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[News] AFUA visited Thendic-FranceANN.lu
Posted on 24-Apr-2002 15:30 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä629 comments
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The French Amiga user group AFUA visited the Thendic-France headquarters and met with Bill Buck and the Coyote Flux guys. Read their report here.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 151 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 25-Apr-2002 13:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (Samface):
>If I remeber it correctly, wasn't Fleecy fired for beeing too innovative or >.something like that?
HAHAHAHAHA ;/?)
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 152 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Apr-2002 13:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 150 (Samface):
My point is you are wrong in saying AInc owns the patents.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 153 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 13:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (Anonymous):
Don't take it out of it's context if you want to nitpick on details. It's "Amiga next-generation PowerPC OS project", they have no right for doing anything "Amiga next-generation", period.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 154 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 13:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (Anonymous):
Sigh... whatever.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 155 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 25-Apr-2002 13:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (Samface):
Why do you still base your arguments on an out of date note which ISN'T even claiming that Morphos is supposed to be THE NEW Amiga OS ? You just see some words in the same sentence and put them together inside your head so that it can mean something it doesn't.
1) The text DOESN'T say that.
2) Even if it did, it's more than 2 years old.. possibly 3..
I believe it says that Morphos is able to run Amiga OS. Which would mean that Morphos isn't Amiga OS. In fact, the previously released versions of Morphos is more or less an own OS with a 68k emulator. It doesn't come with workbench.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 156 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 13:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 151 (cheesegrate):
I have an article in one of my Amiga Active issues at home, I'll check it out as soon as I get off from work and we'll see. I do believe it said something about his views were too pioneering and didn't comply with the views of Gateway or something... Anyway, I'm not sure but we'll see. :-)
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 157 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 25-Apr-2002 13:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 141 (Anonymous):
At least he is brave enough to post on ANN with a name, unlike you.
Sorry, as far as I am concerned, all anonymous posts here appear to be trolls, so their content is worthless.
If you have something worth saying, put a name to it.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 158 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 13:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 155 (Anders Kjeldsen):
Regarding emulation:
The law specificly states that a developer is allowed to use someone else ROM/BIOS for reverse engineering but, the officially released version must not depend on it. This means that not even UAE is legal.
BTW, the fact that both the announcement and the officially released Amiga ROM dependant MorphOS version has been available at their website for several years doesn't make it any better.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 159 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 25-Apr-2002 13:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 158 (Samface):
>BTW, the fact that both the announcement and the officially released Amiga
>ROM dependant MorphOS version has been available at their website for
>several years doesn't make it any better.
Might sound stupid: Can you blame Morphos if the USER wants to run AmigaOS under Morphos ? I mean, it's emulating a 68k CPU. Shouldn't the 68k programs be able to use the ROM, Hardware etc. as they want?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 160 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by AlphaFoX on 25-Apr-2002 13:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (Samface):
>It's "Amiga next-generation PowerPC OS project", they have no right for doing
>anything "Amiga next- generation", period.
Ah, I think that's the point over wich we both disagree. As I understand it, the "next generation" refers to the "PowerPC OS project" and not to "Amiga".
To your other comment (145), it not advertised as AmigaOS (indeed an Amiga brand) but as a PowerPC OS. And why do "next generation" or "PowerPC" infringe Amiga IP?
IMHO, of course..
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 161 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 13:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 159 (Anders Kjeldsen):
What I blame them for is that they didn't acquire the rights like they should. Both Cloanto and H&P did this before releasing their products, why shouldn't the MorphOS team do it like everybody else?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 162 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Apr-2002 14:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Graham):
>At least he is brave enough to post on ANN with a name, unlike you.
Yes, very brave...maybe I should call myself Samfeet, would I be brave
in your eyes, too...Mr "Graham"?
>If you have something worth saying, put a name to it.
I don't see the logic in that. Does the man at Speakers Corner, London
have to tell you his name before you will listen to him?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 163 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 25-Apr-2002 14:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 161 (Samface):
For what ?
The current Beta runs only on Amigas which allready
have a licence, while the final version (on the Pegasos)
won't need any files from AmigaOS.
BtW: They once asked for a licence to the WB3.1 disk
and the answer was $100000. They only plan to sell
a few thousand MOS-based Pegasos so the price is way
ou of line. And before you start with that again:
McBill and Fleecy never paid $5000000 for "Amiga" !
Maybe thats whats in the book but not even those
are stupid enough to pay so much for a OS they didn't
want (in the beginning), a shrinking user-base and
a brand-name with ,well lets say dubious reputation.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 164 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 160 (AlphaFoX):
Well, why don't they say an Amiga compatible OS then? Stating that it's next-generation is exactly the same thing as claiming that it's the successor of a product line, a product line for which they don't have the rights for.
You can twist and turn things around all you want, there's simply no way around it. Also, it's only one point for why it's illegal, you know. Just give it up already.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 165 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 25-Apr-2002 14:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 161 (Samface):
There is a big difference:
Cloanto and H&P both used AmigaOS code. MorphOS doesn't unless you run
it on an Amiga. Using the Amiga rom on an Amiga is perfectly ok as I'm
sure you understand. After all, that's what all software do.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 166 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Apr-2002 14:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 161 (Samface):
>Both Cloanto and H&P did this before releasing their products
Did what? AInc is in disagreement with H&P concerning the AmigaOSXL product...
