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[News] Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 AnnouncementANN.lu
Posted on 16-Apr-2002 12:04 GMT by Christian Kemp129 comments
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"tmo" quotes a message from Alan Redhouse, Eyetech CEO, taken from AmigaONE mailing-list and posted on AmigArt: On ann and elsewhere there has been a lot of speculation about the nature of the ROM modifications to allow the A1-G3 (and any subsequent Amiga inc approved models) to run OS4+. As most people here will realise we have always declared that we want to use the official Amiga OS and for Hyperion and Amiga to have their just rewards for licencing the AmigaOne and OS4 products. [..]
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 1 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 16-Apr-2002 10:35 GMT
Please try to not make one more big hate treadh.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 2 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 16-Apr-2002 10:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (4pLaY):
Damn AROS! It's far too fun to play with! GAH! They should be sued or something!
;o)
/Björn
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 3 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 16-Apr-2002 10:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (4pLaY):
I agree with comment 1. Can't we have a 'We love Amiga developers' thread.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 4 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 16-Apr-2002 11:06 GMT
i love you all amiga demo coders
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 5 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 16-Apr-2002 11:34 GMT
Amiga inc sticking up for the os . no problem with that. If microsoft could do that on x86 boxs they would ;).
Go amiga :)
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 6 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 16-Apr-2002 11:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
A good idea, let's have it for all those trying to make a difference. :-)
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 7 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 16-Apr-2002 11:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Samface):
how about a coders / learning coders amigaOS port team sign-up thread ;)
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 8 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 16-Apr-2002 11:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (cOrpse):
*amigaOS porting team (as in porting stuff to amigaOS :D )
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 9 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous coward on 16-Apr-2002 12:16 GMT
>This tight anti-piracy regime has obviously upset some individuals on the
>mailing lists who clearly did not expect to have to pay for OS4,
What's this ahole talking about. We want to _buy_ and support OS4 and the Amiga
market in general, but no wierdo ROM that makes a redesign of e.g. Pegasos
neccessary. Someone proposed a USB token as dongle, why not try this one?
>or hoped to buy unapproved/unlicenced PPC Linux boards to save a few bucks.
Huh? As far as I understand Alan, there will be the possibility to buy OS4+ROM
as upgrade kit if you bought the Eyetech Linux-only board first.
Can you decide to buy OS4 later, or not?
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 10 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 16-Apr-2002 12:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (anonymous coward):
1. The licence is free of charge.
2. No kind of redesign of the hardware is required for just adding OS4-specific extensions in the hardware's boot ROM.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 11 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 16-Apr-2002 12:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (anonymous coward):
if other boards want to run os 4 all they have to do is contact amiga and talk about it and not expect amiga to just give it up for free ;). Can`t see a problem with that , it means that crappy badly made hardware doesn`t make os 4 look bad. Its much like the designed for windows stickers on some pc`s , microsofts seal that the machine passed their standards IIRC ( if they have ne hehe. )
the protection shows how much amiga is taking amiga os seriously now and i don`t see ne one complaining about progs like 3d max having super protection ( arse to crack too ) their just protecting their interests from being available for free to quickly.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 12 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 16-Apr-2002 12:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (anonymous coward):
>>This tight anti-piracy regime has obviously upset some individuals on the
>>mailing lists who clearly did not expect to have to pay for OS4,
>What's this ahole talking about. We want to _buy_ and support OS4 and the Amiga
>market in general, but no wierdo ROM that makes a redesign of e.g. Pegasos
>neccessary.
Are you one of "those" individuals on AmigaOne list????? It's AMIGAONE list after all!
>Someone proposed a USB token as dongle, why not try this one?
Hopefully pegasos guys are currently making official suggestions about it (or about other as good alternatives) to AmigaInc & Hyperion, right!?
btw. is the USB dongle in a fixed memory address of the PPC?
>>or hoped to buy unapproved/unlicenced PPC Linux boards to save a few bucks.
>Huh? As far as I understand Alan, there will be the possibility to buy OS4+ROM
>as upgrade kit if you bought the Eyetech Linux-only board first.
>Can you decide to buy OS4 later, or not?
Yes. That's what Alan said, read the original text. Do not just try to ridicule it.
The point is. You can not run copied/pirated OS4 on the LinuxOne, you need OS4 ROM chip/dongle.
(IMHO: There will be a solution, if Hyperion want's extra money from the sales of Amiga compatible pegasos boards and if bplan is interested in selling to diehard "Amiga" fans.)
