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[News] AmigaONE to be released next yearANN.lu
Posted on 30-Oct-2001 15:57 GMT by Christian Kemp204 comments
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Alain writes: Eyetech made an annoucement. Check it out
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 151 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Lange on 31-Oct-2001 20:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 148 (Mike Veroukis):
That isn't the point. I think you'll see AmigaOS 4.0 one day. But you'll never see Eyetech's AmigaOne. Amiga Inc. has to do some decessions (AOS4 for expanded "Classic" Amigas, AOS4 for 68k-Amigas (= Amithlon) etc.).
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 152 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 31-Oct-2001 20:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 149 (Jürgen Lange):
H&P were ALREADY committed to AmigaXL long before May. Bernie and Harald started work on Amithlon even before that, so that Amithlon was already at a working stage in May, albeit an alpha one.
All I'm saying is that you need to take these statements with a pinch of salt. Assume for a minute that H&P had stalled OS 4.0 development for their own reasons - wouldn't it be easier to justify that move by blaming someone else's part in the proceedings? The reason is that I don't believe H&P had enough of OS 4.0 finished by May to actually need the AmigaOne to continue.
Of course, I have no PROOF of any of that, any more than you have any proof that Alan is lying.
In this business, I don't expect anyone will tell you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 153 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Lange on 31-Oct-2001 20:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 150 (Mike Veroukis):
I don't know much about Eyetech and I don't know much about Alan, but I see the facts. Alan isn't developing the AmigaOne by himself. This part is done by Escena. Are they doing a good job? I hope, Alan knows. I don't.
On the other hand you have to know that a project like this is very, very expensive. You need a market to get your money back. Is the Amiga market big enough? Is there a chance, to earn some money with a product like the AmigaOne or the Pegasos? I think this will be the biggest problem in the future of PPC-Amiga.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 154 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht (darklite) on 31-Oct-2001 21:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Dave):
>I wonder if Amiga had been more open about their problems whether or not the members of this "community" would have been big enough to volunteer /skilled/ assistance for free ( or pay on returns ) to help them.
What kind of help? maybe some freelance work for AmigaOS4? Hello, what have we here? It's AROS! AInc. are too damn busy trying to protect their crappy IP to allow anyone to help.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 155 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 31-Oct-2001 21:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (Jürgen Lange):
>I don't know much about Eyetech and I don't know much about Alan, but I see >the facts. Alan isn't developing the AmigaOne by himself. This part is done by >Escena. Are they doing a good job? I hope, Alan knows. I don't.
Well, I can't say I know anything significant about EyeTech or anything at all about Escena. But it's their neck’s on the line, so I hope they know what they're doing. I'll hold off judgment on their development teams until I see a product. Just because they don't have extensive experience in Amiga motherboard design (who does?!?) doesn't mean they can't do it. When the Americans put people on the moon they had no experience to draw from, yet they did it and did it well. We need companies like EyeTech and Escena to pioneer new technology. So let's see what they do and then decide if it was done well or not.
>On the other hand you have to know that a project like this is very, very >expensive. You need a market to get your money back. Is the Amiga market big >enough? Is there a chance, to earn some money with a product like the AmigaOne >or the Pegasos? I think this will be the biggest problem in the future of PPC->Amiga.
Yes, you have a good valid point here and I might even agree with you. I've always argued against PPC in favour of x86. However this is not what we're debating here. I simply don't see any evidence that we are being lied to. That is really all that I am arguing here. I think too many people believe the rumors and pay no attention to the (few) official comments. Rumors are interesting, but I wouldn't base any decisions on them.
- Mike
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 156 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 31-Oct-2001 21:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 118 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>It should be understood that work on OS 4.0 has already been under way for months and that we are NOT starting from scratch.
Work was already undertaken by Olaf Barthel, the P96 team, H&P, ourselves and quite a number of other developers.
Huh? I contacted Olaf Barthel about the status of datatypes on OS4. He even had absolutely NO idea who was doing OS4.
>OS 4.0 still relies on the custom chips so it cannot be made to run on the Pegasos mobo "as is".
The custom chips are nothing more then a dongle. It's easy to remove dependence on those, just look at Draco, MorphOS and Amithlon.
I think it's only there to annoy BPlan, not because of a technical problem.
>Whether the Pegasos mobo is supported in OS 4.2 or before, is a decision for Amiga Inc to make, not for Hyperion.
I can already guess what the answer will be.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 157 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 31-Oct-2001 22:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (Mart):
"-Every month delay means that almost every part that A1 is made of wil be
cheaper and cheaper (example: RAM.HD,CPU's costs more today then they will next month)
-So, the final retail price of the A1 will shrink with every month delay, OR they will
use 'better' and 'faster' parts for the same price tag..."
Yes, and when we let the number of months increase to infinite, the A1 will be free eventually!
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 158 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 31-Oct-2001 22:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 155 (Mike Veroukis):
>When the Americans put people on the moon they had no experience to draw from, yet they did it and did it well.
