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[News] Interview with Ben Hermans from HyperionANN.lu
Posted on 07-Nov-2001 20:45 GMT by Christophe Decanini194 comments
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Christoph Gutjahr interviewed Hyperion about AmigaOS 4.0. You can read the interview on amiga-news.de in English or in German.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 151 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 08-Nov-2001 20:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 117 (Christophe Decanini):
>If you are not ready to invest in Amiga go in the linux world. You will find a
>lot of free software.
Yes. Linux users have a choice to use x86 if they want to. Shame some want to refuse AmigaOS users the same choice at all costs. So these AmigaOS users are then pushed into UAE and Amithlon and become 'hobbyists'. Simply because they don't agree with you then they should be pushed out of the equation and deemed irrelevant? As an active AmigaOS user who just happens to run it on virtual hardware I have still spent a fair amount of cash on Amiga software this year - most of it very old software. I'd imagine many others are in the same situation. For you to generalise about this large group of people without any evidence is very insulting.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 152 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 20:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 148 (Bill Hoggett):
> AmigaOS 4.0/PPC only
> 68k/everything
> Amithlon/x86
You forgot MorphOS.
> So we have another split. Big deal.
Actually it is a big deal. The community as it is now is hardly big enough to support one OS-development. Remember that OS 3.5/3.9 sales almost wasn't big enough to justify further development.
Now this community is going to be split 4-ways. That would mean that at least one party (either MorphOS or AmigaOS 4) will end up as looser and vanish, possible both.
If AROS and Amithlon joins forces it will possible outlive both MorphOS and AmigaOS since AROS in its nature doesn't require money or a large userbase. Furthermore AROS/Amithlon would be strenghtened by the many splits, since developers would be better of supporting 68k, which would reach all paths. Which again would strangle AmigaOS 4/MorphOS even further because there really wouldn't be much sence in buying those expensive solutions. So you wont have anything to sell anyway....
Hyperion/Amiga Inc. have really made a bad business decision here.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 153 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Fabian Jimenez on 08-Nov-2001 20:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Graham):
Interesting stuff... however the failure of BeOS is being wrongly attributed to moving from PPC to X86. What doomed Be was incompetent management. Sure they would never be as big as Microsoft, but they were making inroads and carving a niche. What "killed" Be in the end is when they had yet another change in plans and emphasized "Internet Appliances" using BeIA, not BeOS.
Had they continued to push BeOS, they may have stayed in business.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 154 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 20:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (Mekanix):
"So you wont have anything to sell anyway...."
This sentence really doesn't make much sence... forgot who I was replying to! ;)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 155 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 08-Nov-2001 20:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (Mekanix):
>You forgot MorphOS.
No, I didn't. Mentioning the unmentionable tends to bring out the trolls, though, and I'm too fed up deal with them.
>Actually it is a big deal. The community as it is now is
>hardly big enough to support one OS-development. Remember
>that OS 3.5/3.9 sales almost wasn't big enough to justify
>further development.
You can't be protective for ever. All that happens is that the strain gets weaker and more sickly as time passes. Sometimes a nice deadly plague gets rid of the weaklings, even if that is an analogy that won't go down well with some people.
>Now this community is going to be split 4-ways. That
>would mean that at least one party (either MorphOS
>or AmigaOS 4) will end up as looser and vanish, possible
>both.
Tough. They all had the opportunity to get together and hammer out some common ground, but they've spurned it. Let them reap what they sow.
Actually Amithlon is NOT strengthened by the splits, because Amithlon is ideally suited for 68k programs with x86 modules, which would have allowed for parallel development. However, the Hyperion decision makes hybrid programs a waste of time, and I expect this will generate more x86 only programs rather than less. Like I said, who cares?
>Hyperion/Amiga Inc. have really made a bad business
>decision here.
If they have, they'll suffer for it. Maybe they haven't, and will be immensely successful becoming the new Microsoft or even Apple. I'm past caring, and only intend concentrating on the option best for me. What they do is not my concern.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 156 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mr.Return on 08-Nov-2001 20:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 148 (Bill Hoggett):
Bill, you are missing a point:
All progress of OS4.x will be unavailable for x86-users, even if it would be possible to add PPC-emulation you will have serious licensing problems.