I most likely will be playing with both of those boards, so I really do not care much about this sillyness... perhaps I've grown used to it.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 13 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by acg on 16-Apr-2002 12:44 GMT
As long as the system works as promised, and allows us to upgrade our
older Amiga's to something more modern, the price of the board and OS
is not a bad deal....if someone wants all this work done and risk taken
for free, they had better forget it....
Not to mention, we still have an "upgrade" path to Amiga Anywhere and
AmigaOS5 as a possibility...(also some bright coder may even do a Mac Clone...
or a PC emulator, so that is good also....
I hope OS4 multitasks as well as the older Amiga OS's....
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 14 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 16-Apr-2002 12:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Samface):
>2. No kind of redesign of the hardware is required for just adding OS4-
>specific extensions in the hardware's boot ROM.
They didn't chose this way. Redhouse speaks about a socketed hardware rom.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 15 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 16-Apr-2002 13:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (acg):
"I hope OS4 multitasks as well as the older Amiga OS's...."
I don't. I expect a native PPC version of exec to run alot faster. :-P But I guess it won't be noticable to the human eye. ;-)
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 16 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 16-Apr-2002 13:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (David Scheibler):
Doesn't the pegasos have a ROM already? What a shame... :-P ;-)
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 17 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 16-Apr-2002 13:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Samface):
>Doesn't the pegasos have a ROM already? What a shame... :-P ;-)
It doesn't have space for a second ROM besides OpenFirmware. Hyperion could
easily make extensions to the OF, they don't want to but are instead using a
custom made hardware ROM.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 18 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 16-Apr-2002 13:17 GMT
More ideas for the dongled OS4 upgrade:
- dongle in serialized Radeons (sold as Radeon8500+OS4 package)
- dongle or ROM socket on the CPU card (sold as ... package)
- dongle on memory DIMM card (yes, this is a real bad idea... unless the dongle also has 256Mb of 133Mhz SDRAM) (...)
- dongle in the PCI-A1200 bridge card (...)
- dongle in a Amiga floppy/keyboard/joystic adapter (...)
- dongle in a "AGA on a PCI card" -solution (...)
No problem. Just do it!
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 19 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 16-Apr-2002 13:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Samface):
It's an additional ROM chip, not the (OpenFirmware) BIOS.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 20 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 16-Apr-2002 13:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (David Scheibler):
I'm sure that there could be other removable hardware dongle formats available
for the Pegasus to suggest to AInc if they really wanted to run AOS4?
(Ah- Priest have already lined up a few!)
.
SlimJim
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 21 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 16-Apr-2002 13:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (priest):
>is the USB dongle in a fixed memory address of the PPC?
Not sure, normally these things work as secure digital signature carrier.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 22 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Mad Dr. Z on 16-Apr-2002 14:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (cOrpse):
Personally, I think the rom idea is a little childish, but on the other hand I can understand wishing to protect ones profit.
The unmentioned part of this is all ways that it is a catch22. You will offent and/or drive off possible users that do not feel like screw with such protections, but on the other hand you will be protecting your product from pirates for a short while.
Personally if it involves screwing with dongles or other BS, I choose something else 99.99% of the time.
The idea that it will protect the product from pirates is all so redic since like most other things it can be copied/cracked/other.
The idea that some one has to buy cetefied hardware is really inmature. Most of the stuff I like to run tends to be hardware that is either little known or commonly considered impossible/impractical for some redic reason. Being in this catagory leaves me feeling a little anooyed with the rom idea.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 23 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 16-Apr-2002 14:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (priest):
An USB-Device can't be ad a physical address of
PPC as USB is a mulri-device serial bus.
But a (good) USB-token is harder to copy than any
rom. Remember those Kick-Switches that could take
EPROMS ? Even sofkicking could work.
A real Dongle has a encryption so you can't say
whats the right answer to the question (code) is
that is send by the OS, as these codes would change
on a basis of date/up-time/sys-config/???.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 24 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Mad Dr. Z on 16-Apr-2002 14:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Kronos):
Personally I see the rom,depending, as a more secure and possible more mature than the use of a dongle.
The software has to look for a dongle. The problem with that is, it can be jumpered, be modifinging the code to jump of the part that checks for the dongle.
The are ways to prevent this, but those can be cracked by more better patches. All in all, it is just a on going conflict between the coders and the cracks, which in the long run starts to run into issues of pointlessness.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 25 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 16-Apr-2002 14:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Mad Dr. Z):
A ROM can be copied by everyone who has a EPROM-programmer.
