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[News] OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions?ANN.lu
Posted on 09-Apr-2002 14:29 GMT by Christian Kemp211 comments
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catohagen points to this article: OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 1 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 09-Apr-2002 12:31 GMT
woops....i guess the post wrecked the layout?
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=903
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 2 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 09-Apr-2002 12:49 GMT
The writer is a bit misguided. He is politely corrected on a few issues in the comments. He accepts the corrections.
All in all it's a pretty good article until he suggests AmigaOS becomes a Linux distribution.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 3 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 09-Apr-2002 12:59 GMT
It is not a bad article. I have one remark:
The author compare OS migrations between Amiga and Apple:
AmigaOS 3.9 (68k).. 4.0 (ppc) with MacOS 8 (ppc), MacOS 9 (ppc).. OSX (ppc).
This should be MacOS 7 (68k) .. MacOS 8 (ppc).
In that case Apple did support the 68k OS for a while but they pushed hard to move the user on the PPC even if at this time they had 601 PPC at 66 Mhz emulating a lot of 68k code. It was slower than the Quadra 68040.
Hopefully we have now access to fast PPC and JIT emulation that will provide a substantial speed boost.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 4 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by William F. Maddock on 09-Apr-2002 13:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Christophe Decanini):
I must admit that I only skimmed the article, and did not find the comments that are spoken of, but it seems to me that the author is not aware of all of the facts. Apple is a much larger company with more capitol and more personnel. This was even the case in their hard times. Amiga has been getting by on "little more than air" until this past summer/autumn. What they have done, in conjunction with the third parties that are coopoerating with them, is truly remarkable, if not miraculous. That having been said, there are those who will (quite correctly) point out that we should not count our chickens before they are hatched. Personally, I'm headed for the coop. ='D
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 5 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 09-Apr-2002 13:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (redrumloa):
In all reality, it really should have gone as a Linux distro. Before I get flamed, let me point out to a simuliar project, OS-X. If OS-X could do that for Mach kernel, just think what sexy Amiga GUI could have done for Linux.
Dammy
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 6 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 09-Apr-2002 13:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (dammy):
i wouldn't say amiga gui is *that* sexy, a little bit of visualprefs
and perhaps birdie, then it can look damn good..
Im just waiting for the OS4 screenshoots :) I wonder how sexy the gui will
look on those.....i really hope Hyperion release screenshoots around the
date Ben Hermans told the world in the Amiga Expo interview.... :)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 7 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 09-Apr-2002 14:06 GMT
From the article:
"3. Develop the future Amiga OS: The Amiga Digital Environment (a cross platform OS)" and "you have informed the public that you are simultaneously working on both updates to the original Amiga OS and on the next generation Amiga OS, which is referred to as Amiga DE (Digital Environment)."
Darn, Amiga Inc. seriously needs to hire some professional PR-consultant. I mean, how many years is it that Amiga Inc. canceled the idea of basing an OS on Intent? Even among hardcore Amiga-evangelist this caned idea still seems to be the gospel.
Amiga Inc. really needs to clarify:
a) what *is* Amiga Anywhere (formerly known as AmigaDE).
b) what *is* AmigaOS 4
c) what *is* AmigaOS 5
d) what the relationsship, where is the convergence/integration between those 3 *different* projects?
To much misinformation is floating around...
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 8 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 09-Apr-2002 14:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (catohagen):
Be sure that if there is any screenshot in the next days, it will be
some grabs of a 68k OS...
Mmmh, I'm wondering if Hyperion couldn't release some 68k OS first,
with all the intuition, gadtools, hdtoolbox, [...] upgrades they are
doing. They would gain some money and would have time to finish their
AOS4 foundation (the real hard part).
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 9 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 09-Apr-2002 15:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Nicolas Sallin):
> Mmmh, I'm wondering if Hyperion couldn't release some 68k OS first,
>with all the intuition, gadtools, hdtoolbox, [...] upgrades they are
>doing. They would gain some money and would have time to finish their
>AOS4 foundation (the real hard part).
Mmmh....i think Hyperion have stated that OS4 will be PPC only ? Im sure
it would be great if OS4 will run off 68k too, but i'm more for leaving the
68k and move on to new arcitecture, and I would guess the OS4 foundation
is more or less done? why is that the hard part ? we are humans for gods sake :)
we throw people into space and land on the moon :)
a ppc os is peanuts compared to that...
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 10 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by DaveW on 09-Apr-2002 16:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (catohagen):
Returning to 68k would be such a big mistake, they would be mad because it would seriously increase their service costs.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 11 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 09-Apr-2002 16:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Nicolas Sallin):
Hyperion doesn't have the rights to do that a 68K based OS which is a show-stopper for us (unlike for other people).
