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[News] Interview with Ben Hermans from HyperionANN.lu
Posted on 07-Nov-2001 20:45 GMT by Christophe Decanini194 comments
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Christoph Gutjahr interviewed Hyperion about AmigaOS 4.0. You can read the interview on amiga-news.de in English or in German.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 101 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 14:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 93 (Fabio Alemagna):
I agree that (unfortunately) you need a kind of monopoly of the OS on the hardware. This is why I think AmigaOS 4.0 should run on custom hardware and not on x86 to have its own small monopoly before trying to run everywhere (AmigaDe ?).
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 102 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam on 08-Nov-2001 15:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 98 (m0ns00n):
> All they do is complain and fight and play arrogant techheads, in the real >world, living out their lives cluelessly blind.
stop being such a elitist.. there seems to be such a feeling of pesimisim and doom and gloom. worst i've ever seen it.
the only thing that can lift amiga community from it's current low is
compromise and agreement between mr hermans and mr schimdt.. (hint, hint..:)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 103 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 15:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Christophe Decanini):
>Smaller user base but a user base that allows commercial development. How could Hyperion, Haage & Partner, ... compete against windows software ?
They don't have to if they release decent software. I myself can't wait to browse with Voyager instead of all the bloated crap on Win/Linux.
>Do you thing Newtek will do a new lightwave for an x86 Amiga ? No way they would just say "use our Windows version".
Can you please point me to the PPC Amiga version?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 104 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 15:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Christophe Decanini):
>>1) most Amiga users already own/use a Windows PC. (Christian: poll please? :)
>Which one use an Amiga and a PC and whcih one use a PC to run AmigaOS ?
On these last users how many contribute ($$$) to commercial developments ?
Noone knows... we'd need a poll.
>Linux on PPC has not has much application as the current AmigaOS.
>BSD is more server oriented.
You somehow 'forgot' to explain MacOS.
>>3) New PPC CPU's can emulate PC's at full speed, so basically, PPC will also run Windows.
>But it won't be installed on every machine.
Same for Amithlon systems. I've seen several people on the Amithlon ML that bought a dedicated x86 box for Amithlon.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 105 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 15:12 GMT
@Moonsoon
If you don't like Amiga users, developers, dealers just go away and leave the Amiga forums.
I know happy Amiga users, we have happy customers.
I'am myself one and I like to spend my money in Amiga products where I know the people that are developing them.
Perhaps I paid pricy hardware once on a while but I got nice cheap software.
Of course things could be better but I think that I enjoy my Amiga much better than the wintel and mac I used.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 106 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 08-Nov-2001 15:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (m0ns00n):
Is this outburst somehow meant to be a reply to what I wrote? The only thing you
wrote which has some relevance to what I wrote is the bit about UAE users not
buying software, and you got that wrong. I never said UAE users never buy software,
I'm simply saying they don't buy much software. You having bought IB2 doesn't convince
me otherwise. IB2 is ONE piece of software, and that might just be above average for
UAE users (given that most of them are retro gamers)...
-
Being able to code stuff for ECS is great fun, I'm sure, but I really doubt it is much
of a way forward. I think we need an updated AmigaOS. I think we need some new apps,
and some backwards compatability. I think we need better hardware. Perhaps this could
be done with AmigaOS for PPC, it could be done with AmigaOS x86, but I sincerely doubt
it could be done with UAE.
-
>AmigaOS is going down the drain, and I won't sink with the ship. I won't be
>stupid and let the rest of the world leave me with competance on a system no
>employer needs, and with a system I can't afford(!).
I will work with whatever OS puts food on the table during work hours, and with
what I enjoy working with in my spare time.
-
Oh and finally, AmigaOS PPC versus x86, which I didn't originally comment on at
all...I think that PPC is the way to go for now. Now, before people start a long
patronizing ramble about price/performance and the availability advanages of X86:
I know that. We all do. It's not the point. The point is, AmigaOS running in
parallell with Windows would be competing more directly with Windows. Sure, a lot
of you have x86 boxes by now. But if an Amiga is your main system, you probably
prefer to buy Amiga software instead of Windows equivalents. Would that still be so
if you had Windows and AmigaOS both installed on the same system, just a reboot away
from eachother? Given the pricing and availability of Windows software, I don't
think so. And as for those of us who don't even have a Windows based system (I'm
one of them), we certainly would get Windows if it ran on the same hardware. Would
we buy less Amiga software? Probably. So Amiga software development would take a
hit. As would retail. Then there is hardware. AmigaOS x86 is the end of custom
Amiga hardware development. Now, this might be a good thing or a bad thing depends on
your viewpoint, but I'll tell you this much: It WILL harm retail.
-
AmigaOS x86 would be a possibility if we had software development to compete with
Windows. As for now, we don't. Thus we can't support retail (we barely can now).
Then who will sell Amiga products? And who will make them?
-
Kay
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 107 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 15:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (windtalkers):
>>In fact, BeOS/x86 increased the sales of BeOS massively, generated revenue
>>and gave them a high street presence.
>And that's why they ended up giving it for free?
>Pleeeeaze... get your facts straight
It's not free, the 'personal edition' that can only be installed in a windows partition is free.
get YOUR facts straight.
>It would make no sense in porting Windows games to AmigaOS
It makes no sense porting Windows games to PPC AmigaOS, as Hyperion said it cannot survive on the Amiga market alone.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 108 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 15:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Christophe Decanini):
>In your previous post you just said that none of the Desktop OS on the X86 have been a success except Windows. Do you really think that AmigaOS can beat windows on X86 after the failure of IBM, SUN, Linux, ... ?
Linux is a success, for geeks.
An OS doesn't have to beat windows and rule the world to be a success. It just makes more sense going x86 in a situation like this.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 109 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 15:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Christophe Decanini):
>AmigaOS 4.0 has just more chance to expand starting on a specific hardware platform.
That's the most utter crap I've yet heard.
PPC is a dead end. Noone will buy an expensive PPC motherboard that runs only AmigaOS, except for die-hard Amiga fans.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 110 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 15:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 103 (Brecht):
>>Smaller user base but a user base that allows commercial development. How could Hyperion, Haage & Partner, ... compete against windows software ?
>They don't have to if they release decent software. I myself can't wait to browse with Voyager instead of all the bloated crap on Win/Linux.
