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[News] Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others)ANN.lu
Posted on 21-Apr-2002 19:01 GMT by Christian Kemp40 comments
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createcoms wrote: "In a recent email discussion with Individual computers regarding OS4 drivers - this is what I was told....."
"1. Will Individual Computers release native OS4 drivers for some or all of"

VarIO, X-Surf and ISDN-Surfer will definately have native drivers, because they are written in C. The assembler sources of the multidisk.device are also available, and the programmer is still near, so he can do changes if necessary.

*** Also when asking permission to post this I was told ***

"I request permission to quote this Mail on news websites to show your OS4 commitment."

Please also state that this is not a "pro or con some-OS"-issue, but only a "if there is an incompatibility, I will sort it out"-issue. Some hardware products don't need drivers at all, like the IDE-fix expresss; it's a pure hardware speeder that also doubles the IDE speed on any OS you are running.

I don't want to be pulled into the "what's the perfect OS"-discussion.

ciao,

Jens Schönfeld

Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 1 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 21-Apr-2002 18:20 GMT
Jens is a cool guy...
I wonder if he will make floppy/2*joystick/clockport/geekport/amigakeyboard (+firewire) adapter for PCI slot... ;)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 2 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 21-Apr-2002 19:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (priest):
whats a geekport ?
what devices can be accessed ?
documentation over API of geekport.device avail ?
nah...joking....actually USB would be a good candidate for that name :)
first thing i think when i see those 128meg usb keyrings....geekstuff.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 3 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 05:39 GMT
"I don't want to be pulled into the "what's the perfect OS"-discussion."
I do. :-P ;-)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 4 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 22-Apr-2002 06:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Samface):
A "perfect" OS would have all the best features of QNX RtP (especially
the kernel), AmigaOS, and Mac (especially the Unicode suport).
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 5 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by gz on 22-Apr-2002 06:21 GMT
the perfect OS would be WINDOWS with a boingball logo ;-P
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 6 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Jon on 22-Apr-2002 06:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (gz):
I tried that with WinNT but it didn't hide its evil soul ;)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 7 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 07:03 GMT
A new operating system would be written completely from scratch, completely legacy free. It should be easy for your mother to maintain, flexible for the professional to use, powerful for companies to employ, and fun for the hobbyist to code for.
...no excuses.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 8 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 07:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Samface):
Typo. I meant a "perfect" operating system would be a new operating system written from scratch, completely legacy free.
:-)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 9 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Apr-2002 08:07 GMT
Operating systems have conflicting goals, for example throughput vs latency and those conflicts cannot be resolved without either compromise on functionality or an extraordinary hardware breakthrough. It's probably possible to do a lot better than any existing OS, but it's not possible with today's technology to create something that has all the "best" qualities simultaneously.
For example co-operative multi-tasking is obviously rubbish at most things, but it does guarantee maximum resource availability to the running execution context. The fully kernel pre-emptible model inevitably reduces throughput compared with a simple per-emptive system but many people consider the trade for latency worthwhile.
Further down the line, SMP support requires extensive modifications to the core OS, and can introduce subtle complexities that are hard to debug. For UP users this additional overhead is unnecessary, but the SMP feature is certainly an important part of a high performance workstation or server OS these days.
Most interesting features have a price. There will always be some users who don't think that price worth paying, and so for them a "better" OS that has paid that price is "worse" because of the price, whether it is financial or technical. AOS 4.0 will include many things early A1200 users would cheerfully have sold their souls for, but OTOH there will not be draggable multi-resolution screens.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 10 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 08:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
"Fix your eyes on perfection and you make almost everything speed towards it."
-- William Ellery Channing
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 11 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Allen on 22-Apr-2002 08:32 GMT
"If you don't start making sense...I gonna put you in a home..."
--- Homer Simpson
:) Just a joke SamFace!
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 12 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 22-Apr-2002 08:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Samface):
Sounds like youre talking about AROS :)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 13 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 22-Apr-2002 08:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (4pLaY):
Not quite. AROS is anything but legacy free.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 14 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 22-Apr-2002 09:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Lennart Fridén):
Aros is what people make of it! its free and open source! anyone can do what the heck they wish with it and if any of the "Amigaish" OSes has any chance of survival its Aros.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 15 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by John Chandler on 22-Apr-2002 09:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (catohagen):
The Geekport was a proprietary expansion interface found on the BeBox. I'm not sure what hardware supported it though, and it pretty much disappeared with the BeBox.
John
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 16 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 09:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (4pLaY):
You still have the legacy problem. You see, it'll have to be API compatible (which it is) with the original AmigaOS in order to run Amiga software (recompiled or not) at all. Would AROS really be AROS if it didn't have this? My standpoint is that legacy issues like this severely limits the potentials of the OS and slows down development progress. Sometimes it's just better to start all over again and forget all about backwards compatibility issues...
