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[News] Clarification from FleecyANN.lu
Posted on 20-Mar-2002 12:13 GMT by Christian Kemp29 comments
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Rik Sweeney writes: Over at Amiga.org there is an article clarifying the press release from Amiga regarding Amiga Anywhere running on Windows CE.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 1 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by scooby on 20-Mar-2002 11:52 GMT
Now can everyone just stop the boycotting and grow up!
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 2 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by José on 20-Mar-2002 12:08 GMT
I was one of the ones that doubted. I still do somehow, but I believe at the same time!:) I'm refering to if they continue the ClassicAmigaOS, or leave it for a completly different product.
SO now you can see. AA WILL HELP FUNDING AMIGAOS IN THE FUTURE!!!! It's bizarre since, Microsoft can get the developers they want, so why would they want to fund some company with a competitive OS (AmigaOS). My guess is that they want VP code running on .NET too.
I believe Amiga has not sold theirs souls.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 3 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-Mar-2002 12:24 GMT
I say we boycott the truth and become trolls , now the truth that most of us thought all along has come out ! :)
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 4 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 20-Mar-2002 13:14 GMT
In a couple of minutes we'll be able to read posts from people too proud or ignorant to realize that they were wrong. These will probably point out other things which Amiga Inc has done wrong giving them reason to continue their so-called boycott. Those are the kind of people the Amiga community would do fine without anyway so let's just let them do their thing while we ignore them, ok?
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 5 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Ante on 20-Mar-2002 13:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (José):
I doubt Microsoft see Amiga as a comptetitive OS.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 6 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Artur Pietruk on 20-Mar-2002 13:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Samface):
No, why? The future is so "exciting" ;-).
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 7 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by EmGee on 20-Mar-2002 14:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (José):
Hi Jose,
Now you can sleep nicely again I guess ? :))
However, I'm still not convinced that AOS is their main goal instead of AA.
But who knows, we'll have to see what the future brings us.
Regards,
EmGee
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 8 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 20-Mar-2002 15:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (EmGee):
Has anyone actually read the strategic vision?
It may not be spelled out in detail, but it's obvious that the plan is to converge the OS/DE technologies.
What's the compelling reason to preserve the 'classic' AmigaOS? Investment in sadly dated software and hardware? There are obviously two camps: those that welcome change, progress and financial culpability and those that want the Amiga to remain a closed system available to a select few that desperately need to get a life.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 9 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by amigo on 20-Mar-2002 16:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (EmGee):
reagrdless whether its their main goal or not any stuff made for DE inadvertently will work on amiga when they implement the DE into the OS. yay! :)
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 10 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by José on 20-Mar-2002 16:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (anonymous):
"It may not be spelled out in detail, but it's obvious that the plan is to converge the OS/DE technologies."
I've read it. There was even a clarification on Amiga.org sometime ago, about what DE integration would mean, as some people thought it meant AmigaOS written in VP and so hardware independent. The answer was that Amiga Inc. had NO PLANS to make AmigaOS for x86, and that "DE integration" symply meant that AmigaOS would treat DE applications as individual applications, not like in OS4.x, in wich you have DE running as as application.
"What's the compelling reason to preserve the 'classic' AmigaOS? Investment in sadly dated software and hardware?"
AmigaOne is out. With the fastestG4 outthere, when the socket version comes out, it will be as fast as the fastest Pentiums, or faster, at least in some areas, like Altivtec, wich has no equivalent. At the same time, for the first time there is affordable PPC hardware, that can be custom built. Also, for the first time, there are actually companies making PPC hardware, wich is open , and there will various companies making it, and some competition. Is that what you call investment in SADLY dated hardware?
As for AmigaOS being dated software.
How do you then classify the people that have modern hardware, but use it to emultate dated system software(ie AmigaOS)? THe surprise is that the emultated thing is sometimes more responsive than the native shit. So what't your definition of modern, something recent?!
I really wonder what da heck are you doing here then? If it's not the software, nor the hardware. Maybe you're here just for the DE? Well, then you can run it on your Winblows box and shut da fuck up, cause EVEN if there was people here just for using oudated soft/hard, that's because of liking it. Most of the remaning people on the C64 scene for example, are programmers, and do it for the fun, so, you can see it's not just sick people in there. If see the Amiga as just dated in eveything and you don't have any reason to be here, the sick sad person is you. Maybe you don't understand yourself the reason why you're here and say that to see if we don't know either? You're the one who's sick. AmigaOS has always been about efficiency and astonishing multitasking. Stick with your windows x86 box, and shut up. Some other people prefer to be the black sheeP.
" There are obviously two camps: those that welcome change, progress and financial culpability and those that want the Amiga to remain a closed system available to a select few that desperately need to get a life. "
What da fuck are you talking about? There can be change and progress in a closed system. However what is the DE? Isn't it available for everyplatform? Has anyone complained here, now, about it?. You already have your toy, now why don't you stop messing around with the people that kept the platform alive?.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 11 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by leif on 20-Mar-2002 19:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (José):
>The answer was that Amiga Inc. had NO PLANS to make AmigaOS for x86, and >that "DE integration" symply meant that AmigaOS would treat DE applications as >individual applications, not like in OS4.x, in wich you have DE running as as >application.