To release decent software you need time and a platform with users to help financing next versions. You can not start competing on Windows if your product is starting on Windows competing against well established software.
>>Do you thing Newtek will do a new lightwave for an x86 Amiga ? No way they would just say "use our Windows version".
>Can you please point me to the PPC Amiga version?
Newtek is not a Windows only company. They could go back to Amiga if we could get back a decent userbase.
The problem is we need: hardware platform, and software to get more users.
So if whoever bring a next AmigaOS can have the commitment of the majority of Amiga developers to do applications for the new platform it can become true.
Look at Apple. They have their hardware platform and a strong commitment from some software company that did best sellers (Adobe, Macromedia ...). They got Lightwave, Maya.
Of course the Amiga is far behind Apple.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 111 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Nov-2001 15:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Ruben Monteiro):
> I'm sorry for the sarcasm, and I'm sorry for not falling for this PPC madness. 12 years ago, the Amiga rulled
> because it was a computer for the masses, available everywhere. You now want to turn it into an exotic
> platform that only a couple of thousand now it exists. Your narrow minded vision makes me sick.
Dude, chill. Amiga is and has been an "exotic platform that only a couple thousand know it exists".
Even fewer care that it exists. People I work with know I have and use Amigas, and they get quite a
laugh over it. Everyone that knows about Amiga but doesn't have one has considered it a dead and
bueried platform for a lot of years. Look into any Slashdot thread that has anything to do with Amiga,
no one really wants to hear about it anymore.
Now, there is some sense in Hyperion's x86 stance. If AmigaOS went x86 and not PPC
because a few people like you think it's too expensive and rare, then Hyperion have to
compete directly with Windows games developers. Guess what that means? Say Hyperion wants
to license a port of Half Life (this is HYPOTHETICAL!!) to AmigaOS x86. Nearly everyone
that would be the slightest bit interested in an AmigaOS x86 Half Life ALREADY OWNS Half Life
for Windows. I do. Why should I buy it for AmigaOS x86 when I already own a copy and have
nearly finished the game since months ago? Hyperion could not possibly sell enough copies
to come close to break-even on their license fee, let alone pay their programmers. And the
majority of Amiga users would still multi-boot with Windows, because you really cannot
escape that. I tried, and tried real hard. But my universal TV remote can be reprogrammed
by computer to add new codes (like for my Apex DVD), and it of course is a Windows program that
interfaces with MS Excel to manage the codes. I've been getting requests from "headhunters"
offering me jobs, asking me for my resume in MS Word format and no other. My PCB layout tool
is for Windows, and the FPGA chips I use in my tinkering has software available only for
Windows and nothing else. Due to this, if I see a game I like, I'm much more likely to
just go out and buy the Windows version than wait 4 or 5 years for the *possibility* that
Hyperion or someone else might decide to license a port of it.
Considering how I myself would act in buying Windows games sooner and cheaper, and the fact
that most Amiga users would do the same, I can perfectly understand Hyperion's concern
regarding the marketability of AmigaOS x86 apps/games.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 112 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 15:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 104 (Brecht):
>You somehow 'forgot' to explain MacOS.
Because I don't think that it will compete with a PPC AmigaOS because it won't be easyly installable on an AmigaOne or Pegasos.
>>3) New PPC CPU's can emulate PC's at full speed, so basically, PPC will also run Windows.
>But it won't be installed on every machine.
>Same for Amithlon systems. I've seen several people on the Amithlon ML that >bought a dedicated x86 box for Amithlon.
This are Amiga customers lost for Amiga dealers. It confirms what I said before: How these UAE /Amithlon users really contribute ($$$) to the Amiga development ?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 113 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 15:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> The only problem is that x86 means
> Windows and Windows stiffles competition.
> Theoretically, an x86 box which cannot run
> Windows would do the trick but unfortunately
> that would be a custom product making the
> whole affaire "expensive" again.
Gnargh! How often are you going to repeat that nonsense? There is so much wrong with your reasoning that my head hurts and I really don't know where to begin.
Firstly you assume that when people have access to Windows they'd be lured to boot Windows over anything else. This assumtion is flawed on 2 counts. Reality check: most amigauser (if not all) *do* have a windows-box, so the "Windwosfactor" would apply for the current situation if not more. Wouldn't a running Windowssession (next to your Amiga) make you use Windows more often? While the hassle of dualbooting would make you less inclined to boot into Windows unless need be?
But all this really doesn't matter, because your Windowsassumption is just plain wrong. A huge amount of people are *not* running Windows on their x86 equipment, and I'm one of them.
Secondly I sence a strange notion of "failure" and using all kinds of "lessons" (Be, Loki etc.) wrongly. To me it almost sound as if you don't know the difference between marketshare (percentage) and installed userbase (absolute numbers). Focusing solely on the former while the latter is the only one that would make sence.
Looking at marketshare is easy to spell failures. BeOS' marketshare about 0% and Linux between 1-5%. That must be failures. But looking at installed userbase, BeOS possibly had something that's easily surpassed something AmigaOS haven't seen in a decade or something. Just look at the number of downloads not speaking of all those coverdisks on magazines.
And Linux, don't make me laugh. It's running in the millions, possible bigger than Amiga ever was. How you manage to get failure out of this is beyond me.
Now, look at the current path for AmigaOS 4.x. Your target is current installed userbase (don't expect any increase in that number) which runs in about 20-40.000 (how many copies did OS 3.9 sell? Less than 20k right?). Now, this number is dramatically reduced to that little fration who would shelve out a lot of doe on some expencive novelty HW and that little fraction you'll have to share with the MorphOS/Pegasos-team. That would optimistically mean a installed userbase between 5-15k for OS4, which is laughable compared BeOS (which you've labeled a failure).
But then again, OS 4 would have a marketshare of about 100% of AmigaOne equipment, and that's success, right? ;)
And 5-15k users? How difficult would that be to surpass for the x86/Amithlon-platform?
And from a pure businessperspective aren't you running the risk of loosing out to a renegade product (AROS/Amithlon)?
I really don't get this x86-angst.
>> Amiga on x86 is THE only way for survival.
> It certainly isn't. Cheap hardware is the
> way for survival regardless of the make of
> CPU and as long as it isn't a machine capable
> of running Windows.
