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[Forum] "party on:-)" (R.S.)ANN.lu
Posted on 02-Oct-2001 19:56 GMT by Martin Heine233 comments
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(Before someone again complains that I'm sharing my opinion "everywhere": I just decided to paste here what I wrote in comp.sys.amiga.misc because of Christian's call for articles.)
The article contains quick and dirty translations of comments made yesterday and today by Mr. Haage and Ralph Schmidt at amiga-news.de, since I thought non-german-speakers might be interested in this, too. Newsgroup-article #1:


To try to compensate at least a little bit the advantages of those Amigans who speak German (and therefore often get easier to rumours, facts, etc., because of the importance of german companies and individuals for the Amiga-market), I thought it might be useful to translate a few statements made at amiga-news.de today.

While Eyetech and H&P accuse each other for the A1/AOS4-delays (one says the hardware is missing, one says the OS4 is missing), Mr. Haage made (among others) the following comments (no warranty for the translation!):


[Mr. Haage (H) comments some rumours (R)]

H: "The interest in OS4.0 we have NEVER lost. But we've never been and are not convinced of the profitability of the project if the concepts won't be changed."

R: "They (H&P) are just the executing organ, all decisions are made by Amiga Inc."

H: "Correct. [...]"

R: "Amiga Inc. displays regarding Communication with their partners "certain" deficits."

H: "Deficits is nicely said. But it's correct!"

R: "Failing to come / insufficient payments from Amiga Inc."

H: "Before payments could be made, contracts have to be made. That far, however, we aren't yet. Regarding which I clearly want to emphasize that WE do not delay."

[...]

H: "To be able to be partners to an agreement, one needs contracts - and that is not Amiga Inc.'s strong point."


[Another comment from Mr. Haage]

R: "Is the date told by Alan Redhouse [Eyetech] for the completion of OS4.0 ("november, but probably not the 1st") possible in your opinion?"

H: "Only if it would be right now possible to work towards that date. But the conditions for this don't exist. Maybe a wonder happens, but I don't expect it."


No wonder that those like me, who've been suspicious regarding AI in favour of MorphOS/Pegasos for some time already, unfortunately feel confirmed more and more. Also no wonder that Ralph Schmidt is enjoying this soap opera from AI, H&P and Eyetech, his first comment has been the one quoted as the subject: "party on:-)".


So, after translating Mr. Haage's point of view, I'll also think I should quote from one of Ralph's comments, too. He (RS) answers to a comment by Mr. Haage (JH):

JH: "In an exclusive x86 AmigaOS version we aren't interested."

RS: "No? :-) Do you think we don't get what you proposed internally already in August? :-)"

[...]

RS: "As you've been also told already by a person from Amiga Inc. some monthes ago... you have no future as Amiga OS vendor."


My personal guess is that the main problem seems to be Amiga Inc., i.e. especially their lack of money. So after them already given up on their plans regarding DE being their future OS many monthes ago, it seems their plan to survive as a content vendor for PDAs seems to be not that successful, too (Alan Redhouse, too, does confirm in his statement that AI still has the already known financial problems). If companies like H&P do speak that way about AI already in the public as Mr. Haage did today at amiga-news.de (I just translated a little bit of it), I exprect the worst regarding AI's future.

Therefore it really seems the Amiga-market's future might be just those two ones Ralph outlined: an emulation-based x86 one by H&P and the PPC one covered by MorphOS.



-----8<--------

Newsgroup-article #2:

Some "second helping" - the "party" goes on:

(Again no warranty for the 'quick and dirty' translation.)


Michael Garlich (Titan Computer) in reply to Mr. Haage:

"You should restrain yourself on your statements against Mr. Schmidt! Only you are to blame for the current situation - if you had actually shown your much propagated readiness for cooperation last year in september, it would not have been come that far. Despite all adverse things Mr. Schmidt contrary to you had been willing to cooperate under leadership of Amiga Inc. !!!"


And another reply by Ralph to Mr. Haage:

"[...] You operate on other levels which the normal user doesn't notice. (dealers, influence on Amiga Inc., threats with licences, internal mailing lists, influence on a certain person and a certain company)"



-----8<--------

Newsgroup-article #3:

I think balance requires me to continue the translation at least one more time, i.e. especially regarding the repeated offer below by Mr. Haage to try to come to a cooperation. Of course everyone draws his own conclusions, H&P-fans may say "didn't I tell you, just Ralph is the bad guy" (although there's on the other hand the, today repeated, version by for example Mr. Garlich who said that Mr. Haage would have prevented exactly this last year), while the other side may say he's just lying or trying another trick. My personal conclusion is that Mr. Haage may just get cold feet because of the apparently very bad financial situation at AI and its consequences for another Amiga-PPC-future besides MorphOS.

Well, here again some quick and dirty translations from the very same thread of comments at amiga-news.de as before; again, no warranty.


1. Mr. Haage:

He suggests to accept an invitation made partly humorously by amiga-news.de's Petra Struck to Mr. Haage and Ralph to meet at her home for a dinner and try to come to an agreement.

(But Ralph did already say in a comment before he'd never again cooperate with Mr. Haage, because of the well-known history and because H&P would just have nothing to offer that would be of interest for the bplan/Morphos-crew. (Although I think Ralph underestimates the value of "the name", but on the other hand I don't know how much, if any, influence H&P has regarding this.))


2. Ralph:

(It has been said before that by saying H&P (and Hyperion) would have nothing to offer the MorphOS-team could be interested in, they would cut out "StormC4, Arteffect, Genesis, Olsen's TCP/IP Stack, OS 3.9 licences" and Hyperion's products.)

" 1) We have with the PPC-MorphOS-GCC our own development system, [...].
2) I wouldn't know what's that unique with ArtEffect. [...]
3) Genesis is a GUI surface and the TCP/IP stack belongs to Tomi Ollila, which we do also have as a PPC version.
4) Olsen's TCP/IP stack is controlled by Olsen and nobody else. And we do have a *very* good relationship with Olaf.
5) Amiga users do already own 3.1, 3.5 or 3.9 and it's left up to them of they continue to use it until a completely new WB exists.
6) MorphOS as AmigaOS 4.x was massively opposed by Hyperion since november 2000 and in summer it was said that they'd never would be porting Warp3d to MorphOS, when Amiga Inc. suggested them this. This decision is left up to them for what they want to develop something... The consequence is just that they don't play any role in our plans. Therefore we plan an own 3D solution. Warp3d is only that long important as new games support it.
[...]
9) As I said already... H&P are free to offer their applications for MorphOS also. *We* won't hinder anyone from developing applications for MorphOS. SDKs from us always will be free.
10) With Papyrus we'll have a real office-package with word-processor."


3. Mr. Haage:

Replying to the comment by Mr. Garlich (see earlier in this thread), Mr. Haage says he wouldn't know about what Mr. Garlich would be speaking.


4. Ralph:

(He was asked if Nova Design or Paul Nolan would have announced support for MorphOS already.)

