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[Forum] Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga IncANN.lu
Posted on 04-Nov-2001 05:00 GMT by Adam Cheesegrate147 comments
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On the 'fleecy comments on morphos' thread Ralph responds to the following
questions about the frequently mentioned
unsigned contract with Amiga Inc
-Did the morphos team revise the contract proposal
and fax it back to fleecy?
-What was the response from amiga inc?
- did the morphos team treat amiga inc with some respect?

1. It contained unacceptable paragraphs.
These paragraphs would have led to devide the licence sums to
almost nothing depending on a short amount of "amigaos" releases
which Amiga Inc. *decided*. That would have meant a complete
loss of "control" about the sources and its wealth.
They would have also meant that Amiga Inc. could control bplan's
product release...by not releasing anything at time..demanding
"extra special hw support licences" and so on.
To make it simple..the contract was an unprofessional joke.
2. The previous agreed sum between me and fleecy were "cutted" by 80%
in the "final" contract.
Fine if they wanna play sandbox games they can choose other
people...the 5 months wasted on communication with Fleecy Moss
were enough.
3. The contract came after about 8 weeks "delay" and only because i
gave fleecy a deadline from that day we will concentrate on our
own business to get the job done.
This means we can't wait and wait for a "deal" while we actually
need to port other modules to get a product done.
Therefore i set a deadline..and since then we port the remaining
important AROS and own technology which is needed.
Otherwise we would still wait until judgement day while real
work could be done.
4. The contract was written by B. Hermans which makes the contract
invalid automaticly for this break of trust.
I heard this some time afterwards through several sources.
That`s like letting Mr. Haage writing our contracts with Amiga.
An absolute *inacceptable* issue.
5. We saw that Amiga Inc. was not able to do any project management.
o As i`ve said before..Hyperion didn`t want to support MorphOS
as AmigaOS when Fleecy told them so.
Conclusion fleecy had no control about them.
o Absolutely *nothing* happened for 4.0 development *besides*
Olaf Barthels doing TCP/IP and FFS development for *him*.
o Absolutely *no* time plans..nothing...no real work responsibilities.
Though asking about these issues i've *never* got a sufficient
answer.
o Amiga Inc. has no access to the OS 3.5/3.9 sources and though
i asked fleecy *several* times about this i never got a sufficient
answer. But planning for a new OS release the knowledge on what
you can base your work on is *crucial*.
It was also common agreement between Olaf Barthels and us that
the WB needs a *major* overhaul and that it would be best to
base it on some previous 3.5 work..asl/amigaguide/icon..stuff
which has some worth. But as Amiga Inc. is locked about these
sources they would only have 3.1 (rom and wb) left.
As we're quite close to a complete rom replacement and the
wb needs a complete rewrite anyway there was nothing left
they could offer besides the name.
o Though after several tries to discuss the RTG problem with
Fleecy Moss his standard answer was...you`re not in the gfx team,
you may be allowed to give some suggestions but that`s it.
While we knew that *nothing* really went on about "their"
fantasy gfx team P96 which didn`t even know in april what
they should do at all. Maybe the Friedens did some 3d work..so
be it..but that is *NOT* what i understand as RTG.
But as a graphics.library replacement is a *MUST HAVE* option
to even get a non amiga hw up we did our own graphics.library
replacement with cybergraphx. It would have been unacceptable
to "wait" for fleecy's fantasy team to get a graphics.library
replacement working while we wait 6-12 months until we can
get the pegasos working.
o Amiga Inc. *USA* was informed that the AmigaOne hw won`t come
in time(if ever) and that there's no real 4.0 work at
H&P by some Amiga Inc. employee which came to the IFA in
germany end august and found an obvious project GAU.
(Note..the AmigaOS project manager Fleecy Moss has obviously
never ever *checked* the project`s progress though i`ve
warned him several times about certain issue...he never
listened)
But while all this has happened i still get an email from
Fleecy Moss where he asked me where the problem is in
these special clauses....
This contract had some paragraph like...
"You must support the 4.0 VM API" while *everybody* involved
knew there *is* no 4.0. So how can we support an API for an
not existing product ? Nuts..
To me this was another sign that the guy somehow lives in
a fantasy world..argueing with fantasy work groups.
BTW..also for my friends at Hyperion..at that time we already
had our own VM we only added for your "future" games.
-> conclusion..it`s *impossible* that amiga inc. could organize
any amigaos development and that this development would be
ready for our HW. Then we decided to continue on our own
with our partners and focus on our own product.
6. Early September Olaf Barthel(in the name of Amiga Inc.) saw the
Pegasos running here in an early beta and we discussed the whole
situation with him and told him our opinion of the situation.
He mostly agreed about the project management issue and that
*nobody* is even close to our state.
He also thinks that the whole situation is just plain ridiculous.
He informed Amiga Inc. *USA* about it and our opinions of the
situation but we haven't heard anything about them until sometime
mid October. Then it was clear that B. Hermans talked Fleecy into
that he is able to fix his AmigaOS PPC "problem" to safe both
people's faces. Now it`s only a farce...
A lot things have already been said...some may be new to you but
this should be enough for now and at least clear up a lot of issues
concerning our decision. And before the name believes attack me
again, better read this *twice*.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 1 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by HammerD on 04-Nov-2001 06:34 GMT
Proof is in the pudding I'm Afraid.