To copy a REAL dongle you would first need to understand how
it works and that down to every tiny detail.
As far as i understand ther won't be any OS-functions in this
ROM. Instead the OS will jump into/read specified addresses
of the ROM when certain functions (like OpenWindow or ReplyMSG)
are called to check if the ROM is still.These calls could be
patched by a hacker just like everything else (burning a "new"
ROM would still be much easier).
On a real dongle it wouldn't jump into the ROM but would send
random numbers to the dongle and then check the answer.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 26 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 16-Apr-2002 15:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Kronos):
>A ROM can be copied by everyone who has a EPROM-programmer.
Provided that there are EPROM that fit on the ROM socket. (remember lack of EPROMS suitable for kicstart pirating)
As Alan said, it is possible to copy the ROM HW, but it will be troublesome enough, etc...
And for example I do not know anyone who owns EPROM programmer (at least not modern enough).
>To copy a REAL dongle you would first need to understand how
it works and that down to every tiny detail.
Better just go around the checking part of the OS/application SW.
>As far as i understand ther won't be any OS-functions in this ROM.
I bet it will not be announced publickly what remains in ROM. (I thought there will be some OS bits and pieces in the ROM.)
>Instead the OS will jump into/read specified addresses of the ROM when certain
>functions (like OpenWindow or ReplyMSG) are called to check if the ROM is
>still.These calls could be patched by a hacker just like everything else
I think Alan addressed also this issue somewhere.
IMO: it is more difficult to go around in the OS/SW binary than the code that checks traditional dongle.
>(burning a "new" ROM would still be much easier).
And HW pirate is a bit easier to hunt down.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 27 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 16-Apr-2002 15:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (priest):
>IMO: it is more difficult to go around in the OS/SW
>binary than the code that checks traditional dongle
Sorry to say this ;)
Seems you got no idea how a modern dongle works !
The messaging between SW and dongle is just as save as PGP
or any other encryption SW. You can make multiple calls
from several places of the OS (just like those to the ROM)
and a hacker would need to replace every single one in a
way that the "question" is always answered "yes".
And about those EPROMs:
Thats why i refered to those Kick-switches that could take
2 or 4 standard 1Mbit-EPROMs (summing up to 256 or 512kb).
I still got one of those (self-build) programmers around
that i used to make an autoboot-card for my old OMTI-RLL-
controller.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 28 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Klauke on 16-Apr-2002 15:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (David Scheibler):
SF>>>> 2. No kind of redesign of the hardware is required for just adding OS4-
SF>>>> specific extensions in the hardware's boot ROM.
Obviously Alan Redhouse can only talk about his own AmigaOne G3-SE design. So
the special socketet ROM (no flash) is the solution for the AmigaOne. There
may be other solutions for other hardware when its designer is willing to talk
to AmigaInc. to license his board for use with AmigaOS4. There will be a
solution if everyone wants one.
D >>> They didn't chose this way. Redhouse speaks about a socketed hardware rom.
SF>> Doesn't the pegasos have a ROM already? What a shame... :-P ;-)
D > It doesn't have space for a second ROM besides OpenFirmware. Hyperion could
D > easily make extensions to the OF, they don't want to but are instead using a
D > custom made hardware ROM.
Neither Alan Redhouse nor I nor any other individual out here not involved in
bPlan's Pegasos design can tell how this could be achieved by them. Is the OF
ROM flashable? If not there seems to be no problem. Hyperion OTOH will do
_anything_ that ensures that AmigaOS4 is _sold_ a copy more, or two, don't
you think? ;-)
Ciao, Alex
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 29 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Klauke on 16-Apr-2002 15:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Kronos):
> A ROM can be copied by everyone who has a EPROM-programmer.
Alan Redhouse has not denied this issue. But if someone is doing this and
burning/pirating 100 ROMs and giving 'em away, it will be more easy to find this
person. OTOH those dongle code will be called from AmigaOS4 multiple times so
that there is rather a minimal chance to crack/free AmigaOS4 from every single
such ROM call.
It is all about _minimizing_ unauthorized copies of AmigaOS4, you may not
be able to prevent every illegal copy of it, but you can make it as hard as
possible to copy.
Ciao, Alex
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 30 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by DaveW on 16-Apr-2002 15:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Alex Klauke):
My god someone who actually read through Alans press release? Quick give me a pin and some formaldehyde!
