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[News] Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketingANN.lu
Posted on 29-Nov-2001 01:16 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä82 comments
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Cloanto stated their opinion about AmigaXL marketing, which they feel has been misleading. They also released a comparison of Amiga Forever and "other solutions".
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 1 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 01:35 GMT
Great now they claim it can multitask. What a bunch of winblows. You cant Multitask on a system such as the setup of pc,mas or sgi. Although the os helps and makes it better it is by no means multitasking. Its not that fast either . TWO misconceptions being spread to then belived.Dont belive.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 2 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by FCAC on 29-Nov-2001 02:06 GMT
They sound like a pack of whingers.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 3 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 29-Nov-2001 02:38 GMT
i don't think it's right that an emulator can be released under the title amiga osxl, this implies it is a brand new os or an iteration...
i think amiga forever is a better package
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 4 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 02:53 GMT
Talk about sour grapes!
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 5 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 29-Nov-2001 03:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Hilarious, always funny to see twits like this ramble with
their oh so correct knowledge :)
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 6 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Zooba on 29-Nov-2001 04:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Wipe your mouth, you're talking shit.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 7 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 29-Nov-2001 04:12 GMT
At least Cloanto doesn't pretend their software is a next genereation AmigaOS for X86. Cloanto market's it for what it is, an emulator for WINDOWS.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 8 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Veroukis on 29-Nov-2001 05:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
>Great now they claim it can multitask. What a bunch of winblows. You cant
>Multitask on a system such as the setup of pc,mas or sgi. Although the os
>helps and makes it better it is by no means multitasking. Its not that fast
>either . TWO misconceptions being spread to then belived.Dont belive.
Are you insane?!? Sure it can Multitask. And yes it is faster. This is well documented and if you want to come over to my house I'll prove it you.
There is nothing about x86 architecture that inhibits multitasking. All you need is some timer exceptions in supervisor mode and that's it; time slicing! Big deal! The only reason Windows and Mac OS suck at multitasking is because the OS was never designed for it really. Linux on the other hand multitasks quite well (perhaps better then the Amiga) on x86. So, if you are suggesting that you can't multitask properly on the x86, you have no credibility what so ever. Same goes if you're claiming an emulator can't multitask. That's crazy!
- Mike
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 9 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Solar (BAUD) on 29-Nov-2001 05:51 GMT
PowerUP <-> WarpUP.
CGX <-> P96.
AmigaOS 4.x <-> MorphOS.
"True" Amiga <-> Emulation.
And now, UAE / Amiga Forever <-> AmigaOS XL.
You´re sick.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 10 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 29-Nov-2001 06:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Solar (BAUD)):
LOL! Not much sanity to salvage in this kindergarden, is there? :-)
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 11 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Desmon on 29-Nov-2001 06:06 GMT
I searched the Cloanto pages exhaustively. Can someone please
point me at these supposed comparisons?
And while I was there, I noticed that they (Cloanto) espouse the
speed of the JIT compiler AmigaForever uses. Not once was it
mentioned that the JIT wouldn't exist but for the work of Bernd
Meyer, the same man who's behind Amithlon.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 12 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Schober on 29-Nov-2001 07:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Solar (BAUD)):
Agreed! Nothing more to say!
damn (ts ts ... shakin my head)
ga
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 13 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sotiris Papageorgioy on 29-Nov-2001 07:55 GMT
I don`t think that the problem is bern who is behind the jit but that they advertize somethink that it already existed as the first one.I don`t see why i have to pay a lot of money to buy the ff(first-fast?) xl think(why didn`t call it xp they would have more fun ;-)) when i have already winuae on my pc and i can play with?hey HP is this an emulated amiga?or i have to buy xl?I don`t like hp marketing and i am glad that hyperion has the first hand on os4.
But it is very sad that everythink in the amiga world software or hardware has to split the users,we are drowling for hard&soft but when it came out we are fighting like maniacs,i think something wrong is here and this isn`t helping our miggy nor the developers nor the users!
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 14 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 29-Nov-2001 08:41 GMT
The thing I thought was odd was the claim that OSXL was the "most functional" Amiga... In what way is my A4000 not functional? :)
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 15 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 29-Nov-2001 08:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Peter Gordon):
What H&P mean is that you have the functions of both QNX (eg working
browser) and AmigaOS.
But compared to an A4000, you have lost all the hardware
functionality, so I agree that overall the A4000 is more "functional".
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 16 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 29-Nov-2001 08:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Peter Gordon):
Haage & Partner can't translate for peanuts. Their English documentation and advertising is crap because they won't employ a competent translator.