But it will be no problem to add support for x86-stuff into the OS 4 kernel, although I doubt it will be ever necessary.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 157 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 21:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 155 (Bill Hoggett):
> Actually Amithlon is NOT strengthened by the splits,
If softwaredevelopers in "only" going to support 68k so to reach all parties, which platform would be more viable for Joe User? 2 HW solutions that might end up not being supported in the future... or a run-off-the-mill x86-equipment (which he might already have)?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 158 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 08-Nov-2001 21:13 GMT
Long rambling below, you have been warned...
-
We've seen a lot of these fast-growing discussions lately, haven't we? I'd just
like to say that I think this is a good thing. It is quite interesting to read
different viewpoints, and it is nice to see that so many people still care. There's one
thing I want to say though: Please be polite and respect eachothers viewpoints. After
all we are all basically on the same side, and mostly we want the same things, although
we may disagree on how to get them. It's not nice to call eachother names, pick
apart the things your "opponents" say looking for flaws to make a cheap point, or
just laugh at other people's opinions (notice how I'm not mentioning names here ;-)).
-
Ok, I'm in the AmigaOS4.0 PPC camp. This is the path which currently represents what
I want. I respect the people involved, and I trust their intentions. Take Hyperion
for example. Okay, so there is a tendency that some employes tend to call people stupid
in the forums. But how many other companies would do what they do? They are buying
expensive licenses for high-end games, doing an outstanding job porting them, making
no profit whatsoever. Higly likely, they are making a loss, and subsidise their
Amiga development with profits made elsewhere. And now they are managing OS4.0, although
their chances of profit-making are exceptionally slim, at least in the short term. We
are extremely lucky to have a company like that in the community. Think about
that when you criticize them. And what about Amiga Inc? I could be wrong, but I have
the impression that Amiga is now being run by Amigans. We need a mother company. We
need them to act and speak with some authority. We need them to be able to get
financing and generate an income. I believe they have both the intentions and skills
the Amiga needs. And then we have H&P. Without their work on the OS, the prospects
of seing AOS4.0 would be significantly smaller. They made AmigaOS3.5 and 3.9, both
very worthwhile upgrades, if you ask me (and I bought both, so I have the right to
this opinion).
-
So to sum it up, I think AmigaOS is in good hands, and I am looking forward to the
next upgrade. When it comes to the PPC...well, I wont repeat what's already been
said many times about the advantages of having a protected hardware platform. But I'll
add that I like the idea of having a platform which is significantly different from
the Wintel machines which currently dominate all areas of the market. Being different
might not really be a bad thing if you want to draw some interest. I think PPC
development seems to be progressing nicely these days. It doesn't look much like
a dead end to me, not for the time being anyway. Now, there was an idea about custom
x86 hardware mentioned here somewhere. I think it is an interesting idea, and it could
indeed combine some of the advantages of the earlier proposed paths (standard x86 and
custom PPC). However, seeing as we already have some PPC applications, and AmigaOS PPC
can probably be done both sooner and easier, I think I'd still go with AOS4.0 PPC.
-
Ok, that's how I feel about the current situation and the future. Feel free to flame
me, but do it *politely* please.
-
Kay
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 159 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 08-Nov-2001 21:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 156 (Mr.Return):
> All progress of OS4.x will be unavailable for x86-users,
> even if it would be possible to add PPC-emulation you will
> have serious licensing problems.
I didn't miss that point. I simply said it's "no big deal". It is yet to be seen if OS 4.x will offer anything outstanding unavailable elsewhere, or if killer applications will be developed for it. I won't lose any sleep about not being able to run OS 4.x, believe me.
> But it will be no problem to add support for x86-stuff
> into the OS 4 kernel, although I doubt it will be ever
> necessary
x86 support is one thing, Amithlon compatibility is another. Do you think there will be no chages between now and say the end of 2002? I doubt there will be any way to incorporate compatibility for programs written specifically for Amithlon into AmigaOS 4.x at that stage. Besides, the whole point of the Hyperion strategy is to EXCLUDE x86 users, not include them.
