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[News] Interview with Ben Hermans from HyperionANN.lu
Posted on 07-Nov-2001 20:45 GMT by Christophe Decanini194 comments
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Christoph Gutjahr interviewed Hyperion about AmigaOS 4.0. You can read the interview on amiga-news.de in English or in German.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 1 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Nov-2001 19:47 GMT
I messed up with the german link. It is: http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2001-11-00060-DE.html
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 2 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 07-Nov-2001 20:20 GMT
">>Is a "success" of OS4 crucial to the future of the company Hyperion?
>BH: No. The vast majority of Hyperion's revenue comes from paid contract-work for Mac OS 9/X. The Amiga market alone cannot sustain a company with several full-time developers."
And x86 would be the death of all commercial developement for AmigaOS eh? The OS4 market is going to be much smaller than the current market, how will that be able to keep commercial developers alive if it's already this bad now "The Amiga market alone cannot sustain a company with several full-time developers.")?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 3 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Nov-2001 20:33 GMT
I think that the key to the success is:
New OS on new hardware platform with new innovative applications (at an affordable price).
A new AmigaOS on current Amiga won't be a success.
A new AmigaOS on new hardware would fail without new applications.
If the current user base go down it is because of lack of new hardware and applications. New hardware and applications could be a success. A valid point from Hyperion is that it can not succeed on X86 where you have already all kind of applications.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 4 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 07-Nov-2001 20:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Christophe Decanini):
>New OS on new hardware platform with new innovative applications (at an affordable price).
That combination is impossible. Either it's mainstream and cheap or it's PPC/new and it's expensive.
>A valid point from Hyperion is that it can not succeed on X86 where you have already all kind of applications.
Ok, we have been over this a kazillion times x2, but I'll list some of the arguments:
1) most Amiga users already own/use a Windows PC. (Christian: poll please? :)
2) There are also other OS's available on PPC: Linux, BSD, MacOS (partial emulation).
3) New PPC CPU's can emulate PC's at full speed, so basically, PPC will also run Windows.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 5 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 07-Nov-2001 21:16 GMT
Well, that was an encouraging read. It sounds like they are on top of things, and I really like the idea of getting updates on how development is proceeding.
-
Kay
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 6 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 07-Nov-2001 21:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Christophe Decanini):
> A valid point from Hyperion is that it
> can not succeed on X86 where you have
> already all kind of applications.
How does that differ from the 99.9% of Amiga-users who does this with a different x86-box next to the Amiga?
I really don't get this attitude that people haven AmigaOS on a x86 gets an urge to boot Windows while having a x86 next to an overexpencive AmigaHW you are less inclined to boot windows? There is no logic in this. This only spells a smaller userbase.
AmigaOS 4.x for x86 will not happen, which mean it's certain now that we'll have a second fork of the Amiga community: AROS/Amithlon. 2 fighting for a minischule overpriced PPC-market and one going for the mainstream x86 architecture.
Anyone for a bet on which one will end up with the largest installed userbase? My money is on AROS/Amithlon, which suits me just fine.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 7 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 07-Nov-2001 21:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Mekanix):
So what Amithlon/AROS will never be able to run the stuff that OS 4.x will be able
run
so to state that Amithlon is fine for you
you simply state that none of the current PPC programs is of interest for you
and this includes...
Freespace, Heretic II, Real 4D etc.
so you if you choose Amithlon then you can forget about using any newish software
and this will be increasingly so
expect stuff like imagefx, pagestream etc. to only be able to run on PPC hardware
(which means Amithlon/XL is a no go for those apps)
you are also locked to OS 3.9
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 8 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 07-Nov-2001 21:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Janne):
>So what Amithlon/AROS will never be able to run the stuff that OS 4.x will be able run
>so you if you choose Amithlon then you can forget about using any newish software and this will be increasingly so
Don't forget some developers will provide x86 binaries of their software. And some will write x86-only software unfortunately, so Hyperion better provide a decent cross-compiler.
>expect stuff like imagefx, pagestream etc. to only be able to run on PPC hardware (which means Amithlon/XL is a no go for those apps)
Well, I guess we'll have wait and see, like ever since the beginning of Amiga history.
>you are also locked to OS 3.9
OS4OS3.9 + Warp3D basically.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 9 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 07-Nov-2001 21:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Brecht [darklite]):
I agree, and it annoys me that anti-x86-squad always quote the BeOS example out of context as Hermans did. Be Inc would have went under much earlier if they had stuck to PPC-only and hadn't had that revenue from BeOS/x86 (and hence getting their product into PC World).