The "most functional" claim is bunkum of course. It was coined for AmigaXL - 99% of the AOSXL advertising and documentation is for XL, originally called AmigaOS XL on its own - and referred to AmigaXL having all the functionality of WinUAE as well as being able to launch QNX applications from with in the emulation. Does that make QNX apps into Amiga apps? Does it heck.
AmigaXL is a modified UAE-JIT for QNX with some extra bits on. The bits are cute and fairly useful but not the great advance H&P claim. Running on QNX tends to nullify those advantages anyway, because it is not well supported.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 17 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 29-Nov-2001 10:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Don Cox):
Well, I don't think that anything the host OS does of its own accord has any bearing on the functionality of the "Amiga". Besides which, Amiga browsers don't "suck" like a lot of people say they do, they just don't support enough standards.
The actual quality of the browsing environment offered by Amiga browsers (specifically IBrowse and AWeb IMHO) is superior to IE or Nutscrape. Features like the Network window where you can selectively stop/retry downloads, the ARexx ports, IBrowses tabs, the configurable GUIs (although AWeb IS ugly :).
Anyway, back to being on topic... All actual Amigas are fully functional Amigas... (unless they're broken :)
All emulators are semi-functional Amigas... (although they do quite a good job).
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 18 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 29-Nov-2001 10:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Bill Hoggett):
> AmigaXL is a modified UAE-JIT for QNX with some extra bits on.
Ehum... so where are the sources?
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 19 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Georg Steger on 29-Nov-2001 11:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Fabio Alemagna):
AFAIK it's included on their CD.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 20 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 29-Nov-2001 12:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Georg Steger):
Shouldn't they be made available to everyone without buying the CD? Just asking out of kind of ignorance, here...
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 21 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 12:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Fabio Alemagna):
Didn't the coder of the UAE-JIT code AmigaXL. In which case, he's
perfectly entitled to change the licence if he so wishes.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 22 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 12:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Fabio Alemagna):
If the code is GPL'd yes. But AFAIK, it's not The fact,
that the original version was under the GPL doesn't mean
anything. The original author can change the licence
any time he chooses.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 23 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Desmon on 29-Nov-2001 12:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Fabio Alemagna):
The UAE JIT is GPL'd SOurces are out there on the 'net.
Try a search engine.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 24 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 29-Nov-2001 12:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Anonymous):
if ALL the coders that contributed to UAE agreed with a changing of license then yes, AmigaOS XL can be sold with a different license, but is it so? Humm... I guess that the authors must have been convinced with very good arguments to do so...
AFAIK AmigaOS XL still has chipset emulation, hasn't it? I migth be wrong on this, though...
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 25 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 29-Nov-2001 12:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Desmon):
Read my post again. Read it well, this time. I asked about the AmigaOS XL's sources, not the UAE-JIT's ones.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 26 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Desmon on 29-Nov-2001 12:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Fabio Alemagna):
> AFAIK AmigaOS XL still has chipset emulation, hasn't it? I migth be wrong on this, though...
AmigaXL does, Amithlon doesn't. The reason for the speed claims for Amithlon are the lack of chipset emulation.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 27 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 29-Nov-2001 12:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Desmon):
Ok, then we agree that to sell AmigaOS XL with a different license ALL the authors of UAE must have given their OK. Perhaps they have been given good "arguments" to do so... <g>
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 28 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Desmon on 29-Nov-2001 12:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Fabio Alemagna):
> Read my post again. Read it well, this time. I asked about the AmigaOS XL's sources, not the UAE-JIT's ones.
AFAIK, AmigaXL was derived from UAE. The emulation layer (mini-kernel) under Amithlon wasn't.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 29 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 12:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Fabio Alemagna):
> Read my post again. Read it well, this time. I asked about the AmigaOS XL's
> sources, not the UAE-JIT's ones.
And in the case of AmigaOS XL, the neccesary sources are on the cd, which is enough to ensure GPL compliance. Tou only have to give the source to your customers. On the other hand, it's perfectly legal for those customizers to uploads that source somewhere.
But anyway.. I'm quite sure those GPL'ed sources alone doesn't make AmigaOS XL
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 30 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 13:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Desmon):
> Not once was it mentioned that the JIT
> wouldn't exist but for the work of Bernd
> Meyer, the same man who's behind Amithlon.
He is not only mentioned on the very home page at http://amigaforever.info, but he is the only one of the individual contributors to be mentioned by name!