"We have also spoken with Kermit Woodal several times. Since he's also closely related with Merlancia, there are certainly possibilities. :-) Paul Nolan does have a key and a development system since last year... [...]"
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 101 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 05-Oct-2001 10:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 99 (David Gerber):
Is there anyone (who isn't a member of MorphOS team) that MorphOS team respect / trust ?

If there was a negotiator, who would MOS team choose ?
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 102 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 05-Oct-2001 10:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 99 (David Gerber):
I didn't say she was unbiased, I asked for opinions (and I got them, thanks). How about Solar? :-)
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 103 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 05-Oct-2001 11:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 89 (Ralph Schmidt):
"@Samface(alias Sammy)
That`s a classic. To prove your point i suggest everybody to
scan for "MorphOS" on www.amiga.org's forums...read the
"Sammy" comments.
Also read the MUI *news* thread there from a few weeks
ago with his participation.
To sum it up..."Amiga Inc. should sue us"(several times")
"liar(e)"(fascinating word game) and other interesting
comments.
That speaks for itself..."

Thanks for proving my point...
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 104 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 05-Oct-2001 11:13 GMT
Great party so far. Can we skip to the fighting now?
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 105 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 05-Oct-2001 11:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 101 (Sinan Gurkan):
@sinan>I think this problem can be only solved in Germany...Our problem was already solved on monday...that`s whati meant with "discuss the content">Is there anyone (who isn't a member of MorphOS team)>that MorphOS team respect / trust ?>If there was a negotiator, who would MOS team choose ?negotiate about what with whom ?I really don`t understand you...P.S. And please Sinan..try to read H&P's and Eyetech's monday statements on www.amiga-news.de and then try to read(maybe through a german speaking friend) of what Mr. Haage and others said in the >230 thread comment section where he contradicts what Eyetech and AInc. announced for months.Then..you maybe also understand why i'm puzzled peopleotherwise just *ignore* this.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 106 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Oct-2001 11:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 105 (Ralph Schmidt):
> Then..you maybe also understand why i'm puzzled people
> otherwise just *ignore* this.

Perhaps because (a) it is in German and (b) most of the information seems to be inside a very active comments section. Most people want their news filtered. I know I've been spending too much time reading this thread, let alone 237+ comments on amiga-news.de, when I should have been writing code here at work.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 107 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Oct-2001 11:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Anonymous):
>Perhaps because (a) it is in German and (b) most of the information seems to >be inside a very active comments section. Most people want their news >filtered. I know I've been spending too much time reading this thread, let >alone 237+ comments on amiga-news.de, when I should have been writing code >here at work.

You are right, it's not that ANN and amiga.org (English sites) readers are ignoring this news, it's because we don't know what the news is!!!!

Most of us British and Americans can't speak German, so we have no idea what has been going on! Perhaps someone could translate the main points in a more clear fashion?
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 108 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 05-Oct-2001 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Anonymous):
@anonH&P and Eyetech's statements(normal news) reveal already alot. What was said by Mr. Haage in the comment section isjust the icing on the cake.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 109 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 05-Oct-2001 11:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 105 (Ralph Schmidt):
> negotiate about what with whom ?

Sam Jordan! Modifying MorphOS to work seemlessly along side the OS4+ native kernel. That's a joke son, you're supposed to laugh. Would be nice though, but I don't see it ever happening until Morph or native OS4 kernel is scrapped.

> P.S. And please Sinan..try to read H&P's and Eyetech's monday statements on
> www.amiga-news.de and then try to read(maybe through a german speaking
> friend) of what Mr. Haage and others said in the >230 thread comment section
> where he contradicts what Eyetech and AInc. announced for months. Then..you
> maybe also understand why i'm puzzled people otherwise just *ignore* this.

That's like trying to ask all of the English speaking Americans to switch their main language to spanish. The translation is nothing better than butchering the language preparing for the worlds largest barbque. Amazing as it may sound, many people aren't willing to read past two lines of badly mutalated "Engrish". Now, if someone were willing to translate all of the 230+ posts (relevant ones of course) in a much more defined order than this topic posting, I'm sure more people would see how much weight it holds. Then you have one additional problem with that, unless the person who wrote the words also does the translation, there's going to be some big to do about nothing all over again. I'm not surprised how much of an impact it had on a german speaking site where there was little or no impact on an english speaking site. Anyway, I know just enough french to be slapped by a lady and enough german to be taken to a back alley and beaten nearly to death by an entire night club.

True story...
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 110 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 05-Oct-2001 12:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 109 (the man in the shadows):
A lot of the content is in Heine's compressed statement above.Has nobody read the Q&A section above and realized its meaning ?These are direct translations of what happened up to a certainpoint in the comments. Afterwards Heine wrote his "opinion" butthe paragraph before were translations.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 111 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 05-Oct-2001 13:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 108 (Ralph Schmidt):
>H&P and Eyetech's statements(normal news) reveal already a
>lot. What was said by Mr. Haage in the comment section is
>just the icing on the cake.

And your posts reveal next to nothing, except that you're an annoying little prick who likes to make personal attacks on just about everyone. Before reading this thread I knew little about you or MorphOS, however after reading your childish posts I have no respect for you or your company. Your attitude is anything but professional. If you were working for my company and were making statements like that I would fire you because you're doing more harm then good. Amiga Inc. might be low on cash but they at least are not bickering like little brats who didn't get what they want. As for you and MorphOS, you might want to consider hiring a public relations representative because you are doing a piss-poor job of it yourself! Infact, I would like to see you leave the Amiga web sites and news groups because you are after all Amiga's direct competition. It would not be much different then having Bill Gates joining this discussion and insulting our developers. AmigaOS & MorphOS are obviously hostile so please stick to your own web sites. This is AMIGA News Network, not MorphOS News Network.

- Mike
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 112 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 05-Oct-2001 13:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 110 (Ralph Schmidt):
> R: "Is the date told by Alan Redhouse [Eyetech] for the completion of OS4.0
> ("november, but probably not the 1st") possible in your opinion?"
>
> H: "Only if it would be right now possible to work towards that date. But the
> conditions for this don't exist. Maybe a wonder happens, but I don't expect
> it."

I'm quoting exactly what I think you're all hypted up about, but to me this means absolutely nothing. My question though, with all that crap quoting up at the top, it's no wonder noone is really able to figure out what this is all about. To be honest, even this translated statement by Haage means diddly squat. If I'm missing it, then make with the Amiga-C and quote for christ sake. It doesn't take half a brain to quote. If you have the time... translate with comment numbers linking back to amiga-news.de.

The point is, you can't just say you can fly... you have to flap your arms hard enough to meander around the comments before someone might understand what your going on about. Remember, not all of us are mind readers here... just half of us.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 113 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 05-Oct-2001 13:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Mike Veroukis):
If you think that's the wrong place here to speak about MorphOS then
ask Chistian if he deletes this thread.

I wanted to post e.p.i.c. interactive's announcement to port the
Earth 2150 series (containing "Escape From The Blue Planet",
"The Moon Project" and "Lost Souls") to MorphOS but maybe this is the
wrong place here as you said.