This is not a one-way split where Amithlon is excluded. It's a total split where both sides become incompatible with each other, and I suspect that the one with the bigger number of software buying users will end up on top.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 160 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 08-Nov-2001 21:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Mekanix):
Isn't that what the final equation would be anyway? Remember Amiga Inc's supposed aim for OS 5.0?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 161 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 08-Nov-2001 21:54 GMT
People keep mentioning that OS5 will run on x86. Where does it say this on Amiga's website? I can't find it anywhere.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 162 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 08-Nov-2001 21:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 161 (smithy):
In fact, it says OS5 will be 64-bit (at the bottom of http://www.amiga.com/corporate/041201-techupdate-B.shtml). The Pentium & compatibles line are 32-bit so therefore a 64-bit OS cannot possibly run on a 32-bit CPU.
We can stop this OS5/x86 nonsense now then :)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 163 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 21:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 160 (Bill Hoggett):
> Isn't that what the final equation would
> be anyway? Remember Amiga Inc's supposed
> aim for OS 5.0?
But in the final equation OS5 might not happen. Amiga Inc. needs the whole community to make OS5 a viable platform, which is (I believe) the primary reason for doing OS4 at all. They need to keep the communtiy alive and together until OS5 is ready.
On that last bit they have and will fail. And with that failure they'll never get OS5 into public mainstream. Amithlon and MorphOS users will not return, because their system is likely not to be supported. And the community was *the* one edge OS5 would have over any OS-contender on the *huge* OS-market.
Before long Amiga Inc. will cut their loses and focus on DE solely. Depending how much money MorphOS/bplan have invested they might or might not live a bit longer.
And Amithlon/AROS? Will move quietly forward at a steady pace. They might end up being swallowed by one of those MultiOS-projects. Running *nix, BeOS, Darwin, windows, aros and others. These project *are* happening with various mixtures.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 164 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 08-Nov-2001 22:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 162 (smithy):
We can stop this OS5/x86 nonsense now then :)
It's not nonsense. It was either Bill or Fleecy that in a recent interview confirmed that x86 still wass part of OS5.
Don't recall which interview though, sorry.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 165 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 08-Nov-2001 22:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 164 (Mekanix):
There is no mention of this fact anywhere on their website. It still says that OS5 will be 32-bit, has no explicit reference to the PC CPUs anywhere. I think the x86 thing has just crept in somewhere and people have latched on to it.
Why would they spend so much time & effort to porting OS4 to the PPC, then simply throwing it away to make it run a PC? It doesn't make commercial, economic or future-thinking sense. This is definately just a false fact that has crept in somewhere.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 166 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Alcemyst on 08-Nov-2001 22:21 GMT
i see alot of repeating going on & i wont bother replying to any of
this any more,
i will just wait & see, as i cant tell the future.
i want Aone / OS4.O & if it fails then so be it.
i am feed up with all theses ppl knowing exactly what is going to
happen,& yet every one is saying something different.
so pls just wait & see & try & stay on TOPIC & dont turn very thing
into a V this V that all the time.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 167 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Alcemyst on 08-Nov-2001 22:30 GMT
& seeing as it a bit late to stay on topic for the thread
i would just like to mention that Amithlon is up on a ftp's. as from
sunday afternoon.
that didnt take them long did it :)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 168 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 08-Nov-2001 22:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (Alcemyst):
10 days? Long enough, I suppose.
What were you doing there? :P
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 169 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Alcemyst on 08-Nov-2001 22:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 168 (Bill Hoggett):
LOL i did not find it
some one posted it on irc.
but i had no reason to go on the ftp,as i dont have nothing to run
Amithlon on.
& i buy all my amiga SW.
hope to buy Aweb, Moovid & Riva from kicksoft.
& would like to buy Wipout, Freespace,Heretic2, SiN .
when i have the HW to run it.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 170 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Alcemyst on 08-Nov-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 169 (Alcemyst):
oh yeah & PayBack
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 171 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 08-Nov-2001 23:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 169 (Alcemyst):
Bought MooVID and RIVA from Kicksoft on Saturday, and they are good programs. Shame they don't support AHI, but otherwise OK.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 172 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 23:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (Mekanix):
>If AROS and Amithlon joins forces it will possible outlive both MorphOS and AmigaOS since AROS in its nature doesn't require money or a large userbase.