Due to the illness of one of our developers, the screenshots will be delayed for a few days (until he gets back on his feet).
Don't expect too much people, most of the stuff we are doing (Exec SG, layers, DOS, CDFS, USB stack, FFS2 etc.) doesn't exactly lend itself to visualisation.
We'll put some shots out there because people keep hassling us for those.
They most likely won't have the final look yet because Matt is still working on the new system graphics.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 12 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by THE_Editor on 09-Apr-2002 16:58 GMT
Way to go, Ben. Its great the way you guys listen (to sensible comments) and act where you can.
looking 4ward 2 screenshots
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 13 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by José on 09-Apr-2002 17:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Mekanix):
Exactly. I'm still in doubt if getting a PPC machine or not. What will be the future? In what will I invest? Surely, they now that the people that buy AmigaOS4 are the good classic users? Surely thy won't substitute it (AmigaOS) by something else with the same name, like what was happening in the beggining (AmigaDE as AmigaOS)?!
But I must say I was surprised that Bill taked about AmigaOS4 and AmigaOne on TV. At least he seems to listen the users, something Amiga owners NEVER did. Let's see what time brings...
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 14 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 09-Apr-2002 17:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
So what youre saying is that most likely we will have some screenshots by the end of this month? if its realy not as good as you say yet id wait untill it was if not these screenshots will flow around every news site there is and some people will think its how it will look in the end etc! wait untill its good and ready and dont do the mistake of rushing some screenshots of a half finished project out! at least thats my view on it.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 15 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 09-Apr-2002 17:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Hyperion doesn't have the rights to do that a 68K based OS which is a
>show-stopper for us (unlike for other people).
But what about the considerabel perfecntage of 68k binaries in OS4?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 16 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 09-Apr-2002 18:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (darklite):
I meant the upgraded components of AmigaOS4 are developed using 68k
AmigaOS3.
Until they have a working OS4 foundation, that's a way to develope and
test high level stuffs.
So, the announced "OS4 GUI" screenshoots are from some v50
intuition/gadtool/reaction/whatever running on 68k AmigaOS3
(please Mr.Hermans, correct me if I'm wrong about the used version
number) .
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 17 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by kjetil on 09-Apr-2002 18:16 GMT
Well the letter, what date is letter written, most of this tinges he writes
Amiga Inc has taken about or written about, In his letter is is talking
about Lindows, he is taking about using linux as core for the Amiga OS,
this is not going to be done,
this will slow down the response time in EXEC CG kernel.
as for Lindows it's never going to run on PPC,
it's just linux with pre-installed Wine, as we know wine do not emulate the CPU.
and I do not think AInc is going make an Wine with CPU emulation.
for the Amiga / Linux PPC marked.
And I do agree with this comments 7,5 (X windows is slow) and comment 3
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 18 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 09-Apr-2002 18:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (darklite):
I think you will find that considerable amount to be far less considerable than you think.
Off the top of my hat, the following OS components will be PPC native:
DOS, layers, CLI, AmigaInput, Intuition, Datatypes (system and actual datatypes), salvage and recovery tools, lowlevel.library, most devices, FFS2, TCP/IP stack, Reaction, MUI, archiving-de-arching solution based on XAD, AHI, (most of if not all of) P96 including 2D drivers, 3D API and drivers, OpenGL (Mesa),USB stack, HD Toolbox replacement, AmiDock, Fontlibrary and manager, asl, diskfont, XML.library ...
Doubtlessly I have forgotten countless other smaller and larger components.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 19 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 09-Apr-2002 18:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (darklite):
>But what about the considerabel perfecntage of 68k binaries in OS4?
hmm...what might that be ? the prefs maybe....some cli utils in C: ?
As far as I see it, most stuff that drives the OS will be PPC native,
gfx system(P96), PPC MUI/Reaction, Audio (AHI PPC), filesystem, tcp stack, prexx...
so that leaves the rest of the system based on OS3.9, and since
Hyperion don't work with the OS3.9 sources, they can't recompile 68k
stuff to be OS4 spesific, so OS4 will be bundled with most of the
usual OS3.9 to complete the installation ?
i guess the calculator is still 68k, also Keyshow, showconfig, iconedit, editpad
Utilities/Clock ?....and I dont see why any of these might perform any better
with a G3 ? :)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 20 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 09-Apr-2002 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (catohagen):
Sure Ben was faster with reply, his list was longer, but I had a kid
waking up, and had to leave to put him to sleep :)
(Maybe showing Jurrasic Park III to a 4 year old boy isn't sooo smart....heh)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 21 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 09-Apr-2002 18:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> XML.library
Count me happy! A good shared xml lib available for the programmers... yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 22 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 09-Apr-2002 20:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
The OS may be mostly PPC, but the programs are 95% 68k, and that's the
code that is running most of the time.