> Hell, even that isn't true. Apple is doing
> fine and their hardware is quite expensive really.
Unless your name is Steve Jobs, running in novelty HW will not get you far. That's a lesson the Amiga-community learned a long time ago; if your locked to a singular platform your fucked!
Be (remember, that's who you keep refering to for learnt lessons) learned that with BeBox, hey even running on niche HW (Macs) will not get you far. Be shifted to x86 to late.
Hey, even Apple have been through a long rough ride almost loosing out.
And lastly I'd like to comment on some of the other stuff you've posted.
1) Trouble at Loki.
Well, duh. Loki have this really insane businessplan of porting month/year old games and releasing it at full prise to a community that long since have finished playing the value/budget release. Sounds familiar?
2) Trouble at Corel.
Yeah, duh! What do you expect? Corel was burning through millions a week and didn't really have anything to sell. No Corel-linux 1.0 wasn't release-materials; Suse, Mandrake, RH and others do it so much better. Hey, Corel-Linux couldn't even be installed on my machine.
3) Trouble at VA-Linux.
Are you really that surprised? VA-Linux are one of those dot-com businessmodels that relies on revenue comming from investors rather than selling products. Guess what happens when there are no more investors?
4) Failure of Linux.
How about a reality check? My guess is that it's the secondlargest desktopOS. Yeah, even larger than MacOS. And no, Linux isn't targeted at Joe User, yet. But it's getting there. As others have pointed out, have you had a look at KDE 2.2.1 recently? It gives me everything OS 3.9 haves to offer and so much more and so much better!
It isn't Windows you should fear, it's Linux. And there noveltyHW wont save you. Linux will get there!
5) Failures of BeOS.
Windows didn't kill BeOS. Be did! With their constant shift in focus (BeBox, Mac, x86, BeIA) everytime leaving user hanging. Lack of driver support. Giving away their primary source of income while betting on BeIA way way to soon.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 114 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 08-Nov-2001 15:36 GMT
>>Do you thing Newtek will do a new lightwave for an x86 Amiga ?
>>No way they would just say "use our Windows version".
>PPC version...
I just remembered those screamer -render farms for the Amiga version of Lightwave.
Is it possible to use some older 68k lightwave with some (hopefully)existing x86 scremer SW? Perhaps the creamer SW is opensource nowdays???
How about recompiling such renderer for native x86 code in Amithlon... perhaps it could be run in parallel with the 68k version of lightwave.
(same could work with MorphOS and AmigaOS4 as well, perhaps even with WarpUP/PowerUP)
Yeah, I got weird ideas, I always do....
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 115 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 15:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Graham):
I agree with you totally. Amiga (and any OS-maker out there) needs to tab into the OSS-community to expect any kind of success.
It gives you "instant" access to a vast amount of software. Software it would take a lot of money to develop.
As for the desktop. Go with KDE! ;) Konqueror is one great browser, kmail rocks and KOffice is really really nice! ;)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 116 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 15:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
"ut if an Amiga is your main system, you probably
prefer to buy Amiga software instead of Windows equivalents. Would that still be so
if you had Windows and AmigaOS both installed on the same system, just a reboot away
from eachother? Given the pricing and availability of Windows software, I don't
think so. And as for those of us who don't even have a Windows based system (I'm
one of them), we certainly would get Windows if it ran on the same hardware. Would
we buy less Amiga software? Probably."
ROFL... you must be joking.
It's exactly the same for somehow who has a PC next to his Amiga. Those people can actually run Windows _simultaneously_ !!!
These arguments are hilarious.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 117 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 15:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 109 (Brecht):
>>AmigaOS 4.0 has just more chance to expand starting on a specific hardware platform.
>That's the most utter crap I've yet heard.
PPC is a dead end. Noone will buy an expensive PPC motherboard that runs only AmigaOS, except for die-hard Amiga fans.
Thank you for the crap comment.
For my part I don't agree with you ;)
It is better to have committed die-hard Amiga fans as userbase then having hobbyist emulator users that want to use everything for free.
I know a lot of ex Amiga users that would buy a new PPC motherboard to get rid of their PCs they bought one or 2 years ago.
The upgrade won't be expensive as they can keep their HD/DVD, RAM, case, some of the PCI and AGP cards.
If you are not ready to invest in Amiga go in the linux world. You will find a lot of free software.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 118 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 15:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 74 (windtalkers):
BeOS was given away because they shifted their focus to BeIA, expecting it to generate the revenue while BeOS would be the development platform for BeIA (kinda like what QNX is doing).
The failure? Be focusshift was premature, world wasn't and still isn't ready for internet appliences. So no income.
Be played a highrisk game and lost.
Be might still be alive as an OS-vendor if it hadn't released BeOS for free or at least had secured some sort of revenue before doing so.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 119 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Alan Watson on 08-Nov-2001 15:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (Brecht):
Use PowerWindows.It does this already.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 120 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Steve Brightman on 08-Nov-2001 16:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
Just an opinion, but I think you're wrong here.
>Oh and finally, AmigaOS PPC versus x86, which I didn't originally comment on at
all...I think that PPC is the way to go for now. Now, before people start a long
patronizing ramble about price/performance and the availability advanages of X86:
I know that. We all do. It's not the point. The point is, AmigaOS running in
parallell with Windows would be competing more directly with Windows. Sure, a lot
of you have x86 boxes by now. But if an Amiga is your main system, you probably
prefer to buy Amiga software instead of Windows equivalents. Would that still be so
if you had Windows and AmigaOS both installed on the same system, just a reboot away <
Yes I would. I'm much happier working in an Amiga environment. I have the PC and Amiga side by side, but only use Winbloze when I HAVE to.
> from eachother? Given the pricing and availability of Windows software, I don't
think so. And as for those of us who don't even have a Windows based system (I'm
one of them), we certainly would get Windows if it ran on the same hardware. Would
we buy less Amiga software? Probably. So Amiga software development would take a
hit. As would retail. Then there is hardware. AmigaOS x86 is the end of custom
Amiga hardware development. Now, this might be a good thing or a bad thing depends on
your viewpoint, but I'll tell you this much: It WILL harm retail. <
Personally I'd buy custom hardware for whatever new OS we end up with. But the masses won't.
Winbloze is a sort of crutch for them, lots of FUD about buying a system that cannot run winbloze.