Note that ALOT of research has been done before the actual landing, it's not like they just decided one day to land on the moon :)
(Actually, there's a weirdo in Leuven, Belgium that claims the moonlanding was faked, very amusing :) - but there is a slight possibility that he's right)
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 159 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 31-Oct-2001 22:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 156 (Brecht [darklite]):
I also doubt that Amiga is able to manage the whole thing and I doubt
that they have done so much work already: Just a quote of Markus
Poellmann(H&P) who was asked in the Storm ML where you can report
Installer bugs:
"You could try to report this problem to them[Amiga Inc.]. But I don't
know any contact address of Amiga Inc. for bug reports." (Oct. 29th, 2001)
It's a clear language isn't it?
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 160 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Roald Oosterhoff on 31-Oct-2001 23:06 GMT
Wow....I love this =)....the Amiga soap-opera just continued with a brand new episode.
This stuff is what keeps me laughing.
Guess I lost faith in Amiga after Gateway acquired the rights.
Oh well....my A1200 still makes a great email/irc terminal ;-)
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 161 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by CUF on 01-Nov-2001 00:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Brecht (darklite)):
I agree with you, people doesn't understand that MorphOS is at the eyes of the normal user like regular AmigaOS with lots of improvements and PPC compiled.
This is making so much damage to the community, after seeing it in Cologne running in the pegasos mobo, a lot of people will start to ask why to make
another AmigaOS having MorphOS.
Time to time!
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 162 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by CUF on 01-Nov-2001 00:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 103 (Solar (BAUD)):
There are two problems with that:
1) The Pegasos doesn´t support the plug-in of AGA boards, and so cannot
run AmigaOS 4.0 - read the Eyetech statement again.
As long as we know Pegasos runs MorphOS, a compatible AmigaOS 3.x operating system, there are no programs for AmigaOS 4 yet, so why to run AmigaOS???
2) If the Pegasos board doesn´t run AmigaOS 4.0 but MorphOS, especially
Hyperion *cannot* support it (as they publically stated previously) since
their porting licenses include *AmigaOS* *only*, and MorphOS does not
qualify as *Amiga*OS.
And where says that they cannot re-do some things?
So, no Pegasos support until AmigaOS 4.2 ("make OS4 fully device retargetable,
allowing all applications to be able to operate without the need for physically
attached older Amiga hardware").
And I still don´t see the significant advantage of the Pegasos board,
technology-wise.
Of course you don't see anything, did you noticed that MorpOS is an Operating system AmigaOS 68k compatible, able to run PPC or WarpOS applications without
the need of the older chipset, I mean is completely RTG????
Have you noticed that MorphOS achieved first the same goals that AmigaOS 4.x is being planned???
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 163 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Nov-2001 03:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 103 (Solar (BAUD)):
>And I still don´t see the significant advantage of the Pegasos board,
>technology-wise.
>
Pegasos is professional premium Amiga Hardware designed by Gerald Carda with a
proven track record. Dave Haynie is head of the development team of bplan partner
Merlancia. The board is standalone, equipped with every important interface,
highly integrated, small but expandable and most likely not overpriced. It seems
to be more open for a choice of operating systems and it fulfills the Zico specs
better than AmigaONE.
Whereas the AOne has not been shown running in public, has only USB and IDE onboard,
slower bus/Ram/AGP speeds and afaik no support for bursts and writecombining etc.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 164 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan on 01-Nov-2001 05:33 GMT
Hi
I think Escena has the biggest responsibility here..
If Escena finds out if they will not be able to finish
AmigaOne motherboard in 2002, they should inform their
partners...
I think the custom design Escena motherboard is another
cause of these delays..
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 165 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by dark ness on 01-Nov-2001 06:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (Jürgen Lange):
/*
[...] Is the Amiga market big enough? Is there a chance, to earn some money with a product like the AmigaOne or the Pegasos? [...]
*/
Don't you think AmigaInc and others 'actors' already answered those question before starting the AOne project ?
If you think : "no", maybe should you open your mind to the economic reality of the world...
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 166 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 01-Nov-2001 07:29 GMT
You really like the word "actors" dont you? /me thinks someones spent
too much on a design/ucd/architecture course ;)
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 167 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Solar (BAUD) on 01-Nov-2001 08:30 GMT
> As long as we know Pegasos runs MorphOS, a compatible
> AmigaOS 3.x operating system, there are no programs for
> AmigaOS 4 yet, so why to run AmigaOS???
The software list of MorphOS native applications doesn´t blow me out of my socks either. And the other point you (and all others I ever challenged with this before) completely ignore is: What is the long term plan for MorphOS, compared to the long term plan of AmigaOS?
>> And I still don´t see the significant advantage of the Pegasos board,
>> technology-wise.
> Of course you don't see anything, did you noticed that MorpOS is an
> Operating system AmigaOS 68k compatible, able to run PPC or WarpOS
> applications without the need of the older chipset, I mean is completely
> RTG???
Proving what? I asked you about the advantage of the Pegasos board, technology wise, not about MorphOS.
> Pegasos is professional premium Amiga Hardware designed by...
I don't care *who* did it, I am only interested in *what* it is like.
> The board is standalone, equipped with every important interface...
None of the points you make does not hold true for the AOne just as fall, for all we know.