Finally, now i understand it. This sounds much like the way
MorhpOS treats 68k apps. This could make it possible to
have each de-app memoryprotected as a regular ppc-task.
It now sounds alot better.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 12 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by José on 20-Mar-2002 19:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (EmGee):
"Now you can sleep nicely again I guess ? :))"
Absolutely:)
"However, I'm still not convinced that AOS is their main goal instead of AA.
But who knows, we'll have to see what the future brings us. "
Of course not. But it's not like a mutually exclusive thing. There will be people coding natively for AmigaOS only.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 13 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Mikael Burman on 20-Mar-2002 19:51 GMT
Hey all!! :)
Well, I just thought a nice thought... what if NewTek starts to support AmigaDE!? :) Lightwave 7 _could_ be a possibility on AmigaONE/AOS, (and a number of other PPC-systems) when AmigaDE runs
on it (and, of course _if_ NewTek wants to support it). I like this.. as Amiga.INC says, "the future is very exciting".. :)))
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 14 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-Mar-2002 22:42 GMT
I have to take issue with one of Moss's points:
>It's actually very difficult to write an AA app that can only run on one of
>the target platforms - it can be done but it would be a lot of extra work to
>limit your product anyway.
It takes one line of Java to do this. I thought Java code would run on the DE/AA?
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 15 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Rick Pezzimenti on 21-Mar-2002 00:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (smithy):
He might have been thinking of things coded in VP. But anyways, just out of curiosity, what is that one line of java code?
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 16 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by AmiTroll on 21-Mar-2002 01:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (smithy):
>It takes one line of Java to do this. I thought Java code would run on the DE/AA?
Sure java runs on it. But if you compile a VP app the binary is
going to run on everything. Which makes creating a binary to
run natively on one processor and forgoe all other hardware
pretty difficult. Can't you read? Why the hell would you wan't
to limit where your applications can be run anyway? You don't
like money?
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 17 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 21-Mar-2002 04:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Rick Pezzimenti):
Never gave it a deep thought but how about
if (java.lang.System.getProperty("os.name").toLowerCase().indexOf("windows")!=-1) System.exit(0);
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 18 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by NihilVor on 21-Mar-2002 05:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Mikael Burman):
>Well, I just thought a nice thought... what if NewTek starts to support AmigaDE!? :) Lightwave
> 7 _could_ be a possibility on AmigaONE/AOS, (and a number of other PPC-systems) when
> AmigaDE runs
> on it (and, of course _if_ NewTek wants to support it). I like this.. as Amiga.INC says, "the
> future is very exciting".. :)))
I agree such a thing would be good for 4.X & 5.0, but this is not the kind of thing that would be that impressive on AmigaDE/AA player--that is not Elate's specialty. Besides, Lightwave/Toaster are things that would benifit the platform and an Amiga specific version would be better then a run on anything palm video effects thingy.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 19 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 21-Mar-2002 07:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Mikael Burman):
The VP in intent supports heterogenous multiprocessing, lightwave would benefit a lot from that kind of feature.
Does anyone have any hint when DE players are planned to get the awareness of each other & start sharing processing power?
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 20 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 21-Mar-2002 08:26 GMT
It is interesting to see the low comment-count now that the naysayers
is taking the foot out of their mouths and refrains from showing up ;-)
.
SlimJim
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 21 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 21-Mar-2002 08:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (SlimJim):
Argh... 'refrains == refrain'. I always annoys me when others do that.:-|
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 22 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 21-Mar-2002 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (priest):
I guess whenever Tao add that feature to Elate, plus a few months.
Talking about Lightwave, how much % of the native rendering speed could be achieved in Intent?
Are there any Applications for DE yet?
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 23 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 21-Mar-2002 12:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (leif):
Jose (oh, for the old MS-DOS 'KEYBUI' app that made entering international characters easy) and Leif said:
>>The answer was that Amiga Inc. had NO PLANS to make AmigaOS for x86, and >>that "DE integration" symply meant that AmigaOS would treat DE applications
>>as individual applications, not like in OS4.x, in wich you have DE running as
>>as application.
>Finally, now i understand it. This sounds much like the way
>MorhpOS treats 68k apps. This could make it possible to
>have each de-app memoryprotected as a regular ppc-task.
>It now sounds alot better.
This 'clarification on Amiga.org' was actually the Great Change In Plans announced at the St. Louis show last year. Before that point, Fleecy was focusing on Elate as the One Way Forwards (and the idea is still to get the best of the 'classic' APIs implemented under Elate), and was making the assumption that, as we'd lived this long without memory protection, we really wouldn't mind alternative solutions (using 'safe' languages, etc) to keep the system as lithe as we'd always known it. There was talk of Elate running natively (which it *can* do), and it's my opinion (I'm not an insider by any means, and others might have better insight) that Amiga Inc. held out hope that Tao would focus on native-mode Elate, and finally make the 'breakthrough' with VP that would allow for protected memory, perhaps optionally.