What has Amiga Inc. shown us with regards to OS 4.0? Nothing. I'm afraid to say it but MONTHS and MONTHS have gone by and nothing. Eyetech have done their best to "save face" but really, they can't do it all.
"We have developers working on OS 4". WHO? Name names?
AmigaONE hardware has NEVER BEEN SEEN IN WORKING FORM!!! If you can tell me otherwise PROVE IT!
Pegasos hardware has been booting since LAST SPRING and MorphOS .8 has been SHOWN WORKING ON REAL HARDWARE. AmigaOne/Amiga OS4 is not even CLOSE!. I'm sorry to say it, I have NOTHING against Eyetech, who have obviously tried their best in a draconian climate....
So, "Show me the OS" Amiga Inc/Hyperion! I'm waiting for it...
(PS for now I'll use my Amithlon - and why in the WORLD did not Amiga Inc. publish this????) Geez. And when Pegasos comes out I'm going to definately look at it....AmigaOne? The first mistake was strapping that A1200 to the side. Sorry. But Emulation was the way to go.
HammerD
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 2 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 04-Nov-2001 06:49 GMT
'Show Me The Miggy!'? ;)
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 3 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 04-Nov-2001 07:08 GMT
Well, that post is so full of inaccuracies and nonsense that I don't even know where to start.
Apparently Ralph was also under the impression he received a "contract".
That was not a contract Ralph, at best a letter of intent. Why do you think it's header is "memorandum of understanding"?
And I had nothing to do with drafting it.
Absolutely nothing.
Did I review it? Yes.
But that's where it ends.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 4 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 04-Nov-2001 08:12 GMT
Hi
Why don`t you (All developers) come together in Cologne and discuss things
face to face for the last time?
Please give peace a last chance...I guess every Amiga company left in the
scene will attend Cologne show
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 5 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 04-Nov-2001 08:34 GMT
There is an astounding lack of professionalism here.
Just release what products you have when/if they are ready, cut the bull, cut the bitching,
cut the PR war and let the consumers make an informed choice.
I am currently fighting the feeling "a plague on both your houses" and Im sure
Im not the only one.
Dave.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 6 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 04-Nov-2001 09:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (HammerD):
No, that was a good idea. I know it is inelegant, but it solves the
compatability problem in the only way currently possible (since the
BoXeR technology wasn't completed).
Emulation won't give you access to Amiga floppy disks, nor the ability
to use an Amiga keyboard. Nor is there any integrated emulation of AGA
available - running UAE as a separate program is not the same. (How
would you do an ARexx script to pass control from a program running
under UAE to one running on the main OS?)
In the long run I would like to see AGA emulation built into the new
OSes, and a PCI Catweasel. But we don't have them yet, nor genuine
Amiga keyboards for USB.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 7 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 04-Nov-2001 09:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Dave):
It's "Reality Internet".
When Amiga folk stop arguing, the platform will really be dead. The
fights show that they care.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 8 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by George Kaliviotis (StormLord) on 04-Nov-2001 09:21 GMT
Its the first time I belive ralph not because I don't respect him, I respecting him because is ome of a hell programer and its still on amiga like project.
Though in previews statements and descasions I belived that he is very arrogand , very motioned and has no clue of marketing.
This hole situation used to get drive me and my friends NUTS.
*BUT* from the latest post of Mr Smidht this situation started to show up.
I belive that and agreement WILL come anytime from both parts , but I also belive that time is against Amiga Inc..
I told my friends last spring that If AmigaOne and OS4.0 don't be released by december It won't at all.
They laughed at me. It was a race between 2 sides for the same result. The end its coming, and we just waiting to see the winner.
Whatever the winner is I belive the other side WILL make an agreement because all sides invested too much money, efforts and time, and noone wants to be lost.
As for hyperion guys, they seem to me TRUE amigans like MOST of the community they are hard working and REAL coders.
The hole situation came too far but we will have a result soon.
Another thing I must point is that I trust german people both sides because they kept the comunity alive.
If we hadn't have smidht, carda, keller, mariak, friedens, and many others I forgot or don't know the hole situations would be more different, and belive me it would be worst.
The world has saw us that small business fall, understand this and for your OWN sake make an good agreement for both sides otherwise this business is dead before it begun.
History give lessons.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 9 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 04-Nov-2001 09:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Don Cox):
I remember when people said that when virus programs stopped being
released for the Amiga it would truly be a dead platform.
Its not the arguing that is bothering me, it is WHO is doing the
arguing. If it was just joe public moaning then fair enough, its not
though is it.
Imagine what would happen if IBM executives were arguing with BEA
executives to this depth in public? Sure they issue press releases
bitching about each others *released* products and there are
underhanded sales tactics going on - thats just business but what we
are seeing here is unprecendented. No, thats wrong, the last time we
saw something this unpleasant was WarpOS vs PowerUP. Same opponents (
almost ) must be something in the personalities ;)
Dave.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 10 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 04-Nov-2001 09:59 GMT
So H&P owns the rights of the OS3.5 parts, then it's nice to know that they signed the contract in WOA2001 SE...
Don't worry Ralph, OS4.0 *WILL* come, so will AmigaONE BTW, we got a nice saying in holland: Hardlopers zijn doodlopers.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 11 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 04-Nov-2001 10:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Don Cox):
>Emulation won't give you access to Amiga floppy disks, nor the ability
to use an Amiga keyboard.