> more open for a choice of operating systems
If I want to run Linux, I get myself an even cheaper x86 box, which is even *more* open for a choice of OS. I am not interested in MorphOS for reasons outlined above. So what's your point?
> and it fulfills the Zico specs better than AmigaONE.
Which achieves what? The Zico specs are about being able to run AmigaOS, which the Pegasos board does *not* while the AmigaOne *does*. Fulfilling the Zico specs is not an achievement in itself.
> Whereas the AOne has not been shown running in public, has only USB and IDE
> onboard,
While the Pegasos has Firewire and SCSI. Both are only needed by few, and can be added by PCI cards, so there's no need to pay for them if you don't need 'em. No point.
> slower bus/Ram/AGP speeds and afaik no support for bursts and
> writecombining etc.
Oh, so you already have an AOne board in your hands for comparison, and even have run bus benchmarks on it?
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 168 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by kurq on 01-Nov-2001 09:07 GMT
Well, in my humble opinion:
Pegasos hardware designers are light years better than the Escena guys who actually can solve many issues regarding bus management. But i do not think pegasos with morphos in its shoulders follows the amiga concepts. I beleieve that what they are trying to do, is to make all the amiga comunity, or most of it buy a new product that has some similarities with the Amiga now, but in the future will be totally different (for eg. not supporting current amiga ppc boards), they are trying to sell you a mobo with another o.s. not a concept, like the Amiga is.
On the other hand Amiga shows its stupidity by relying on a bunch of creepy nerds A.k.a. Escena. They should have released os4 by now on another plattform, as the hardware is not finished and it isn't because money is short, just because they don't know how to handle the ppc bus.
Furthermore, wouldn't it be a better solution if the betrayed by "all" amiga comunity delivers the new amiga by itself? Why don't we use our knowledge to create a new Amiga. I mean we do have some guys that know how to make accelerators and fancy hardware, what if we all make a public domain hardware new amiga? Well at least we could have aros as an o.s. which is by the way "really being developed".
I believe amiga inc. will sooner or later due to their own stuppidity go bankrupt. We, the amiga comunity, are the only amiga power source still alive!!!
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 169 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Julian on 01-Nov-2001 10:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (Bill Hoggett):
The only point I was trying to make is that Eyetech would have known that the release of the A1 and OS4.0 was not going to happen in November for quite a time now, even if for the simple reason that dev on their own A1 project was put on ice. Knowing this, they've taken until now to declare that A1 won't be there. Now, personally I don't give a damn one way or the other. It just annoys the hell out of me that people are so ready to bash Amiga and paint Eyetech in a golden light over this affair. Eyetch would definitly have been in a position quite a time ago to have declared that the A1 was going to be delayed, but they didn't, just as Amiga didn't announce a delay to OS4.0.
I'm personally not tring to bash either compamny. I think they are doing what they have to do, simple as that. It's just this continual one-sided view that poeple want to adopt that gets on my nerves
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 170 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 10:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Alan Redhouse):
Uhm...ok we have been waiting for ages another couple of months will not hurt.
But what about A1200 owners? Is the OS4 going to run on the BlizzardsPPC as well
or is it just for A3000/4000?
Loriano
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 171 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Julian on 01-Nov-2001 10:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 170 (Loriano):
I'm more interested where Elbox, the mediator, and the prospective SharkPPC+ fit into this equation (if at all).
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 172 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 01-Nov-2001 10:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 170 (Loriano):
Come on, if there was the possibility of running OS4 on BlizzPPCs how
many AmigaOnes would be sold?
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 173 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Nov-2001 10:55 GMT
In MAY - Amiga Inc. and Eyetech both knew that the AmigaOne was seriously affected by financial problems at Amiga Inc. and that they might not be able to complete it AT ALL. That is not a delay, it's a possible cancellation.
In JUNE - Amiga Inc. and Eyetech both make positive announcements, indicating the Amiga OS4 and the AmigaOne are on schedule. Amiga asks for $100 for a "Party pack" which is blatently (look at the numbers) a deposit for Amiga OS4 / AmigaOne.
Is it illegal to offer something you have no capacity to deliver? How about just plain disgraceful? Amiga Inc. is in big financial trouble like previous incarnations, and they were hoping to use Amigans to pay for their operating expenses to continue work on AmigaDE. Noble? More like selfish I think.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 174 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 10:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (David Scheibler):
Right. So why A3000/4000 then? Why discriminating? I have spent an incredible
amount of money on my Amiga and you are telling me that I won't be able to
run OS4 on the A1200? So I will have to sell it and get a 4000?I don't get it.
Obviously owners of pumped up 1200s will buy the A1 too, but I just find it
annoying the fact, not verified yet, that the OS4 won't be available for the
Blizzards.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 175 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 01-Nov-2001 11:23 GMT
Suppose we were running Amiga, and had restricted funds, what would we focus first on?
The part of the venture with the fastest return on investment.
AmigaDE or AmigaOne?
Also part of the overall philosopy is that the Amiga computer will become a gateway for AmigaDE and is there to support AmigaDE.
