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[News] AFUA visited Thendic-FranceANN.lu
Posted on 24-Apr-2002 15:30 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä629 comments
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The French Amiga user group AFUA visited the Thendic-France headquarters and met with Bill Buck and the Coyote Flux guys. Read their report here.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 351 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 12:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 349 (Samface):
I have a court decision. You have a lawyer who is claiming facts but even
allowed to practise in Germany.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 352 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 12:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 349 (Samface):
You posted no facts my friend.
And yes, after the stuff you posted yesterday and the day before,
you sound REALLY stupid. Now go "repair" your own creditability...
Bye bye.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 353 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 12:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 351 (David Scheibler):
Insert a "not" before "allowed"
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 354 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 27-Apr-2002 12:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 348 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
UAE IS illegal in the EU, there is no doubt about that.
EU copyright law only allows you to make copies for very specific reasons, none of which apply.
(One such reason is to make a back-up but since you can't backup hardware, this doesn't apply)
Hence you are not allowed to copy a ROM even if you own it and dump it on a disk
AmigaForever is different ofcourse because Cloanto licensed the Kickstart for distribution with their product.
The main thrust of the argument against MorphOS is not the decompilation issue but the unfair and parasitic competition argument.
Marketing and advertising a compatible product by reference to the original constitutes unfair and parasitic competition.
No matter how MorphOS was developed (by decompilation or otherwise) as long as that's what they are doing, it will remain illegal.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 355 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 12:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 354 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Marketing and advertising a compatible product by reference to the original
>constitutes unfair and parasitic competition
Oh in what way is MorphOS advertised at the moment?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 356 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 12:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 354 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben is a lawyer and can post as many law stuff as he wants as he has the
knowledge. Mr Samface is not a a lawyer and has no law knowledge.
Neither do I, and that's the reason I don't post law stuff and state that
they are 100% valid.
So... samface... Why don't you do the same?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 357 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 27-Apr-2002 12:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 355 (David Scheibler):
Hi David
Isn't that funny ?
Fist he maneuvers hinself into a corner with
this interoperability-stuff and then he comes
around and claims that the problem lies some-
where else.
Unendliche Geschichte ?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 358 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 12:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 348 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
From http://www.void.jump.org/EmuFAQ2000/EmuFAQ_M2P2.htm:
--- 8< ---
"It is illegal for the average user to produce, distribute, or use an unauthorized dump of the BIOS of a computer system.
Users cannot fool around with the original system BIOS or its internal microcode in any way without the authorization of the original system vendor. Emulator developers have a limited right to do as they please not only with the system BIOS, but any other system code stored within system firmware, so long as that code is not protected by patent and their final product is noninfringing. Developers may use a dump of an original system BIOS in developing an emulator, but the final or public release version of that emulator cannot require its use in order to function."
--- >8 ---
Once more, I point out the facts. If you have an issue with these facts, look it up yourself and prove me wrong.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 359 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 12:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 358 (Samface):
>Users cannot fool around with the original system BIOS or its internal
>microcode in any way without the authorization of the original system vendor.
Already the first sentence is wrong.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 360 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 12:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 358 (Samface):
You pointed out an emulation site with an emulation faq.
Since when you can find valid law statements on emulation sites?
For example if I visit a rom site it will state that it's legal
in it's faqs. Got the point?
You're not a lawyer my friend Sam.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 361 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 12:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 357 (Kronos):
No, none of my points has been proven invalid. You need to realize that this is not just about one problem, it's several issues where I find the legality of MorphOS to be *questionable*.
Both Ben and I has tried to explain the difference between P96 CGX emulation and MorphOS and still you don't get it. Sure, I don't blame you but please stop claiming that we are wrong just because you lack the ability to understand the circumstances.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 362 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 12:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 361 (Samface):
>You need to realize that this is not just about one problem, it's several
>issues where I find the legality of MorphOS to be *questionable*.