Gates has them all brainwashed. I know quite a few people who won't even buy MACs for just this reason (which is funny 'cos there's lots of GOOF reasons not to buy a Mac <g>)
Put Amiga side by side with winbloze on the same hardware and let the best OS win. Let the masses experience Amiga "risk free", I'm pretty confident I know what they'll choose.
Maybe you do serve a "protected" market for a while on some customised hardware, but if you want sales success you're going to have to meet winbloze head on, on the same hardware.
It's way too late to think you are going to convince the world that whatever Amiga-specific hardware you offer up is better than Wintel. Although in the longer term you just might, but after you've won the OS battle.
BTW, I have no axe to grind, I don't care what's under the hood, I'm an Amiga User.
Thank you,
Steve
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 121 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 08-Nov-2001 16:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 116 (Brecht):
>ROFL... you must be joking.
>It's exactly the same for somehow who has a PC next to his Amiga. Those people can actually run Windows _simultaneously_ !!!
-
They sure can, if it is convenient for them to have two full computer systems up and
running at the same time. It wouldn't be for me. And for those of us who don't own or
don't regularly use a PC, my point still goes.
-
>These arguments are hilarious.
-
Nice attitude, I respect you too.
-
Kay
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 122 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 16:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 112 (Christophe Decanini):
>>You somehow 'forgot' to explain MacOS.
>Because I don't think that it will compete with a PPC AmigaOS because it won't be easyly installable on an AmigaOne or Pegasos.
Fusion.
It's as easy running MacOS in Fusion as it is to dual-boot an x86 system.
>>>3) New PPC CPU's can emulate PC's at full speed, so basically, PPC will also run Windows.
>>But it won't be installed on every machine.
>>Same for Amithlon systems. I've seen several people on the Amithlon ML that >bought a dedicated x86 box for Amithlon.
>This are Amiga customers lost for Amiga dealers. It confirms what I said before: How these UAE /Amithlon users really contribute ($$$) to the Amiga development ?
And buying software isn't contributing?
Smells like communism. Why not let people use what they want to use? If there was no UAE/Amithlon, do you really think I would buy an AmigaOne?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 123 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 08-Nov-2001 16:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 120 (Steve Brightman):
>Just an opinion, but I think you're wrong here.
-
Fair enough, polite and reasoned disagreement is a refreshing change in here...
-
>Yes I would. I'm much happier working in an Amiga environment. I have the PC and Amiga side by side, but only use Winbloze when I HAVE to.
-
Well, this is true for a lot of us, of course. However, would I have bought Shogo for Amiga if I had a Windows machine, or Windows on the same machine as my Amiga? Maybe, but probably not. In some cases, people would buy Amiga software, but I still think that the net result would be that more of us bought the Windows versions/equivalents. Of course there is the ideal situation that a larger userbase could make up for the extra competition...but I don't think that will happen.
-
>Put Amiga side by side with winbloze on the same hardware and let the best OS
>win. Let the masses experience Amiga "risk free", I'm pretty confident I know
>what they'll choose.
-
Well, that would be nice, but my faith in the masses is not too strong...
-
>Maybe you do serve a "protected" market for a while on some customised hardware,
>but if you want sales success you're going to have to meet winbloze head on,
>on the same hardware.
-
Well, I think we need to strengthen software development before we face Windows
head on. That's why I hope the AmigaONE can attract some ex-Amigans and geeks back
to the platform.
-
>BTW, I have no axe to grind, I don't care what's under the hood, I'm an Amiga User.
-
:-) No problem, I respect your opinion, and agree with your ideals.
-
Kay
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 124 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 16:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 117 (Christophe Decanini):
>Thank you for the crap comment.
Sorry :)
>I know a lot of ex Amiga users that would buy a new PPC motherboard to get rid of their PCs they bought one or 2 years ago.
Alot? And they've been waiting for what, 8 months now?
>If you are not ready to invest in Amiga go in the linux world. You will find a lot of free software.
Who said I'm not ready to *invest* in Amiga? I want to buy software, just not overpriced & doomed hardware. And it's not much of an investment if I can't see a future in it.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 125 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Vidar Langberget on 08-Nov-2001 16:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 82 (Graham):
smithy and graham:
With a custom x86 solution, I don't mean that the Amiga HW companies should design a new motherboard or something. Making an existing PC motherboard able to only run AmigaOS doesn't need to be expensive.
By having a custom x86 motherboard, you get most of the benefits from the x86 platform, but at the same time the developers and dealers are more "protected".
regards,
Vidar
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 126 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 16:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (Alan Watson):
I am, but as I said, it's still a dirty hack.
But not everyone (dares to :) run powerwindows, so a developer cannot depend on it.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 127 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 08-Nov-2001 16:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (Mekanix):
Posted by Mekanix
>But all this really doesn't matter, because your Windowsassumption is just
>plain wrong. A huge amount of people are *not* running Windows on their
>x86 equipment, and I'm one of them.
I agree, I also know a few such people.
>Now, look at the current path for AmigaOS 4.x. Your target is current
>installed userbase (don't expect any increase in that number) which
>runs in about 20-40.000 (how many copies did OS 3.9 sell? Less than 20k
>right?). Now, this number is dramatically reduced to that little fration
>who would shelve out a lot of doe on some expencive novelty HW and that
>little fraction you'll have to share with the MorphOS/Pegasos-team. That
>would optimistically mean a installed userbase between 5-15k for OS4,
>which is laughable compared BeOS (which you've labeled a failure).
That was not fair! ;)
OS4 does not yet exist. No-one knows how much it will sell, or how much pegasos will sell.
I agree that dooming something as failure is RISKY business!
(IMO: Linux has not failed. Apple is on the limit.)
>And 5-15k users? How difficult would that be to surpass for the x86/Amithlon-platform?
I personally hope success for both, as well as for MorphOS niche.
>>> Amiga on x86 is THE only way for survival.
>> It certainly isn't. Cheap hardware is the
>> way for survival regardless of the make of
>> CPU and as long as it isn't a machine capable
>> of running Windows.
hmmm, weird.