But then don't be angry if you don't hear anything about the
announcements(if you just read ann.lu you already missed MotionVideo)
or have to wait until they were translated on http://www.amiga-news.de/en/
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 114 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 05-Oct-2001 13:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (David Scheibler):
> But then don't be angry if you don't hear anything about the
> announcements(if you just read ann.lu you already missed MotionVideo)
> or have to wait until they were translated on http://www.amiga-news.de/en/

Yeah, I know what you mean. Interesting comments on org though.
http://www.amiga.org/article.php?sid=1461
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 115 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 05-Oct-2001 13:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 112 (the man in the shadows):
Maybe you should also read:

>H: "The interest in OS4.0 we have NEVER lost.
>But we've never been and are not convinced of the
>profitability of the project if the concepts won't be changed.";

>R: "Amiga Inc. displays regarding Communication with their partners
>"certain" deficits."

>H: "Deficits is nicely said. But it's correct!"

together with:

>H: "Before payments could be made, contracts have to be made. That
>far, however, we aren't yet. Regarding which I clearly want to
>emphasize that WE do not delay."

and:

>H: "To be able to be partners to an agreement, one needs contracts -
>and that is not Amiga Inc.'s strong point.";

Regarding the phrase you quoted and what the conditions are you should read
the english Amiga-news.de article with Haage's answer that started the whole thing:
(http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2001-10-00001-EN.html)

>Question to HP:
>AmigaOS 4.0 should be exhibited with the AmigaOne in November this year.
>Does the follwing sentence mean that H&P is not currently working on
>AmigaOS 4.0 for AmigaOne?

>Juergen Haage:
>As you may know the discussion started early this year. The first prototypes were
>planned for March. We planned the development of our part of AmigaOS4 according
>to this date. The first presentation was expected for the St. Louis Show in April...
>But up until know we still have no hardware to develop for.

>Question to H&P:
>This means that it is only some political decision made by Amiga Inc.
>if OS4 will be available for Classic-Amigas?

>Juergen Haage:
>There are some important assumptions to be able to make a political decision.
>I do not think that these assumptions are available at the moment.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 116 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 05-Oct-2001 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Mike Veroukis):
Well said mate. If CK wants to know why the number of posts on ANN are falling and why he's not getting the "hits" he used to it's simply because ANN has been undermined by the MorphOS crew to the point where real Amiga users are not prepared to wade through he anti-Amiga/Eyetech/H&P/Hyperion B*** S*** any longer.

I prefer the ANN layout 100 times more than the Amiga.org one, but over the last month I've found myself heading to Amiga.org more than ANN for news (as opposed to slander and rumours).

Anyone that bothers to read the various "hotmail" lists on the A1, Mediator, etc will see how determined the MorphOS crew are in undermining the official effort to resurrect the Amiga. They will post their lies and half-truths anywhere in order to drive Amiga users away from the official path and over to theirs. Sorry guys - all you are doing is driving people to the PC.

Since the MorphOS infection has obviously taken a deep rooted hold here and treatment (censorship) is out of the question then it is time to amputate this disease. Goodbye ANN, it was nice knowing you, but I'm off to other sites where "news=facts" and Schmidt is spelt "S***".

This is Darrin, last Amiga user on ANN, signing off...
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 117 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 05-Oct-2001 14:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Mike Veroukis):
> mike wrote
> I would like to see you leave the Amiga web sites and news groups because you >are after all Amiga's direct competition. It would not be much different then >having Bill Gates joining this discussion and insulting our developers. >AmigaOS & MorphOS are obviously hostile so please stick to your own web sites. > This is AMIGA News Network, not MorphOS News Network

sigh another amiga fanatic who can't see reality.. as i havn't used an amiga for a while so i think i am a bit more objective..
As far as i can see MorphOS is the only PPC operating system that will run on amigas with PPC cards and standalone 'amiga like' PPC machines.. IT has a lot to do with amiga and ANN, as in amiga users are using morphos and amiga developers are developing for it in abscense of anything from amiga inc.

This is coming out of the amiga community, there are apps coming for morph like motionstudio that i am excited about and would consider using as an addition/replacement to a Apple Mac setup. O.k so it dosn't have official amiga backing but it seems there is not going to be an alternative for a while unless amiga inc is secretly developing OS4 without Haage

Any thoughts on this guys? That might take the smile off ralphs face:)

But anyway my point is why are people getting so upset about morph, they are contributing to the amiga community. When Gateway-Amiga announced their QNX/thenLinux solution did everyone condemm Phase5/H&P for competing and trying to split the market?

While ralph does need diplomacy lessons Amiga inc should relize the pontential of morph. (and ralph should relize the importance of 'the name' and the talented people at Hyperion/Warp3D)

just my two cents..
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 118 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Joe user on 05-Oct-2001 14:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Mike Veroukis):
> This is AMIGA News Network, not MorphOS News Network.

Yeah! So here we can talk about all the crap announced by Amiga Inc and never
happened. Let's see... the digital revolution! AmiVerse, the future in IT.
The Zaurus, an AmigaDE based systen, the great e-commerce site where we can
buy the new AMIGA games! Yeah! The AmigaDE Player! AmigaSDK. Oh, yeah... you
said it. This is AMIGA Network news and the news is that we are being fooled,
again.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 119 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 05-Oct-2001 14:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 115 (David Scheibler):
Bravo!!! Let's all give a great big giant hand for Mr. Schiebler for stating the absolute obvious (with a special note to Ralph schmidt and Martin Heine, take notes on how he quotes... you may need them later on). I love it. It means nothing. Absolutely nothing. Look at this...

> H: "To be able to be partners to an agreement, one needs contracts -
> and that is not Amiga Inc.'s strong point.";

Are you saying, or is Haage saying, they don't have a contract? No one is. Unless that part was lost in the translation.

> H: "The interest in OS4.0 we have NEVER lost.
> But we've never been and are not convinced of the
> profitability of the project if the concepts won't be changed.";

This is a HUGE duh factor here. H&P are potentially worried that not enough A1 systems will be sold, so, they are treading on the line out in the open in hopes of relieving their own tensions. Can you guys not see that? Geez. This is a large project OS4. It's not something to just let go of in hopes that it succeeds. No. This is a project where they have obviously put down their lively hood on the very nip and tuck of the preverbial wire.

> As you may know the discussion started early this year. The first prototypes
> were planned for March. We planned the development of our part of AmigaOS4
> according to this date. The first presentation was expected for the St. Louis
> Show in April... But up until know we still have no hardware to develop for.

So, this means what exactly? From what the beta testers say, the majority of the software they have been given is running in a very stable if not final state. Hang on a second. The beta testers are running OS4 software? How can this be? Oh my god... they can't be using A1 boards could they... nah, that would be the easy way out of it. If the testing is near completion on the software and the A1 boards run to specs, there shouldn't be much if anything to worry about. Now then, we are talking about the same bird-on-a-wire here though. Martin has done some extremely awesome work on the A1 board and there have been confirmations from BillM that the board does indeed boot (need the audio clip?) but with the BrainStormer not being finalized I'm sure this is Martin's make or break bread and butter. Same as above, one great big huge DUH factor involved.