Would Linux have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
Would QNX have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
Would half as many people be using Solaris if there was no x86 port. No.
Would half as many people still be using AmigaOS, and active members of the community if it wasn't for UAE/x86 and Amithlon/x86? No.
The truth, as ever, seems to be inconvenient.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 10 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 07-Nov-2001 21:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Mekanix):
>Anyone for a bet on which one will end up with the largest installed userbase? >My money is on AROS/Amithlon, which suits me just fine.
It's easy to forget that Amithlon is no more a long term solution than UAE! I suppose this is actually a compliment to the authors of Amithlon for producing such an integrated and transparent way of running AmigaOS :)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 11 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 07-Nov-2001 21:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Brecht [darklite]):
> OS4OS3.9 + Warp3D basically.
No.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 12 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 07-Nov-2001 21:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Brecht [darklite]):
> OS4OS3.9 + Warp3D basically.
You are doing it again.
OS4 will not be OS 3.9. It will not even be WarpOS (if you care to read the interview). Warp3D will be part of it, but only one part.
Again, I ask you to just stop talking about things you do not know.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 13 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 07-Nov-2001 22:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (smithy):
> BeOS example out of context
That's funny. BeOS went bankrupt. What's the context there?
> Would Linux have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
Since when is Linux a success? Most companies involved go bankrupt. VA Linux is doing different things now, Loki is insolvent, Corel sold out all Linux stuff. A number of users doesn't mean a number of customers.
> Would QNX have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
QNX? A success? LOL!
> Would half as many people be using Solaris if there was no x86 port.
How many, then, actually use solaris? Hands up whoever used solaris here? I have, on SPARC's, but that doesn't count, does it?
> Would half as many people still be using AmigaOS, and active members of the
> community if it wasn't for UAE/x86 and Amithlon/x86? No.
>
> The truth, as ever, seems to be inconvenient.
Yeah, especially if you bend the truth to your own liking like this. Come on, Amithlon is only out for a few days. Don't give me that crap. UAE? Sure, they are active members of the community... "Where can I find ROMS for Lemmings?" You call that active... Bah!
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 14 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Alan Watson on 07-Nov-2001 22:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Brecht [darklite]):
That's why IMO Amithlon is/was a bad idea.Just another thing to
fragment the Amiga market(as if we didn't have enough things already)
Now I don't know a lot about how writing programs for Amithlon works
with regards to 68k OS3.9 compatability,so if I'm wrong then I'm sure
I'll be corrected:)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 15 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 07-Nov-2001 22:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Alan Watson):
>OS4 will not be OS 3.9. It will not even be WarpOS (if you care to read the interview). Warp3D will be part of it, but only one part.
I didn't mention WarpOS.
What else will be new that's not in OS3.9?
>Again, I ask you to just stop talking about things you do not know.
Enlighten me.
>> BeOS example out of context
>That's funny. BeOS went bankrupt. What's the context there?
God, we must have explained this a few hundred times now... Go browse the ann archives.
>> Would Linux have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
>Since when is Linux a success? Most companies involved go bankrupt. VA Linux
>is doing different things now, Loki is insolvent, Corel sold out all Linux
>stuff. A number of users doesn't mean a number of customers.
Linux is a success in the professional world, but not on the desktop market (thank god, it sucks for desktop use).
>> Would QNX have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
>QNX? A success? LOL!
In the embedded market mostly.
>> Would half as many people be using Solaris if there was no x86 port.
>How many, then, actually use solaris? Hands up whoever used solaris here? I
>have, on SPARC's, but that doesn't count, does it?
professional world...
But all these OS's are/were far more successfull on the desktop market than a PPC AmigaOS will ever be.
>> Would half as many people still be using AmigaOS, and active members of the
>> community if it wasn't for UAE/x86 and Amithlon/x86? No.
>>
>> The truth, as ever, seems to be inconvenient.
>
>Yeah, especially if you bend the truth to your own liking like this. Come on,
>Amithlon is only out for a few days. Don't give me that crap. UAE? Sure, they
>are active members of the community... "Where can I find ROMS for Lemmings?" >You call that active... Bah!
You know better than to generalise than that.
BTW. Don't you have a deadline to make? ;p
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 16 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 07-Nov-2001 22:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Janne):
You don't know if you're locked to OS3.9 because you don't know the
contract between Amiga Inc and H&P. What might be possible: "Make 68k
versions of the new OS features and we allow you to use OS3.5/3.9
source". Remember that Juergen Haage wanted to do an 68k version of
OS4. Guess why...