...no excuses.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 17 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Grandpa Simpson on 22-Apr-2002 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Allen):
But you already put me in a home!
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 18 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Budda on 22-Apr-2002 09:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (priest):
A PCI card with most of this is currently in final development stage by a guy in Australia. It is currently intended for Amithlon users but i do not see why it could not be used on the AmigaG3SE with some driver help :)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 19 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by 4pLaY on 22-Apr-2002 09:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Samface):
Maybe but this way opens up for software a OS with not software wont make it! just look at BEos
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 20 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 22-Apr-2002 09:38 GMT
Previous Word of the Month: Boicott
Word of the Month: Legal
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 21 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Apr-2002 09:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Samface):
And would it be highly pirated by the likes of you, Samface? You know, like you pirated AmIRC (by your own admission) for no good reason?
Just checking.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 22 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 09:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Anonymous):
Who said such an OS had to be commercial or even closed source? A concept beyond your comprehension capabilities, I guess.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 23 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 10:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (4pLaY):
There's no software for AROS either, what's the difference? You see, BeOS was commersial, AROS is not. See the benefit of NOT beeing a business which requires profit in order to survive?
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 24 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 10:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Anonymous):
You know, the list of posts you've made stating the exact same thing is getting pretty long now. When are you going to get a life on your own?
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 25 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by blarg on 22-Apr-2002 10:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Samface):
Note, Samface, that what you just said is nonsense - a business that does not require profit to survive is not a business; it is either an organisation related to other businesses that do turn a profit (relying on them for funding for research, or development), or a charity. Either one involves voluntary work, and is largely dependent on the dedication/competence of the volunteers involved - they can't just buy expertise...
Trying to run software development as a charitable concern has yet to prove itself as anything more than a pipe-dream (the only types of shareware that have managed to allow the authors to live off their product has been crippleware, sad but true) - it just doesn't class in the same range as human rights/war/famine for donations, and someone without profit to spend can't exactly afford to start advertising on a wider scale. Unless you mean to simply have everyone work for nothing, which would have to be in their spare time if they want to eat - fair enough, but you also need to have some way of encouraging the volunteers to stay focused on something, as people don't often agree - someone has to be at the end of the line to strip out all the unnecessary changes and additions that have been added "because we can".
Voluntary groups, working in their spare time, can work - businesses that do not work for profit? No, even businesses that use completely GPLed software attempt to gain profit somewhere (even if it is documentation, or service), as otherwise it is not a business, and is severely limited.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 26 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Rodney on 22-Apr-2002 11:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (gz):
mum was right, drugs to some weird shit to ya
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 27 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 22-Apr-2002 12:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (4pLaY):
"Aros is what people make of it!"
Agreed.
"anyone can do what the heck they wish with it"
Not quite if you read the license (i.e. it's not PD). Open source != Public Domain so please refrain from sweeping generalizations.
"and if any of the "Amigaish" OSes has any chance of survival its Aros."
Agreed, but you seem to miss my point entirely. I'm saying that AROS is not legacy free (e.g. it is based on the AmigaOS 3.1 API and look&feel, it is suppossed to be source compatible with OS3.1 aplications), I'm not saying it's no good.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 28 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 12:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (blarg):
Please, let's not turn a discussion about a fictional "perfect" OS into a flame war. Let's keep this clean and perhaps we'll have a clean and interesting discussion on ANN for once. :-)
As for my reply:
1. Sorry. Of course I didn't mean a non-profitable *business*. I'm sur you know what I meant anyway.
2. The Linux community is larger than the Mac and has in fact proved that voluntary work can be just as effective as proffesional. Sure, the user-friendliness can be questioned but, the functionality actually beats the commercial alternatives in some cases.
3. I agree on the fact that the open source community consists of a software anarchy which cripples much of the distributions out there. However, imagine a open source but not freely distributable software community where all work beeing made is joined into one great effort. Think making it illegal to not contribute the work you put into modifying/enhancing your OS to this fictional OS project.
4. Imagine this fictional project to be individual independant, as in not dependant by specific individuals. The project would then be able to continue progress even if the project coordinator himself got run over by a bus or whatever.
5. Imagine this project to have "user friendliness", "developer friendliness", "effectivity", "flexibility" as their mantra.
That's more like what I had in mind. :-)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 29 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 22-Apr-2002 12:15 GMT
FYI, the geekport:
pinouts: http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/cartridge/geekport.html
pinouts (spare link): http://wired.hard.ru/data/co_GeekPort.shtml
http://www.bebox.nu/geekport/
It can be used for anything what propelheads/geeks want to use it for. ;)
If not geekport, then some custom port for DIY freaks would be equally nice. (sure there is already serial and parallel ports, but...)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 30 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 22-Apr-2002 12:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Samface):
If "legacy free" means it wouldn't run any existing software, then I