Don't forget about SnoopDOS, will you? It is essential that SnoopDOS
should still work - it's impossible to manage an Amiga without it.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 23 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 09-Apr-2002 20:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Don Cox):
> The OS may be mostly PPC, but the programs are 95% 68k, and that's the
> code that is running most of the time.
Since the post that sparked this thread claimed that OS4 would have a
"considerable" amount of 68K code in it, the above comment is 100%
irrelevant.
> Don't forget about SnoopDOS, will you? It is essential that SnoopDOS
> should still work - it's impossible to manage an Amiga without it.
I managed one without it until maybe a couple of years ago, but it surely
is a good thing to have, it's true.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 24 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 09-Apr-2002 21:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>I think you will find that considerable amount to be far less considerable than
>you think.
And again you manage to avoid the actual point.
Fact: OS4 will contain 68k binaries, yet you have no licence to do 68k stuff.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 25 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by ikez on 09-Apr-2002 23:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (darklite):
sometimes i'm wonder if u have a brain darklite. U must have some personnal probs with Hyperion, isn't it?
ikez
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 26 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 10-Apr-2002 00:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (ikez):
A lot of people have :-)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 27 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Amigan Software on 10-Apr-2002 01:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Nicolas Sallin):
I certainly don't have any problems with Hyperion, I wish them all the best. In fact it seems H&P, Hyperion and Eyetech are the main companies helping the Amiga. Amiga themselves seem bent on destroying the community; witness their unprovoked attacks against H&P, etc.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 28 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 10-Apr-2002 05:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (José):
> Exactly. I'm still in doubt if getting a
> PPC machine or not. What will be the future?
> In what will I invest?
It's quite easy. Do you *need* the features of OS4? These will the only difference between OS4 and OS3.9/m68k, OS3.9/x86 and MorphOS. And as I've understood it, most softwarevendors will continue to release OS3.9/m68k binaries to be crossplatform (OS4, Amithlon and MorphOS). So you'll possible not loose out much whichever platform you choose.
Question then is who of those 3 competitors gets native ports as well if you're looking for speed. Technically Amithlon ought to get every ported, since it's API is "identical" and merely requires a recompile (with a few patches). But politics will propably show that either OS4 or MOS gets the larger share of native ports.
And don't expect any of Hyperions vintage-games to run on either Amithlon or MOS.
Now, will you buy into another expensive computer (PPC) to fill your needs for the next 2+ years until OS5 is ready. Or will you current cheap x86 w. Amithlon be enough to satisfy you needs?
> Surely thy won't substitute it (AmigaOS)
> by something else with the same name
Yes they will, that's the whole purpose of OS5, creating a modern legacy-free OS (remember, OS4 will run in a sandbox).
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 29 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 10-Apr-2002 05:15 GMT
darklite wrote:
And again you manage to avoid the actual point.
Fact: OS4 will contain 68k binaries, yet you have no licence to do 68k stuff.
Amigan Software wrote:
Amiga themselves seem bent on destroying the community; witness their unprovoked attacks against H&P, etc.
ROTFLOL, you guys take the price.
/Björn
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 30 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 10-Apr-2002 06:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (the man in the shadows):
>Count me happy! A good shared xml lib available for the programmers... yeah,
>that's what I'm talking about.
What programming API does it support? DOM? If it's just some custom API then it'll be completely useless.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 31 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 10-Apr-2002 06:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Mekanix):
>Yes they will, that's the whole purpose of OS5, creating a modern legacy-free
>OS (remember, OS4 will run in a sandbox).
Exactly, so what is the point of them putting in so much effort into OS4 when AmigaOS technology will cease to be actively developed (other than in name) very soon, when OS5 comes along.
SAVE AMIGAOS TECHNOLOGY!
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 32 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 10-Apr-2002 06:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (smithy):
Because that is what they were asked to do.
/Björn
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 33 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by José on 10-Apr-2002 07:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Mekanix):
"Yes they will, that's the whole purpose of OS5, creating a modern legacy-free OS (remember, OS4 will run in a sandbox)."
This is really what matters. Everybody seems to be happy and forget they don't know bull about what is coming up next.