Maybe part of the business plan was for AmigaDE to cross subsidise OS4.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 176 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Solar (BAUD) on 01-Nov-2001 12:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 174 (Loriano):
A few days ago, official standpoint was "no AmigaOS 4 for existing PPC boards at all". Now they say it will be available for A3k/A4k, and what happens, people start whining "why not A1200 too" instead of being happy about the A3k/A4k part.
That´s about like, "why doesn´t WormsDC run on ECS Amigas", or "why do I need a graphics card to run Heretic II", or "why do I need a brain to submit postings".
Ever heard of "smallest common denominator", and "leave the old stuff behind"?
Oh, I forgot, that was the holy cow of the "true" Amigans...
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 177 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 01-Nov-2001 12:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 176 (Solar (BAUD)):
>A few days ago, official standpoint was "no AmigaOS 4 for existing PPC boards at all". Now they say it will be available for A3k/A4k, and what happens, people start whining "why not A1200 too" instead of being happy about the A3k/A4k part.
It's only normal. If it's possible to run OS4 on A3k/A4k, don't tell me it's not possible to run it on an a1200. Why wouldn't people be angry if their current hardware is more then suffisant to run OS4 but they are forced to buy an expensive A1?
>That´s about like, "why doesn´t WormsDC run on ECS Amigas", or "why do I need a graphics card to run Heretic II", or "why do I need a brain to submit postings".
That's completely different. An a1200+ppc can run OS4 easily, there are no technical problems like in your examples.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 178 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 12:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Brecht [darklite]):
Well said! If it can run on A4000 it can run on A1200. I don't understand
Solar at all. He says "Instead of being happy about the A3k/A4k part". LOL! Hello?
I bet you have an Amiga 3/4000 haven't you so all is well :)
Should we chuck our expensive 1200s? If so at this point I move onto AmigaOS XL since
the 1200 can only run the OS3.9. At least with the XL I have more speed and can
run pc software too. :)
Solar says:"That´s about like, "why doesn´t WormsDC run on ECS Amigas",
or "why do I need a graphics card to run Heretic II" ehm...sorry but you have
missed the point completely mate! You also speak without knowing what kind of
1200 I have. I am not complaining about Worms on...ECS machines(never liked the game anyway),
those ECS Amigas went in the skip years ago, I am not complaining about
trying to run H II without gfx card,for your information there is a Permedia2
powering this beast. All this to tell you that I, like many others, have upgraded
everytime we needed to, I have bought every single magazine to support the Amiga
and supported Commodore since 1983, so please do not tell me that I want to run software
without upgrading. Cheers :)
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 179 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Solar (BAUD) on 01-Nov-2001 13:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 178 (Loriano):
@ Brecht:
> An a1200+ppc can run OS4 easily, there are no technical problems like in
> your examples.
The technology of A1200 PPC machines *is* severly limited when compared to A3k/A4k machines. The problem is in setting a new, smallest common denominator. Read on.
@ Loriano:
> I bet you have an Amiga 3/4000 haven't you so all is well :)
*rotfl*
1) My only AGA Amiga ever was an A1200, beefed up to the maximum possible by the end of 1999, when it dropped dead.
2) I don´t even own Amiga hardware anymore, so I couldn´t care less which Amiga hardware is supported and which is not.
But even if I still *had* my 603e+/BVision/MelodyPro/Twister/Fiberline Amiga1200, I would be *offended* to see it becoming the "official smallest common denominator" of AmigaOS 4.
Amiga Inc. made it clear that it´s OK with them if some third party makes OS 4 run on hardware other than the AOne. But it would be a gross mistake for them to pay attention to 1992 low-end budget mainboards, period.
> Should we chuck our expensive 1200s?
If you want to run tomorrow´s operating system, YES goddamnit!
> If so at this point I move onto AmigaOS XL since
> the 1200 can only run the OS3.9. At least with the
> XL I have more speed and can run pc software too. :)
Ah, insight.
> You also speak without knowing what kind of 1200 I have.
I don´t care, it´s very likely that I´ve been there, done that.
> those ECS Amigas went in the skip years ago
And those AGA Amigas should do that today. (Or, rather, as soon as the AOne is available.)
> All this to tell you that I, like many others, have upgraded
> everytime we needed to, I have bought every single magazine to support the
> Amiga and supported Commodore since 1983, so please do not tell me that I
> want to run software without upgrading.
Why not upgrading to a much more powerful motherboard?
Yes, we have spend literally thousands on our beloved Amigas, pushing them far beyond design and intention. They became our babies, we held on to them for the better part of a decade, and we know every chip on the board by name.
But there´s a lesson small children learn when they lose their dog, or cat: There is a time when you have to say good-bye.
And you know what? You don´t even have to, you can *keep* your venerable A1200. But if you want tomorrow´s technology, why are you so stubbornly refusing to let yesterday´s technology go?
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 180 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Nov-2001 14:00 GMT
Why not the A1200 w Blizzard?
Remember someone has to make the Zico compatibility layer for each of the accelerator boards.
Hyperion (or someone else in the group) has volunteered (been paid to) make the layer for the CPCC. Probably since development started on that system [see eyetech faq], and to increase market of course. IMO this had a high probablity of being made anyways.
Your A1200 is not "garbage" it is still needed for the AOne-A1200-Os4.0 system.