> There are some important assumptions to be able to make a political decision.
> I do not think that these assumptions are available at the moment.

Hmm... isn't this the famous "I'm not at liberty to comment on this right now" but mangled through translation? Could this whole thing be nothing but a load of tripe on someone's high horse dreams?

Geez guys, wake up... those aren't roses you smell. Could it possibly be there is some hidden meaning behind all of this. I honestly don't think so. I just find it outright hilarious that someone would actually read more into it than this.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 120 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 05-Oct-2001 14:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 117 (adam ceremuga):
>sigh another amiga fanatic who can't see reality..

Believe me, seeing reality is a specialty of mine. The reality is that MorphOS and it's backers are very hostile towards Amiga Inc and it's backers. If the MorphOS team just quietly worked away and developed their system I would not be upset with them. However, this kind of bickering hurts both Amiga and MorphOS.

One of the problems with the Amiga community and it's users is that many fail to realize there's a world outsize the Amiga. The only real chance to get Amiga back in the game is to use the Amiga name. Name, image and marketing is more important in penetraiting market share then technical merits. The MorhpOS team is doing everything in their power to smear Amiga Inc. I would not be surprised if they do not get sued for liable, as I've seem many comments that could be considered as such (hense my recommendation to hire a real public relations rep).

I do not believe MorphOS has a change in the grand scheme of things. It might provide an OS for those with PPC cards for their current Amigas, but you know what? WHO CARES!!! The masses will never flock to an Amiga/PPC hardware set-up (which is anything but cheap) just to run MorphOS. This is NOT a path to the future. Will Pegasos or bPlan be the saviour? Well, probably not as they too lack the name and the cost won't be much better.

From a marketing point of view, Amiga Inc has a great advantage. It is in all our best long-term interests to support Amiga. MorphOS might provide something for your current hardware, but don't let that be the deciding factor. Only Amiga Inc can offer a true future. If Amiga fails, then forget MorphOS, forget bPlan, forget EyeTech, H&P, Merlancia and all things Amiga becuase then it will be truly over. That my friend is the reality.

- Mike
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 121 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by JoBBo on 05-Oct-2001 14:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (the man in the shadows):
"Are you saying, or is Haage saying, they don't have a contract? No one is."

That's exactly what Haage&Partner said on www.amiga-news.de. According to Mr. Haage, they have not yet signed a contract with Amiga Inc. although OS4.0 was expected to be released in *November*.

On the other hand, Amiga Inc. obviously have good reasons for their "strange" behaviour.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 122 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 05-Oct-2001 14:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (the man in the shadows):
1. Yes, Haage said that they have no contracts with Amiga Inc.
2. How are beta testers testing some OS4 software?

The answer was given by H&P's AmigaOS XL FAQ:
(http://amigaxl.haage-partner.de/faqs-main-e.html)

>30. What about AmigaOS 4.0

>The main goal of AmigaOS 4.0 is porting the existing AmigaOS 3.9 to PPC.
>Only a few new components are planned for it until now. These also exist
>in a 68k version, and could be used with Amithlon/AmigaXL without any
>problems. This, however, is a decision Amiga Inc. has to make.

So they are just testing the 68k parts of OS4 (for example Olsen even doesn't
have a PPC card and he develops FFS2 and Roadstar TCP for OS4).

3. Juergen Haage said how he would like to change the concept (this hasn't been
translated yet, I just summarize): He said that it is very unlikely that there are
many users who will buy an AmigaOne mainboard if it costs around 1000DM (~500EUR).
But there would be more customers that want to buy OS4 for around 100DM (~50EUR),
like OS3.5/3.9. His idea is not to release OS4 for PPC only machines but also for 68k
machines.

4. The last sentence of Haage's answer reads more like he really doesn't think that
Amiga Inc. can manage a project like OS4. If you read the German text it's definitively
more than: "I can't comment this ATM".

BTW: Where did Bill McEwen confirm that the AmigaOne board is running? The last official
statement was that they try to integrate the CPU module.

If you don't believe just wait until November, but don't be surprised if all
your hopes will get destroy.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 123 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Bif on 05-Oct-2001 15:19 GMT
Bonjour,

Gary put a comment on the Amigaone mailing list (AmigaOS4@yahoogroups.com)
I will not copy and paste it here because if he wanted to do it it will be already done.

It will be a lot simpler and faster if (AOS3.9+Morphos+AROS) = Amiga OS 4.0 and more...
Morphos Team, Ralph, Bill, Aaron ?
Is it a possible future ?

Regards,

Bif
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 124 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 05-Oct-2001 16:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 120 (Mike Veroukis):
Mike..where do i *smear* Amiga Inc here. I only point
the finger on something Amiga Inc. *partners* said
*publicly* over *amiga inc* and what was said is
quite negative not because it's fun to be negative
but because the reality is that bleak.
So please try to keep the line of events.

Sure..the Amiga name is powerful..we see it in this
thread again even against rational thinking.
But the future for followup products will
look like

o x86 emulations(AmigaXL,Amithlon)
o AROS
o PPC MorphOS

and that's it.

Why *I* try to rub what happened under certain people noses
is not that i have fun destroying people's believes on ann
but because the coming PPC platform with MorphOS needs as
many users and developers as possible to get a stable PPC
base for the users AND 3rd party sw developers.
Therefore it's needed that also the *name believers*
(Yes..also the Amiga.org Amiga evangelist Kent)
realize what the consequence is of what H&P and Eyetech said.
What was said there was basicly expected by dealers and good
informed developers in germany since early the summer.
This isn't directly about money...for money reasons nobody
would probably really care anymore for amiga.
This is about the last and *only* chance we all get for a PPC
native system for which a lot people have waited for just only
perhaps from a different brand but that's how it is.
Amiga was always about technical advancements and not about
religious issues. I bought my A1000 in june 1986 because
of the excitement of new HW and a new OS and not because
it was from CBM and named Amiga.
With this excitement I helped to develop about 100000 3rd party
amiga products which a lot of you use(d) in your amiga to bring
it forward.

We have no problem to try to licence the Amiga name for the
product to make "almost" all happy but this requires will
on amiga inc.'s side.
Furthermore if the licence price forbids serious future
development(And OS development *NEEDS* funds to significant
improve the OS again) this can't be a sensible option.

That is the motivation why i try to get a bit more voicy
(some may say agressive) in the public after we have negotiated
with Amiga Inc. for the whole summer which unfortunately
leaded nowhere. Amiga Inc. has seen the Pegasos running
MorphOS alpha through Olaf Barthel in early september and
was fully informed by Olaf about the situation.
The few "OS4" work which is tested for some months are
Olaf Barthel's own property and owned by him.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 125 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Heine on 05-Oct-2001 16:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 116 (Darrin):
@ Sinan (101)

In a comment on amiga-news.de, Ralph suggested Olaf Barthel as such a
neutral person who could be the interface in a common development by
all parties.