I also place my bets on AROS+Amithlon.
>Furthermore AROS/Amithlon would be strenghtened by the many splits, since developers would be better of supporting 68k, which would reach all paths. Which again would strangle AmigaOS 4/MorphOS even further because there really wouldn't be much sence in buying those expensive solutions. So you wont have anything to sell anyway....
No, the splits won't be good for anyone, you know that. Now that they are here, let's try to keep the incompatibilities as little as possible.
>Hyperion/Amiga Inc. have really made a bad business decision here.
Hyperion, if you are reading this (I know you guys are ;), make sure to give AROS the support it needs to get more compatible with AmigaOS. I have a strong feeling someone will be compiling AROS for Amithlon soon.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 173 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 23:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 158 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
>It's not nice to call eachother names, pick
apart the things your "opponents" say looking for flaws to make a cheap point, or
just laugh at other people's opinions (notice how I'm not mentioning names here ;-)).
I apologise... I always am pissed when someone does the same to me, but I sometimes forget that. :/
>But I'll
add that I like the idea of having a platform which is significantly different from
the Wintel machines which currently dominate all areas of the market. Being different
might not really be a bad thing if you want to draw some interest. I think PPC
development seems to be progressing nicely these days. It doesn't look much like
a dead end to me, not for the time being anyway.
I meant that PPC is a dead-end for AmigaOS in this situation.
>Now, there was an idea about custom
x86 hardware mentioned here somewhere. I think it is an interesting idea, and it could
indeed combine some of the advantages of the earlier proposed paths (standard x86 and
custom PPC).
No. It's not about the architecture of x86, it's because x86 is mainstream and cheap, and that you *can* multiboot. A custom AOS-only x86 board is the exact oppisye.
>However, seeing as we already have some PPC applications, and AmigaOS PPC
can probably be done both sooner and easier, I think I'd still go with AOS4.0 PPC.
I'd go for both a PPC and x86 OS. Providing developers with a common API (endianess problems wiltered out by the Amithlon compiler?), a cross-compiler and some guidelines to make both x86 and PPC executables.
>Ok, that's how I feel about the current situation and the future. Feel free to flame me, but do it *politely* please.
Was that ok? :)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 174 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Richie on 09-Nov-2001 00:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 122 (Brecht):
I think they want us not to use
Amiga OS if not on a PPC. This
A wish that could come true.
MOTOROLA CAUSED THIS TO HAPPEN.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 175 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 09-Nov-2001 00:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 174 (Richie):
heh, what the hell is your problem with motorola? :)
I don't think the 68k architecture could compete with modern CPU's (speed/price).
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 176 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Richie on 09-Nov-2001 00:22 GMT
Shame on Motorola for causing this to happen.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 177 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 09-Nov-2001 01:28 GMT
Wow, this thread has grown since I posted just the other day. Been out of town, finally had a chance to get back here...
First of all, Amiga programs do not necessarily have to be seen as competing against Windows-related programs--and I'm talking about an Amiga OS running natively on x86 architecture. (also, when I say 'x86', I'm just generally meaning mainstream PC hardware that is plentiful...and I have an eye for AMD 'Sledgehammer' and 'Clawhammer, which are 64-bit CPUs; as well as the possibility of Intel's 64-bit Itanium, or whatever they come out with that would really compete against AMD).
One thing to keep in mind, when people think 'x86' (generally PCs), aside from Linux and such, I think they mostly have Windows in mind. They've become so associated with each other--that OS and the general architecture--that 'Amiga on x86' somehow makes some think Windows will be running with it, or on it, or have to even be there. It doesn't have to be there. Many don't WANT it there, in fact. I think it's just silicon, plastic, solder, etc... just happens to be a cheaper route than PPC (if if people can stand up and say PPC *CPUs* are cheaper than those on the x86 side). Amiga's not doing hardware, so it should be a moot point. And before Amigans rally about what remaining hardware companies on the Amiga side are willing to provide custom hardware, they might want to ask how much all that is going to cost, how much additional time to market it's goint to be, and whether they (the users) are going to find themselves in the same boat as years ago; pretty much a captive market where we *had* to pay high prices from a few companies.