Your blizzard is "garbage", just like any other A1200 accelerator.
The only thing that has changed is that the A3/4000+CPPC systems are not "garbage" now
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 181 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 01-Nov-2001 14:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 179 (Solar (BAUD)):
>The technology of A1200 PPC machines *is* severly limited when compared to A3k/A4k machines. The problem is in setting a new, smallest common denominator. Read on.
And yet an A1 requires an a1200. Contradictio in terminis. Don't tell me that A3k/A4k PPC boards are so much better. Is an A1 really that much better than an a1200+pcc or a4k/a3k6+ppc?
>And those AGA Amigas should do that today. (Or, rather, as soon as the AOne is available.)
Again: the A1 needs an a1200 mobo. For gods sake, AGA should have been dropped years ago.
>Why not upgrading to a much more powerful motherboard?
Because his current setup is not really outdated compared to the a1 and he prolly has spent alot of money on it. The A1 won't be cheap either.
>And you know what? You don´t even have to, you can *keep* your venerable A1200. But if you want tomorrow´s technology, why are you so stubbornly refusing to let yesterday´s technology go?
Tell that to AInc/Eyetech, they are using the a1200 as a dongle.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 182 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 14:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 179 (Solar (BAUD)):
>The technology of A1200 PPC machines *is* severly limited
>when compared to A3k/A4k machines.
It might be but since the A1200 IS the machine that kept us alive and not
certainly the 4000 why not consider it? There are much more A1200s than A4000s
around, and also the A4000s are more expensive. That's why Eyetech opted for
an A1 with 1200 slot instead of the 4000. So it's easy for an unexpanded 1200
to upgrade to an A1 but less easy for an A1200 060 60Mhz, PPC 266Mhz, 130 Mb Ram,
BVision, PCI and Voodoo3, Ethernet Cable/Modem and so on to bloody upgrade don't you think?
So THE POINT IS, for these people, like the A4000 owners of CPPC, the OS4 should be available.
>I would be *offended* to see it becoming the "official smallest common denominator" of AmigaOS 4.
NO and not again, you miss the point again mate. I am not saying the A1200 should
be the "smallest common whatever", I am not saying that.
I am saying since our machines are this powerful and they intend to make OS4 run
on CPPC, I ask "Why not the 1200 PPC?"
>it would be a gross mistake for them to pay attention to 1992 low-end budget mainboards.
I agree with you. But again I can't see the point of not having the OS4
running on A1200PPC. Period! :)
> those ECS Amigas went in the skip years ago and those AGA Amigas should
do that today. (Or, rather, as soon as the AOne is available.)
Not talking about AGA...
>Why not upgrading to a much more powerful motherboard?
I am not saying not too. I don't want to keep my 1200 for ever! I want a faster motherboard
and stuff, obviously, I am not like those A500 people with Kickstart1.3 but,
and we go back to the point, why not the beefed up 1200s as well as beefed up
4000s?
>But if you want tomorrow´s technology, why are you so stubbornly refusing to let yesterday´s technology go?
I am not refusing to let it go. I got a C64 in '83, I let it go when the A500
came out and so on...and before we talk about tomorrow's technology, you first
show me the new A1 and OS4 then we can talk, until now I have only seen and touched
real, third parties hardware and software...
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 183 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 14:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 181 (Brecht [darklite]):
Thank you, thank you Brecht. :)
My 603 266Mhz kicks CPPC's ass at any time even though the CPPC is 64bit.
And again this makes me angry; why on heart the 1200 owners had to get a 603 32 bit
and the 4000's owners got the more powerful 604? Man it's so infuriating.
This is a mistake not to be repeated in the future. If you have to give the
humble 1200 a new cpu please give the same as the 4000, we will pay the same
money, we are not afraid. :)
Cheers
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 184 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Alan Watson on 01-Nov-2001 15:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 181 (Brecht [darklite]):
>And yet an A1 requires an a1200. Contradictio in terminis. Don't tell me that >A3k/A4k PPC boards are so much better. Is an A1 really that much better than >an a1200+pcc or a4k/a3k6+ppc?
It will be.Faster processor,faster gfx bus,proper caches.Sort of like comparing an 020+AGA to an 060+G-Rex/Mediator+Voodoo 3(at least)
>Again: the A1 needs an a1200 mobo. For gods sake, AGA should have been dropped >years ago.
At the moment yes.But if you don't like the thought of this,then wait for the standalone version:)I agree that AGA should have been buried years ago,along with 030 accelerators(mabey 040 ones as well)and 4mb ram upgrade cards.How anybody can still manage to sell these now I'll never know...:-/
>Because his current setup is not really outdated compared to the a1 and he >prolly has spent alot of money on it. The A1 won't be cheap either.
What Amiga hardware is???
>Tell that to AInc/Eyetech, they are using the a1200 as a dongle.
For compatability reasons I expect.Some people will still want to use apps that bang the A1200's chipset directly.Until something similar is available that's RTG based(be it audio or gfx)then at least you can still use it on the A1.