IMO:
-cheap HW helps a lot (no matter of the CPU)
-windows dualbooting/hosting will not help the sales of ported games
-custom Amiga HW might help the sales of PORTED games
-windows/office compatibility helps
-application/game availability is the main key to success
(While it is difficult to develop high tech HW for huge mass market in competitive prices (PC motherboard quality varies a lot), it is not easy to produce cheap HW for niche market. --> i expect a lot of bugs in pegasos motherboard, while simpler AmigaOne1200 might be less buggy and cheaper to produce)
>Be (remember, that's who you keep refering to for learnt lessons) learned that
>with BeBox, hey even running on niche HW (Macs) will not get you far. Be
>shifted to x86 to late.
IMO: dualbooting was wrong choise.
>1) Trouble at Loki.
>Well, duh. Loki have this really insane businessplan of porting month/year
>old games and releasing it at full prise to a community that long since
>have finished playing the value/budget release. Sounds familiar?
So you dislike ported games.
I want them!
And I'm pretty sure that Loki did not have many choices, they had to pay licenses and development costs from a lot smaller sales than windows game had.
>4) Failure of Linux.
>How about a reality check? My guess is that it's the secondlargest desktopOS.
>Yeah, even larger than MacOS. And no, Linux isn't targeted at Joe User, yet.
I agree on that linux is proceeding.
I've sen some around here, in OFFICE use.
(btw. I also see more and more PowerMacs...)
>But it's getting there. As others have pointed out, have you had a look at
>KDE 2.2.1 recently? It gives me everything OS 3.9 haves to offer and so
>much more and so much better!
Argh. IMPOSSIBLE Amiga OS is the best. ;)
(really, I need to test that one)
>It isn't Windows you should fear, it's Linux. And there noveltyHW
>wont save you. Linux will get there!
Time will tell what happens.
At least Linux is furter in "there" (desktop&office) than Amiga currently is.
>5) Failures of BeOS.
>Windows didn't kill BeOS. Be did! With their constant shift in focus
>(BeBox, Mac, x86, BeIA) everytime leaving user hanging. Lack of
>driver support. Giving away their primary source of income while
>betting on BeIA way way to soon.
I partly agree. I agree on the lack of focus. But the windows affect was also there, also there was apple's affect, for example when they killed PPC clones.
**************
>>>3) New PPC CPU's can emulate PC's at full speed, so basically, PPC will also run Windows.
>>But it won't be installed on every machine.
And native PPC is at least 4x faster than P3 emulated by the same PPC.
Amithlon will not be that much faster than windoze and windoze always get Nvidia (3D) drivers, while Amithlon might never get those.
**************
Me, I and myself ... more of IMO, I mean:
- I own Duron800 with W98, my wife uses it, I do not prefer it over my Amiga. I will be running the SDK on it, though, until SDK appears for AmigaOS.
- I buy 68k Amiga SW. Like OS3.9, Netconnect3, makeCD, CGX4.1, Easys, Photofolio, Napalm, Foundation, (and soon) Exodus, Earth2150, ImageFX and Pagestream4.1. U C I'm glad to pay for all the FUN I've had with Amiga and for all the fun I will have, previously I could not afford paying (I had FUN though). I will most likely buy also Amithlon (but only after the SDK runs on it). And I will always continue buying Amiga apps, as long as "Amiga" is the Amiga I like. I do not care if some game has appeared earlier on PC, I will buy it for Amiga anyway, I really WANT GP2 for Amiga !!!! ;)
- But I think there are a lot of Amigans that are not as loyal.
- Still, I'm not 100% confident that Hyperion's theory is correct about the lethalty of x86 Amiga. Perhaps they should try to sell Warp3D for Amithlon users, just to check if they are willing to pay for it. If they are, they might even buy Hyperions latest 68k game Descent Freespace ... 8) I would.
Blah... I must have not made any sense in that ... now where's the "Add Comment" -button....
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 128 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 16:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 123 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
>>These arguments are hilarious.
>Nice attitude, I respect you too.
Sorry, that's just the way I feel. I think all the anti-x86 arguments have more holes in them than Swiss cheese.
>Well, I think we need to strengthen software development before we face Windows head on. That's why I hope the AmigaONE can attract some ex-Amigans and geeks back to the platform.
It won't. An x86 AmigaOS would.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 129 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 08-Nov-2001 16:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 128 (Brecht):
>>That's why I hope the AmigaONE can attract some ex-Amigans and geeks back to the platform.
>It won't. An x86 AmigaOS would.
IMO: They both (AmigaOne and Amithlon) will.
AmigaOne attracts some geeks who just want to try something different.
And I know a lot of people who use x86 until they get their Amiga HW repaired / replaced.
On the other hand 90% of Windows(only) users would touch AmigaOS only if it runs on their existing platform or on another Windows compatible.
With PPC AmigaOS (AND MorphOS), AmigaDE and finally with OS5 about all needs get stisfied. ;)
(let's just not TRY to do everything at once, remember Be and the lack of focus...)
So, EVERYBODY, stop arguing and be creative and supportive. PLEAASE!
There's a lot of things to do, help to arm the troops, we have a common enemies.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 130 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 17:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 129 (priest):
>AmigaOne attracts some geeks who just want to try something different.
Very few super-geeks maybe.
>And I know a lot of people who use x86 until they get their Amiga HW repaired / replaced.
Well, you can dream...
>With PPC AmigaOS (AND MorphOS), AmigaDE and finally with OS5 about all needs get stisfied. ;)
OS5 has a long way to come.
>So, EVERYBODY, stop arguing and be creative and supportive. PLEAASE!
There's a lot of things to do, help to arm the troops, we have a common enemies.
The only enemy is the idiocy of the people running the Amiga market (note that I didn't mention any names! :) It's not MS who is to blame for the current status of the Amiga market.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 131 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 17:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 122 (Brecht):
>Fusion.
>It's as easy running MacOS in Fusion as it is to dual-boot an x86 system.
No it is not you have to pay for Fusion, Windows come with your PCs.
>And buying software isn't contributing?
Having an Amiga shop I can say that we have 0,0x % of sales done through UAE users.
>Smells like communism. Why not let people use what they want to use? If there
Smells like choices in life: for example if you want windows you have to buy X86.
>was no UAE/Amithlon, do you really think I would buy an AmigaOne?
Not you but I know some people puting a lot of $$$ in a PC now to have the ultimate Amiga with Amithlon. They wont buy an AmigaOne or Pegasos soon as they already spent their money ...