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 17 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 07-Nov-2001 22:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Brecht [darklite]):
>OS4OS3.9 + Warp3D basically
-
Sure. BTW:
MorphOSppc.library basically
No? Well I guess I shouldn't talk about things I have no real knowledge about then! I guess you shouldn't either.
-
Kay
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 18 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 07-Nov-2001 22:40 GMT
Why do some people feel the need to rip Hyperion all the time? Don't tell me 'they are unprofessional, rude blah blah blah'. Bullhonky, I think RS is that, but I don't take every opportunity to bash him. Personally I think it's a good thing to see the people behind the scenes talking in open forums. Don't tell me it's because they badmouth RS, RS does plenty of that himself. Companies always badmouth each other. Ever heard what Sun has to say about Microsoft? i think it's interesting to be in audience to hear all this:-)
Well actually what I just typed rambled a bit and doesn't make 100% sense;-) But basically I think Hyperion is getting a bit too much undue heat. Just my opinion.
Regards,
redrumloa
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 19 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Nov-2001 22:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Brecht [darklite]):
>What else will be new that's not in OS3.9?
>Enlighten me.
Ehh. Did you ever bothered to read the OS4 feature-list on amiga.com? No? Then set your channels to input, instead of only output (of white noise). Moreover, Ben just said there will be even more.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 20 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 07-Nov-2001 22:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (redrumloa):
I personally have nothing against the Hyperion guys, *except* for the fact that they don't see an x86 AmigaOS. I don't think I've flamed Hyperion, I just try to give some good arguments to show that they are mistaking about that x86-Windows theory.
People have explained the BeOS bankruptcy over and over, yet Ben insists on using that as an argument against an x86 AmigaOS. Now, some people just can't stand that, including me.
I think the x86-Windows theory is just a way to cover up the pride of 'custom' hardware. Some people still think that x86 is the devil, while AmigaOS NEEDS x86 to survive.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 21 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 07-Nov-2001 22:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
>That's funny. BeOS went bankrupt. What's the context there?
The failure of Be was given as a reason to not have a version of AmigaOS on the PC. But Be didn't go bankrupt because of BeOS on the PC (that is the context being expressed). In fact, BeOS/x86 increased the sales of BeOS massively, generated revenue and gave them a high street presence.
"Since when is Linux a success? Most companies involved go bankrupt. VA Linux is doing different things now, Loki is insolvent,"
Market dynamics. In every young market with fast growth there are always too many players, when the market starts to mature some players disappear. Just look at the mobile phone market, a similar phenomenon is happening there.
"Corel sold out all Linux stuff."
If I remember correctly that was something to do with Microsoft purchasing a stake in Corel, not because of the state of the Linux market.
"A number of users doesn't mean a number of customers. "
How many people do you know actually download their Linux copies? I don't know anybody that does that. Everybody I know goes to PC World and spends 30-60 UKP on a Linux distribution. It's easier, it's faster, it's less hassle.
>QNX? A success? LOL!
QNX are moving into the desktop market and seem to be doing well from it. But what if they decided to move into the desktop market with custom hardware. Would they be doing a fraction as well?
"Yeah, especially if you bend the truth to your own liking like this."
Which parts have I bent?
>Come on, Amithlon is only out for a few days.
True, bad example....
"Don't give me that crap. UAE? Sure, they are active members of the community... "Where can I find ROMS for Lemmings?" You call that active... Bah!"
....but UAE isn't a bad example. I know loads of people on IRC who use UAE as their main Amiga system. I think the stereotypical emulator user/retro-gamer doesn't fit anymore.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 22 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 07-Nov-2001 22:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
>Ehh. Did you ever bothered to read the OS4 feature-list on amiga.com? No? Then set your channels to input, instead of only output (of white noise). Moreover, Ben just said there will be even more.
I probably did, SOME 8 MONTHS AGO.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 23 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 07-Nov-2001 22:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Brecht [darklite]):
>I didn't mention WarpOS.
-
Nobody said you did.
-
>What else will be new that's not in OS3.9?
-
http://www.amiga.com/corporate/041201-techupdate-B.shtml
Ben Hermans said his feature list was essentially still correct, although they hoped they could add to it. This info was fairly easy to find. Why bother key developers when you can find the answers easily elsewhere?
-
>But all these OS's are/were far more successfull on the desktop market than
>a PPC AmigaOS will ever be.