If they hadn't kept AGA compatability you'd have had some people complaining about it.Since they have kept it,you have people complaining that they've done this.They can't win.We should be glad that at least they are doing something.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 185 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Nov-2001 15:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (Solar (BAUD)):
>While the Pegasos has Firewire and SCSI. Both are only needed by few,
>and can be added by PCI cards, so there's no need to pay for them if
>you don't need 'em. No point.
>
You are wrong, Pegasos has no SCSI. You really should get your facts
right and take a look at http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/news/news05_e.html
Paying for integrated parts on the motherboard is a no issue since it
is much cheaper to get a chip/interface onboard than buying a special
PCI card. It's all about standards!
Or is Zico in your eyes a more or less random recommendation?
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 186 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 01-Nov-2001 15:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 178 (Loriano):
>All this to tell you that I, like many others, have upgraded
>everytime we needed to, I have bought every single magazine to support the >Amiga and supported Commodore since 1983, so please do not tell me that I want >to run software without upgrading. Cheers :)
Oh god! Are you aware of the fact that in the mainstream computing world (x86 hardware based machines) one needs to upgrade all major components (including MB, CPU and video card) atleast once every 2 to 3 years. Yes, it's great that you upgraded your system, but if you thought those upgrades would last you for another 10 years then you're fooling yourself. Your Permidia2 video card and PPC CPU is very outdated by todays standards. I would suggest getting rid of your PPC card and your video card, buy an AmigaOne when it comes out along with a more modern video card. If you wanna live in the past go ahead, but don't wine like a kid when the rest of the world passes you by.
I have an A4000 and to be honest I have no idea what I'm gonna do with it. I could upgrade it with a PCI bus and perhaps get the SharkPPC when it comes out... But the idea of running all that new hardware on such an old motherboard bothers me. I'd like to replace the whole thing if I could. It's ancient!!! I think I'd say the same thing if I had an A1200. It's a shame the Amiga hardware is so expensive, but technology moves on just the same.
- Mike
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 187 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 15:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Mike Veroukis):
>Are you aware of the fact that in the mainstream computing world
(x86 hardware based machines) one needs to upgrade all major components
(including MB, CPU and video card) atleast once every 2 to 3 years.
Yes I have noticed that duh!
>Yes, it's great that you upgraded your system, but if you thought
those upgrades would last you for another 10 years then you're
fooling yourself.
Hello??? Hello???? Man! Is it something to do with the english language?
Do you understand?
Hey obviously you haven't read the previous posts so I am not even going
to waist my time in answering this rubbish! Please go and read my previous
postings before you say this load of c**p!
>Your Permidia2 video card and PPC CPU is very
outdated by todays standards.
God! It is outdated by modern standards ok WE ALL know that. But as an AMIGA not
a mainstream pc is top stuff but if you can't see it that means you have never
used one. Obvioulsy an A4000 owner with 030 25mhz in it.
>I would suggest getting rid of your PPC card and your video card, buy an AmigaOne when it comes out
along with a more modern video card.
This is absolutely nonsense, you haven't followed the argument hence you are
talking rubbish. No one is saying not to buy an Amiga One, no one is saying
that, the POINT WAS WHY NOT OS 4 ON beefed up 1200s and YES on A4000!
ahhh! Why am I even answering this?
>If you wanna live in the past go ahead, but don't wine like a kid when the rest of the
world passes you by.
Crikey man! What are you talking about? Live in the past? Who? You are maybe,
considering, as you say, that you have an A4000 and you don't know what to do
with it. I WOULD. PCI, Vodoo3, Tv cards and maybe an A1 later on. Absolutely
waste of space. Wine like a kid? (child). What are you talking about. No one
said NOT TO BUY the A1! Everyone wants one, I want one but the argument was
about something else completely. grrr!
>the idea of running all that new hardware on such an old motherboard
bothers me. I'd like to replace the whole thing if I could. It's ancient!!! I
think I'd say the same thing if I had an A1200. It's a shame the Amiga hardware
is so expensive, but technology moves on just the same.
uhm...maybe it's time for you to think about buying a pc mate if you don'twant
ancient mobos. You will find someone willing to buy an A4000 not to worry :)
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 188 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Nov-2001 15:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 179 (Solar (BAUD)):
>>An a1200+ppc can run OS4 easily, there are no technical problems like in
>>our examples.
>
>The technology of A1200 PPC machines *is* severly limited when compared to
>A3k/A4k machines.
>
I think it is more a political thing...there is AOne1200, but no AOne4000.
So instead of ignoring the A4000 completely (with already installed expensive
PPC hardware), they want to reach the existing userbase (and Hyperion's current
main customers). Even if the AOne does not show up in time, they have a system
they can develop on and users to whom they can sell the new stuff, without taking
away AOne's market for the time being.
I am sure it would be no big problem to run OS4 on A1200+PPC, but A4000 with GRex
is indeed the better platform technology-wise (64Bit Ram, PPC604e, all PCI slots
with DMA and 50MB/s (?) burst mode from PCI->Ram).
Anyone who does not like these decisions and protectionism for AOne, feel free to
use Morphos! :-)
>
>The problem is in setting a new, smallest common denominator.
>
I hope we don't stick with 68k for the sake of Amithlon etc. ;¬)
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 189 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 01-Nov-2001 16:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 183 (Loriano):
A1200 owners could get CSPPC too if you're willing to buy a Z3 board.