Why wouldn't that be possible? Amithlon shows that the keyboard & mouse emulation is possible. And there are various DIY hardware hacks that make it possible to read Amiga disks with a PC floppy controller (you only need to connect one parport pin with your floppy drive for example), that would be easy to implement.
>Nor is there any integrated emulation of AGA
available - running UAE as a separate program is not the same. (How
would you do an ARexx script to pass control from a program running
under UAE to one running on the main OS?)
What apps that only run on ECS/AGA screenmodes with an ARexx port are worth mentioning?
>In the long run I would like to see AGA emulation built into the new
OSes, and a PCI Catweasel. But we don't have them yet, nor genuine
Amiga keyboards for USB.
IMHO we need to drop custom chips once and for all. Custom chips were great in the eighties, but now they're only slowing you down. The main reason Amiga's are technically behind the PC are the custom chips. It's expensive to make it cooperate it with PCI busses and are basically useless these days.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 12 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 04-Nov-2001 10:06 GMT
To Ralph:
Would you still consider signing a *decent* contract?
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 13 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Mart on 04-Nov-2001 10:13 GMT
I'm realy realy REALY SICK of all this !!
Amiga Inc and Morph-guys put aside your pride and arogance and GET TOGETHER to try, no not to try but to WORK things out !
The only thing you are good at together right now is bitching at each other and killing us all !
It's obvious the Hyperion can't support 'Morph' because they only have contracts witch alow them to do only 'AMIGA-OS' ports (and 'Mac' I believe) but can't you sign NEW contracts that will alow you to do also 'Morph' ports ?
I know that it will cost you more, but doing nothing will cost us ALL ! And I believe that 'Morph' will get a BIG portion of the (left over) users so money will be pouring back IN ! Right ?
Come on guys, this is leading no-where ! Help each other out here and support as many option as possible !
Give a little and you will get a little ! Don't you understand ?
Even the IRA realised that when they would turn in there weapons, ther would be a bigger change of peace in Ireland ! (NO I don't want to start a political discussion overhere !!)
Hope I made my point....
Martin
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 14 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 04-Nov-2001 10:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Mart):
Martin
You made your point but I dont think they need to work together, I dont mind have
a plan C in MorphOS. I just want all sides to just shut up and get on with it, I dont
think from the attitudes we have seen so far, that they could work profitably together
it would just slow things down.
When you have conflicting agendas it is much more sensible to say "you go your way
and Ill go mine, if we meet up later on then so be it."
Dave.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 15 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 04-Nov-2001 10:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
hello ben
>Well, that post is so full of inaccuracies and nonsense that I don't even know >where to start.
can u elaborate on that please? what is nonsense?
- fleecy project management skills
- h@p not giving amiga access to 3.5/3.9 source
- olaf statements
>That was not a contract Ralph, at best a letter of intent. Why do you think >it's header is "memorandum of understanding"?
well anything that is sopoused to be signed is a contract. contract or not these
were the terms amiga wanted and considering the work morph has done, in contrast to amiga inc they don't seem very fair.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 16 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Klauke on 04-Nov-2001 11:17 GMT
It seems to boil down to the very first point of Ralphs' post:
> 1. It contained unacceptable paragraphs.
Hmm, don't claim sth to be unacceptable if you would have done/do it the very
same way. Explanation follows.
> These paragraphs would have led to devide the licence sums to
> almost nothing
Divided between everyone who is part of the 'AmigaOS developement'. How can
this be wrong? Did you expect to be the only one to receive any money for
your work from AmigaInc.?
And then there is the question 'How much many is AmigaInc. able to spend for
AmigaOS4 developement?'.
There must be a reason why they concentrated on AmigaDE development and stopped
funding AmigaOS development for some time. As you see, developers are starting
to earn money from the DE so is AmigaInc. wrong in first making this possible?
When there is no money for funding AmigaOS development there is nothing to
divide.
> depending on a short amount of "amigaos" releases
> which Amiga Inc. *decided*.
Who decides MorphOS releases? Has anyone but you and your MorphOS-developer
mates a say on what is a MorphOS release? No? See the point? :)
> That would have meant a complete
> loss of "control" about the sources and its wealth.
See above. MorphOS is controlled by the 'MorphOS development group'. Maybe its
a democratic process between all the people involved in MorphOS development,
maybe you personally have the final word. Fine. Wasn't it _you_ who stated
recently that OS development should be controlled at _one single instance_?
And yes, you're right.
You and your team are the ones who decide what 'MorphOS' is. I never will
critize you for this, it's off of every discussion, its a matter of fact and
that's alright. I would not want to have it anything different.
And AmigaInc. decide where 'AmigaOS' is heading. If they decide to throw AmigaOS
in the bin.. No, I do not think they will. ;-) There will be AmigaOS4.0 and
further. (We'll see it when its ready. Same goes for MorphOS1.0)
There is really only one possiblity that _you_ have anything to say 'bout
'AmigaOS' development. You know what..? Yeah, _work at AmigaInc._
Quite obvious, isn't it? :) But this would be the _only_ way for you not to lose
control over your sources if they would be part of AmigaOS.
You will never work at AmigaInc., that much seems clear. But then, you cannot
tell AmigaInc. at any time how they shall handle AmigaOS-development.