-
We'll see. I hope you are wrong.
-
>You know better than to generalise than that.
-
It's usually bad to generalize, but I think his point was that the UAE community are not for the most part the most useful part of the Amiga world. And I think I can agree on that. Two reasons for that: Reason number one, UAE users don't buy much Amiga hardware (if they did, they wouldn't need to emulate it). Reason number two, most UAE users don't buy a much Amiga software (just look at how many Amiga rom sites there are out there). But maybe UAE has been/can be useful for drawing people's attention towards Amiga?
-
>BTW. Don't you have a deadline to make? ;p
-
He probably has, and I don't think you are helping. :-) It seem the Friedens just can't bear to let your posts stand uncommented...
-
Kay
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 24 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Nov-2001 23:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Brecht [darklite]):
Ohh, then probably you forget that since then... :/
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 25 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 07-Nov-2001 23:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
>>I didn't mention WarpOS.
>Nobody said you did.
He implied.
>>What else will be new that's not in OS3.9?
>http://www.amiga.com/corporate/041201-techupdate-B.shtml
Ben Hermans said his feature list was essentially still correct, although they hoped they could add to it. This info was fairly easy to find.
It's getting late, i'll look at this later... (I didn't find that page so easily though).
>Why bother key developers when you can find the answers easily elsewhere?
To stall them so the tradition of delays will not be broken? ;)
>>But all these OS's are/were far more successfull on the desktop market than
>>a PPC AmigaOS will ever be.
>We'll see. I hope you are wrong.
So do I.
>>You know better than to generalise than that.
>It's usually bad to generalize, but I think his point was that the UAE
>community are not for the most part the most useful part of the Amiga world.
>And I think I can agree on that. Two reasons for that: Reason number one, UAE
>users don't buy much Amiga hardware (if they did, they wouldn't need to
>emulate it). Reason number two, most UAE users don't buy a much Amiga software
>(just look at how many Amiga rom sites there are out there). But maybe UAE has
>been/can be useful for drawing people's attention towards Amiga?
And how many of these sites offer anything but 8+ year old games? And it's not that easy to find Amiga kickstart ROMs btw.
I bought netconnect and dopus magellan 2 since I've been using UAE. Browsing on my a1200 030 was a pain. Too bad bsdsocket emulation is incomplete in UAE, I'd be using it alot more (thx to Amithlon I will be able to do so soon).
>>BTW. Don't you have a deadline to make? ;p
>He probably has, and I don't think you are helping. :-) It seem the Friedens
>just can't bear to let your posts stand uncommented...
Hey, as long as I can kill some time ;)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 26 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by tinman on 07-Nov-2001 23:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (smithy):
> In fact, BeOS/x86 increased the sales of BeOS massively,
> generated revenue and gave them a high street presence.
Wasn't BeOS/x86 given away free, or was that only towards the end? If it was free the whole time how did Be increase sales?
As for high street presence, not really. The only PC system sold with it pre-loaded had it hidden. Interestingly the DoJ are trying to stop MS from blocking other OSes at the bootloader stage which was a major hinderance to all non-MS OSes running on x86.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 27 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mandrake on 07-Nov-2001 23:27 GMT
How many people do you know actually download their Linux copies? I don't know anybody that does that. Everybody I know goes to PC World and spends 30-60 UKP on a Linux distribution. It's easier, it's faster, it's less hassle
Well I downloaded the Mandrake 8.1 images and give copies to all my friends.
I only bought Redhat 6.1.
so noone bought it here.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 28 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by NM on 07-Nov-2001 23:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Brecht [darklite]):
> Linux is a success in the professional world, but not on the desktop market
>(thank god, it sucks for desktop use).
I am becoming increasingly tired by Amigans who trot out this old FUD. Yes, I'm sure when you last tried out FWVM95 and XFree86 V 2, it was unpleasant. These days, with KDE2.2.1, it is undoubtedly the nicest desktop experience for me - a fairly technicall knowledgeable ex-Amigan who, as with his Amiga, doesn't want his environment to patronise the hell out of him.
All you who say how much Linux "sucks as a desktop" are trotting out the day before yesterday's meme, frankly: it's like someone who used Workbench1.0 assuming that this was the best GUI experience ever achieved by the Amiga. Shame on Amigans, of all people, to swallow this Microsoft FUD.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 29 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 08-Nov-2001 00:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Mandrake):
Yes, I got Mandrake 8.1 via download - very nice it is as well - thoroughly recommend it (there are some issues, but then again, all OSs have issues).