@ Lennart (95)

No problem. Although I think biased is an a bit too strong word. But
you're right, I've favored MorphOS for some time already, but just
because it was for some time already more and more obvious, that AI's
announcements won't come true. Otherwise I would have been against
MorphOS, against a split - as I've always been before, for example
already back then with pOS. But as Ralph already said: since monday
it's pretty obvious that they (MOS) don't have a problem anymore, i.e.
that there won't be a split (within Amiga-PPC-market), just because
MorphOS obviously is the only solution. The only remaining split is
the one between PPC (MOS) and x86 (H&P, emulation-based). But AI
themselves are obviously "seemingly dead". Unfortunately, I'm hinestly
sorry about this.

But as I said, I have no problem with your words - and you know, I
didn't hide that I'm a MorphOS-fan (by the MOS-"confession" and by
naming Ralph by his first name while at the same time saying "Mr.
Haage"). Furthermore I've to admit that I esteem Ralph - no, not that
I'd always share his opinion, really not, but I do very much like his
direct way that he's quite famous for. You don't have to like him, but
you always know that he says what he thinks. At least I wished that
many more people would do so...


@ Darrin (116)

Nobody does hinder you to listen only to discussions of people who
share the opinion you do already have, but I do absolutely not
understand those people who demand censorship at ann.lu regarding
MorphOS. Hey, we aren't talking about BeOS, QNX or any other totally
alien OS. We are talking about a compatible AmigaOS follow-up -
respectively even more, the, as it seems, only real successor, the
only PPC-future for us. And furthermore it's done and supported by
some famous of the remaining Amiga-developers. So I think MorphOS-news
do have any right to appear on Amiga-news-sites and -groups.
Especially since the MOS-team seems to be the only one to be able to
release real news-items from time to time instead of just another
announcement of delay...
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 126 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by John Atkins on 05-Oct-2001 16:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (gz):
In response to:

>H&P is a small company and doesent have big programming staff. The
>same goes with AI. Therefore it seems more like utopia for them to be
>able to produce compelling new OS which would be so great it would be
>actually worth of changing platforms or to even buy new and
>expensive hardware/software from an user point of view.

I tend to think that the original Amiga had very few KEY engineers that made it what it became. The originally developed Amiga OS didn't have a large team at all, and from what I know Carl basically wanted to take the large part of that job. So I think a small development team can do as good as any large team if focused.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 127 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Blom on 05-Oct-2001 16:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 116 (Darrin):
What, are you kidding me? This is why I keep returning to ANN several times a day (work is *so* boring sometimes, no?) ... I love the all-against-Ralph threads -- they are incredibly amusing indeed.

And why everybody seem so afraid of and hostile towards MorphOS, I can't understand. What do you care, if you're not going to use it anyway? "Splitting the market"? Please.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 128 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 05-Oct-2001 16:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Ralph Schmidt):
>This is about the last and *only* chance we all get for a PPC
>native system for which a lot people have waited for just only
>perhaps from a different brand but that's how it is.

And this I mentioned in my previous post. Simply creating a PPC Amiga-like OS isn't good enough! You might be popular with those who already have PPC cards, but that's a small market and technically out-dated to say the least. This will not save the Amiga market. And without the Amiga market it is all lost. It is the Amiga name that binds us all together. It is the Amiga name that outsiders understand. The Amiga name is more important then PPC or CHRP or zico or whatever. MorphOS means nothing to the outsiders. But say the word Amiga and everything changes. And although you'd love to license the Amiga name, there can really only be one Amiga, and that has already been taken.

You're right, there is some hostility on both sides and I do not know the history behind it. But outsiders will understand it even less and be turned off even more. You should refrain from these public outbursts, even if you are right. Infact, so should H&P and Hyperion. All this negative attitude we see here just ruins it for everyone. Don't kick Amiga Inc when they are down, but instead support them because you do need them, whether you like them or not.

Is there a peaceful solution??? I sure hope so. That's what the Amiga community NEEDS. The Amiga market is totally in panic mode, it's a state of emergency. So what's with all the in-fighting??? Time to write off history, cease fire and get everyone working together. We need to support each other. We all have something to offer and we do need each other. We either all swim together or all drown together. It's that simple.

- Mike
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 129 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 05-Oct-2001 16:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 126 (John Atkins):
@john

True..also a small team can reach a lot if they are all
motivated, skilled and have the *right* plan...
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 130 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 05-Oct-2001 16:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Martin Blom):
>And why everybody seem so afraid of and hostile towards MorphOS, I can't >understand. What do you care, if you're not going to use it anyway? "Splitting >the market"? Please.

Yeah... the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think that MorphOS might not be as significant as many might think. So far, even from many of the MorphOS supporters, MorphOS is seen as a last-ditch backup plan incase AmigaOS 4.0 never comes through. I believe that if Amiga Inc do finish AOS4.0 MorphOS will be nothing but a memory. If Amiga fails, well, Amiga AND MorphOS will vanish into obscurity... The only real market share for MorphOS seems to be those who already have PPC cards, a minority in the Amiga community.

On the flip side, I expect Amithlon/XL to sell really well. I'm sure this will make more then just a few want to puke. It's gonna be an interesting Christams!

- Mike
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 131 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Oct-2001 17:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 120 (Mike Veroukis):
>The only real chance to get Amiga back in the game is to use the Amiga name. >Name, image and marketing is more important in penetraiting market share then >technical merits.

>From a marketing point of view, Amiga Inc has a great advantage. It is in all >our best long-term interests to support Amiga. MorphOS might provide something >for your current hardware, but don't let that be the deciding factor. Only >Amiga Inc can offer a true future.

At last, one of the name-followers has finally admitted it and come out of the shadows!

The name Amiga is far more important than the product:

Would you buy a Windows machine if M$ bought the Amiga trademarks? Would you buy MorphOS if they bought the trademarks? Would you buy a JCB tractor if they bought the trademarks? Would you buy a barrel of radioactive waste if British Nuclear Fuels bought the trademark?
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 132 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Blom on 05-Oct-2001 17:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 130 (Mike Veroukis):
I don't quite get what you mean by MorphOS' market share. What do you expect to run AmigaOS 4 on? The MorphOS potential lies in new hardware. The fact that it ran using phase 5's PPC card was just a bonus and a way of giving developers a head start.

The problem with the emulators is just that -- they are just emulators. They let me use AmigaOS 3.x on inexpensive PC hardware and laptops (which I know many are longing for), but that AmigaOS is like ten years old by now. There is no dedicated and talented team working working on moving that emulated OS forward.
The problem with MorphOS is that, even though I have no doubt that Pegasos will be an excellent product and a quite welcome replacement for my aging and basically dead Amiga 4000, it (MorphOS) will be used to make bplans mainboard profitable. Thus, I don't expect it to run on a laptop anytime soon, if ever.

If only all those old and new products (AmigaOS 3.x, AmigaOS 4, AROS, MorphOS, Amithlon, UAE, AmigaXL, [insert your favourite project here]) would be source code compatible ...