I have a different vision of Amiga and where it can be, and I really do not believe we need custom hardware at all. The OS itself can be reworked to run on x86 boards that are already out there (32-bit), as well as the 64-bit CPUs and boards. And I don't see how it would even have a problem with the BIOS that comes with boards like Abit, for example--Windows itself can override the BIOS... the BIOS can be shut off completely, even; or not even installed, from what I understand. But like someone else has posted, there are solutions if it has to have one.
Another note about the competition of Amiga programs vs. Windows programs. A lot of the 'Windows programs' are written by people/companies/teams that either once wrote for Amiga (and could return easily), or who might want to write for Amiga, or write *also* for Amiga.
Amigans, in the end, should be able to go out and buy one of the top ten motherboards of their choice--if they're putting together their own Amiga PC, that is--and install the new Amiga OS on it. I don't see why this is such a problem, nor why certain Amiga developers or programmers seem so afraid to do things on the x86 side of things. I really wonder sometimes--it's almost like some of them go out of their way NOT to make money, or to keep Amiga down, or keep it small, or keep them from producing.
:) But don't worry. Bill McEwen went on record to say that Amiga *IS* porting to the x86 side *AND* to the PPC side, and that Amiga OS will run natively on both. It's only a matter of time before the world sees the truth.
What will become of the Classic? It might well wind up in a window on the new OS, running under emulation and possibly recognizing old Amiga disks in regular PC drives (this is very possible with Catweasel technology and/or a reverse of what CrossDos does, probably with a SuperFloppy since it goes up to 2.44MB I think). There are lots of possibilities here, to put everything in one place, in one OS package.
Those Amigans on 'x86' aren't in such a dire need right now as I believe those on Classic and PPC are, so this is why the whole OS 4.x series is happening. It's allowing Amiga to make money as they do that port. The ones on x86 are already using an emulator, and the newer emulators run even faster--and the next time they see a new Amiga OS there, it should be OS 5.0, and then everybody will be unified, and running AmigaDE as well.
Some things might still be a headache for a bit, but hey...we've come this far and survived (hopefully). We just want to make sure that whatever Amiga OS runs on will be plentiful and affordable.
--EyeAm
http://www.ElectricOil.com
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 178 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 09-Nov-2001 01:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (Mekanix):
>That's a lesson the Amiga-community learned a long time ago; if your locked to
>a singular platform your fucked!
>
You got your lesson wrong.
It should mean: if you are locked to a platform without ongoing development and
support, you are fucked. It started at Commodore not being 100% committed to the
Amiga platform, fatal business decisions and the numerous bankruptcies did not
help either to preserve a healthy userbase/platform.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 179 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 09-Nov-2001 06:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 165 (smithy):
x86 have always been part of Amiga Incs plans, back in the days they beleived that Intent could be used as the core of a desktopOS. Remember their plan was to run on "everything". Have a look at their zico-specs.
When Amiga Inc. realised that Intent couldn't (lack of MP etc.) OS5 were delayed and OS4 put into gear. For more than a year x86 wasn't named with one word neither for OS5 nor for OS5. Then a couple of month ago they confirmed the run on "everything" for OS5 naming x86 explicitly.
Remember that OS4 and OS5 are 2 totally different beast. OS4 will run in a sandbox on OS5. Apart from this Sandbox OS4 and OS5 will have little in common apart from their names.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 180 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam on 09-Nov-2001 06:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 179 (Mekanix):
mekanix if you don't have anyting worthwile to say apart from re-analysing
amiga inc marketing blah which is total BS anyway please don't say it
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 181 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 09-Nov-2001 07:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 173 (Brecht):
>I apologise... I always am pissed when someone does the same to me, but I sometimes forget that. :/
-
It's ok, I'm not one to bear a grudge. :-)
-
>I meant that PPC is a dead-end for AmigaOS in this situation.
-
Ah, that makes more sense (although I still don't agree). Well, I'll be happy
just to get away from 68k...
-
>No. It's not about the architecture of x86, it's because x86 is mainstream and
>cheap, and that you *can* multiboot. A custom AOS-only x86 board is the exact
>oppisye.
-
It would still be mainstream and cheap...but ok, I haven't given this one much
thought. I just thought it was refreshing to see something new being suggested.