I have never bought a Linux distribution (I have bought FreeBSD though). I got some Linux distros from coverdisks (Suse 5.1, Mandrake 7.1), and one in a book (RedHat 4.2), and one from a friend (RedHat 5.2).
The features in your average Linux desktop are extremely advanced now. KDE and Gnome for instance both have all the features that you would expect from a top desktop OS, but with a lot more flexibility. Memory requirements are high though, but memory is cheap at the moment.
The applications are getting better and more featured all the time. KOffice, Gnumeric, etc are all top notch programs, and improving at startling rates.
To be honest, I personally think that Amiga OS 5 should use one of these free desktop systems (no, not with X, they both come with a layer between the system and the rendering platform which can be replaced should you wish). I don't mean that Amiga OS 5 should be Linux based either, or Unix based - it should be an Amiga! Then with "minor" work, you can port all of these excellent software packages to the Amiga (minor meaning deal with the POSIX and Unix issues, no not trivial, but a lot easier than having to start from scratch).
Please note - my opinions are my opinions, they do not necessarily have to be yours! I just think that writing the desktop part of an OS is the longest and most time consuming part, and the Amiga's is 8 years behind and lacks 95% of every other desktop's features. There are things about the Amiga that make up for this in part of course, but not enough in my opinion.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 30 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Nov-2001 00:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
>>OS4OS3.9 + Warp3D basically
>>
>Sure. BTW:
>MorphOSppc.library basically
>No? Well I guess I shouldn't talk about things I have no real knowledge about
>then! I guess you shouldn't either.
>
Give it up, he is no MorphOS but Amithlon supporter and your teasing does not work.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 31 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Skal Loret on 08-Nov-2001 00:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Graham):
I agree with you, Graham. Any talk about Linux(I, too, have Mandrake 8.1...well...more like 8.2;') and KDE here, GNOME, Blackbox, Windowmaker, Enlightenment, XFCE, IceWM...did I miss anything?
Linux with KDE is ready for primetime, especially since its screen metaphor is instantly recognizable to 95% of computer users. GNOME is usable by the more adept, but not much more adept. XFCE is cool, but I seem to be in KDE most of the time. Blackbox and WM are both nice and AfterStep is sure fast. Enlightenment is pretty, but not that easy to use for me.
So, does this mean I have given up on Amiga? Hell no! I just don't have an Amiga I can put on the net right now. I had quite enough WinBlowZ for one lifetime, thanks, and someone gave me the Mandrake disks. Yoiks and away I was.
We can all learn from other options, and we should. It will give us a chance to grow in our understanding of what is the present paradigm in OSs, and with that knowledge, we can make clear and cogent suggestions about what we sould see as useful in a new OS.
Certainly beats the hell out of the usual razor fights we have grown all too used to, of late...:'/
-skal
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 32 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Nov-2001 00:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Graham):
>Memory requirements are high though, but memory is cheap at the moment.
>
But then, more data to be fetched/processed -> slowdown
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 33 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ruben Monteiro on 08-Nov-2001 01:52 GMT
Hyperion's arguments for advocating PPC are completely ridiculous.
"Let's run away from Windows, and have a AmigaOS/PPC". Oustanding. This brilliant move ensures that, besides Microsoft, Amiga now has to compete with Intel/AMD. But it get's better: the PPC move also ensures Amiga will run on expensive hardware that's not available anywhere. This is great, because we don't want to make it easy for people, do we? I mean, what has the world come to, that you can go to any PC shop and get new hardware for your Amiga, cheap???
I'm sorry for the sarcasm, and I'm sorry for not falling for this PPC madness. 12 years ago, the Amiga rulled because it was a computer for the masses, available everywhere. You now want to turn it into an exotic platform that only a couple of thousand now it exists. Your narrow minded vision makes me sick.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 34 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 08-Nov-2001 04:41 GMT
Not only will Amiga resist backing down or running away from challenging Microsoft Windows right where it sits, it will tear a chunk out of its market share because of the pure preference of those who wish they *could* run away.