Being an Amiga user has never been as intersting as now. :)
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 133 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 05-Oct-2001 18:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 131 (Anonymous):
>The name Amiga is far more important than the product:

When it comes to marketing it is. Brand name recognition is important. Look at all MicroSoft products. People buy them just because the word MicroSoft is on the box, nothing else. For them MicroSoft is the mainstream and is a safe option. They buy MicroSoft knowing that there might be something better, but they don't know what that might be. Plus, they know that if they have a problem everyone else who uses the same system may be able to help them. Same goes with companies like Sony. They make good stuff, but you can easily buy better amps or CD players for cheaper. But people trust the name and stick to it because it's safe. Same goes for all American cars vs forgein cars. People know Amiga, they understand it. But MorphOS? Both Amiga & MorphsOS have an uphill battle, but MorphOS has to climb a verticle cliff compared to what Amiga needs to do in terms of marketing.

Just keep in mind that the small Amiga market is NOT enough to keep it alive. The Amiga market must grow, and must continue to grow for the market to survive. That is the law of the capitalistic society we live in. Stagnation == death. So with that in mind we must follow a path that will attract new people to the market. If we can not do that then our Amiga days are numbered.

- Mike
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 134 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 05-Oct-2001 18:49 GMT
@Laire

Your problem is solved..and what is the result now ?

@ALL PPC developers...

All I want (and most of my friends,too) is to run the PowerUP, WarpUP software, OS3.9 and forthcoming OS4.0 modules
that I bought/beta-tested since 98 (Hyperion 3D Games, Earth 2140 from Epic Marketing, Wipeout, iFusion, e.t.c)
on a new PPC G3/G4 based motherboard...

All companies, developers have to sacrifice from pride for 1 last time...

Please for god`s sake come together in that Amiga meeting at Germany on Nov.17...
Please find a solution...

Without AmigaOS name MorphOS will have a hard time and without Pegasos and Gerald Carda`s
experiences, AmigaOS name will have a hard time...

Amithlon is a great product and yes X86 support is available, choosing that will
mean returning to 1997 PowerUP times (but this time for X86)
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 135 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV0rl0n on 05-Oct-2001 19:50 GMT
What I find sad is that all the people out there working their tails off to try and create something ... seem to spend as much time trying to either undo or damage everyone else. Why ?

A single product won't save any of you.
A single OS release or software release won't save you.
A single mother company that is pathetically weak won't work.
All the individuals working individually won't work.
All the individual shops, software houses, coders, advisers, politicians, OS and software engineers, HW engineers, all the man hours, all the sweat, all the tears, sadness, anger, misdirected hatred, frustration... all that

..

is wasted.

Right here.. right now, all there is is a smell of death. The vultures are circling.

If you run an Amiga business, then consider this.
It seems that there are three parties left in the amiga world.

1)
Amiga Inc and anyone working with them.

2)
The independants

3)
The people opposed to Amiga Inc for whatever reason.

Now .. could it be that everyone looses, which looks ominously the way its going. Or could people from all three groups find some way forward.

I would suggest that ALL parties approach Amiga again wih revised terms.


Anyway. Lastly I will just add that I don't think I have ever seem such displays as those seen in the Amiga world in terms of doing your dirty washing in public.

I can't see how I would do Business with any of you !

AdmV

AdmV
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 136 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 05-Oct-2001 20:12 GMT
It's nice to see everyone forgetting about elbox with their SharkPPC. OK it's not completely a new mainboard, but it's has a lot common with the Eyetech AmigaONE. But it will never operate standalone......
Beware for a sharkattack on the southeast show
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 137 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by John Atkins on 05-Oct-2001 20:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 129 (Ralph Schmidt):
>@john
>
>True..also a small team can reach a lot if they are all
>motivated, skilled and have the *right* plan...

I agree Ralph.

This is only my second post to any Amiga message board . The last time I posted a public Amiga message was on a BBS I have read many different things written over several months, and this current message thread. I was a very huge fan of the Amiga computer and still consider it the only computer I really enjoyed using. Today I use Windows 2000 and Linux at home, and Solaris in a very large Enterprise environment. I still have my Amiga’s around but never turn them on, or use the copy of UAE I have on my Windows 2000 machine. Here is my take on everything being talked about currently:

Emulators: I see these as a solution to keep Amiga users around. They allow you to run the old Amiga OS on top of another layer (the layer being a cut down Linux/X86 setup, or QNX). This is DEFNITY not a step forward, but keeps you from stepping back. If people decide to develop NEW programs in this environment, it will be utilized in an UPDATED OS environment that allows 68k emulation (which is what those emulators are emulating).

Amiga OS for PPC or x86: I think a PPC solution is better. I think if you pick either platform, you are starting from nothing. What is important is the application support. New applications would have to be written or ported to either an Amiga x86 or PPC OS. Now lets see what already exists on these platforms.
If you target x86 you are competing with Microsoft Windows and all the applications written for that OS. Most likely users with Amiga OS will dual boot with another OS (most likely Windows). I tend to think that Windows will find its place on any x86 machine out there currently. This scenario can be seen by looking at BeOS or QNX. They are GREAT OS’s, but most people will not run them on their x86 machine over Windows. The only exception to a successful x86 OS has been Linux, and that is covering the server end, and not the desktop end. The Enterprise server market has always been dominated by Unix variants, and Linux has just taken a stab at Microsoft in the mid-range server market.
If you target PPC you are competing with Apple. This company is the only leader in PPC, and a lot smaller when compared to Microsoft Windows. I think the market for PPC computers is still small, and much easier to get into (almost can be considered a new market). I think you have a much better chance convincing a PPC user to use Amiga OS, then a x86 user using Amiga OS. If you take a look at the current leader, Apple, you see that users that like and want to use their OS are willing to pay double for the hardware. I think Amiga PPC hardware could be really successful if it was cheaper then Apple’s hardware, and was able to run the MAC OS. This would allow them to not just target one OS, and allow a greater margin for hardware sales to people other then Amiga users. Most Amiga users would of course run Amiga OS on the hardware.
In either of the above cases, most Amiga users will most likely be past Amiga users. I think like MAC users, they are willing to buy the new PPC hardware if affordable. A good way to compare the price would be against current Apple hardware. If the hardware is much cheaper, then you should feel like your getting a deal. You can not compare prices for x86 hardware to PPC hardware. It is like comparing Apple’s and Orange’s. I do not think ANY small Amiga hardware company can compete on the manufacturing level for many of the large x86 motherboard designers. I think from a Amiga hardware developer view, the PPC is a better choice. From the AmigaOS PPC side, I think this takes away you going against Microsoft, and targets Apple. In this case, I would suggest the new AmigaOS would have a nice MAC emulator (make port one of the good old 68k ones around), and also allow the new PPC AmigaOS to be able to run on the current MAC hardware. This would increase AmigaOS software sales by pulling in MAC users. From the above you can see ways to improve both hardware and software sales by pulling in new PPC users, and targeting existing ones. Do you dive into a pool with PPC, or the ocean with x86. I think I would dive into the pool, and as we find our way around, make the pool bigger until it gets to the size of the ocean.