And they won't tell you how to do MorphOS.. ;-)
AmigaInc. has just (half a year ago) started controlling further AmigaOS
development. And they laid out a clear path for getting the OS development
back into the company. Right now they do not have all the resources they need
for doing so, so 4.0 development has mostly been outsourced.
But as they took the control AmigaInc. alone have the final decision on what
is part of AmigaOS. Nothing different from the MorphOS side.
> They would have also meant that Amiga Inc. could control bplan's
> product release...by not releasing anything at time..
If everything is based on clean business agreements and there is a proper basis
of mutual trust, why should they not release AmigaOS for Pegasos in time?
OTOH if everything AmigaInc. gets is 'This is a joke'-like statements I can
pretty much understand their unwillingness to work with those parties.
> demanding
> "extra special hw support licences" and so on.
You mean for calling Pegasos 'certified AmigaOne HW'? Well, certification
processes cost money as it is not only about pushing an 'AmigaOne' bumper
sticker on a tower case (or a MoBo). AmigaInc. customers want to/can be sure that
AmigaOS runs on the HW they buy as 'AmigaOne'. Just as bPlan customers can be
sure that MorphOS will run on Pegasos. But AmigaInc. doesn't do HW so they have
to choose other ways to guarantee HW-compatability for AmigaOS.
> To make it simple..the contract was an unprofessional joke.
How is calling someones 'letter of intent' or 'contract proposal' or whatever
you call it, an 'unprofessional joke' professional in itself? Don't throw
stones from within your glasshouse.
Ciao, Alex
ps: No offense meant at any time of this post. It's just me trying to find the
most objective POV for myself. Other opinions may and will differ, this is just
mine. ;-)
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 17 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Frederik Yssing on 04-Nov-2001 11:40 GMT
Screw backwards compatibilty...
My a400 with PPC and CybVision PPC was not able to run AGA/ECS games and demos.. so what ??
If I buy a new computer, it is because I want to run new programs or new games.
Not games from 92...
Any as far as I know, all the programs I used to use on my miggy 4k was RTG and so was games I played... And... guess what, they will run fine under MorphOS, and the others.. screw them....
Any way, BPlan and MorphOS delivers... no one else has for many years now..
So IMHO MorphOS and BPlan is the way to go now..
Way to go Ralph... I will be supporting you...
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 18 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Roccati on 04-Nov-2001 11:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Don Cox):
> ..OSes, and a PCI Catweasel.
A PCI catweasel would be an absurd overkill.
It is perfectly feasible to build a USB catweasel costing less than
100 euro: keep in mind that most of the job in the catweasel hardware
is done in software...
> But we don't have them yet, nor genuine Amiga keyboards for USB.
Cherry and many other taiwanese keyboard and moose producers are
perfectly willing to build any slightly custom keyboard even for a
very small run (1000 pieces) and it wouldn't even cost any more than a
completely standard pc keyboard... Too bad eyetech was too busy
feeding people with crap about a 500 euro tower case...
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 19 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 04-Nov-2001 11:53 GMT
I think the chances for cooperation is very low. I don't think the
involved parties have a common basis for agreement.
Here's how I see the positions of the different players. I don't
claim to have full inside info so I'm willing to stand corrected.
1. Amiga Inc
AInc are interested in going "big". Since traditional Amiga stuff
doesn't smell "big", they have focused on their Tao/AmigaDE stuff.
However, so far this hasn't made them any money, and for this reason
they are willing to take part in some "small" stuff to keep them
funded. They did this with OS3.5 and 3.9, but these deals meant that
AInc gave up control over the new parts of the releases, which has now
made things more difficult for them, and this in turn means they are
less willing to do the same thing again.
So in short: AInc are willing to do some 4.0/PPC/classic stuff to get
money, but they are not willing to invest any money, they are not
willing (or able?) to put much time into the project, and they want to
retain full control over the results.
2. H&P
H&P made a deal with AInc for 3.5 and 3.9, but they were never really
happy about the conditions for this cooperation. Now that the terms
got even less favourable for 4.0, they didn't accept. Probably they
used their control over the 3.5/3.9 additions in order to get a better
deal, but in the end it wasn't acceptable for them.
3. bPlan
Bplan want to sell their PPC machine. To do this, they need software,
and they'd prefer official recognition from AInc. Failing this, they
at least want a wide public support.
4. MorphOS team
The MorphOS team wants to fulfil their vision, a new OS. Then they
want to get a sufficient userbase that the OS can survive. They are
not very interested in "the name", but rather in getting users and
developers on board. They'd also like to get some money for their
development, and since it's much easier to sell hardware than it is to
sell software, they've partnered with bPlan.
Since the MOS team feel they would have contributed a major part of
the 4.0 project, they feel they should received considerable influence
over the decisions made. Since their primary goal is to fulfil a
vision, they are not willing to give up control over their project, at
least not unless they feel they can completely trust the ones taking
over control.
5. Eyetech
Eyetech wants to sell their A1. To do this, they need software, and
they have determined that they need official backing too. When AInc
proved unwilling/unable to produce what they needed, they invested
considerable effort to get the project going.
6. Ben Hermans/Hyperion (not sure how to differentiate this really)
When AInc proved unwilling/unable to provide the project coordination
necessary for 4.0, Hermans stepped in. Since he has successfully lead
some other projects, he feels he's the right person for the job.
Hermans doesn't trust the MorphOS team and is unwilling to share any
decision power with them.