And I showed you several issues where I find the legality of AmigaOS to be
*questionbable*.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 363 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 12:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 360 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Well, that emulation FAQ has actual references to court cases and paragraphs in the law, you're free to look it up and verify it's viability.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 364 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 12:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 362 (David Scheibler):
I have facts, you claim you know stuff. See the difference?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 365 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 12:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 364 (Samface):
Court decisions are not facts?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 366 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 13:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 341 (Samface):
Hello,
You said:
"
Please, answer me this:
1. MorphOS (the officially released version available for download) does replace the AmigaROM with it's own Quark kerenel, I've never denied that like some other people claim. But, would you deny the fact that the AmigaROM is used in anyway for launching AmigaOS3.x ontop of that kernel and emulator?
2. Could you deny the fact that the MorphOS team/bPlan/Thendic-France use the recognition of the Amiga trademark for marketing their products? I mean, announced as an Amiga next-generation PowerPC OS, advertising the Pegasos when you search for AmigaOne at google, uses the Workbench trademark, etc...
3. Would you deny the fact that MorphOS has used reverse engineering of the AmigaOS? You see, Ralph Scmidt himself told me that MorphOS is a reverse engineered product which according to him is perfectly legal. (Ben Hermans made it perfectly clear that this is not the case.)
Don't give me your opininon or something you simply claim to know, give me the cold facts."
Sorry but all that I can say about what you claim to be facts is that it isn't fact at all!!! It's your opinion, and that show us that you know quite nothing on the situation.
1. MorphOS does not replace the ROM, it just load it's kernel and run it. Like Linux/APUS do. Like Linux on PCs do. Like any OS do ;) If you think that this is illegal first you are completely wrong second then the Linux/APUS team should be sued to. The NetBSD Amiga Team should be sued to, The OpenBSD Amiga Team should be sued to... But they haven't been sued and will never be because it's legal to run an other OS than the one which was delivered on a specific hardware. It's done on PC, Macs, Amiga, Atari...all computers. It'd be illegal to forbid this.
2. But the Pegasos + MorphOS IS an Amiga compatible computer. It's a fact ;-)
3. Has Hermans said, reverse engineering is different from decompilation. Reverse engineering is legal. Decompilation isn't legal in all situations. So yes MorphOS can be a reverse engineered product and be perfectly legal. What Mr Hermans claim that make MorphOS illegal is that it have used decompialtion. But it doesn't in reality. But of course Hermans want to see proofs of that.
> I want to be able to examine the proof myself like in a courtroom where no
> proof can be presented to the court without letting the other side of the case
> examining it first.
You don't have the required knowledges to act as a judge. So don't try to.
The only thing your attitude show me is that you are, like most of the humans in this earth, a guy that believe that he is right and that don't want to admit his mistakes. This kind of guys are the guys who have made the bad things of this world (pollution, Genetically Modified Organisms...etc).
Just try to get more infos and more important to read and understand them OBJECTIVELY!! That's to say without pre-judgments. And also don't try to play roles that you can't like pretending that you are enough good to be a lawyer or a court judge or a SW or HW technician. You have proved that you CAN'T.
So do like most people here should do don't talk when you don't have the knowledges.
Even myself I don't answer when I know that I can't answer because I don't have the knowledges. Note that here I didn't gave you a complete answer on your points but just things that are evident or been said by people who know (Hermans for the third point). I can't give you a real complete answer because I don't know enogh the case. What I know is that MorphOS don't use any decompialtion and that Hermans, a lawyer, said that reverse engineering is different from decompilation and that it's perfectly legal. Hermans is a lawyer and he is arguments against MorphOS are not about reverse engineering but about decompilation.
Regards
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 367 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 27-Apr-2002 13:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 361 (Samface):
Ben is gone need another "stupid german judge"(tm) to
sell him that difference in a court-room.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 368 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 13:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 366 (Frodon):
>1. MorphOS does not replace the ROM, it just load it's kernel and run it.
That is right as long as you talk about the Quark kernel, which wasn't the subject. The question was; does the MorphOS use the AmigaROM in any way when launching the AmigaOS ontop of their 68k emulator?
Once more you showed your lack of understanding what you read.