The whole Amiga OS 4.0 line (4.0, 4.2, 4.5, 4.whatever), as far as I understand, is a port from Classic to PPC, while 3.9 is the last of the Classic line (and is to be emulated on x86, adding yet another emulation solution there). Could be wrong :) but I think 5.0 is targeted as the Amiga OS that will run on both x86 and PPC (very possible to have the single 5.0 CD install on either side, based on user preference at installation prompt--or even autosensing hardware present). Seems obvious that the 4.x line preserves and concentrates on what is left of the Amiga market on that side while continuing to move fully to native PPC. If there aren't two different versions of 5.0 (one for x86 and one for PPC--which I think would be a waste, really), then it would be the one package with relevant libraries and commands... only what is needed is installed, anyway. Two versions or not of 5.0, it'll have embedded into it the AmigaDE. Anyone writing to AmigaDE sees their programs run wherever AmigaDE is ;)
PeeCee people writing to AmigaDE and thinking their programs will run on x86 (as is planned), will probably drop their jaws if they didn't realize those same programs automatically can show up on the PPC-side. And, vice-versa. Neat, huh? :-P
The Amiga market won't shrink, it'll expand at a lightning rate--faster than Linux when the final things are put into their proper places.
--EyeAm
http://www.ElectricOil.com
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 35 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Harry Kok on 08-Nov-2001 05:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Ruben Monteiro):
No, you can not have it both ways.
Either you're gonna go the specific hardware route,
or the 'We support everyting that's out there" route.
-windows-
And the ppc itself doesn't have to be that expensive.
You would just need high production numbers to
recoup the development cost of a new mainboard.
Remember that the amiga is based on the 68000, at that
time considered an 'elite' processor.
What would the amiga have been like if they had gone
for the (cheaper) x86 route in the first place?
Segmented adressing, 1Meg hurdle, 16->32 bit transition,
an instruction-set from the early 1970's which is
highly unsuitable for parallel execution, wrong endianess
lots of redundancy. Even the 8086 itself isn't 'clean',
but a kludged-up 4004.
And you want to go x86 now?
'Warning, you cannot get back what you throw away, continue?'
'Warning, intel and AMD are battling'
'Warning, endianess'
'Warning, microsoft'
'Warning, not a really different machine'
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 36 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 08-Nov-2001 05:45 GMT
Hey guys you are doing it again!
STOP IT!
Eyeam: Do you think the future 64 bit intel chips can be called "x86", even though they are totally different? U C, last time I checked OS5 was going to be 64-bit OS.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 37 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Nov-2001 07:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (smithy):
> Would Linux have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
Most definitly not, that's true.
However, it's not exactly a desktop OS (except for the hardcore Linux fan), so as a desktop OS it is not successful. (And before any Linux Weenies start flaming, I do know what I am talking about, I regularly try out the latest releases etc - it still requires too much knowledge for a non-tech to set up and run on their own. That's just the way of things, and what is to be expected from what is effectvly a "geek" OS. Not a critisism, just an observation.).
> Would QNX have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
It's not exactly a roaring success, to be fair...
> Would half as many people be using Solaris if there was no x86 port. No.
LOL!
Yeah, right!
The vast majority of Solaris installations are on Sparc, NOT x86 - ask Sun if you disbelieve.
x86 contributes VERY little to Solaris's success (here's a clue for you - if, as you claim, >50% of Solaris installations are x86, how come the VAST majority of commercial Solaris software is Sparc-only?)
> Would half as many people still be using AmigaOS, and active members of the community if it wasn't for UAE/x86 and Amithlon/x86? No.
I disagree.
In your UAE count, ignore the vast number of pirates who use it (disbelieve? Hang around Usenet or go hunting round the web), and I do not believe you'll find that >50% of Amiga users are running UAE and/or Amithlon/AmigaOSXL.
One thing that many pro-x86 supporters conveniently forget to consider when calling for AmigaOS to be ported now, is that x86 is all-but dead.
What? x86 all but dead? Am I mad?!?!
No, I'm not.
The x86 line has reached the end.
AMD and Intel are both readying their 64-bit replacements (about flipping time too! e.g. the Sun Sparc series has been 64-bit for many many years! Nice to see the x86-companies finally catching up <g).
Sure, these new 64-bit processors will have x86 compatability, but they will be far more efficient runinng NATIVE code.
Given the timeframes of these and the AmigaOS development timeline, it makes FAR more sense to concentrate on PPC for now (2.4GHz G5, anyway? You know, the beast which is thrashing the PIV in all benchmarks and is due to be on sale next year...), and be ready to migrate nativly to the new CPUs when they come out - it'd be a far more efficient and faster OS as a result.
Just my 2p-worth, do with as you will.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 38 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam Cheese on 08-Nov-2001 08:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
>Well, that was an encouraging read. It sounds like they are on top of things, >and I really like the idea of getting updates on how development is proceeding.
yeah they are starting on scratch on ppc stuff that ralph and co have
already done months ago thus leading the market to a slow death..
it's pretty simple
-Hyperion do 3d stuff for PPC and DE
-MorphOS do ppc replacement for OS
Why is hyperion recreating the wheel?