So, in the end I see the following "unsolvable problems": AInc are not
willing to share control with MorphOS, and MorphOS are not willing to
give AInc total control, at least not unless AInc find a project
manager that the MOS people trust. Hermans doesn't trust MOS and the
reverse is likely to be true as well. A cooperation AInc/MOS with
Hermans as project coordinator is impossible, and a cooperation
AInc/MOS with another coordinator is only possible if AInc is willing
to give MOS some influence, and if MOS/AInc can agree on a coordinator
that both parties trust 100%. This isn't going to happen since AInc
are unwilling to look on MOS as anything more than a subcontractor,
and since MOS isn't willing to be just a subcontractor there will not
be a cooperation.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 20 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by StormLord on 04-Nov-2001 12:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Alex Klauke):
I belive you missed something..
you say that Ainc is controling the project fair enough.
There is one little argument here. And a question also.
How Ainc let H&P to have control over sources for 3.5 and 3.9 and DON"T give this also for for all the partners they work or willing to work ?
I will go for the "official way" but not because its better (we have to see it that) but because the word "Amiga" had and I belive will have some impact on the rest of the world, so I give Ainc a better chance to revive this platform from sleeping...
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 21 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Fabian Jimenez on 04-Nov-2001 12:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Sinan Gurkan):
Hmm... what this tells me that there is not much chance for either product to truly succeed. Why? Because all these small players (on both sides) need each other to bring a decent new Amiga to market (be it AOne or Pegasos). However, they are so concerned with their own agendas that they are willing to screw the other person over. H&P/Hyperion hate bPlan, etc, it's all stupid.
So in the end, maybe both AOne and Pegasos will come to market, at 1,000 units each. So potentially 2,000 new machines wont even cut it in bringing back the market. Well done guys.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 22 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 04-Nov-2001 12:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Johan Rönnblom):
@johann
In general i agree about your observation but there`s a missinformation
I`m part of BPlan since its foundation..the PPC CHRP concept was our
common idea for MorphOS, Linux and industrial embedded usage.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 23 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 04-Nov-2001 12:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Johan Rönnblom):
6. Ben Hermans/Hyperion (not sure how to differentiate this really)
>When AInc proved unwilling/unable to provide the project coordination
>necessary for 4.0, Hermans stepped in. Since he has successfully lead
>some other projects, he feels he's the right person for the job.
I certainly don't plan to do this alone. It's simply that I have tremendous faith in the abilities of the Hyperion coders and the rest of the highly skilled OS 4.0 team.
It has to be realised that Amiga doesn't have anyone as familiar with the shortcomings of the current OS and the dual CPU architecture than the Hyperion coders who struggle with these limitations every day when they bring demanding games like Shogo, Heretic 2 and Freespace to the Amiga.
We know what the problems are and how to fix them.
>Hermans doesn't trust the MorphOS team and is unwilling to share any
>decision power with them.
This isn't a question of trust but rather a difference of opinion about two fundamental issues:
1) In my opinion a a lawyer, MorphOS violates the intellectual property of Amiga Inc for which they paid 4.5 million dollar. It's a well known fact that the MorphOS people are using the OS 3.1 source-code.
This would be okay provided bPlan gets the blessing from Amiga and licenses the intellectual property or otherwise becomes the officially sanctioned OS release.
The fact that Amiga has paid for and owns the IP also entails that Amiga and Amiga alone can decide what to do with it and what parts they want to be developed by whomever.
If Fleecy wants the P96 authors to do the RTG system and Ralph objects and wants to push Cybergraphix, at the end of the day, Fleecy should decide because his company owns the IP.
If that's considered an unacceptable condition by the MorphOS people (and it was!), they should have acquired Amiga themselves from Gateway.
2) Any arrangement whereby both hardware and software come from the same source (=bPlan) is unworkable because other hardware vendors (Eyetech, Elbox, Matay) will not receive the same software support as bPlan and are hence placed at a disadvantage.
There is a clear conflict of interest because members of the MorphOS team have a financial stake in a competing hardware producer.
The only way to get around that problem is a strict contract and a separate legal entity.
None of this was acceptable to the MorphOS team.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 24 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 04-Nov-2001 12:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Johan Rönnblom):
I mostly agree with you observations, but do have some other views on some of them.
I don't think that Amiga Inc. are into OS4/PPC for the money. The community is to small to really support development of OS4. Past comments on OS3.5/3.9 sales should show that. OS4 is more a project to keep the community alive, a community Amiga Inc. needs for their OS5 plans.
Amiga's role in this is that they want to be in charge. Past experience with H&P have shown how vulnerable you can become when some part of the OS is locked in by a 3rd party.
MorphOS on the other hand isn't inclined to give up control of their OS. RS seems to be the type who must be in charge and calling the shots.
Now, the real trouble is that the community is to small to even support one OS-development, let alone two.
RS knows that, it's not enough he persuades 50% of the community to switch to MorphOS on it's technical merrits alone. No, he need to convince the rest that Amiga Inc. and their solution sucketh. Exactly this kind of public lobbying, slandering, "PR" and FUD is what annoys me.
And to make matters worse the involved parties (RS, Haage, Hyperion) shares some really really bad blood and wouldn't flinch a second to stab a knife into their opponents backs.