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 31 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by DaveW on 16-Apr-2002 15:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Kronos):
The best hardware protection scheme Ive seen uses public key encryption. The message that is supplied to the hardware is encoded in its public key and signed in the OS routines private key. The data that is transmitted is entropic and the conversation is incredibly hard to crack and nigh impossible to deny authentication.
I think I got that the wrong way round .. its been a long day.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 32 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Tilsted on 16-Apr-2002 15:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Alex Klauke):
But this is no way to minimize the copy, because just one person have to break the encryption, and then anyone on the internet who want AOS4 can have it.
Why don't they just accept the fact that any software that is running on a "general purpose computer" can be cracked.
I think it will take < 1 month before somoene crack AmigaOS4 but ofcasue, we could make it an poll: How long does it take before one can obtain AmigaOS4 on the internet? (My vote is for 14-30 days)
Martin Tilsted
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 33 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 16-Apr-2002 15:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (DaveW):
Thats what i've been talking about.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 34 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 16-Apr-2002 16:14 GMT
the topic is only a fraction of the whole post.
On ann and elsewhere there has been a lot of speculation about the nature of the ROM modifications to allow the A1-G3 (and any subsequent Amiga inc approved models) to run OS4 +
As most people here will realise we have always declared that we want to use the official Amiga OS and for Hyperion and Amiga to have their just rewards for licencing the AmigaOne and OS4 products. We are not the only possible licencees, but I guess that we committed to these conditions before anyone else. As a result we have worked in very close cooperation with both Amiga Inc and Hyperion throughout the A1 development program to ensure that piracy of OS4 is kept to a minimum. Jointly we have worked out that the best way to
do this is :..."
- To put ROM extensions (ie dongle code) in the boot ROM, in addition to the regular boot code.
- To put this in hard-coded, socketed ROM at a specific address in the PPC memory map, rather than in Flash ROM, which could easily be pirated/updated
- To ensure that OS4 calls this code from multiple points to make workround patches difficult to implement
- To ensure that a copy of OS4 is sold with all hardware capable of running it (ie with the dongle code in ROM)
- To use similar routines that already exist in the 3.1 Kickstart ROM as an alternative for the PPC accelerator implementations.
Although a dedicated pirate could no doubt copy the boot code and dupe the ROM's, unless this was to be done in bulk - which would be easy to spot and close down - the overheads involved versus buying the ROM would mean few people would be likely to do it. The situation is analagous to OS3.1/3.5/3.9 in that you had to have/buy 3.1 ROMs to run the OS, unless you go to extraordinary work-around lengths.
We are producing all the developer/dealer boards and at least the first run of user boards with this dongle code in place in the ROM - and therefore the obligation to purchase OS4 with them. (They can of course be used to run Linux, but you will still need to buy OS4 with these boards). If there is sufficient demand from the Linux comunity we will probably then produce some boards without the AmigaOne name (and without the dongle code needed for booting OS4). In this case we will also make available an OS4 + ROM upgrade pack (similar to the OS3.5/3.9 +3.1ROMs upgrade packs sold by most Amiga
Dealers) to purchasers of the Linux-only boards wishing to upgrade to OS4.
As far as other licenced stand-alone ppc hardware is concerned, it would, in my view, need to support a similar protection format (ie socketed hard coded ROM, not Flash ROM) to embody the same level of anti-piracy protection as The A1G3-SE. Whether, in the specific cases of other hardware manufacturers, this socketed ROM has already been implemented, or remains an option, or requires a partial redesign of the hardware is not something that I have any knowledge of. It is between Amiga Inc and the potential licencees concerned.
This tight anti-piracy regime has obviously upset some individuals on the
mailing lists who clearly did not expect to have to pay for OS4, or hoped to buy unapproved/unlicenced PPC Linux boards to save a few bucks. Well tough, we dont want your business under those circumstances and will do all in our power to make sure that if you buy one of our boards for Linux-only use you will not be able to use it for running OS4+ unless you are prepared to pay Hyperion and Amiga Inc their proper licence fees.
And I'm sure that all other potential serious licencees of endorsed Amiga
hardware will see it this way too."
Alan Redhouse, Eyetech CEO
Taken from AmigaONE mailing-list
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 35 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Remco Komduur on 16-Apr-2002 16:46 GMT
I'm all for the plans that have been made for the AOne and OS 4. I'm verry keen on getting a sort of Kickstart ROM again and because there is a FlashBIOS there is no drawback for that design anymore.