Anyway, as to why no OS4.0 for BPPC, one word: iFusion. The same code
that does work on CSPPC, and ought to work on BPPC, doesn't. The BPPC
seems to be bugged. Perhaps they don't want to deal with that?
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 190 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 01-Nov-2001 16:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 188 (Anonymous):
>I hope we don't stick with 68k for the sake of Amithlon etc. ;¬)
It's not a crazy idea actually, as we're supposed to migrate to VP code apps anyway. 68k emulation is fast enough for most applications.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 191 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 16:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 189 (ehaines):
>Anyway, as to why no OS4.0 for BPPC, one word: iFusion. The same code
that does work on CSPPC, and ought to work on BPPC, doesn't. The BPPC
seems to be bugged. Perhaps they don't want to deal with that?
Maybe, even though they have said that iFusion will soon work on the
BPPC. About the bug in the BPPC, I find it quite incredible that this is the
case. Strangely the only piece of software that doesn't run on the BPPC is
iFusion....uhm...GlQuakeWOS runs as well as on the CPPC, WipeOut, PaybackPPC,
QuakeWOS, Heretic II, Shogo too...hey! Am I missing something here? :)
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 192 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 01-Nov-2001 16:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 184 (Alan Watson):
>>And yet an A1 requires an a1200. Contradictio in terminis. Don't tell me that >>A3k/A4k PPC boards are so much better. Is an A1 really that much better than >>an a1200+pcc or a4k/a3k6+ppc?
>It will be.Faster processor,faster gfx bus,proper caches.Sort of like comparing an 020+AGA to an 060+G-Rex/Mediator+Voodoo 3(at least)
Does that mean it's not perfectly capable of running OS4 and Applications?
>>Because his current setup is not really outdated compared to the a1 and he >>prolly has spent alot of money on it. The A1 won't be cheap either.
>What Amiga hardware is???
That's no excuse.
>>Tell that to AInc/Eyetech, they are using the a1200 as a dongle.
>For compatability reasons I expect.Some people will still want to use apps that bang the A1200's chipset directly.Until something similar is available that's RTG based(be it audio or gfx)then at least you can still use it on the A1.
No, it's not a technical issue, as it won't be needed in OS4.2. It's not a major technical difficulty to It's just a strategical move to kill Pegasos as a possible platform to run OS4 on.
It's much more sensible to use UAE for games and other hardware-banging software when you have beasts like G3's, it even allows you to multitask and run the game in a window. A semi-transparent UAE for apps (the few that really need custom chips) would be even better.
>If they hadn't kept AGA compatability you'd have had some people complaining about it.Since they have kept it,you have people complaining that they've done this.They can't win.We should be glad that at least they are doing something.
People will always be complaining. But as I said above, UAE is perfectly capable of handling that software. Also, the a1200 connection logic makes the A1 even more expensive.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 193 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 01-Nov-2001 16:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (Loriano):
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it's time we started to move away from the A1200 and A4000 MBs. Sure, it's nice that that they are porting OS4.0 for A3000/A4000s with a PPC card, however, I would not want to invest too much more on a motherboard that is almost 11 years old. What if it decides to blow a chip?
I have no idea why Amiga Inc isn't porting OS4.0 to the A1200BPPC. It could be political, technical or perhaps they just don't have the resources. All I'm saying is that we really shouldn't be focusing on that. It's good to have these old Amigas for nostalgia sake, but we really need to have next generation machines on our desktop and the "classics" under our bed or in our closet. That's how I see it.
And btw, it's an A4000/040 with all the ZORRO slots full. I used to have an A1200 but thought it was easier and cheaper to expand a big box Amiga. Shortly after I "upgraded" tons of expansion cards came out for the A1200, including the BPPC and BVision. Oh well, that's life I guess.
- Mike
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 194 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Alan Watson on 01-Nov-2001 16:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 192 (Brecht [darklite]):
>>Does that mean it's not perfectly capable of running OS4 and Applications?
What do you mean?The Bppc?I guess they have their reasons for this.If I owned a Bppc I'd be well unhappy at this:-/
>>That's no excuse.
It's not an excuse.It's a fact I'm afraid.And always will be until the user base starts to grow again instead of shrinking.
>No, it's not a technical issue, as it won't be needed in OS4.2. It's not a >major technical difficulty to It's just a strategical move to kill Pegasos as >a possible platform to run OS4 on.
Mabey,but what company trying to make a profit doesn't make `strategic moves`?
You can't really blame them for this.You buy an A1,you run OS4+,you but Pegasos,you run MorphOS.Simple choice I suppose.I can see some people not being happy about this,but it doesn't bother me personally.
>It's much more sensible to use UAE for games and other hardware-banging >software when you have beasts like G3's, it even allows you to multitask and >run the game in a window. A semi-transparent UAE for apps (the few that really >need custom chips) would be even better.
I've never used UAE,so I don't know how well it works at emulating AGA.
>People will always be complaining. But as I said above, UAE is perfectly >capable of handling that software. Also, the a1200 connection logic makes the >A1 even more expensive.