Also, it is mentioned in the credits of Amiga Forever, in the documentation.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 31 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 13:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
Well when it is correct it is correct.Who are you to say its not. After all I had the system uae . It is slow and then they said it could multitask. They are basing everything on speed, from multitasking to real-time. No matter how slow a persion does two or more things at once we are multitasking in real-time. Clanto or the wintel communitys way of thinking is more speed now you can multitask and do real-time. Its the facts you have to kno what multitasking is beore you can say you can do it pc and macs ar incable of doing it. THe HArdware is what make the differnce and i you dont have the right hardware-motherboard you cant do it . I dont care how much you lie like clanto. The speed of 4.0 was like a A500 with no multitasking same thing this time but as fast an 040. When they say oh its faster then a 040 well you have to have a ppc on a pc and merlancia is the only one that can do that. Clantos then lies andsays its 20 % faster then an 060.Thats bull hockey its 10 % faster then the 040/25mhz with a ppc. It should be, but with a PPC equipped Amiga I can be At least 50% faster then the 040. I got the facts I suggest you do to.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 32 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 13:48 GMT
that was to anyone that doesnt belive comment 1. CLanto is talking shit. rember amigaosxl is using clanto 5.0, and secondly I said I keep up with the facts by asking to non bias people what its doing and how fast it is . Unless they want there names plastered all over the place ,thier name isnt mentioned. SO tuff if you dont belive.You are the type that would go and buy anything becasue of what the ads say and not test it out or get a second or fourth opinion. Sad fact really becasue thats what the wintel community wants you to do. That way youll by the cheap knock of pc. Which with the clanto you do and with osxl or amigaone all in the same. You still dont recognize this . Hey you dont buy with knowldege you just buy becasue they say to buy. SO when they say jump, you say," how hi and where", they say hi and into the lake of fire and away you go.%^)
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 33 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 13:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Mike Veroukis):
MIke you need to know the true meaniing of multitasking and why it can multitask. I was given a lecture for 15minutes by Ibm and UNIX ENgineers all of them in ther 50s.
They perfectly said as long as pc and anybody else that uses the current technology they will never multitask. Byte magzine even admitted that the AMIGA os can multitask and the reat cant including linux and other unix flavors. Why do you think we had to rewrite linux for are port. dam its really not linux at all its another AMIGA os lol. Like I said mike you have asked to jump how hi.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 34 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 13:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Desmon):
Call merlancia I just did . I called some of my friends that where using it and they werent impressed at all. I'll repond to this by email also. LIke them I got a bad reponse all of which clanto claims arnt true. but hey multitaski as in multitask like windows sure.
when something is based on somehting that cant multitask it cant multitask unless you go by mikes defintion or the wintel defintion -one in the same.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 35 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 29-Nov-2001 14:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
and a lot of the people here have done proper computer science courses and know what preemptive multitasking is. You don't.
There is nothing stopping current PC hardware from running a preemptively multitasking operating system. Windows 2000/XP is. Window 9x isn't really, because of 16-bit compatibility. QNX, BeOS...
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 36 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by JW on 29-Nov-2001 15:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (adam ceremuga):
I never could get my Amiga Forever to run as it required windoze, something not allowed in this house. It still sits here in it's package, brand new. Amithlon on the other hand is happilly running on my 1.3Ghz Athlon hardware! So does AmigaXL but I don't care much for the QNX OS.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 37 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Bladerunner on 29-Nov-2001 15:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Anonymous):
Err... what the hell has Hardware to do with a multitasking OS??? I don`t like the PC Architecture too, but what you are telling is completely wrong... Multitasking is from the OS not from the Hardware..
And as Amiga OS is able to do Multitasking, so it is also abl on top of an emulator...
Another Thing is stability.. I `ve tried Win UAE (and nothing else is the core emulation of Cloanto)on a 1Ghz
Athlon... pretty fast, but some things even failed to work, and there where random crashes...
But saying Multitasking comes from Hardware is IMHO Stupid!
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 38 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by JW on 29-Nov-2001 15:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Graham):
MIcroSoft's answer to multitasking was to just redefine the term. Multitasking now means to do one thing after the other just with a high speed CPU so it looks to the user as it is done at the same time. That is total trash as any UNIX man would tell you. So wouls any competent computer sciences student deserving of any grade higher than a D. Linux was rewritten Unix for crying out loud so that it COULD run on a lineal (single tasking) machine. Doesn't anyone know the origins of things they use anymore?
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 39 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 29-Nov-2001 15:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Anonymous):
Any processor based system is capable of running a multitasking kernel of some kind, so stop talking crap! You haven't got the facts at all!
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 40 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 29-Nov-2001 16:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (JW):
This is 2001 now, not 1991 with Windows 3.1, which had very poor multitasking (as you described).