Back to Amiga Inc., their choices seems really limited. The don't have enough finance to do the job inhouse, which would have been the best solution as it would steer them away from all the infights in the community. So they can try to get the involved parties to cooperate, but it would be easier to get pigs to fly. Then they could hand over control to RS (or H&P) and wave bye bye to a large investment and possible face criminal charges. Or they could do what they have chosen to do know, contract the work to smaller parties. And thus leaving RS out in the cold.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 25 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 04-Nov-2001 12:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Mekanix):
> RS knows that, it's not enough he
> persuades 500f the community
that should be 50 percent... guess ann doesn't allow the percentsign.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 26 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 04-Nov-2001 12:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
@ben hermans,
thank u for ure post. it is good to see well reasoned
arguement from both sides.
As for your claims for legality, are you speculating or have there
been proven similar cases in law? I thought it was legal for technology
to be 're-engineered'.
While i'm sure your coders are great that dosn't change the fact that
a split at this stage of life in the amiga community will be fatal.
i think it's time that the amiga community started pressuring YOU and RALPH to
do a deal.. or else....
:)
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 27 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 04-Nov-2001 13:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (adam ceremuga):
> I thought it was legal for technology
> to be 're-engineered'.
Read Bens comment again. Once you peep into the sourcecode you loose all rights to reverse-engineering.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 28 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gürkan on 04-Nov-2001 13:02 GMT
We are all aware of the damage that WarpUP / PowerUP war has done to Amiga scene...Many people didn't want to buy a PPC board because of the confusion..
We waited at least 3 years for decent PPC software...
In this world of MacOS & Windows, AmigaOS and MorphOS team and their hardware designers doesn't have a chance if they don't unite..
Without AmigaOS, Pegasos will probably be a Macintosh clone that runs Linux/PPC and maybe MacOS with MacOnLinux and QNX 6.x PPC maybe...Now MorphOS team is working on a new OpenGL API...Why re-invent the wheel when we have tried and tested Warp3d API (or Ami3D) ?
Without BPlan's hardware & MorphOS team's hardware-independant OS work, AmigaOS will be just a interesting OS that runs only its own custom hardware (which will be recognized as a turbo board for A1200 by the public...-I know that AmigaOne will work a standalone-...First impressions are always important. How can you sell AmigaOne to masses if it requires A1200 and special tower cases ?)
With the development that was already done by MorphOS Team, AmigaOne can be sold as a stand alone when it is ready...
Don't you see that all parties will benefit from unity ?
Together we stand, divided we fall...
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 29 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Dagon HELLAS :-) on 04-Nov-2001 13:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Johan Rönnblom):
I believe that there is still chance that they cooperate.
They should try to find a contract that satisfies both sides.
We should make a poll here in ANN to see what Amigans think about it.
- Do you thing that Amiga Inc. & MorphOS team should cooperate?
o. Yes, we need ONE operating system and since MorphOS is quite ready, it
should be the new AmigaOS
o. No, I prefer waiting for the AmigaOS 4.0 released from some other team
o. No, I don't like the idea.
something like that.
as I said in one of my previous postings there is a way so that can
everybody be happy.
- Amiga Inc. should allow MorphOS to be the new AmigaOS (that way they win
time, and time is money :-)
- MorphOS should port their OS on the eyetech's AmigaOne system. (Also
Eyetech wins time with this)
- Hyperion does what knows best doing, develop 3D drivers and games for the
new AmigaOS.
- H&P does a C/C++ compiler and port all their programms to the new AmigaOS
- MorphOS wins the AmigaOS name which Amigans love.
I should also point that AmigaOne and Pegasus should point to two different
consumer markets.
One should be the low-cost and the other the high-cost Amiga.
We 'll have one OS and two Amiga hardware choices.
I'm sure that Amigans will understand and very happy both Amiga Inc. and
MorphOS if they cooperate even after all these thing have been told.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 30 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 04-Nov-2001 13:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Dagon HELLAS :-)):
I think a poll would just move the argument to yet another thread ( which was the
purpose of posting Ralphs "response" doc as a new topic ).
The whole "PR" war is being perpetrated in an incredibly juvenile fashion. So called
BAF and BMF are posting stupid things, deliberately misinterpreting things, spoofing
as other people to lend weight to their own points and I see little sign that the overwheling
majority really knows what its talking about.
Deploying tactics from alt.flame on here does little more than make those that indulge
look like children.
A for the days of cucug.org/aminews.html
Dave.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 31 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Dagon on 04-Nov-2001 13:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Sinan Gürkan):
>Don't you see that all parties will benefit from unity ?
the 99% of Amigans see it, some like mechanix don't, please stop flaming and propose some solution.
If you don't like Ralph that's okay, we don't care.
Together we stand, divided we fall...
Iced Earth? :o)
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 32 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 04-Nov-2001 13:23 GMT
This whole situation is very bad.
No offense to Eyetech, but if they don't have a working prototype now, I cannot see it being released until 2003.
No offense to Amiga/Hyperion/H&P etc but if nearly 0code has been written for OS4.0, even a release for current PPC boards will be at least 8 months away, probably longer.
No offense to RS(did I say that?). He may have a near finished product, but without Amiga's blessing I don't see how he can ever sell his product.