But MOS is neither using the name, nor some AmigaOS as essential part of the
package, so the situation is different.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 167 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Kronos):
The officially released version of a reverse engineered emulator must not depend on the BIOS/ROM of the origianl version.
I'm sorry, but that's the law.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 168 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Apr-2002 14:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 164 (Samface):
>Stating that it's next-generation is exactly the same thing as claiming that it's
>the successor of a product line,
PowerUP as 1st generation -> MorphOS as 2nd generation
>a product line for which they don't have the rights for.
They have every rights for the PPC accelerators. :-)
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 169 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 166 (Anonymous):
That situation is still not resolved yet so don't speculate on it. However, I rather refered to the fact that H&P has the rights for distributing and using the AmigaOS3.9, just like Cloanto has along with their UAE package.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 170 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 168 (Anonymous):
But then, it doesn't say "Phase5 next-generation", now does it?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 171 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 25-Apr-2002 14:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (Samface):
So you are a laywer ?
There is a licenced ROM in every A4000/A1200 that can
run MorphOS, therefore it is legal to use this in any
way you like (on that maschine). Running UAE in WarpOS
or PPC-Linux ,using a image of that rom and running
on the same maschine is also legal.
Think of MOS_for_Phase5 as a gigantic patch.
It's not illegal to replace exec (or other libs)
It's not illegal to run 68k-code in a emu on the PPC
It's not illegal to run the maschines WB on top of it,
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 172 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 25-Apr-2002 14:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (Samface):
Kom igen nu televerket! Är det inte dags att sluta apa efter vad
andra säger och tänka till själv istället? Det är uppenbart att du
inte har en aning om vad du snackar om och ändå låter du så in i vassen
självsäker. Det gör ett löjeväckande intryck.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 173 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 25-Apr-2002 14:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 162 (Anonymous):
>>At least he is brave enough to post on ANN with a name, unlike you.
>Yes, very brave...maybe I should call myself Samfeet, would I be brave
>in your eyes, too...Mr "Graham"?
Hehe.. funny :)
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 174 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Apr-2002 14:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (Samface):
You don't have to be sorry, because MOS doesn't depend on the ROM, they have own code already.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 175 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Apr-2002 14:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 168 (Anonymous):
How can you do a next-generation OS out of hardware? I really wonder...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 176 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 175 (Anonymous):
BTW, that was me.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 177 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 174 (Anonymous):
That is legal. However, I'm talking about what is officially released, which is the only thing that counts.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 178 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 25-Apr-2002 14:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 175 (Anonymous):
PowerUPppc.library and so on..
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 179 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Apr-2002 14:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Samface):
I think there is no MOS officially released, that's the thing we are waiting for, right?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 180 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 171 (Kronos):
*BEEEEEP* WRONG!
The user is not allowed to use his ROM in anyway he wants. The user must not make any copy of the licensed ROM/BIOS, not even for personal use. This applies regardless if it's stated in the end user license agreement (EULA) or not.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 181 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 179 (Anonymous):
The downloadable beta is an official release, regardless of timelimit or if it's a finished product or not.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 182 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (Nicholai Benalal):
Televerket finns inte längre. Tänkt själv har jag gjort hela mitt liv. Uppenbarligen vet du inte vad du pratar om, bevisa att jag har fel istället.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 183 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 14:51 GMT
Ok people, argue with the facts all you want, from http://www.void.jump.org/EmuFAQ2000/EmuFAQ_M2P2.htm:
--- 8< ---
"It is illegal for the average user to produce, distribute, or use an unauthorized dump of the BIOS of a computer system.
Users cannot fool around with the original system BIOS or its internal microcode in any way without the authorization of the original system vendor. Emulator developers have a limited right to do as they please not only with the system BIOS, but any other system code stored within system firmware, so long as that code is not protected by patent and their final product is noninfringing. Developers may use a dump of an original system BIOS in developing an emulator, but the final or public release version of that emulator cannot require its use in order to function."
--- >8 ---
Highlight this: "the final or public release version of that emulator cannot require its use in order to function".
Guess what? The current public release of MorphOS require the AmigaOS and it's ROM in order to work.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 184 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 25-Apr-2002 14:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 180 (Samface):
But it is legal to use a copy on the same maschine.
Otherwise all the Kick2RAM-options would be illegal.
Also note: Not even Ben "Be is dead" Hermans thinks
MorphOS is illegal as long as it runs on a Phase5-
card inside a "real" Amiga.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 185 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 25-Apr-2002 14:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 183 (Samface):
What is the definition of "dump" here? A copy in memory? A copy to disk? A copy moved to another computer? As far as YOU know, Morphos doesn't use the ROM in any other way than any other amiga program, does it ?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 186 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 25-Apr-2002 14:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 182 (Samface):
It makes little sense to discuss with a person who is so sure
of the perfection of his own arguments that he refuses to listen
to the most simple facts.