Why is the Amiga different from any other OS trying to make it: The two words to answer this is PAST and NAME. When the new Amiga OS is created, it must be able to execute to the highest %, old Amiga software. This is the biggest thing Amiga has over any other startup OS that tried to make it (BeOS, QNX, etc). Amiga has a WEALTH of old software (Aminet) that is available already. If the new OS is able to run the old software efficiently, this is an initial reason to buy into Amiga. BeOS or QNX do not have the desktop software to fall back on. QNX tried to offer POSIX compatibility to tap into Unix applications, but as stated above this is a SERVER role and not a desktop role. So QNX has not effectively increased their desktop application base. I think this is why the AmigaXL was created, to allow QNX to take advantage of this desktop software base. The problem is that it is x86 and it still has the problem I mentioned above about the x86 competition. A thing that would be interesting would be QNX PPC, with AmigaXL. That would be in direct competition with AmigaOS PPC and would be the direction I talk about. I think any state of the art OS running on PPC, and able to take advantage of an installed user base is a wise choice. The thing I mention above is in comparison to what Apple is doing with OS X. I think the way they are emulating the old MAC OS is bad, and think the Amiga programmers could make a new Amiga OS run old software a lot faster then Apple is (take a look at the benchmarks from AmigaXL and Amithon. Sorry if I made spelling errors with either of those names).
The second word I used was NAME. Yes the Amiga name is important. All you can do is hope that people that have rights to the Amiga name are the ones making the best decisions to Amiga’s future. I think if it is possible, try to make contributions to their cause, and not shoot down the work they are trying to do. You just hope the current owners of the Amiga name are willing to take in what the community has to offer, because that has always been the fluid for the Amiga machine, and that is the community. So all these Slashdot type comments are just making the Amiga community look bad.

One last thing to comment on is the Amiga DE. I think AmigaDE is another attempt to get into a new market, which is high level pda’s. The only person in this area is Microsoft with their PocketPC OS. To get into this market, Amiga teamed up with Tao , which has lead to the Tao and Sharp partnership. This will allow Amiga exposure on a large scale. You will see the AmigaDE name in the Sharp PDA’s and phones, and see applications that our written by Amiga developers. This environment will also allow the applications to run on multiple platforms for small applications. JAVA has proved this is a solution for small applications only and that large applications will need to be written specifically for that platform (large applications run too slow). The AmigaDE will allow Amiga developers to make applications that are available for a large user base. Amiga Inc has plans to make the Amiga OS the best OS to use as a development platform for the AmigaDE. Think of the idea of being able to run a program on your PDA, and input information, and then when you sync this information, it is SAVED into a directory structure of some sort (like by a application id). You are then able to run the AmigaDE player on your selected OS (being AmigaOS, Linux, or Windows) and run the same program on your PDA, and have access to the same data. Currently Palm developers make a Palm OS version that syncs with a Window’s based executable. I think the Amiga solution is much better. So I think the AmigaDE is another great addition to the Amiga lineup.
From my responses above you can see I agree with the choices Amiga Inc have made. I think they have made very wise and legitimate choices, and most Amiga users should be happy with them. The only problem we are having is bringing them into fruition. For this I think the community and the developers must get behind Amiga Inc, and help as much as possible. I also think Amiga Inc should be open and responsive to the community and the developers to the best their resources allow. These of course are my ideas on this topic and I am sure everyone will not agree. I just tried to make the most logical sense out of it all, and from how I look at it I applaud where Amiga Inc wants to take Amiga, and I just hope they have enough resources to make it. What will I do for a desktop machine if Amiga does not make it? I will most likely buy a MAC. Being an old Amiga user, I of course never really liked Mac OS because of it being inferior to the Amiga OS. I still think the MAC OS is inferior to the Amiga OS up until MAC OS X. I think MAC OS X changes the playing field big time. I think they are becoming more successful at a UNIX based desktop then Linux ever has. Many of the major players in Linux community have found a new home at Apple working on the Mac OS X. I think if Apple can be successful in the PPC market, then Amiga can do just as well.
Well sorry for this being so long, but I wanted to make the most detailed point available. I wish Amiga the best of luck, and hope I never have to buy that MAC : )
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 138 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 05-Oct-2001 21:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 122 (David Scheibler):
I was wrong about you David, you don't know how to quote. Withholding specific information until later in a fruitless attempt to stay on top of the conversation is rather droll and uninspiring. Nevertheless it matters not.

> 1. Yes, Haage said that they have no contracts with Amiga Inc.

And how does this differ from the OS3.9 release? From what I remember, there's no difference at all. So your point is? Though I would like to see an official announcement on it before I would consider it a threat to the existance of OS4.

> 2. How are beta testers testing some OS4 software?

> The answer was given by H&P's AmigaOS XL FAQ:
> (http://amigaxl.haage-partner.de/faqs-main-e.html)
> 30. What about AmigaOS 4.0

> So they are just testing the 68k parts of OS4 (for example Olsen even doesn't
> have a PPC card and he develops FFS2 and Roadstar TCP for OS4).

That's very possible, but why not use the existing PPC boards to test for any problems on WarpOS. Granted it's a different kernel and all but I'm sure with a few changes to the source a recalibration can be made for the PPC native programs to work with existing CSPPCs and BPPCs. It's all a matter of tweaking the final product before the initial release. This method reminds me of some of the PSX software releases. Even if Olaf doesn't have a PPC board, that doesn't mean he can't develop PPC software, it would just need to be compiled and tested remotely.

> 3. Juergen Haage said how he would like to change the concept (this hasn't been
> translated yet, I just summarize): He said that it is very unlikely that there are
> many users who will buy an AmigaOne mainboard if it costs around 1000DM (~500EUR).
> But there would be more customers that want to buy OS4 for around 100DM (~50EUR),
> like OS3.5/3.9. His idea is not to release OS4 for PPC only machines but also for 68k
> machines.

Allow me to reitterate a specific point I stated earlier -
: H&P are potentially worried that not enough A1 systems will be sold, so, they are
: treading on the line out in the open in hopes of relieving their own tensions.
...
: This is a project where they have obviously put down their lively hood on the very nip
: and tuck of the preverbial wire.
So, didn't I already state the same information without your summarization? H&P rely on a product to exist before anything can really happen, same with Eyetech. The whole thing is a vicious merry-go-round circle constantly trying to bite itself on the tail (pearl of wisdom anyone?). Think of it like building a new house, when you hoist the wall up, you need to have support on the other end or have one hell of a good balancing act ready to go.

> 4. The last sentence of Haage's answer reads more like he really doesn't think that
> Amiga Inc. can manage a project like OS4. If you read the German text it's definitively
> more than: "I can't comment this ATM".

Let me quote Martin Heine -
: The article contains quick and dirty translations of comments made yesterday and today
: by Mr. Haage
Also something interesting to note, the English article posted at Amiga-news.de isn't even the words of Jurgen but the translation of Sven Kirmse. Like I stated earlier, I only know enough German to be a health hazaard so any translations done by someone other than the person who stated it must be taken with a huge grain of salt and then some. Try this, take the English translation and run it through babel into German. Take the German translation and run it back through into English. The best translation is for the person who wrote the information to say it himself in the translated language so people won't read more into it than needed. "Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar"

> BTW: Where did Bill McEwen confirm that the AmigaOne board is running? The last
> official statement was that they try to integrate the CPU module.