2000 and XP have proper multitasking (hell, Windows 95 did if you didn't run any 16-bit code, which was practically impossible at the time). Linux doesn't do preemptive multitasking though, unless you use the preemptive multitasking kernel patch. MacOSX has proper preemptive multitasking as well, after 16 years of cooperative multitasking nastiness (which worked well for most users though, it has to be argued).
The only way that you can say that UAE is not multitasking truely is because it is running as a single task on top of another OS. But inside that task, the emulated Amiga believes it is multitasking just fine - the emulation is providing the virtual hardware upon which the Amiga is running.
Anyway, the point is that hardware does not stop you from writing a multitasking operating system. They exist on the C64! Sure, these ones are usually simple round-robin or cooperative multitasking systems, but you can't blame them when you have so little resourse!
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 41 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by tinman on 29-Nov-2001 16:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (JW):
> Multitasking now means to do one thing after the other
> just with a high speed CPU so it looks to the user as
> it is done at the same time.
Yes (although I wouldn't call 7MHz 68000 a fast CPU ;). Multitasking just means to run multiple tasks by time slicing the availability of the CPU to make it look like they are running at the same time (and it always has hasn't it?). How else do you expect a single CPU which generally have single execution chains to run more than one thing at a time? Anyway, humans are too slow to multitask faster than a processor.
Multiprocessing (and multithreading at a similarly different level) on the other hand would be running multiple tasks on multiple processors all at the same time.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 42 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 29-Nov-2001 16:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (tinman):
There are, of course, different types of multitasking. Preemptive (as with the Amiga, BeOS, MacOSX and countless others over the last 20 years or so) which allows the kernel to decide to interrupt another applications running (even the kernel) in order to be processed (e.g., as a result of an interrupt, or the kernel deciding that the currently running application has had enough time already). The next application to be run can be decided by simple round-robin, or by application priority levels, etc (of course, avoiding starvation of low-priority applications) from a list of runnable applications (not blocked on IO).
Cooperative (Win 3.1 and below, Mac OS 9 and below) put the onus on the application to be nice and tell the OS when it can stop running. i.e., not very good in comparison with the above.
Yes, the above is simplified.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 43 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 17:05 GMT
"Real" multitasking is running multiple tasks AT THE SAME TIME. This REQUIRES multiple CPU:s. The multitasking we know from Amiga (and many other operating systems) is a kind of SIMULATED multitasking, where a single processor interupts the execution once in a while and jump between the different processes. It may FEEL like multitasking (both to the user and to the code), but it isn't multitasking in its true sence.
But when people in common talk about multitasking today, the latter is what they mean.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 44 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 29-Nov-2001 17:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Anonymous):
you're an idiot and don't deserve a proper reply.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 45 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by tinman on 29-Nov-2001 17:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Graham):
I know all that, but preemptive multitasking is the one thats normally used when one speaks of multitasking. Cooperative multitasking is a poor man's way (as mentioned somewhere above, all you basically need for preemptive is a timer interrupt and a decent OS).
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 46 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Afroman on 29-Nov-2001 17:24 GMT
I dunno what kinda shrooms you're eating, but save some for me!
Jeez, some people are so full of propaganda from the 80s that they'd claim red was blue without being colourblind.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 47 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Ruben Monteiro on 29-Nov-2001 17:30 GMT
They do have a point here, which is the driver base. I can't get Amithlon to work with my sound and network cards. UAE on the other hand gets it all from Windows, so everything works.
It's a shame that Amithlon can only support some hardware, that's its' biggest problem.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 48 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 29-Nov-2001 17:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (tinman):
It wasn't a reply to you, just a clarification/addition for the posters who think that multitasking is not supported by various types of hardware, such as PC hardware.
Maybe they are talking about the Amiga's multiprocessing capabilities with its chipset, but that is nothing different to how standard PC hardware works these days (or the last 10 years) anyway.
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 49 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 29-Nov-2001 18:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Ruben Monteiro):
>They do have a point here, which is the driver base. I can't get Amithlon to
>work with my sound and network cards. UAE on the other hand gets it all from
>Windows, so everything works.
I agree. I'll either have to wait for drivers for my SBLive and RTL 8139 (?) or buy extra cards :( It's hard enough to write drivers (i imagine), and it's not very nice that the various pci solutions and amithlon each have seperate drivers :/
>It's a shame that Amithlon can only support some hardware, that's its' biggest problem.
If not the only problem :)
Cloanto critisize AmigaXL marketing : Comment 50 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Nov-2001 20:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (tinman):
multitasking has nothing to do with time slicing that is timesharing. AMIga doesnt do that NT win95 and etc does. Good grief another person beliving in what others have said without checking for yourself.
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