>2. But the Pegasos + MorphOS IS an Amiga compatible computer. It's a fact ;-)
The announcement or none of the advertising refers to it as an Amiga compatible computer, rather a next generation Amiga computer. Big difference.
>3. Has Hermans said, reverse engineering is different from decompilation. >Reverse engineering is legal. Decompilation isn't legal in all situations. So >yes MorphOS can be a reverse engineered product and be perfectly legal. What >Mr Hermans claim that make MorphOS illegal is that it have used decompialtion. >But it doesn't in reality. But of course Hermans want to see proofs of that.
And no proof has been shown. What does that tell you?
>You don't have the required knowledges to act as a judge.
I don't act as a judge just because I know how to find a quote from the laws regarding software emulation. Regarding this specific issue, the laws seem to be clear. If you don't know of a way to prove me wrong, then don't claim that I am.
Once more, jumping on someone's personality is a sign of desperation. You don't see me insulting you or your personality, now do you?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 369 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 13:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 354 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hello,
Ben Hermans said:
> UAE IS illegal in the EU, there is no doubt about that.
> EU copyright law only allows you to make copies for very specific reasons,
> none of which apply.
> (One such reason is to make a back-up but since you can't backup hardware,
> this doesn't apply)
> Hence you are not allowed to copy a ROM even if you own it and dump it on a disk
Sorry but I don't understand the problem here? UAE isn't delivered with any Kickstart ROM or AmigaOS. It is clearly specified in the doc when you download it that you have to have an Amiga and have legally owned AmigaOS to use UAE. UAE itself is not illegal in hat point. What is illegal is if someone use it with a pirated Kickstart ROM or/and AmigaOS.
> AmigaForever is different of course because Cloanto licensed the Kickstart for > distribution with their product.
Of course so they can distribute the Kickstart ROM and OS in addition contrary to UAE which desn't include them to stay legal.
> The main thrust of the argument against MorphOS is not the decompilation issue
> but the unfair and parasitic competition argument.
Interesting to hear that ;-) Even Lindows can't be sued for that reason and in my opinion to respect the liberty of competition law all OSes should come with complete APIs documentation to allow others to make compatible OSes and to compete in term of quality and features and not of compatibility. For me don't allowing that is a kind of anti-competive action. I know that actually all the OSes are not doing this (except open sourced ones) and because of that it's commonly admitted to be "normal". It's just an opinion but I think if the Informatic world have respected that he would be a lot better today.
> Marketing and advertising a compatible product by reference to the original
> constitutes unfair and parasitic competition.
Because of my opinion I told you below, this shouldn't be the case in a intelligent and free competitive informatic world. That's one of the things that should change in the informatic world.
> No matter how MorphOS was developed (by decompilation or otherwise) as long as > that's what they are doing, it will remain illegal.
Maybe in this stupid actual informatic world :-(
But at least they don't lie. MorphOS allow to run Amiga softwares.
And so if I take you in the first degree i'd say that UAE constitute a parasitic compitor and Fellow too and Amithlon too... If we always take the things in the first degree we can make a billion of lawsuits in this world ;)
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 370 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Gelb on 27-Apr-2002 13:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 349 (Samface):
I didn't know you are a pirate? Is this true? And if yes, why do you consider it as an insult?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 371 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 13:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 368 (Samface):
This: "Once more you showed your lack of understanding what you read."
combined with this: "The announcement or none of the advertising refers to it as an Amiga compatible computer, rather a next generation Amiga computer. Big difference."
Shows you're being a hypocrite. Where is it stated that Pegasos is a next generation Amiga computer?
Also, the MorphOS announcement claimed that MorphOS is a next generation
OS for the Amiga. This means a NextGen OS to run on Amigas. p.OS was also
stating the same...
Now who can't understand what he reads?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 372 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 13:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 369 (Frodon):
>Sorry but I don't understand the problem here? UAE isn't delivered with any
>Kickstart ROM or AmigaOS. It is clearly specified in the doc when you download
>it that you have to have an Amiga and have legally owned AmigaOS to use UAE.