Still why so much effort in OS4 really?
Legacy-free? Come on, OS4 is legacy free!
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 34 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 10-Apr-2002 08:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (José):
> Legacy-free? Come on, OS4 is legacy free!
José, you *MUST* be joking.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 35 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 10-Apr-2002 08:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (darklite):
Darklite/Brecht:
I don't even know why I'm answering you because the answer is so obvious that I wonder sometimes if you're playing dumb just to irritate me.
>And again you manage to avoid the actual point.
>Fact: OS4 will contain 68k binaries, yet you have no licence to do 68k stuff.
Hyperion doesn't have a license to RELEASE a 68K based AmigaOS.
However, Hyperion does have a full source-code license to use and modify AmigaOS 3.1 and all NEWLY DEVELOPED parts of 3.5 and 3.9 not done by H&P.
We can therefore release the entire OS running under 68K emulation if we would be stupid enough to want to do that.
I believe I have said this over and over again, it's time to pay attention.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 36 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 10-Apr-2002 08:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (smithy):
It's a complete fallacy to think that OS 5 is going to put an end to the technology developed for OS 4.
This is simply not the case. In fact, OS 4 is developed exactly so that OS 5 can build on it.
With respect to the people pointing out that most of your old applications are 68K and that therefore will not benefit much from OS 4, this is simply wrong.
- These applications will benefit from the new services that OS 4 will have to offer. No application "lives" in a void, the OS is being called on all the time to provide services. These services will be more secure, a lot faster and will look better/be customisable (when applicable).
Just one example: context-sensitive popup-menus.
- Our new library interface allows developers to migrate their codebase to OS 4 incrementally so that they can start with the most performance critical parts first. There is no need to move the entire codebase of an application to OS 4 immediately, it's not an "all or nothing" proposition.
Take a rendering package for instance. The developer could limit itself to porting one single module that does the actual calculation to OS 4. The speed-up would be dramatic but the actual effort required would be minimal.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 37 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 10-Apr-2002 08:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hello Ben
Are you hoping to be responsible for OS 5 too?
You didn't answer the question about SnoopDOS. This is quite
important.
I am pleased to see there will be a new version of ARexx, although it
is a pity that Bill Hawes himself could not do it. ARexx was written
in C before being converted to assembler.
Will there be a compiler this time?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 38 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 10-Apr-2002 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (José):
"Legacy-free? Come on, OS4 is legacy free!"
Eh...WHAT?
Besides, how come everyone are so _sure_ that OS5 will come out in two years time? Timetables have a tendancy to slide quite a lot (which some of you might've noticed). In the meantime, for those interested in boosting old or buying new PPC HW, OS4 might do the trick.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 39 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Kent Seaton on 10-Apr-2002 08:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (smithy):
> What programming API does it support? DOM? If it's just some custom API then
> it'll be completely useless.
Are you sure you know what you are saying? The Document Object Model is a component of html rather than XML. XML can have a Document Object Model but XML is a descriptor of Document Object Model rather than the other way around. XML defines how a document looks and acts, the DOM (Document Object Model) can be manipulated through use of scripting languages or XML definitions through the TLD (Tag Library Documents). Each Document relies on the DOM to display a standard where XML can redefine components of the DOM through the use of XSLT or XML accompanied by DTD (Document Type Descriptors) or TLD (Tag Library Documents). XML started out as a custom API which was completely useless... look at how completely useless XML is after it's extremely short lifespan. My suggestion is to look up some of the material and do some research on it before spouting nonsense and besides, an XML lib is going to be completely useless to anyone who doesn't use/program software requiring/utilizing XML standards.
Think about it.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 40 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 10-Apr-2002 08:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Don Cox):
We currently have no ambitions regarding OS 5.
Even OS 4 was forced upon us by the circumstances. It was either us doing it or seeing the platform die. We don't believe in hardware/software monopolies nor do we believe in any products not carrying the Amiga name to stand even the remotest chance of being successful.
SnoopDos: no need to worry. We use that all the time as well.
>I am pleased to see there will be a new version of ARexx, although it
>is a pity that Bill Hawes himself could not do it. ARexx was written
>in C before being converted to assembler.
Well, I am aware of the way that Commodore shafted the guy and he vowed never to have anything to do with the Amiga again. I believe AREXX is based on the scripting language REXX developed for mainframes by IBM.
Luckily Thomas Richter is as good as they come so this is in good hands.
>Will there be a compiler this time?
Good question. I'll ask. BTW: the re-implementation of AREXX won't make it in the first release of OS 4, it will come later. This is also why you won't find that in the Executive update.