I'm also all for it to make sure that OS 4 gets sold with every AOne because you can bet your sweet ass that if no design was implemented to guarantee that, then OS4 and AOne sales would quickly go out of sync.
The AOne was never intended for Linux and if you only have an Amiga to buy hardware and no software then it's best that you leave.
And on another note. I am a current PPC owner. I have a BlizzardPPC but the current PPC owners don't have a very good history in buying software. OS 4 is THE biggest software upgrade for those boards because the speed WILL be great. I'm going to buy it and so for once I hope that the majority of the CyberStormPPC and BlizzardPPC owners will too.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 36 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 16-Apr-2002 17:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Remco Komduur):
>I'm going to buy it and so for once I hope that the majority of the CyberStormPPC and BlizzardPPC owners will too.
I do hope so too, as for me i'm gonna need 2 copies of os4, one for my current
blizzppc system, and one for my amigaOne system...but I will wait and
play with amigaOne system first...
I'm still waiting for some nifty screenshoots of OS4, as stated by Hyperion,
the visualprefs guy is doing some stuff for the GUI, and the screenshots
should contain some of his work, or they should wait with the screenshoots
until some improved UI stuff is done/visible
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 37 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 16-Apr-2002 17:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (DaveW):
We know some dongles that are pretty much uncrackable but also expensive as hell (35+ USD per unit).
I think it should also be clarified that we insisted on the OEM scheme because it simplifies the logistics of delivering OS 4 packages.
Hyperion has no distribution experience and no "warehouses", we've always worked with a publisher.
In any case, I'm slightly bemused at the fact that some people seem to make such a fuss out of an OEM model (which does allow you to get the packages cheaper BTW) whilst EVERY new Amiga I have ever bought always came with an OS.
For the sake of tradition alone, this would almost be sufficient.
Seriously, it does eliminate a lot of hassle, cuts down on piracy (to some extent or another) and generally is cheaper for the consumer.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 38 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by .jon on 16-Apr-2002 18:32 GMT
To me it seems more like this: All want AmigaOS4.x. Much less want the AmigaONE of Eyetech.
There needs to be a way to make sure, AmigaOS won't run on any other hardware (i.e. PEGASOS) than AmigaONE (I do not count for those tiny soutions like Shark, since it is not a replacement for a full ATX mobo.)
Now we get tied to AmigaONE, the product Eyetech had so much trouble and expenses getting to work.
Just like Microsoft: The inferior product gets a monopoly enforced, so it is superior on the market..
"This tight anti-piracy regime has obviously upset some individuals on the
mailing lists who clearly did not expect to have to pay for OS4, or hoped to buy unapproved/ unlicenced PPC Linux boards to save a few bucks."
"
For me (and most other reasonable Amiga lovers) it was always clear that I will pay my AmigaOS4.x, But it was also clear as water to me that I won't buy this pathetic AmigaONE. Instead I wanted AmigaOS4.x on PEGASOS.
What do they achieve ? With me nothing.
To the contrary ! The "anti-piracy campaign" led me to *not* pay for OS4.x at all. Why ? Because, as it seems, AmigaOS >3.9 is for me out of question, it has become unreachable. On which hardare will it run now ?! As said, I won't spend my money on AmigaONE, I don't have a PPC board. Well, *eventually* I will buy now a Shark...
I might be wrong. Of course. But the facts are clear:
AmigaOS4.x became unreachable for me.
P.S. A short time after release the warez-scene will happily swap AmigaOS4.x...this is life...
...as it has done with Lightwave (Toaster), Brilliance (Dongle) and many more. It will need some time and a skilled coder, but once it is done, it will spread like free beer.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 39 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 16-Apr-2002 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (.jon):
>>There needs to be a way to make sure, AmigaOS won't run on any other hardware (i.e. PEGASOS) than AmigaONE (I do not count for those tiny soutions like Shark, since it is not a replacement for a full ATX mobo.)
The CANNOT be an OS4 for the Pegasos until bPlan get off their butts and send Hyperion the motherboard they ordered months ago. No motherboardno development. And now: No signature on a FREE distribution agreement = no development.
Don't whine at Amiga Inc and Hyperion for not providing OS4 for the Pegasos - whine at bPlan.
Idiots guide to what bPlan has to do to get OS4:
1. Sign the FREE agreement with Amiga Inc.
2. Agree to provide the customers that want OS4 on their Pegasos with a copy of OS4 and a hareware dongle and the time of purchase.