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 132 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 17:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Brecht):
>Who said I'm not ready to *invest* in Amiga? I want to buy software, just not >overpriced & doomed hardware. And it's not much of an investment if I can't >see a future in it.
Hardware is the major income from Amiga dealers and company.
Without Phase5 Amiga would be nonexistant anymore.
Why do you think MorphOS team and Eyetech plan to adopt a custom PPC hardware ?
They could have done the same thing on x86 but they have to cover the OS development on the hardware. If you buy the hardware you contribute to further Amiga development that will increase sales of other software companies. If you just buy the software the hardware platform dies, the dealers too and then software company start to go on Win and Mac.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 133 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 17:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 132 (Christophe Decanini):
>>Fusion. It's as easy running MacOS in Fusion as it is to dual-boot an x86 system.
>No it is not you have to pay for Fusion, Windows come with your PCs.
And you have to pay for Amiga software, Windows software, and Amithlon. It makes no difference. The point is that people will run windows if they need to and 'it'll make them completely convert to windows', according to mr Hermans.
>>And buying software isn't contributing?
>Having an Amiga shop I can say that we have 0,0x % of sales done through UAE users.
So you know the setup of each and every customer? Wow, looks like the market *did* shrink alot.
>>Smells like communism. Why not let people use what they want to use? If there
>Smells like choices in life: for example if you want windows you have to buy X86.
That would be a good argument if Windows wasn't the most widely used OS, and AmigaOS was.
And, you can run Windows on a ppc system too, because the ultra-fast ppc chips swipe the floor with the x86 and can emulate them at blazingly fast speeds.
>>was no UAE/Amithlon, do you really think I would buy an AmigaOne?
>Not you but I know some people puting a lot of $$$ in a PC now to have the ultimate Amiga with Amithlon. They wont buy an AmigaOne or Pegasos soon as they already spent their money ...
Only goes to prove my point that people want an alternative to the overexpensive custom hardware (I never said PPC should be dropped in favor of x86, x86 should co-exist).
>>Who said I'm not ready to *invest* in Amiga? I want to buy software, just not >overpriced & doomed hardware. And it's not much of an investment if I can't >see a future in it.
>Hardware is the major income from Amiga dealers and company.
Without Phase5 Amiga would be nonexistant anymore.
Phase5 itself is nonexistant anymore. How will HW manufacturers be able to survive now that the market will split (AmigaOS/MorphOS), when they hardly have been able to do so before? Sorry for them, but it's reality.
Amiga is no longer about hardware.
>Why do you think MorphOS team and Eyetech plan to adopt a custom PPC hardware ? They could have done the same thing on x86 but they have to cover the OS development on the hardware. If you buy the hardware you contribute to further Amiga development that will increase sales of other software companies. If you just buy the software the hardware platform dies, the dealers too and then software company start to go on Win and Mac.
Too bad not enough people care about the poor Amiga HW and SW companies to feed them :/ Business is business, not charity.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 134 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ruben Monteiro on 08-Nov-2001 18:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 133 (Brecht):
>And, you can run Windows on a ppc system too, because the ultra-fast ppc chips
Is this implemented already? Can one easily install Windows on a PPC system?
>overexpensive custom hardware (I never said PPC should be dropped in favor of >x86, x86 should co-exist).
That would be very nice, but I'm not sure Amiga has the capability to come up with 2 versions of the OS. Maybe by supporting Amithlon/AROS for the x86 solution and morphOS for the PPC one. It may be utopic, however (specially the morphOS thing).
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 135 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 18:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (Ruben Monteiro):
>>And, you can run Windows on a ppc system too, because the ultra-fast ppc chips
>Is this implemented already? Can one easily install Windows on a PPC system?
It was true wit NT4 on some Motorola and IBM PPC machines that were sell as solutions (could not find them in stores)
>overexpensive custom hardware (I never said PPC should be dropped in favor of >x86, x86 should co-exist).
>That would be very nice, but I'm not sure Amiga has the capability to come up >with 2 versions of the OS. Maybe by supporting Amithlon/AROS for the x86 >solution and morphOS for the PPC one. It may be utopic, however (specially the >morphOS thing).
The x86 is much more utopic when you know that most of the Amiga companies would stop Amiga development if going to x86.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 136 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 18:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (Ruben Monteiro):
>>And, you can run Windows on a ppc system too, because the ultra-fast ppc chips
>Is this implemented already? Can one easily install Windows on a PPC system?
See, we already have someone who is interested :)
PCTask/PCX/bochs for PPC or maybe even VirtualPC via Fusion(no real speed drop because of emulation).
>>overexpensive custom hardware (I never said PPC should be dropped in favor of x86, x86 should co-exist).
>That would be very nice, but I'm not sure Amiga has the capability to come up with 2 versions of the OS. Maybe by supporting Amithlon/AROS for the x86 solution and morphOS for the PPC one. It may be utopic, however (specially the morphOS thing).
I ask no more (personally).
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 137 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ruben Monteiro on 08-Nov-2001 18:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Fabio Alemagna):
>What stop potential customers of your PPC >related products from buying x86 >retalet products for their x86 machines or from buying x86 machines at all? >How can you belieeve that sticking with PPC will not make you compete with >Windows?
Exactly! You are ALWAYS competing with Windows, you can't run away. Worse: By going PPC you're not only competing with Windows, you'll be doing so in exotic hardware that only some people know what it is (I've seen more than one person thinking that "Power PC" is some sort of power supply for your PC!! ), that's not available anywhere.
How will I buy an AmigaOne in my country in the first place? Do I have to mail order it?? What if the hardware fails? I don't think I can go to any PC shop to have it repaired, do I? What about upgrades, where can I find new PPC processors for the board?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 138 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Michael Garlich on 08-Nov-2001 18:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 131 (Christophe Decanini):
>Having an Amiga shop I can say that we have 0,0x % of sales done through UAE users.
exactly absolutely no additional sales only more downloads on "free" software pages.
Be sure if Amiga goes to x86 it dies faster as you can spell PC. Noone of the remaining Amiga software houses wants to compete on Windoze homebase. Linux failt, Be failt and all others too.
No wonder that Apple still counts on their PPCComputer and have dropped their MaxOS 10 x86 plans.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 139 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 18:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (priest):
> OS4 does not yet exist. No-one knows
> how much it will sell, or how much
> pegasos will sell.