Of course, the community rightly noted that A) compelling applications for launch would come mostly in the form of unsafe C code, to be ported from the classic Amiga or other platforms, and with the subtext that B) when you have memory protection, at least a poorly-written application won't toast your system, but when you rely on a third party to use a safe language and a safe compiler, your system's stability is at their mercy, and should they have been sloppy, or used a buggy compiler, there's nothing you can do but stare at the guru code. That pressure, plus, perhaps, the realization that Tao had wanted to slip those features into VP/Elate for a while but weren't having any luck with it, led to the decision to go with OS4/PowerPC with the eventual grail of OS5 (AmigaNT, in more ways than one).
Sandboxing multiple Elate sessions on top of a protecting OS is, really, the obvious solution (and is exactly what OS/2 did to protect DOS and Win3.x apps from eachother); for all I know, I may've been one of the first people to point that out on the AmiOpen list (well, I think I got in early on that thread; I haven't kept an archive and my memory for such things is shot), but anyone familiar with desktop OSes of the past decade would be familiar with the concept. This does cause fits with interprocess communication, though, so it's still hard to say exactly how they'll implement it. (For the moment, when all you have are PDA games, it's easy enough to just run a second Elate to play Tetris and PlanetZed at the same time; getting your word processor to talk to your PIM in that scenario turns out to be another matter, but if you want the network-abstracted scenario the 'Amiverse' promises, you'd best go with a high-level, standardized message-passing API and live with it...)
Point being, it's a little early for revisionist history on *this* front, and the last I checked, the mythical OS5 still had the possibility of being multiplatform, although I think there have been some noises made about pragmatism (e.g., the first OS5.0 revision might be PPC-only, for all the reasons of development and testing- and, taking a cue from OS/2 NT and Windows NT- if Eyetech, bPlan, Elbox, MAI, and everyone else can make commodity PPC happen in the meantime, there'll be no incentive to 'bother' with x86.)...
If I could remember what article I found this under, I'd try to relate it to it here. :} Instead, I'll just say that we should remember much is still up in the air- in the end, we get what the coders are able to implement. If the world were perfect, we'd all be talking about how grand CAOS was.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 24 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 21-Mar-2002 13:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (darklite):
priest said:
>>The VP in intent supports heterogenous multiprocessing, lightwave would benefit a lot from that kind of feature.
darklite said:
>I guess whenever Tao add that feature to Elate, plus a few months.
I think that it has been used about five years in some Tao products & by their customers.
Are you sure that it is not already in intent, in some form? And just not being utilized in ADK/SDK/DEplayer?
And asian companies are preparing multiprocessor PDAs...
>Talking about Lightwave, how much % of the native rendering speed could be achieved in Intent?
It depends on how good the translator is on that particular CPU/FPU/SSE2/AltiVec unit.
(IIRC, long time ago I read about 60% FPU speed on/of x87 (world's most crappy FPU))
And it depends also on how the usage of native/VPbinary is handled in case heterogenous multiprocessing. (I have no idea)
In theory, nearly 100% is possible, but then in practice even with native code on SMP systems the performance gain is often 80% for the first additiponal CPU, etc... still the 40% of 3Ghz P4 might double G3/600 speed ... ;)
But when talking about lightwave, if you use screamernet SW (or whatever it is nowdays), you do not even need intent, if the renderer is available for all of your CPUs.
>Are there any Applications for DE yet?
Game applications. ;-)
I do not know if these "MP3, MPEG4, Universal Chat, and streaming video" are ready ( http://www.amiga.com/corporate/022202-nokia.shtml ).
Everybody should know that DE player currently offers very little for Desktop user and everybody knows that Amiga is planning DE to be much more than just the player/AA for PDAs.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 25 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 21-Mar-2002 17:58 GMT
> The answer was that Amiga Inc. had NO PLANS to make AmigaOS for x86.
Which would mean they'd stick with the fanatics as a user base...
> Why the hell would you wan't to limit where your applications can be
> run anyway?
Because in the real world, there are licenses. They are quite often given for certain platforms in certain areas of the world. And even if *you* are perfectly willing to do an all-platform application, chances are the competition who payed dearly for a certain MIPS market in Japan will sue you to hell and back if your application runs on MIPS in their home turf.
That's not made up, that's reality.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 26 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 21-Mar-2002 19:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (SlimJim):
That or in absolute shock that offering some future vaporware is enough to cow some of the Amiga users. Hmm, perhaps Mark Barret was right about the Amiga community afterall...
Dammy
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 27 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John on 22-Mar-2002 03:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (darklite):
That was in from the beginning. Byte magazine had an article in 1992, showing a 3d renderer running on top of an Alpha, Intel, and some other chips, without taking any notice of what chips they were running on.
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 28 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 22-Mar-2002 15:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (dammy):
I won't even comment on that obvious flamebait.
.
SlimJim
Clarification from Fleecy : Comment 29 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Mar-2002 17:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Solar):
"Which would mean they'd stick with the fanatics as a user base..."
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