3. Send Hyperion a board so they can write/test OS4 for it.
4. (And this is the hard one) Stick to the agreement.
Idiots guide to bPlan about how NOT to get OS4.
1. Don't sign any agreements with Amiga Inc.
2. Ignore your "potential" customers' wishes.
3. Don't send Hyperion a Pegasos board.
4. Undermine Hyperion by offering Fleecy a $25,000 bribe to pull out of any agreements with Hyperion/Eyetech and then get into bed with bPan.
Here's a BIG tip guys... if a prostitute ever offers YOU $25,000 to sleep with HER then either refuse or wear a condom made out of steel... because I guarantee she has the worst case of "The Clap" known to man!!!
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 40 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 16-Apr-2002 19:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (.jon):
> There needs to be a way to make sure, AmigaOS won't run on any other hardware
> (i.e. PEGASOS) than AmigaONE (I do not count for those tiny soutions like
> Shark, since it is not a replacement for a full ATX mobo.)
Well since anyone can get their board AmigaOS compliant, including bPlan if they desire to, and Merlancia will be when their hardware is ready, then we can already see the start of a Pegasos troll.
> Now we get tied to AmigaONE, the product Eyetech had so much trouble and
> expenses getting to work.
No they didn't. Where did you get that from? Admit it, you don't know what you are talking about, or you are a Pegasos troll.
> For me (and most other reasonable Amiga lovers) it was always clear that I
> will pay my AmigaOS4.x, But it was also clear as water to me that I won't buy
> this pathetic AmigaONE. Instead I wanted AmigaOS4.x on PEGASOS.
What makes the AmigaOne pathetic compared to the Pegasos? The latter is neatly laid out, yes, but on the other hand where is it?
> It will need some time and a skilled coder, but once it is done, it will
> spread like free beer.
A skilled criminal you mean. Yes, I am sure that some person with no life will take it upon themselves to "free" AmigaOS4 from the ROM dongle. Find all the code that calls the dongle and overwrite it with NOPs or whatever to nullify it. And then reimplement the code that is in the ROM that they have just NOPped out. And then after all that work on software they have paid for, release it on the Internet for other pirates to use. They will then spend ages downloading an ISO images and burning a CD with the OS on, then get an OS that might work if the cracker got all of the calls first time around and implemented the missing calls correctly. And they managed to get around the new memory protection in the OS that could make it extremely hard for non-kernel processes to access the ROM as well. Yes, the person would be skilled.
I take it these pirates would mainly be using Pegasos', because everyone with an AmigaOne will have a legal copy of OS4. I also take it that you intend to be one of these pirates when it becomes available?
And if AmigaOS4 is hacked quickly, then expect to see ZERO new companies developing for the Amiga or Amiga-likes in a hurry. They will take one look at the platform, already pirated to hell, and go "no way!". Pirating OS4 could very well mean the end of the future of the Amiga (and Amiga-likes).
Graham
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 41 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 16-Apr-2002 19:19 GMT
Am I the only one who's missing how this prevents piracy in any appreciable sense?
It works for OS4.0, but for the eventual point releases, either everyone needs a new ROM (and better make sure you're booting the right point release for your hardware), or any updates (4.1, 4.2...) could be copied illegally.
Meanwhile, it puts the Pegasos version on greater delay, fragments OS4 (AmigaOne OEM, Pegasos OEM(?), accellerator shrinkwrapped?), and seems to add a lot of extra complexity (viz the upgrade scenario).
Personally, I dislike how it raises the barrier for 'real world' (outside the Amiga market) Linux/*NIX users who might try OS4 at a later revision.
Eyetech has their interests to protect, and Hyperion definitely needs to get paid. However, after all the talk of an "open platform," and whining about Macs being "closed," something seems to have gone awry. I had unfounded hopes that Amiga might take a pragmatic approach to licensing (e.g., OS4 single-seat $60, OS4 "Home" $150, OS4 SOHO $300-$500), but it sounds like the same old same old.
I wish Eyetech could have more trust in their position as the 'Intel' (or at least, the Dell or Abit) of CHRP boards.
It's dangerous to dream and assume. It's obvious that those were my unfounded fantasies...
The best thing we, as a community, can do is vote with our dollars- *buy* the boards, prove our loyalty- and petition for a better solution. (One that we'll have to figure out; I don't see USB dongles being too much different, but they'd allow for easier Linux->Amiga crossgrades, which I *am* concerned about..)