Thomas Richter is currently too busy with layers. I'm happy to report that windows can be moved off-screen now.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 41 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Kent Seaton on 10-Apr-2002 09:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> I'm happy to report that windows can be moved off-screen now.
I know you don't have time for stupid questions Ben but I think this one is as stupid as they get...
"How would you get to the windows moved off screen by the keyboard-mouse movements or bad workbench-arexx window placements?"
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 42 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 10-Apr-2002 09:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Kent Seaton):
Aha, yes. You should have seen the discussion about that a few weeks ago on the OS 4 mailing list.
We're planning some keyboard shortcuts to move windows back on screen and also a commodity which will allow you to do that.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 43 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 10-Apr-2002 09:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Kent Seaton):
Now have a *little* faith in the Hyperion guys...
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 44 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Kent Seaton on 10-Apr-2002 09:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Solar):
> Now have a *little* faith in the Hyperion guys...
Yeah I know, I have great faith in their efforts, but I'm sure that if it wasn't asked it would have been repeated an infinite amount ad naseum. That's why I used quotes, I could already hear that phrase echo down the halls. There is a main() method to my madness, hence the shadows forray.
BTW Ben, I would have studied it more but the discussion was so in depth it was passed up for the other multiple hundreds of email messages I get a day, I.E. subject line has nothing to do with the subject matter. *cough*
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 45 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by José on 10-Apr-2002 09:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Solar):
No, isn't it abstracted from legacy 68k hardware now? So what's the problem? I must say I'm not an expert in any had or sof, but at least I'm a good listener and admit my ignorance, well sometimes:).You were refering to problems in getting memory protection for example? But I read somewhere, (don't remeber where) that it is possible to do that, only that the effort would be too big.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 46 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Apr-2002 09:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Thomas Richter is currently too busy with layers. I'm happy to report that >windows can be moved off-screen now.
AWESOME! This is one thing that has always annoyed me! C@@L :-D
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 47 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Mekanix on 10-Apr-2002 09:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> Even OS 4 was forced upon us by the
> circumstances. It was either us doing
> it or seeing the platform die.
Eh? Revisionism anyone?
> We don't believe in hardware/software
> monopolies
Huh? Are you suffering from some sort of amnesia?
"What would be the consequences of a native x86 for Amiga
developers?
In one word: disastrous. A native x86 Amiga OS would spell the end of all
serious commercial development for Amiga OS."
That was from your famous lash against Amithlon back in august. Tell me how this isn't protectionism and monopolistic politics?
> nor do we believe in any products
> not carrying the Amiga name to stand
> even the remotest chance of being
> successful.
Ahh... and here amigans have been fighting for decades to define whether it's the OS or the HW that makes an Amiga... when in reality it's just the name! ;)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 48 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 10-Apr-2002 10:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (José):
> No, isn't it abstracted from legacy 68k hardware now?
That doesn't make it "legacy free".
To define the term "legacy". The DOS layer of AmigaOS was an adaption of Metacomco Tripos, which was written in BCPL. BCPL does not address memory byte wise, but word wise - a C pointer had to be divided by 4 to be turned into a BCPL pointer. Some related confusion arose from BCPL strings.
AmigaOS 3.1 no longer contained *any* BCPL code. But for the API to remain compatible, the BCPL artifacts (BCPL strings and BCPL pointers) still remained in there.
That's a "legacy". (Like A20 gate...)
> So what's the problem?
That AmigaOS 4.0 is designed to be AmigaOS 3.x compatible, and as such contains legacies.
I don't say that it will be crap or whatever, but the claim that OS 4 will be "legacy free" is just false.
> You were refering to problems in getting memory protection for example?
> But I read somewhere, (don't remeber where) that it is possible to do
> that, only that the effort would be too big.
That's another legacy. ;-)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 49 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 10-Apr-2002 10:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Solar):
The BPCL legacy will be removed from DOS library.
It's too horrific for words.
And no, this won't break SnoopDos because SnoopDOS hooks into the library jump table created by exec. It never bothered about the BCPL interface.
One should draw a distinction between "legacy" that stands in the way of new functionality or stability and legacy that allows you to draw on a large existing code-base which doesn't present any serious limitations.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 50 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 10-Apr-2002 10:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Solar):
I certainly don't want a legacy-free OS, as it would be unable to run
any existing Amiga software.
One of the more interesting ideas that has come up is the possibilty
of including a transparent call to UAE when a program such as DPaint
is started.
The more programs you can run, the better. A legacy-free OS has no
software, or hardly any. (QNX, AmigaDE).
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