WHAT are these f***king Retards at Amiga Inc doing?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 39 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 08-Nov-2001 08:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (NM):
I tried SuSE Linux (forget the version) about a Month ago (it was brand new then). It came with KDE and Gnome. As a desktop OS, it was dreadful. Far too overcomplicated (that is NOT to say I didn't understand it, but it WAS more complicated than is necessary). If I wanted to set an option, it could be in any one of around 8 different configuration editors, none of which were named anything that gave a clue to their function.
The whole thing seemed like a cobbled together mess. It really is not ready for the general desktop market.
This is one of the reasons I like AmigaOS so much. Files are kept in fairly logical places, the preferences programs are named after what they do, it doesn't baby you through everything (like MacOS), and it is not overcomplicated. A very nice balance indeed.
THIS is what I'm looking forward to in OS4; a continuation of these principles.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 40 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 08-Nov-2001 08:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Anonymous):
>In your UAE count, ignore the vast number of pirates who use it (disbelieve? Hang around Usenet or go hunting round the web), and I do not believe you'll find that >50% of Amiga users are running UAE and/or Amithlon/AmigaOSXL.
The problem is that users who use UAE for Workbench use don't ask around on usenet NOT wanting games. We really need a poll.
>Sure, these new 64-bit processors will have x86 compatability, but they will be far more efficient runinng NATIVE code.
Go read about the AMD Hammer.
>Given the timeframes of these and the AmigaOS development timeline, it makes FAR more sense to concentrate on PPC for now (2.4GHz G5, anyway? You know, the beast which is thrashing the PIV in all benchmarks and is due to be on sale next year...), and be ready to migrate nativly to the new CPUs when they come out - it'd be a far more efficient and faster OS as a result.
Rather compare the G5 to an AMD chip at the same price (that is, if you can find an AMD chip that expensive).
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 41 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 08-Nov-2001 08:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Brecht [darklite]):
Brecht: It's not because you attend Group T that you make stupid comments.
OS 4 will be much more than OS 3.9 + Warp3D.
This is totally baseless, idiotic comment which cleary shows that
1) you didn't read the interview (which didn't stop you from commenting)
or
2) you are spreading disinformation on purpose.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 42 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 08-Nov-2001 08:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (David Scheibler):
This won't happen.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 43 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 08-Nov-2001 09:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Brecht: It's not because you attend Group T that you make stupid comments.
Is that supposed to be an insult? At least try to make correct sentences :p
>This is totally baseless, idiotic comment which cleary shows that
>1) you didn't read the interview (which didn't stop you from commenting)
I did, and I was disgusted how you still managed to give BeOS as an example for your idiotic anti-x86 theory.
>OS 4 will be much more than OS 3.9 + Warp3D.
>2) you are spreading disinformation on purpose.
TELL ME what will be new in OS4, other than it being a (partial) ppc port of the OS, warp3d and some previously third party software.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 44 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 08-Nov-2001 09:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
> > BeOS example out of context
> That's funny. BeOS went bankrupt. What's the context there?
The fact it went bankrupt it's due just to the fact that it didn't have an enough big userbase. If it stuck with PPC it would have gon banckrupt much earlier, this is for sure.
> > Would Linux have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
> Since when is Linux a success? Most companies involved go bankrupt. VA Linux
> is doing different things now, Loki is insolvent, Corel sold out all Linux
> stuff. A number of users doesn't mean a number of customers.
Well, but the Linux community is *NOT* willing to pay for anything. If you think you can sell something to the linux community then yes, you're wrong, and VA Linux and Loki can teach you JUST THAT. You cannot take them as an example of how difficult is competing in the x86 market.
Can you answer to this question? What stop potential customers of your PPC related products from buying x86 retalet products for their x86 machines or from buying x86 machines at all? How can you belieeve that sticking with PPC will not make you compete with Windows?
Fabio Alemagna
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 45 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 08-Nov-2001 09:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Brecht [darklite]):
Come to Cologne and find out.
Or better yet, have the guts to meet me in Leuven.
Industrial engineers ....
