bull!
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 15 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 31-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Alan Watson):
'scuse me, but I happen to have five of the damn things - don't ask -
including a fully laden A4000/060/PPC/CyberVisionPPC system.
...and yet I use Amithlon rather than the real Amigas, though they all
work perfectly. Can you think of a good reason why that may be?
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 16 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 31-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Bill Hoggett):
>...and yet I use Amithlon rather than the real Amigas, though they all
>work perfectly. Can you think of a good reason why that may be?
ok, will you please stop making me jealous :)
someone send me a beta
Brecht
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 17 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Paul Laycock on 31-Aug-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (m0ns00n):
Gah! For Gods sake! Amithlon is an EMULATOR which runs under a custom
Linux bootstrap. All it does is boot the required gfx card drivers,
sound card and I/O etc. so that AmigaOS 3.9 can run on x86 hardware.
You cannot feasilbly code for the x86!! Only 68k code will un through
the emulator.
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 18 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 01-Sep-2001 22:00 GMT
The other thing that seems to be overlooked is that Amithlon
is just an emulator, it's not a future AmigaOS. As far as I
can tell there has been NO mention of OS 4-5 and AmigaDE
ever being available for this architecture. It sounds like a
great emulator for current amiga programs and OS3.9 but
PPC and the AmigaOne are the way forward. I like the way Mac
works right now, they have great hardware that runs their OS
and is totally unrelated with the PC market. This avoids the
confusion and unrest amongst users that no longer have to be
unsure of the position of the os/hardware/computer in relation
to Win/Linux etc. It is simply a great computer that you can
buy in its entirety instead of piecing hardware and software
together that is ALL made to run with Windows and not Amiga/Mac etc.
We need our own computer, Apple has realized this strategy and
launched a very succesful business from it, Amiga can do the same...
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 19 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 01-Sep-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Paul Laycock):
All this time and you still haven't bothered to get yourself informed.
Here's the Amithlon FAQ:
http://byron.csse.monash.edu.au/amithlon.html
Here are the benchmarks:
http://byron.csse.monash.edu.au/benchmarks.html
Now go and read them and come back when you are up-to-date.
Sheesh!
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 20 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 01-Sep-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
> Something to keep in mind. While WOS will be available in OS4 it will not be the main PPC kernel.
Are you sure...
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 21 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 01-Sep-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Kelly Samel):
Apple sells their products in stores. They won't rely on mailorder as Amiga will. That is their advantage. But I already said that.
Oliver Wagner speaks on OS 4.x/Amithlon : Comment 22 of 22ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 18-Sep-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Nicolas Sallin):
For the people how think AmigaOS 4.x is based on the WorpUp or even compatible with it, Place look hear:
http://www.amiga.com/corporate/041201-mcewen.shtml
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