Amiwest audio, it's on the Aminet. Listen to the point where he "lost the bet" and you'll hear it plain as day. If I remember correctly it's about 20 or so minutes in but it's there. Surprised you missed it, or did you bother to listen to it since MorphOS wasn't involved?

> If you don't believe just wait until November, but don't be surprised if all
> your hopes will get destroy.

Sorry David, I don't think the MorphOS development is going to completely cease functioning or take a flying leap off a bridge any time soon, I already know that much. But who ever said I couldn't dream. As for the AmigaOne being on time, that's a good one, I needed a good laugh today.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 139 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Xemos on 05-Oct-2001 21:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (Graham):
Will the public be able to Show this AmigaOne/AmigaOs4.0 at Cologne then ?or is it just a technologie Joke *A5000,Boxer,acces*8))))))))
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 140 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Golem on 06-Oct-2001 00:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 138 (the man in the shadows):
the man in the shadows wrote:

>Amiwest audio, it's on the Aminet. Listen to the point where he "lost
>the bet" and you'll hear it plain as day. If I remember correctly it's
>about 20 or so minutes in but it's there.

IIRC he also said Amithlon wasn't an emulator....

G
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 141 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 06-Oct-2001 00:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 140 (Golem):
> IIRC he also said Amithlon wasn't an emulator....

You went too far... go back some. The part about Amithlon "not" being an emulator he was hoping to sell a potential product where as the comment made about AmigaOne booting was entirely conversational basis, listen to the mp3 and you'll hear the difference. When you are trying to sell a product, it's 40% lies, 40% truth, and 20% off the MSRP. Where as the conversational speaking is generally done among friends where you are not likely to lie about something you would eat your words over later.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 142 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 06-Oct-2001 01:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Ralph Schmidt):
ralph

amazing you have finally admitted the amiga brand would be beneficial to morphos..
were you genuine about your statement that you could develop Morph for other hardware once morph for bplan is done? When do u expect morph to be finished at a level where it is sold commercialy with pegasos/merlancia?

That is prob the main reason why amiga didin't choose morphos
I think the amigaone will be released eventually.. If it runs the same os well maybe most of the animosity from amiga inc fans would go away.

anyway what i am saying is maybe what a lot of people on this thread believe: that MorphOS as OS4 would be the best solution for everyone EVEN FOR YOU :)
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 143 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 06-Oct-2001 03:26 GMT
We need a AmigaOS that can be run on Bplan Pegasos and Escena AmigaOne.

BPlan, Eyetech, Escena, H&P, MorphOS Team, Amiga Inc should come together
in Germany and have to find a solution...

Think that you want to play Earth 2150 and SIN. They will be available
in a couple of months...But currently you have to buy 2 different OSes
and motherboards (at least in theory) before to play this games...
This will confuse the users and most of them probably won`t buy none
of them and migrate to other platforms..

At the end this hurts developers,too...

One PPC Amigas on ALL available PPC solutions is the ONLY solution...
Please just gather under the name of AMIGAOS...

At the end all of your efforts will be written in the credits..and you
will be remembered as the people who gave a rebirth to AmigaOS.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 144 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Logan on 06-Oct-2001 03:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 137 (John Atkins):
Brilliant post John!
Actually seems to be the only post making sense in all this thread. :P
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 145 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 06-Oct-2001 04:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (Sinan Gurkan):
I made some typing errors in my previous post
correction1: ...will buy none of them...
correction2: One PPC AmigaOS...
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 146 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 06-Oct-2001 08:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 141 (the man in the shadows):
Amiga doesn't have any distribution rights for selling Amithlon. And I
think they never had. It would be interesting to know why Bernie and Harald
chose H&P as distributer and not the "official" Amiga, Inc.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 147 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 06-Oct-2001 08:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 142 (adam ceremuga):
@adam ceremuga>amazing you have finally admitted the amiga brand would be beneficial to morphos..Why shouldn`t i ? But if it`s not possible to licenceit then we have to be prepared.>were you genuine about your statement that you could develop>Morph for other hardware once morph for bplan is done?>When do u expect morph to be finished at a level>where it is sold commercialy with pegasos/merlancia?adam..i'm *part* of bplan and the pegasos is*our* project which also merlancia is interestedin. MorphOS is developed for PowerUP and the Pegasosat the moment.When the OS matured we will also target other HWlike Macs which was also said several times before.Please try to inform yourself a little bit beforeyou draw your conflusions:-)>That is prob the main reason why amiga didin't choose morphosLook..i have a contract here from amiga for about6 weeks. But i won`t sign it because AInc isnot able to lead and control an OS project.I don`t say this out of bad will but that`smine, other OS developers and also Mr. Haageopinion.This is a common conclusion of severalindependent parties.>I think the amigaone will be released eventually..you should have said "believe" because that`swhat it is.>If it runs the same os well maybe most of the>animosity from amiga inc fans would go away.Well..that`s what will happen for PPC.>anyway what i am saying is maybe what a lot of>people on this thread believe: that MorphOS as>OS4 would be the best solution for everyone>EVEN FOR YOU :)Read my paragraph again about licence prices.Our *rumour* knowledge is that AmigaXL containsa 100DM(~50$) licence chunk. I don't know ifthis is true but it wouldn`t surprise me.Everybody out there should know that suchprices would forbid any more serious developmentto the product.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 148 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 06-Oct-2001 09:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 145 (Sinan Gurkan):
@SinanThen buy none of them because of virtual productsannounced by others. That`s all your choice.Then wait for Hyperion trying to realize yourwished AmigaOS4 after H&P has no interestanymore bothering to waste time on not comingHW.
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 149 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Mahen on 06-Oct-2001 10:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (Ralph Schmidt):
> >anyway what i am saying is maybe what a lot of
> >people on this thread believe: that MorphOS as
> >OS4 would be the best solution for everyone
> >EVEN FOR YOU :)
> Read my paragraph again about licence prices.
> Our *rumour* knowledge is that AmigaXL contains
> a 100DM(~50$) licence chunk. I don't know if
> this is true but it wouldn`t surprise me.
> Everybody out there should know that such
> prices would forbid any more serious development
> to the product.

I think you should definitely try to find an agreement
with AInc. as you obviously require each other. and
b/c it seems that is the only possible solution.

It should be clear to everyone: that'll be MorphOS
or nothing. I don't believe in miracles.
This is the only possible salvation for the Amiga
community. One commun path. We have to stop
tearing the Amiga community apart with this
humbug of amigaOS4 which will never be released.

Please, Ralph, act now.

(just my two cents though)
"party on:-)" (R.S.) : Comment 150 of 233ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 06-Oct-2001 11:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 146 (David Scheibler):
They didn't, as the AmiWest show showed.

For reasons best known to themselves, Amiga Inc could not, or would not, finalise a contract, and passed the ball to H&P. Bernie and Harald were not given a choice, not that any of that is relevant now.
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