don't see that as an advantage. On the contrary, the "perfect" OS
would run _all_ existing software.
Why, in an ideal world, would you want to not be able to run any
program?
I still miss Crystal Paint, which stopped working when the Mac went
from System 6 to System 7.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 31 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 13:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Don Cox):
Well, because being backwards compatible cripples your OS. Look at Windows 2000, I think it launches atleast 4 kernels ontop of each other in order to be backwards compatible with previous Windows versions and still there are older programs that won't run on newer versions of Windows. The OS becomes slow, unstable and bloated in general. This is the very reason for why these fast and furious gigaherts machines on the PC market isn't noticably faster than older computers. So, due to legacy issues, the computer market has basicly stopped progressing, on the contrary, our systems are more resource hungry, slower and more unstable than ever before. This problem could only be cured in one way, start all over again from scratch. That would be the only true way of becoming a next generation OS instead of an improved version of the old one.
...no excuses.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 32 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Apr-2002 15:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Samface):
Just in case anyone thinks that starting again is a smart plan, and that surely *any* fool is likely to create something better than Windows or Unix (the only surviving operating systems of any significance, both based on designs that are older than the original Amiga) please go and look at the history of OS/2 and Freedows.
Freedows is an example of the more common "revolutionary" OS, a volunteer project run and staffed mostly by teenagers with imagination and perhaps a little talent, but not the leadership skills and practical experience to actually implement an OS. In some cases (BoxOS) the children who create these projects expect most of the work to be done by experienced professionals, while they take the role of "glorious leader".
OS/2 is the less common type, a commercial project. Something envisioned as a profit-making enterprise full of amazing technical achievements, but few compelling attractions for users or 3rd party developers. These projects can cost millions of dollars, take decades and destroy entire companies (BeOS, AmigaOS) but they almost always fail in the marketplace and because they are commercial projects that means sooner or later they will wither and die.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 33 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by kevin orme on 22-Apr-2002 15:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Grandpa Simpson):
right, but if you don't behave we'll put you in that crooked home we saw on 60 minutes!
homer
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 34 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 22-Apr-2002 16:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Samface):
But we are talking about the perfect OS. It can run Apple ][ or Amiga
1000 programs without slowing down at all.
How?
It has a library of emulators which run transparently. When you select
an Amiga program, UAE (or some much improved equivalent) starts up on
its own screen and runs the program. Clipboards and other links to the
rest of the computer work transparently. For a Windows program, a
Windows emulator starts up.
Easy? No. But for the perfect OS, you need it.
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 35 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 22-Apr-2002 18:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Don Cox):
Compatibility isn't a feature, it's a drawback. Why would we want to implement that into a "pefect" OS?
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 36 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 22-Apr-2002 22:53 GMT
I still want an ATAPI controller to plug into the floppy drive port.
I dont care if it's dog slow as long as it works :)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 37 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 22-Apr-2002 23:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
Better yet... an USB controller to hook onto any amiga floppy port :)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 38 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 23-Apr-2002 04:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Don Cox):
A "perfect" OS would be *enabling* such libraries, by providing the power, flexibility, and availability of OS services to pull off that stunt.
Yet still, I don't think it would be such a good idea to provide those libraries as part of the "core" OS. You'll perpetually try to improve compatibility instead of improving your core OS (look at OS/2), people would probably never even look at the core OS but just use the emulation layer (again OS/2), and your user interface would be 100% FUBAR because you have Windows, Linux, AmigaOS, Mac and whatever interfaces alongside. Doh.
Samface, Lennart, let's get back to business, will ya? Those who search will find... ;-)
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 39 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Phill on 23-Apr-2002 09:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Samface):
> Look at Windows 2000, I think it launches atleast 4 kernels ontop of each
> other in order to be backwards compatible with previous Windows versions
Just because you think that doesn't make it true.
It has one kernel & compatibility layers for 16bit windows & dos apps.
Windows 95 is terrible though as it's basically dos + win3.11. Some of the O/S is from DOS, some 16bit Windows & some 32bit Windows. There are then thunking layers to allow you to call the 16bit kernel from 32bit code & vice versa. They pulled alot of the 16bit stuff out of later revisions of Windows 95 ( aka Windows 98 & ME ), although I doubt it's all gone bearing in mind how they run like crap.
Windows 2000 was the first decent desktop OS that Microsoft produced ( NT 3.51/4 were OK for servers but are a bit of a pain for desktops due to lack of up to date directx etc ). Windows XP is also kinda cool. Hopefully AOS 4 will be able to compete on features ( even if it's just with XP Home ), or it's going to look kinda sad.
Phill
Individual Computers will support OS4 (among others) : Comment 40 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Phill on 23-Apr-2002 09:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Anonymous):
> Just in case anyone thinks that starting again is a smart plan, and that
> surely *any* fool is likely to create something better than Windows or Unix
> (the only surviving operating systems of any significance, both based on
> designs that are older than the original Amiga) please go and look at the
> history of OS/2 and Freedows.
OS/2 is the father of Windows NT.
Windows NT can even run OS/2 command line programs natively.
Microsoft were doing OS/2 3.0 before they decided to break away and stick Program Manager on top.
Windows NT is pretty similar to AmigaOS in many ways & superior in others.
It's not an old design in comparison ( neither of them are revolutionary nowadays ).
Phill
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