I'm still working on a shot at a well-reasoned counterargument, in part to determine what the effects of the 'protection' really are, and whether they're really damaging; the interaction between the ROM, OS, contract law, and the new permutations of copyright law (DMCA, etc) is so convoluted that it's hard to diagram it all. If anyone else wants to try to untangle it in total, you're more than welcome. :)
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 42 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Klauke on 16-Apr-2002 19:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (DaveW):
> My god someone who actually read through Alans press release?
Hey Dave, didn't you? ;-) Must be a reason why I do not post here to much.
If all you do all night long is reading to keep up with the news these days,
you've got no time for writing.. And time enough to forget the silly emotions
that sometimes get you in the very first moment.. (that's why you may see no
flames from me here, I know I'm boring..)
> Quick give me a pin and some formaldehyde!
Better get a pint of Grappa. Can give you an original Andrea Ponte. Burns away
the frustration.. (and does some good disinfection if you need) Or, Bailey's,
not bad either 8-)
Ciao, Alex
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 43 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Klauke on 16-Apr-2002 19:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Martin Tilsted):
> But this is no way to minimize the copy, because just one person have to break
> the encryption, and then anyone on the internet who want AOS4 can have it.
I have never tried to download a ROM. Don't know how easy that is...
> How long does it take before one can obtain AmigaOS4 on the internet? (My vote
> is for 14-30 days)
Better than 1 day, Martin, isn't it?
Seriously. Some people will try it. Some people may even produce some pirate
ROMs. Some may upload the code to the net and may crack AmigaOS4 to call that
code instead of a physical address in a ROM. Someone may even find all
occurences of the dongle ROM calls in OS4 and remove them. The real question is:
Who will download that code when he has just bought some legal Amiga hardware
because he was told that this is needed to run AmigaOS4. Exactly how many people
will take this much hassle if its all about maybe 100 $/¤? Some will, I know.
But will the majority if its that difficult? And AmigaInc. will know soon enough
because there will not be many people being able to crack AmigaOS4/ROM.
OTOH, if it would be just about copying a CD-ROM, then you could be rather
sure that _everyone_ would do it who only has a CD burner.
The point in case is: It will be very hard to make and get an illegal copy
of AmigaOS4/ROM and therefore minimize the pirate effect, not eliminate.
And its a thing of weighing cost (for the consumer and Hyperion) vs. protection
of AmigaOS, as Ben stated.
Ciao, Alex
(much burning tonite and the last days, burning for disinfection, burning ROMs,
burning CD-R(W), burning down the Amiga community, NOT ;-)
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 44 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 16-Apr-2002 20:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (.jon):
>Posted by .jon (145.236.119.176) on 16-Apr-2002 20:32:08
>To me it seems more like this: All want AmigaOS4.x. Much less want the >AmigaONE of Eyetech.
Then they should try & convince Bplan to get a licence
>There needs to be a way to make sure, AmigaOS won't run on any other hardware
>(i.e. PEGASOS) than AmigaONE (I do not count for those tiny soutions like >Shark, since it is not a replacement for a full ATX mobo.)
If BPlan wants to have AOS4 running on the Pegasos, then they'll need to pay the licence, it's really simple
>Now we get tied to AmigaONE, the product Eyetech had so much trouble and >expenses getting to work.
Yes, they've had expenses, and yes, they've delivered
>Just like Microsoft: The inferior product gets a monopoly enforced, so it is >superior on the market..
This is *NOTHING* like M$, if anything, it comes closer to the way Apple used to work with clones
>"This tight anti-piracy regime has obviously upset some individuals on the
<mailing lists who clearly did not expect to have to pay for OS4, or hoped to >buy unapproved/ unlicenced PPC Linux boards to save a few bucks."
>"
>
>For me (and most other reasonable Amiga lovers) it was always clear that I >will pay my AmigaOS4.x, But it was also clear as water to me that I won't buy >this pathetic AmigaONE. Instead I wanted AmigaOS4.x on PEGASOS.
Go complain to bPlan then, for Christ sake!
>What do they achieve ? With me nothing.
To bad for you then
>To the contrary ! The "anti-piracy campaign" led me to *not* pay for OS4.x at >all. Why ? Because, as it seems, AmigaOS >3.9 is for me out of question, it >has become unreachable. On which hardare will it run now ?! As said, I won't <spend my money on AmigaONE, I don't have a PPC board. Well, *eventually* I >will buy now a Shark...
that's your choice
>I might be wrong. Of course. But the facts are clear:
>
>AmigaOS4.x became unreachable for me.