-
>I'd go for both a PPC and x86 OS. Providing developers with a common API (endianess
>problems wiltered out by the Amithlon compiler?), a cross-compiler and some
>guidelines to make both x86 and PPC executables.
-
Might just be the best thing, although I'd rather see just a PPC OS first.
-
>Was that ok? :)
-
Yes, that beats "ROFL" quite easily. ;-)
-
Kay
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 182 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 09-Nov-2001 07:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 180 (adam):
There is no "analysis", just pointing out what have been said and written. Amiga Inc. is commited to x86 for OS5 (whether it will happen is another issue). And still some people haven't grasped that piece of info (and that OS4 and OS5 are to different beasts) in all the mud and politics that surround OS4.
And if you do not like to hear this? Buhu, see if I care.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 183 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 09-Nov-2001 08:42 GMT
>AmigaOS 4.0/PPC only
>68k/everything
>Amithlon/x86
How about same sort of system that the DE/VP has, which starts the native code if available, otherwise it would run 68k code? And a compilation system that automatically generates all those executables, with one go.
Should not be impossible, any takers? ;-)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 184 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by alt3reg0 on 09-Nov-2001 09:02 GMT
damnit, you all sound like what's left of the gothic subculture
bickering 'bout what's goth and what's not. I think that some of
doesn't calm down a bit and all of you try to understand eachother
and compromise a little the Amiga community will take the same path
as goth has! In a few years all the original Amigans will have
grown tired and quit so that all that's left are a bunch of weird
wannabees and suddenly Amiga get's the blame for some high-school
shootings and... umm.. yea, you get the point..
Anyhow, here's my oppinion: ;D
* AmigaOS won't be a hit on the X86 market until it beats (the THEN
current version of) windows in at least the following ways:
- Visual appearance
- Ease of installation and use
- Speed (both of OS and apps)
- Availability of apps (all the basic apps PLUS some real killer
games and stuff to attract new ppl)
- Extra features (like binary portability)
* AmigaOS 4 on x86 would never do that
* AmigaOS 5 hopefully will!
* Only techheads like us would use AOS4 on an x86
* If people actually switch to AmigaOS X as thir main OS some
time in the future, they might buy a PPC Amiga next time they
upgrade their hardware if they can simply unplug their old HD
and put it in the new box and still run all progs (go AmigaDE go!)
hm,, that's what I think anyhow.. would be interesting to see
AmigaDE/SDK hosted on Amithlon. ;)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 185 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by José on 09-Nov-2001 12:31 GMT
The x86 processors will always be dominated by Microsoft. And in near short future time Amiga has to survive in won't change(I'm talking about the desktop here).
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 186 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Richie on 09-Nov-2001 12:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 175 (Brecht):
When MOTO dropped all development of 68xxx, it insured that this would happen.
Hell, the PPC guys can't get their acts together. From the beginning of PPC.
The 68x couldn't compete with 86x on price/performance.
MOTO didn't even try.
Coldfire runs at 350, 68x runs at 60. What is that?
IMO: If a company doesn't support me why should I support them?
Hey MOTO was in bed with apple and IBM when the PPC was planed.
Now there's two great friends of the amiga - apple and IBM.
PPC put a fork in Amiga. MOTO should not be rewarded.
That's why I want to see it on x86.
Richie
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 187 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by José on 09-Nov-2001 14:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Richie):
Well, I think you have no base to justify those coments. Those companies actually worket together to develop PPC. There is no monopoly in PPC as far as I know. Please stop nonsense coments to satisfy your obcessions.
Actually SGI droped their processors and are willing to use future PPCs (G5). I don't remember well if this is a rumour but I think it wasn't. PPC also has a play in the embedded market. ....etc.
I think the conclusion to be made is that there is a risk. A risk that is not worth taking, at least now. MANY of the arguments that are used in favour of x86 could be used against it, and vice versa for PPC. But has there ever been any company that was able to penetrate the x86 OS market??! Isnt' that fisical prof that the risk is hight?! So what x86 gives us more users. x86 users won't buy Amiga software, simply because Windows software is in general more developed and featured (and more slow and buggy as you know). Also even if there is Amiga sofware that would be better, the marketting power Windows has doesn't give Amiga a chance. Hasn't there been enouph evidence that it's not the best solution that wins !?. Now you ask, in what does PPC changes this?. Well, I think there are still ancient users that would come to the platform. It's nonsense, because they'd have their chosen software in x86 hardware I know. But that's just how it is. And would these users buy Amiga software if to their x86 machine? NO! Sorry, but I don't think all this is based on just logic.