No, but we do know how big the market is. Look at the latest salesfigures of OS 3.5/3.9, don't expect sales to exceed that. No, expect it to be significantly less.
The illusion that OS4.x would make someone convert *to* Amiga is just absurd. Someone outside the community might buy OS4.x for their x86 box (if it were released) out of curiosity or for nostalgic reason. But buying new HW? Forget it.
> So you dislike ported games.
> I want them!
I've got nothing against ported games. But hey, why would I go out and pay full price for a game, when everyone have stopped playing it and I can get the original at a discount at every store?
Example, by the time Loki *announced* they'd port Deus Ex I've already completed the game. If Loki had released their port within 1-2 month after the official release I most certainly would have bought the Loki-port.
> And I'm pretty sure that Loki did
> not have many choices, they had to
> pay licenses and development costs
> from a lot smaller sales than windows
> game had.
If Loki (and Hyperion) wants to stay in business, they'd need to get in touch and get licenses long befor official releases so that ports will not lack behind.
> IMO: dualbooting was wrong choise.
Multibooting is great. You can't get around that most people would want or need to boot Windows. Putting the user into a either MyOS or Windows most will choose Windows. With multibooting you're still in the game.
And that's a fairer choice, letting the *user* choose. By doing the choice for the user, you are just doing what we hate MS of doing.
> Perhaps they should try to sell Warp3D for
> Amithlon users, just to check if they are
> willing to pay for it. If they are, they might
> even buy Hyperions latest 68k game Descent Freespace
> ... 8) I would.
I wouldn't. Descent Freespace might be a golden oldie, but it's still not antique enough to warrent a full price. And as long as it's only old games utilizing Warp3D I really don't see any use for it.
... unless. Does SDL utilize Warp3D?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 140 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 18:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 135 (Christophe Decanini):
>The x86 is much more utopic when you know that most of the Amiga companies would stop Amiga development if going to x86.
Who actually said they would stop developing for AmigaOS if there would be an x86 AmigaOS next to the PPC one? If so, why didn't they say anything about AMigaOS5 wich would also run on x86?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 141 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ruben Monteiro on 08-Nov-2001 18:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 135 (Christophe Decanini):
>The x86 is much more utopic when you know that most of the Amiga companies >would stop Amiga development if going to x86.
I don't understand why they should. They would have more users (lots more in the longer term if Amiga do things right). Doesn't a larger user base mean more business?
And please don't tell me that people would prefer the Windows software, because running on PPC is no solution to that since most of us would have our x86 box next to the AmigaOne, and we can buy the Windows software just the same.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 142 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 18:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 133 (Brecht):
>>No it is not you have to pay for Fusion, Windows come with your PCs.
>And you have to pay for Amiga software, Windows software, and Amithlon. It >makes no difference. The point is that people will run windows if they need to >and 'it'll make them completely convert to windows', according to mr Hermans.
Today you could say that anyone can run MACOS on their PPC Amiga. But it is not as easy as running Windows on a PC:
It is expensive
It lacks a lot of feature comparing to a real mac.
It does not run OSX
>>And buying software isn't contributing?
>Having an Amiga shop I can say that we have 0,0x % of sales done through UAE users.
>So you know the setup of each and every customer? Wow, looks like the market *did* shrink alot.
Customers like to speak about their config. You immediately know what kind of Amiga they have depending on their orders.
>>Smells like communism. Why not let people use what they want to use? If there
>Smells like choices in life: for example if you want windows you have to buy X86.
>That would be a good argument if Windows wasn't the most widely used OS, and AmigaOS was.
Is this fascism ? Only one race of OS ?
>And, you can run Windows on a ppc system too, because the ultra-fast ppc chips swipe the floor with the x86 and can emulate them at blazingly fast speeds.
This is not the point. The point is that you bought a PC and you think the PC should do everything. This is not a lack of liberty if you can not run AmigaOS 4.0 on a PC. It makes sense to run AmigaOS on an Amiga.
>>was no UAE/Amithlon, do you really think I would buy an AmigaOne?
>Not you but I know some people puting a lot of $$$ in a PC now to have the ultimate Amiga with Amithlon. They wont buy an AmigaOne or Pegasos soon as they already spent their money ...
>Only goes to prove my point that people want an alternative to the >overexpensive custom hardware (I never said PPC should be dropped in favor of x86, x86 should co-exist).
Only prove my point that too be successfull you need a good hardware base. The hardware on Amiga is now too much outdated. This could change with an affordable AmigaOne / Pegasos
>>Who said I'm not ready to *invest* in Amiga? I want to buy software, just not >overpriced & doomed hardware. And it's not much of an investment if I can't >see a future in it.
>Hardware is the major income from Amiga dealers and company.
Without Phase5 Amiga would be nonexistant anymore.
>Phase5 itself is nonexistant anymore. How will HW manufacturers be able to >survive now that the market will split (AmigaOS/MorphOS), when they hardly >have been able to do so before? Sorry for them, but it's reality.
>Amiga is no longer about hardware.
Phase 5 legacy went to DCE and Phase 5 engineers went into Bplan. They are two companies that are big for the Amiga future.
>>Why do you think MorphOS team and Eyetech plan to adopt a custom PPC hardware ? They could have done the same thing on x86 but they have to cover the OS development on the hardware. If you buy the hardware you contribute to further Amiga development that will increase sales of other software companies. If you just buy the software the hardware platform dies, the dealers too and then software company start to go on Win and Mac.
>Too bad not enough people care about the poor Amiga HW and SW companies to feed them :/ Business is business, not charity.
This is about business not charity. I prefer to pay for Amiga development than to pay for windows drivers and new x86 dev. I don't pay just for the sake of paying: I'am using the products and I enjoy it.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 143 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 08-Nov-2001 18:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 109 (Brecht):
>That's the most utter crap I've yet heard.
>PPC is a dead end. Noone will buy an expensive PPC motherboard that runs only >AmigaOS, except for die-hard Amiga fans.
That is an utter crap statement, sorry. Look how successful Mac has been lately. And NO MacOS is not available for X86. I think many former Amiga users will return when there is a totally new machine available.
PPC deadend? puhleaze.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 144 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 19:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 142 (Christophe Decanini):
>Today you could say that anyone can run MACOS on their PPC Amiga. But it is not as easy as running Windows on a PC:
>It is expensive
Amithlon is expensive too, plus it takes some skill to set up a multi-booting system.