Buy an A1, or a shark, or *any* other licenced/authorised platform
>P.S. A short time after release the warez-scene will happily swap >AmigaOS4.x...this is life...
Oh, you're one of those....
>...as it has done with Lightwave (Toaster), Brilliance (Dongle) and many more. >It will need some time and a skilled coder, but once it is done, it will >spread like free beer.
Skilled coder? sorry, but i call them skilled criminals
Amon_Re
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 45 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by logain on 16-Apr-2002 20:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
You missed the point Ben,
your OEM-announcement isnt fine. And how hard is it to understand this? Before the announcement people could choose their hw, choose their os and there was a huge interest in OS4 as it run any "suitable hardware" an costs 80€ (!! dont say it will cheaper when its OEM..you will sell less OS. now>:).
Now (just after another emotional "update"announcement) are people who decided for Pegasos forced to fell a not simple decision and also bPlan to react (and this time not in the good mood offering you a Pegasos for OS4-dev).
For Pegasos-interested users is the question: Will I buy a MOS/Pegasos bundle as announced and then I am not allowed! (even without more expensive upgrade kit with USB-Token or something like that) to use AmigaOS even if a Pegasos-version is in existence. A lot of users are very frustrated because of that new reality and i can assure you, that you already lost consumers with growing numbers. Most Pegasos interests simply arent interested in the licensed AmigaOne-MB.
Realize it. There arent some particular users frustrated, there are quite a lot more. You actually play a strange game with an unsure endling.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 46 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 16-Apr-2002 20:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
It's difficult to anticipate how the masses will respond once OS4 goes on sale, but it's encouraging to see the community being so supportive of the effort to limit piracy.
For every anti-piracy measure there is a way around it, but this time the stakes are a little higher.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 47 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 16-Apr-2002 20:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (logain):
>Posted by logain (80.142.139.163) on 16-Apr-2002 22:38:34
>In Reply to Comment 37:
>You missed the point Ben,
>your OEM-announcement isnt fine. And how hard is it to understand this? Before >the announcement people could choose their hw, choose their os and there was a >huge interest in OS4 as it run any "suitable hardware" an costs 80€ (!! dont >ay it will cheaper when its OEM..you will sell less OS. now>:).
Usually, in the PC industry, an OEM product will be cheaper then a boxed version, in this case however, it won't be cheaper then a boxed version, as there isn't a boxed version (yet?)
>Now (just after another emotional "update"announcement) are people who decided
> for Pegasos forced to fell a not simple decision and also bPlan to react (and >this time not in the good mood offering you a Pegasos for OS4-dev).
Offering? They *ORDERED* one (as in buying), and if bPlan wants AOS, they can get an agreement with Ainc, just like anyone else
>For Pegasos-interested users is the question: Will I buy a MOS/Pegasos bundle >as announced and then I am not allowed! (even without more expensive upgrade >kit with USB-Token or something like that) to use AmigaOS even if a Pegasos->version is in existence. A lot of users are very frustrated because of that >new reality and i can assure you, that you already lost consumers with growing >numbers. Most Pegasos interests simply arent interested in the licensed >AmigaOne-MB.
It's bPlan that's to blame here, not Hyperion
>Realize it. There arent some particular users frustrated, there are quite a >lot more. You actually play a strange game with an unsure endling.
It's not just Hyperion's call, Ainc also has part in it
Amon_Re
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 48 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 16-Apr-2002 21:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Amon_Re):
>..., and if bPlan wants AOS, they can get an agreement with Ainc, just like
>anyone else
Not 'just like anyone else', after all that has happened in the past.
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 49 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by KenH on 16-Apr-2002 21:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (.jon):
>P.S. A short time after release the warez-scene will happily swap AmigaOS4.x...this is life...
...as it has done with Lightwave (Toaster), Brilliance (Dongle) and many more. It will need some time and a skilled coder, but once it is done, it will spread like free beer.
Hopefully by then we'll be on to the next revision of the OS. That's what a dongle does....it buys you time while the pirate has to buy your product. ;)
Eyetech CEO clarifies AmigaOne/OS4 Announcement : Comment 50 of 129ANN.lu
Posted by KenH on 16-Apr-2002 21:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (KenH):
Oh and there's one sure fire anti-piracy measure which I hope and pray Hyperion don't impliment....a crap OS. ;)
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