So where does that leave me as an end customer? It certainly looks like I will not have a next generation Amiga any time soon. My A3000 system is nice, but is showing symptoms of dying. The floppy no longer works and the external scsi is dead. Oh well looks like I will have to buy backup A3000 MBs because there will be nothing to replace it with until sometime in 2003 if ever:-(
Regards,
redrumloa
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 33 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 04-Nov-2001 13:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (redrumloa):
I must have misread some news somewhere because I thought Eyetech had it working then
changed the design to account for the problems obtaining low volume orders for certain
chipsets. If its just a minor design change I dont think another 12 months delay would
be needed.
If I know anything of Eyetech, they *will* deliver the goods.
Regards,
Dave.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 34 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 04-Nov-2001 13:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
@ben hermans,
thank u for ure post. it is good to see well reasoned
arguement from both sides.
As for your claims for legality, are you speculating or have there
been proven similar cases in law? I thought it was legal for technology
to be 're-engineered'.
While i'm sure your coders are great that dosn't change the fact that
a split at this stage of life in the amiga community will be fatal.
i think it's time that the amiga community started pressuring YOU and RALPH to
do a deal.. or else....
:)
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 35 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 04-Nov-2001 13:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
@ben hermans,
thank u for ure post. it is good to see well reasoned
arguement from both sides.
As for your claims for legality, are you speculating or have there
been proven similar cases in law? I thought it was legal for technology
to be 're-engineered'.
While i'm sure your coders are great that dosn't change the fact that
a split at this stage of life in the amiga community will be fatal.
i think it's time that the amiga community started pressuring YOU and RALPH to
do a deal.. or else....
:)
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 36 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 04-Nov-2001 13:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Dagon):
That's Mr. Mekanix to you!
And no, I've got nothing against unity and cooperation.
What I've got something against is taking your dirty laundry into public. Do "business" in public forums. And general FUDing, slandering and flaming of opposing parties. It's worse than seeing M$, Sun and AOLTimeWarnerWhatever going at eachother.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 37 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Insider on 04-Nov-2001 14:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Sinan Gürkan):
* H&P should go back to doing what they (think they) do best. Writing 2nd rate applications for pre-existing OS' The notion that such responsibility be given to such a 2nd tier (at best) and thoroughly unprofessional company bemuses anyone who understands the way proper business is conducted in the I.T. industry i'm sure.
* bPlan/MOS/Schmidt and co have the only tangible and feasible solution at this point in time, and the mid term outlook on this doesn't see this changing from the information I have at hand. Schmidt and co are the most professional and genuinely capable "crew" existing in this whole Amiga mess. Full support and credit should be given exactly where it is due, as Ralphs track record and integrity can NOT be questioned.
* Fleecy Moss/AInc. The whole rotton piece of the puzzle. The Amiga world would be at least partially rid of mismanagement, misinformation, rhetoric and back stabbing if Fleecy, AI, and the rest of his little minions simply crawled back into their cage and back to their decrepid little world from wence they came. The level of incompetence from this faction of the Amiga world is topped only by the ignorant self belief that by mounting a sustained propaganda attack against a viable "competitor" they will succeed. It was, after all, your call NOT to work with together ultimately, was it not Fleecy?
* Disagree? Where is your beloved AmigaOne now? HAHAHAHAHAH NOT F**KING LIKELY.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 38 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Mahendra Tallur on 04-Nov-2001 14:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (adam ceremuga):
What about a PETITION ?
(after defining clear conditions of course)
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 39 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 04-Nov-2001 14:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (redrumloa):
2003 for the AmigaOne?
Not quite. Q1 of 2002 is what Alan said.
No code done for OS 4?
Not quite.
That's the propaganda from the MorphOS side.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 40 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Insider on 04-Nov-2001 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Q1 2001 is what Alan has said? Why is his timeline claim any more solid proof of any real work this time than it has been in the past, which from this whole H&P/Hyperion/AI etc mess is constantly revised and rescheduled.
Your rebuttal contains zero factual content, and it has fallen flat on its face exposing you as the class clown.
Learn when to speak and when not to speak.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 41 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 04-Nov-2001 14:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"It has to be realised that Amiga doesn't have anyone as familiar with the shortcomings of the current OS and the dual CPU architecture than the Hyperion coders who struggle with these limitations every day when they bring demanding games like Shogo, Heretic 2 and Freespace to the Amiga.
We know what the problems are and how to fix them."
Surely game programming doesn't touch all aspects of AmigaOS.
I have serious doubts the Hyperion team is cut for this job, but go ahead and prove me wrong.
"1) In my opinion a a lawyer, MorphOS violates the intellectual property of Amiga Inc for which they paid 4.5 million dollar. It's a well known fact that the MorphOS people are using the OS 3.1 source-code."
The way menu's/windows are handled are also patented, you could sue Microsoft too. The only problem is the names of parts, such as "Workbench" and "Intuition". Though I doubt it would be worth the trouble actually sueing them.
Didn't gateway licence the AmigaOS sources to P5 once? I take it this licence is no longer valid.
>The fact that Amiga has paid for and owns the IP also entails that Amiga and Amiga alone can decide what to do with it and what parts they want to be developed by whomever.
Of course they can, but it would be sensible not to kill the community.
"2) Any arrangement whereby both hardware and software come from the same source (=bPlan) is unworkable because other hardware vendors (Eyetech, Elbox, Matay) will not receive the same software support as bPlan and are hence placed at a disadvantage."
Surely this could be arranged. Contractual obligation?
"There is a clear conflict of interest because members of the MorphOS team have a financial stake in a competing hardware producer.