Can't argue with the more expensive bit.The only choice there is to wait for the standalone A1 plus OS4.2 I suppose.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 195 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 16:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 193 (Mike Veroukis):
>I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it's time we started to move
away from the A1200 and A4000 MBs.
I agree on that. :)
>Sure, it's nice that that they are porting
OS4.0 for A3000/A4000s with a PPC card, however, I would not want to invest
too much more on a motherboard that is almost 11 years old. What if it decides
to blow a chip?
Well that is with everything really. When we bought the BPPC 3-4 years ago it
was the same story; what if it decides to blow up a chip? It was true then, it
is true now, it depends how long you want to stick with your miggy and how
far you want to go. If people are scared about chips blowing in mobos, well they
shouldn't buy mediators, g-rexs, prometheus and so on. I wouldn't use it as
an excuse.
About the new motherboards, yes I am with you totally. I couldnt care less if
its a pc mobo or an amiga mobo as long as it is easy to upgrade, that allows
standards hardware to be added and that is able to run at least the Amiga OS 3.9.
>I have no idea why Amiga Inc isn't porting OS4.0 to the A1200BPPC.
Neither do I but since they said, right at the beginning that the OS 4 wouldnt
run on Classic Amigas, and now all of a sudden, runs on CPPC but not on BPPC, please let me be
a bit peed off about it, can I? :)
>We really need to have next generation machines on our desktop and
the "classics" under our bed or in our closet. That's how I see it.
I see it this way: if they decide to port OS4 for CPPC they should do it for BPPC
as well. This will give people that have spent so much on these machines at
least the illusion of a slightly longer lifespan. And not to worry, I, like others
will buy the A1 and keep it connected to my actual machine. What a double! :)
>And btw, it's an A4000/040 with all the ZORRO slots full. I used to have
an A1200 but thought it was easier and cheaper to expand a big box Amiga.
See? you haven't got the PPC so the move from an 040 to an A1 isn't painful or even
buying a CBPPC to run OS4. Us on the contrary will have to chuck the BPPC 266mhz
with 060 60Mhz Fast SCSI2 and the 128Mb of ram on it (guess how much are the
simms alone?) and get 1) an A1 or 2) a Zorro3 add-on with a CPPC.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 196 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 17:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 194 (Alan Watson):
>What do you mean?The Bppc?I guess they have their reasons for this.
If I owned a Bppc I'd be well unhappy at this:-/
Thanks :)
Let's not forget that if the miga still exists it is because of the Amiga 1200
and its userbase. No way it would still be around just with the 4000s.
So thanks :)
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 197 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Alan Watson on 01-Nov-2001 17:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 195 (Loriano):
>See? you haven't got the PPC so the move from an 040 to an A1 isn't painful or >even
>buying a CBPPC to run OS4. Us on the contrary will have to chuck the BPPC 266mhz
>with 060 60Mhz Fast SCSI2 and the 128Mb of ram on it (guess how much are the
>simms alone?) and get 1) an A1 or 2) a Zorro3 add-on with a CPPC.
You'd need a large bank loan for that:)Can CPPC's still be bought?Never mind Z3 busboards for the A1200.Another option would be a Mediator+SharkPPC+(when it arrives).The one positive side would be the expected large performance increase over the BPPC/CPPC.Having a cpu cache,at least twice the processor clock and not having any ugly context switches to worry about should make quite a difference.
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 198 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Loriano on 01-Nov-2001 17:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 197 (Alan Watson):
>You'd need a large bank loan for that:)
LOL! you are so right.
>Can CPPC's still be bought?Never mind Z3 busboards for the A1200.
Another option would be a Mediator+SharkPPC+(when it arrives).
The one positive side would be the expected large performance increase
over the BPPC/CPPC.Having a cpu cache,at least twice the processor
clock and not having any ugly context switches to worry about should make
quite a difference.
I don't know if you can still buy the CPPC, but I am sure that Power Computing
still advertise them so....
It's just a shame that we (BPPC) haven't been considered after all who kept
the market alive?
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 199 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 01-Nov-2001 18:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 198 (Loriano):
Here's a question....
I know there were way more A1200s sold then A4000s. However, I wonder how many A1200s were upgraded to PPC machines compared to A4000s with PPCs. I'm just wondering if there are more A4000s with a PPC out there that are still in use.
From what I can tell, there might be a number of reasons why they won't release OS4.0 for the A1200BPPC. 1) Technical issues with the BPPC itself 2) Competition with the AmigaOne 3) Possibly not that many A1200BPPC still in use compared to the number of A4000s out there with suppirior PPC cards. 4) They will release it at some point but they just haven't announced it yet (possible, but unlikely).
That's just a guess, there might be more reasons.
- Mike
AmigaONE to be released next year : Comment 200 of 204ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 02-Nov-2001 01:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 197 (Alan Watson):
>The one positive side would be the expected large performance increase over
>the BPPC/CPPC.Having a cpu cache [...] should make quite a difference.
>
You say BPPC/CPPC had no CPU cache? Well, it has normal 1st level cache and
with regard to 2nd level cache...it would not have made that big a difference
with the inline cache architecture of early PPC. Only with the G3 and its fast
backside cache an implemetation begins to shine.
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