But it has it's logic. Many just sympathise with the Amiga. I would be happy to have my Amiga machine, with it's own hardware. Also some users just like something different. There are always people that would buy it, even it just for the hardware (G5 will kick ass given the tests).
Just my support for the non x86 theory.
Cheers
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 188 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 09-Nov-2001 14:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 182 (Mekanix):
>Amiga Inc. is commited to x86 for OS5
Then their website is incorrect. OS5 cannot be a 64-bit OS like it says.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 189 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 09-Nov-2001 15:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Richie):
Yes, but Intel as a company is not any better.
It's only after AMD beat the shit out of them with K7, x86 got
rediculously cheap and fast to the advantage of the consumer.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 190 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Bogus Realname on 09-Nov-2001 16:06 GMT
Ok I'll tell you now the secret of PPC Amiga platform (from my point of view):
* PPC was always the next step up from 68k since 1995
* There is already quite a number of PPC software
* Amiga software/HW developers support PPC, because it is a (comfortable) niche
* PPC has a better design than x86 and with GHz G4 or G5 there should be enough
power to compete with x86
* Amiga HW manufacturer has control about the hardware (e.g. implementing or
deleting certain features) and has a direct connection to Amiga customers.
As I stated in another posting, it is very strange there had been no decent
K7 chipset apart from AMD's own, and although the bus architecture is good
for SMP, only now there are some (Tyan) boards available - finally
* With bulk production the prices should come down to an acceptable level.
* Not everyone has x86 yet (I for my part have not)
* Not everyone ultimately goes for fast & cheap -> Apple
* An own Amiga PPC platform could give a certain feeling of pride or identity
* Don't forget how Wintel spyed on you with WinXP registration bullshit, NSAkey,
Pentium3 indentify number etc. ;-)
* And for the die-hards...x86 is no Amiga!!!
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 191 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 09-Nov-2001 16:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 190 (Bogus Realname):
>* PPC was always the next step up from 68k since 1995
But it never really took of.
>* There is already quite a number of PPC software
There is very little PPC software.
>* Amiga software/HW developers support PPC, because it is a (comfortable) niche
It's everything but comfortable, there's too few buyers.
>* PPC has a better design than x86 and with GHz G4 or G5 there should be enough
power to compete with x86
You can't say it a better design or not. x86 has changed alot during the years. And both PPC and x86 are mixed RISC + CISC, there's no clear line. Add to that that the x86 is far cheaper at the same speeds (not clockrate).
>* Amiga HW manufacturer has control about the hardware (e.g. implementing or
deleting certain features) and has a direct connection to Amiga customers.
As I stated in another posting, it is very strange there had been no decent
K7 chipset apart from AMD's own, and although the bus architecture is good
for SMP, only now there are some (Tyan) boards available - finally
Are the VIA and ALi chipsets that bad? I don't think so.
Not alot of users need an SMP board, of course there's less choice.
>* With bulk production the prices should come down to an acceptable level.
There will never be bulk production of Amiga specific hardware.
>* Not everyone has x86 yet (I for my part have not)
Not everyone, but let's say 95%.
>* Not everyone ultimately goes for fast & cheap -> Apple
Apple is no longer about computing, it's about fashion.
>* An own Amiga PPC platform could give a certain feeling of pride or identity
Noone said we should drop the PPC, but we need an x86 AmigaOS *next to* a PPC version.
>* Don't forget how Wintel spyed on you with WinXP registration bullshit, NSAkey, Pentium3 indentify number etc. ;-)
What does MS have to do with an x86 AmigaOS?