The only way to get around that problem is a strict contract and a separate legal entity. None of this was acceptable to the MorphOS team."
A strict but *fair* contract.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 42 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 04-Nov-2001 14:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Mahendra Tallur):
christian? sinan?
we need some amiga activism at the turbulent time in
the amiga community. ann.lu and amiga.art share the same cool readers
i believe deal is possible. both have motivations to do it.
how about it :)
propopsed blah petition
we, the amiga community believe that in the spirit the amiga community,
and due to the current situation Amiga Inc, Hyperion and MorphOS/BPlan
should compromise to the benefit of all. The amiga community has seen enought
infighting, A split now is fatal. Recognizing that MorphOS is technically advanced in development and Amiga holds the Intelectual Property rights we call on the parties involved to make a fair and sensible deal that will not
fragment the amiga community further... As the amiga community we demand a
unified solution.
<or something along those lines..
feel free to add/amend
Poll
- Do you thing that Amiga Inc. & MorphOS team should cooperate?
o. Yes, we need ONE operating system released as soon as possible and since MorphOS is quite ready, it should be the new AmigaOS. Compromise is needed.
o. No, I prefer waiting for the AmigaOS 4.0 released from current amiga
partners with an unspecified delay. split in market irelevant, MorphOS is not AmigaOS.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 43 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Insider on 04-Nov-2001 14:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Brecht):
"It has to be realised that Amiga doesn't have anyone as familiar with the shortcomings of the current OS and the dual CPU architecture than the Hyperion coders who struggle with these limitations every day when they bring demanding games like Shogo, Heretic 2 and Freespace to the Amiga.
We know what the problems are and how to fix them."
Well these minions make out like they are rocket scientists.
Constructing an eloquent new(er) OS with features such as SMP, memory protection, VM, and REAL modern OS features will take more knowledge and insight that a few hot air machines and obese brothers claim to have.
Hey Hyperion and company, porting existing C code base is *NOT* rocket science, please don't elevate yourselves to something you are not. Many greater Amiga coders have walked this earth before you. You don't even compare.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 44 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 04-Nov-2001 14:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Insider):
Memory protection is NOT possible....
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 45 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 04-Nov-2001 14:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Mahendra Tallur):
"What about a PETITION ?"
dammit, that was my idea :)
But seriously, it is definately needed!
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 46 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Insider on 04-Nov-2001 14:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
"Memory protection is NOT possible...."
MorphOS doesn't appear to suffer from this problem. Checked www.morphos.de lately, no...really, I mean it.
You once again show the average "speak before you think" mentality which has gotten H&P/Hyperion/AI etc and all Amiga faithful worldwide into the position they are faced with now, screwed in every direction.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 47 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 04-Nov-2001 14:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
@ben hermans
>2003 for the AmigaOne?
>Not quite. Q1 of 2002 is what Alan said.
>No code done for OS 4?
>Not quite.
>That's the propaganda from the MorphOS side.
ben please don't atribute statements from general users as
being from a 'side'. it's like when amiga.org got hacked
people started blaming morphos people. it was totally unwaranted.
While there are rude people that post crap it comes from a wide spectrum.
I don't think the morphos team needs to dismiss your coding efforts.
You have helped save the amiga market, and i'm sure the morphos
team respect that, because they are in the same 'postion' as yourself
unlike fleecy and bill who have done a lot less.
feel free to give an estimation on how long it would take u to create OS4?
and what is the balance between a quality product and the crazy deadline of the amiga community..?
even if you catch up to morph, you will be competing in a miniscule market.
and u are recreating the wheel, its not worth it.
wouldn't it be easier just to compromise-do what u do best, create kick ass Ami3D and make some really kick ass 3d drivers for matrox/ati etc? as well as your own cut down OpenGL api for AmigaDE?
just my opinion but please think about it...
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 48 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 04-Nov-2001 14:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Brecht):
To sue them Amiga Inc. must actually aquired the OS3.1 patents. There
was already in Escom times a law descision that Escom doesn't have any
patents regarding OS3.1. If Escom didn't have them then Gateway didn't
have them and therefore Amiga Inc. doesn't have them now.
It's even not sure if Amiga has the namerights of "Amiga" in
Europe, as you may know there is the Austrian "Amiga Telcom"
(www.amiga.at, btw. doing also TV spots in Autria AFAIH) and Amiga,
Inc. does know this and said that they will sue them. However "Amiga
Telecom" said that they have the rights of the Amiga name in Europe
and they even wondered when they protected the name that Amiga, Inc.
hasn't done before.
So actually it's not *that* easy.
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 49 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 04-Nov-2001 14:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (adam ceremuga):
>>No code done for OS 4?
>>Not quite.
>>That's the propaganda from the MorphOS side.
> ben please don't atribute statements from
> general users as being from a 'side'.
Here is a little job for you, try finding out where "No code done for OS4" originates. ;)
Ralph Schmidt comments on deal with Amiga Inc : Comment 50 of 147ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 04-Nov-2001 14:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Insider):
Investigate before you think.....
I have tried morphos and as a matter of fact I do have it on my HD
and I'm waiting for the new release with g-rex support....
The kernel supports memprot... but it's exec PPC driving the 68k
progs... not quark. NO way to do memprot on exec without breaking
*msgport and all the current software....
Oh, and you're an asshole...
BTW... I am a fan of both parties.... I'll use every solution
available...
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