1) The downloadable version of MorphOS uses the Amiga roms like
any other piece of software would do. How can that be illegal? If it was,
you would be stuck with a plain wb installation.
2) The upcoming version for pegasos depends on neither the rom
nor any diskbased software components from commodore.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 187 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 15:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 185 (Anders Kjeldsen):
From the very same page:
"THE PRACTICE OF ROM DUMPING
ROM dumping first originated with program developers who wanted to examine the computer microcode stored within integrated circuits. You see, actual ROMs come in two flavors - programmable read-only memory (PROM) and erasable-programmable read-only memory (EPROM). PROMs are the most common - you "burn" in the code once and then forget about it. EPROMs, on the other hand, can be erased and "re-burned" with new code (for example, most BIOS chips are EPROMs). Regardless of which form you use, there is no way to get at the machine data code stored within the ROM once it is burned into those little black rectangles of silica and metal unless you come up with a way to download it from the chip itself. Downloading in this case refers to some kind of special interface linked to the ROM itself whereby its internal code can then be "dumped." The result is object code in software instead of hardware, which is easier by far for a developer to work with."
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 188 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 25-Apr-2002 15:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (Samface):
And you're a lawyer now?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 189 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 25-Apr-2002 15:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Samface):
Are you saying that CGX and P96 are both illegal because they patch
graphics.library/parts of the AmigaOS and implement new functions?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 190 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 15:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Nicholai Benalal):
>1) The downloadable version of MorphOS uses the Amiga roms like
>any other piece of software would do. How can that be illegal? If it was,
>you would be stuck with a plain wb installation.
I've tried out MorphOS myself and the fact that it uses and depends on the Amiga ROM is pretty hard to deny, isn't it? Just read the quote I wrote above regarding the use of a system's ROM/BIOS.
>2) The upcoming version for pegasos depends on neither the rom
>nor any diskbased software components from commodore.
I don't care about something non-existent and neither does the law. I'm talking about the existing official release of MorphOS which per definition is illegal and Amiga Inc is free to sue if they like.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 191 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 25-Apr-2002 15:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 190 (Samface):
>I've tried out MorphOS myself and the fact that it uses and depends on the
>Amiga ROM is pretty hard to deny, isn't it? Just read the quote I wrote above
>regarding the use of a system's ROM/BIOS.
I installed many Amiga software but none said that I can remove the ROM now because the software doesn't depend on it...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 192 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 15:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 188 (David Scheibler):
The law applies to everyone and it's you're duty as a citizen to know what is legal and what is not.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 193 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 25-Apr-2002 15:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (Samface):
How to make a rom-dump:
BYTE *ROM_byte(BYTE*) ROM_start;
BYTE ROM_DUMP[ROM_Site];
for(i= ROM_start;i {
ROM_DUMP[i]ROM[i];
}
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 194 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 25-Apr-2002 15:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 190 (Samface):
It is also hard to deny that all amiga software except maybe some
hardware banging games rely on the rom.
Is it the fact that it patches the rom that you have problems with?
Well, that is a practice that was proposed by commodore. AmigaOS wouldn't
have survived the last 10 years if people were not free to do that.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 195 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 25-Apr-2002 15:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 192 (Samface):
So we wouldn't need lawyers then right? Why do we need judges? Everybody knows what's legal and illegal, so why do we need courts and judges?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 196 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 15:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 191 (David Scheibler):
But then, that's running ontop of the ROM which is an entirely different story. I'm talking about the MorphOS way of emulating the Amiga and it's ROM ontop of the Quark kernel.
Sigh... You people are like religious fanatics, so convinced about your belief that not even the cold facts in your face will make you budge one inch. See you another day, I've got a life to attend...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 197 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 25-Apr-2002 15:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 196 (Samface):
>You people are like religious fanatics, so convinced about
>your belief that not even the cold facts in your face will
>make you budge one inch. See you another day, I've got a
>life to attend...
Same to you...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 198 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 25-Apr-2002 15:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 196 (Samface):
>But then, that's running ontop of the ROM which is an entirely different
>story. I'm talking about the MorphOS way of emulating the Amiga and it's ROM
>ontop of the Quark kernel.
Wait. First you said that MorphOS is illegal because it uses the Amiga ROM.
Then you said it would be legal if they have a replacement for it.
Now you are saying that it is illegal because MorphOS doesn't *use* the ROM but *emulates* it instead which belongs to your second statement.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 199 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 15:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 195 (David Scheibler):
Hey, don't ask me. I only told you about the law which specificly states that you as a citizen is obliged to kow the law and cannot in any case use your own lack of knowledge as an excuse. Imagine the charged person saying:
- Hey, I didn't know it was illegal to kill people, I'm not a lawyer.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 200 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 25-Apr-2002 15:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 198 (David Scheibler):
There's a difference between something reverse engineered and an emulator using the original files of the system's BIOS/ROM. That's why Bleem! is legal but UAE is not. Guess what category the currently available version of MorphOS ends up in...
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