>* And for the die-hards...x86 is no Amiga!!!
neither is PC. 68k is the only 'real' Amiga.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 192 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 09-Nov-2001 19:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 190 (Bogus Realname):
>* PPC was always the next step up from 68k since 1995
You mean 'in' 1995. This means we are dealing with 6-year old thinking and a 6-year old business plan. The computing market 6 years ago was a different
>* Amiga HW manufacturer has control about the hardware (e.g. implementing or
>deleting certain features) and has a direct connection to Amiga customers.
Ahh, but this isn't quite true. We can turn Mr Hermans arguments about competing with the big boys around on him when it comes to hardware. As I understand it AmigaOne will have standard hardware - i.e. PCI slots, etc... So what's to stop AmigaOne owners buying the cheaper PC hardware instead of an Amiga hardware maker's hardware? Do only software makers matter to Mr Hermans and not hardware makers? Why does he use software as an argument and not hardware? Is it because he runs a software company himself?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 193 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Steve Brightman on 09-Nov-2001 20:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 184 (alt3reg0):
> damnit, you all sound like what's left of the gothic subculture
bickering 'bout what's goth and what's not. I think that some of
doesn't calm down a bit and all of you try to understand eachother
and compromise a little the Amiga community will take the same path
as goth has! <
You'd be amazed how quick it would quiet down if we could just get our hands on a nice new shiny OS and/or hardware!
I'd love to retire my trusty A2000 and buy a kick ass machine that handles multiple digital video data streams in real time.
> Anyhow, here's my oppinion: ;D
* AmigaOS won't be a hit on the X86 market until it beats (the THEN
current version of) windows in at least the following ways:
- Visual appearance
- Ease of installation and use
- Speed (both of OS and apps)
- Availability of apps (all the basic apps PLUS some real killer
games and stuff to attract new ppl)
- Extra features (like binary portability) <
s'funny cos the reason I keep using the A2000 is that it handily beats the Pentium parked next to it on the first three items (yes, it does lots of things faster with an 040/33 than my 450MHz PII!).
That's not to say it's not showing it's age in many areas, I need that killer video stuff I mentioned to justify new hardware.
:-)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 194 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Nov-2001 00:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 192 (smithy):
>>* PPC was always the next step up from 68k since 1995
>>
>You mean 'in' 1995. This means we are dealing with 6-year old thinking and a
>6-year old business plan. The computing market 6 years ago was a different
>
Escom, Phase5, Petro/Torre-Gateway and AInc were all for going PPC (and you
have no endian problems).
I have to admit, since Apple killed off the clone market, MS killed NT for PPC
and a CHRP with an alternative OS was not available, the PPC movement lost a
big part of its momentum. The last years the PPC was stuck to low MHz numbers
and isolated in the Mac corner.
But now we see GHz and 64Bit PPC and with bplan (I think they have the cleaner
and more appealing design) there is a company that could drag PPC and CHRP
back in spotlight, where it belongs.
If this will stir public interest in PPC and finally generate a viable, open
alternative platform to the x86 world it remains to be seen - but at least they
deserve a chance and I am willing to support that.
>
>>* Amiga HW manufacturer has control about the hardware (e.g. implementing or
>>deleting certain features) and has a direct connection to Amiga customers.
>>
>Ahh, but this isn't quite true. We can turn Mr Hermans arguments about competing
>with the big boys around on him when it comes to hardware. As I understand it
>AmigaOne will have standard hardware - i.e. PCI slots, etc... So what's to stop
>AmigaOne owners buying the cheaper PC hardware instead of an Amiga hardware maker's
>hardware? Do only software makers matter to Mr Hermans and not hardware makers?
>Why does he use software as an argument and not hardware? Is it because he runs a
>software company himself?
>
I think it is indeed because he leads a software company. But then there is consensus
within the Amiga community, that modularity (PCI) is a good thing and the next step
in Commodore Amiga history would have been to scrap Zorro4 and implement PCI (if you
trust the word of Dave Haynie). Now, there was one big effort to design a nextgen
custom chip for the Amiga market - but it was a flop (Caipirinha).
I think there are not many companies left, that _could_ develop something own and
bring it to the market - maybe DCE or Elbox (or Eyetech and Merlancia?).
I would like you to look at the PPC/PCI solutions as a try to buildup a nice, own HW
platform. If this does not work out...scrap it - Amithlon is the stopgap solution and
then we will have the "cplan": a x86 OS. :-)
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