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 46 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ugr on 08-Nov-2001 09:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Brecht [darklite]):
> TELL ME what will be new in OS4
Kernel will be new in AmigaOS 4.0 but you are right Amiga need AmigaOS also for good and
cheap x86 hardware not only for expensive PPC.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 47 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Teemu I. Yliselä on 08-Nov-2001 09:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Graham):
I also downloaded Suse 7.2 a while ago. Was a bit of a pain to install for a Linux newbie like me, but now that I've got it working, it's a pretty nice system. Sure as hell prefer it over Windows anyway.
In comparison, BTW, I also installed QNX RTP, and it was a real breeze. It installed from CD in less than 5 minutes with no problems what-so-ever. All my hardware got auto-recognized from the get-go and is working as should. Even Windows doesn't do it THAT painlessly. BIG kudos to the QSSL people for getting it right!
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 48 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Nov-2001 09:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Ruben Monteiro):
>"Let's run away from Windows, and have a AmigaOS/PPC". Oustanding. This brilliant
>move ensures that, besides Microsoft, Amiga now has to compete with Intel/AMD.
>
Amiga is no CPU manufacturer and does not have to compete with Intel/AMD
>
>But it get's better: the PPC move also ensures Amiga will run on expensive hardware
>that's not available anywhere. This is great, because we don't want to make it easy
>for people, do we? I mean, what has the world come to, that you can go to any PC shop
>and get new hardware for your Amiga, cheap???
>
I don't care shit for incompetent PC shops. Mailorder is fast and cheap and you'll get
cheap PCI hardware to use in your new Amiga, right?
>
>I'm sorry for the sarcasm, and I'm sorry for not falling for this PPC madness.
>
PPC is a clean design and with the next incarnation, the G5, you'll get outstanding
performance. Buy buying PC hardware (board/cpu) you only support PC companies, which
really don't care for Amiga. If there is a manufacturer (e.g. bplan) who designs and
sells new hardware in numbers, I don't see any drawbacks.
Just look at the x86 world - how long did it take to get some more decent chipsets
with DDR support for K7? When was the first K7 <$500 MP board available?
>
>12 years ago, the Amiga rulled because it was a computer for the masses, available
>everywhere.
>
Good specs, good OS and pirate copies everywhere. ;)
It was a time computer were still outstanding and thrilling.
>
>You now want to turn it into an exotic platform that only a couple of
>thousand now it exists. Your narrow minded vision makes me sick.
>
I think you are the person with the narrow mind..."my way [x86] or the highway"?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 49 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 08-Nov-2001 09:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Fabio Alemagna):
- The fact it went bankrupt it's due just to the fact that it didn't have an
- enough big userbase. If it stuck with PPC it would have gon banckrupt much
- earlier, this is for sure.
It was doing fine when it was writing an OS for its own PPC boxes. Extending the features to the PPC Mac was logical, but reduced BeBox sales, so they got out of the hardware business. They ported to x86, but they said it was PC compatible when it didn't support most of the hardware.
It failed because most people couldn't run it on their PCs and get full hardware support. When the BeBox was around, the hardware could be restricted. The Mac is also restricted in terms of hardware. The PC is chockablock with hardware - supporting it all is a nightmare.
If Amiga were to go the x86(-64) route, they should make it clear that it will not run on a PC. An Amiga x86 would not have a BIOS, but a 2MB flash ROM, for example (yes, basically a bigger BIOS chip as these are 256KB flash ROMs, with Amiga stuff in it, not a BIOS). The supported hardware would be restricted - e.g., limited to chipset X, graphics cards Y&Z, audio W, and so on. So basically a custom motherboard that just happens to have an x86 in it as a CPU.
To be honest, the NG Amiga will not take off in my opinion, at most it will have a mild success.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 50 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 08-Nov-2001 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Peter Gordon):
- If I wanted to set an option, it could be in any one of around 8 different
- configuration editors, none of which were named anything that gave a clue
- to their function.
That is a distribution problem then, not a desktop environment problem.
Mandrake has the Mandrake Control Center, which basically manages everything, so everything can be configured from within the same application. Although not perfect, it is pretty good overall. Still, this is only an application, not a core desktop component! I would assume an KDE based AmigaOS 5 would still have Prefs: to setup stuff.
Apart from that, KDE is a breeze to use. Logical menus, consistent themable look, multiple named desktops (much more useraccessible than screens), menu can be at the top of the screen, and good applications.
Gnome is a bit more complex in my opinion, and looks a bit more amateurish in terms of default interface. However, v2 is slated to be used as the default desktop in Solaris 9 (a little after it is shipped). This is because it has a lot of good stuff under the interface, and the interface will probably be changed by Sun to look better.
Graham
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