>It lacks a lot of feature comparing to a real mac.
Like? The gay case perhaps? :)
>It does not run OSX
Why wouldn't a PPC Mac emu run OSX?
>Customers like to speak about their config. You immediately know what kind of Amiga they have depending on their orders.
Orders? Like online ordering?
>>>Smells like communism. Why not let people use what they want to use? If there
>>Smells like choices in life: for example if you want windows you have to buy X86.
>>That would be a good argument if Windows wasn't the most widely used OS, and AmigaOS was.
>Is this fascism ? Only one race of OS ?
I don't quite follow you here ("only one race of OS")?
>This is not the point. The point is that you bought a PC and you think the PC should do everything. This is not a lack of liberty if you can not run AmigaOS 4.0 on a PC. It makes sense to run AmigaOS on an Amiga.
Some of us just like the idea of being able to use several OS's on one machine. Sure, it makes sense to run AmigaOS on an Amiga, but it's not very sensible to *only* have AmigaOS for Amiga hardware at this moment.
>Only prove my point that too be successfull you need a good hardware base. The hardware on Amiga is now too much outdated. This could change with an affordable AmigaOne / Pegasos.
The hardware might be good, but the price isn't right, and it will not attract new users.
>Phase 5 legacy went to DCE and Phase 5 engineers went into Bplan. They are two companies that are big for the Amiga future.
Still, Phase5 went bankrupt. It's sad to see manufacturers take pre-orders for every peice of hardware, that may or not make it to the 'shelves' of mail-order dealers.
I appreciate all the hard work they have done/do, but I simply don't believe in a future if we stick to PPC.
>This is about business not charity. I prefer to pay for Amiga development than to pay for windows drivers and new x86 dev. I don't pay just for the sake of paying: I'am using the products and I enjoy it.
Same goes for x86, except that there is possibility to growth.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 145 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 19:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (redrumloa):
I agree. History showed that successfull OS are the one delivered with the hardware.
Why is Windows so famous ? How much % of PCs use Windows as a desktop OS ?
Why MacOS is so famous on Macintosh ?
Why Solaris on Sun ?
...
Some people can say that Linux is famous on the PC. Yes famous as an alternative but it is far from being use widely as a desktop OS.
I don't see any OS that could endanger Windows on x86.
That very sad but it is a true reality.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 146 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Casey R Williams on 08-Nov-2001 19:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
Mmm... BeOS is a success in that it's widely regarded as being one of the best multimedia OSes, and it still has it's rabid fanatics trying to keep it alive... And I know far more Linux users than of any other non-Windows OS since Win became the "standard". As for QNX, I think it's hard to look at those guys and say they've failed even if we aren't all using QNX now as Gatemiga was trying to have us believe we would be. I mean they still sell an OS after all of these years in which so many have fallen by the way. You seem to think that several OSes are failures which are currently used by more people than 68k AmigaOS. So, is Amiga OS a failure?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 147 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 19:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 144 (Brecht):
@Brecht
This is an endless discussion. I accept that you have another point of view.
Just think about being Hyperion, MorphOS, Bplan, Elbox, an Amiga dealer ... and you will understand mine.
Perhaps a new Amiga won't be affordable for some people but at least we could revive a lot of ex Amigans and also interesting people looking for alternatives.
X86 is the end of any commercial development for AmigaOS.
We will see how AmigaOS 4, MorphOS, AROS, Amithlon, AmigaDE (what a split !) evolves and we will have better conclusions.
Perhaps this split is necessary to avoid the end of the Amiga if one fails.
If everything fails we will have to find out if we can use bloatware or if we have to stick with another OS.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 148 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 08-Nov-2001 19:33 GMT
Please stop all this, people.
That's it. The talking is done. Hyperion have drawn the line, cast the die, or whatever metaphor you want to use. AmigaOS 4.0 will NOT run on any x86 system, and there will be no x86 AmigaOS for the foreseeable future.
This simply means developers will have to choose:
AmigaOS 4.0/PPC only
68k/everything
Amithlon/x86
It doesn't matter who says what. The decision is made and we all have to deal with it. Any splits will be the responsibility of Hyperion/Amiga Inc, but they were aware of that when the decision was made. It also means that any advances available to Amithlon users will not be available to AmigaOS users.
So we have another split. Big deal.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 149 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Bring back Tim Rue all is forgiven! on 08-Nov-2001 19:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 148 (Bill Hoggett):
Bill
I dont see a lot of rational thinking or posting in the "community" at the moment. Theres too much
"1 implies 5" and "its right because I say it/think it". With all the bursting blood vessels around here
and testosterone overloads on moobunny Ill be shocked if there is anyone left to buy anythig soon!
I dunno, we give these whippersnappers freedom of speech and see how they use it ... in my day < mumble mumble > ;-)
Regards,
Dave ( who is missing his killfile )
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 150 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 19:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 145 (Christophe Decanini):
> I agree. History showed that successfull
> OS are the one delivered with the hardware.
Like... Atari? ... Amiga? ... BeBox?
Guess we are not reading the same historybooks...
> Why is Windows so famous?
Abused monopoly that goes way beyond x86.
> How much 0f PCs use Windows as a desktop OS ?
Less than 90-95%.
The question you have to ask is: How many PC's user an alternative OS as desktop? My bet is that any in that top 10 beats AmigaOS in installed userbase. In other words, you *can* have a large userbase on a Windows-dominated platform. But you will not own the platform (ie. have 100%), but 0,001% is still *huge*.
> Some people can say that Linux is famous on
> the PC. Yes famous as an alternative but it
> is far from being use widely as a desktop OS.
But still there is far more Linux-users than AmigaOS-users.
> I don't see any OS that could endanger
> Windows on x86. That very sad but it
> is a true reality.
And that is *exactly* where the problem is buried. No OS on *any* platform will endanger Windows in the forseeable future. It's apparent that many in this community suffers from at delusion that AmigaOS (on PPC) will be able to take on Microsoft. Get over it, i will never happen. The community isn't likely to expand, and any expansion that might happen will not happen on novelty HW.
AmigaOS is a niche OS, isn't a threat to Windows or any others. Just give the community the OS the cheapes possible way, x86.
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