>UAE itself is not illegal in hat point. What is illegal is if someone use it
>with a pirated Kickstart ROM or/and AmigaOS.
Read again:
"Developers may use a dump of an original system BIOS in developing an emulator, but the final or public release version of that emulator cannot require its use in order to function."
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 373 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 13:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 368 (Samface):
Hello,
> That is right as long as you talk about the Quark kernel, which wasn't the
> subject. The question was; does the MorphOS use the AmigaROM in any way when
> launching the AmigaOS ontop of their 68k emulator?
> Once more you showed your lack of understanding what you read.
Maybe because you weren't enough clear ;-))) And I can return this remark to you too in some cases ;)
About that I don't know. but actually in the MorphOS running on current Amigas it'd be legal anyway as the users have owned the ROMs legally. But in the Pegasos case they simply CAN'T use the rom at all as most of the ROM is hardware dependent. So they don't use it in the Pegasos version and the ROM would be useless anyway for that hardware ;)
> The announcement or none of the advertising refers to it as an Amiga
> compatible computer, rather a next generation Amiga computer. Big difference.
Ok they have advertised that because they envisage it as the logical future of the Amiga as we know it today. That is their opinion and lot of marketing stuffs are often opinion like M$ saying that Windows XP is very stable, beautifull...etc ;)
> And no proof has been shown. What does that tell you?
That tell me that the MorphOS Team are fed up of the law stupid stuffs that's why they won't answer except of course if a lawsuits is engaged against us. But don't worry they know that their product is legal. Personally that discussions make me think that we see children in a recreation saying "cild 1: No it's mine!. child2: No, it's mine!....".
> I don't act as a judge just because I know how to find a quote from the laws
> regarding software emulation. Regarding this specific issue, the laws seem to
> be clear. If you don't know of a way to prove me wrong, then don't claim that
> I am.
Ok good, but saying that laws are clear show that you don't knwo how laws are amde. They are made for justice and to be as equal as possible between peoples. If the laws where clear lawyers would be useless ;-)
The work of a lawyer is to try to find things in laws that can defend his case. And it's always possible to find stuff that can defend one and the other party in a specific case.
> Once more, jumping on someone's personality is a sign of desperation. You
> don't see me insulting you or your personality, now do you?
Wahou!! Why do you feel targeted? You are just like most of the people in this earth. It's not insults, it's constatations on the humanity in its globality ;)
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 374 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 13:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 371 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
"Where is it stated that Pegasos is a next generation Amiga computer?"
Not computer, next-generation OS.
"Also, the MorphOS announcement claimed that MorphOS is a next generation
OS for the Amiga. This means a NextGen OS to run on Amigas. p.OS was also
stating the same..."
Which MorphOS is not entitled to do. I don't know about p.OS but it really doesn't matter as you can't say "they got away with it, then it has to be legal". Would you say the same to the police officer when he stops you for jumping a red light?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 375 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 27-Apr-2002 13:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 357 (Kronos):
Stefan, this is nothing new.
I posted this stuff weeks ago.
Not my fault that your sudden conversion to the MorphOS camp is impairing your memory.
Before you reply, I would kindly request that you read a book about the "Gesetz gegen Unlauteren Wettbewerb" (Unfair competition act).
Then you'll know that it is hopeless.
David: I have here a bPlan/MorphOS flyer distributed at the Cologne Show in November of 2001 which specifically states "Workbench required".
Now whether or not this is still the case is not the point but it clearly illustrates the continuous reference to the AmigaOS.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 376 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 27-Apr-2002 13:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 350 (Samface):
SAMFACE U ARE AN IDIOT WHO NEVER GIVES UP
LOOK THE BONE IS PICKED CLEAN ALREADY
ure FUD is not helping amiga inc or os4..
infact you are very misinformed
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 377 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 27-Apr-2002 13:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 356 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>Ben is a lawyer
is he?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 378 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 13:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 372 (Samface):
Hello,
You said:
"Developers may use a dump of an original system BIOS in developing an emulator, but the final or public release version of that emulator cannot require its use in order to function."
Most of the emulators out there use original system BIOS/ROM. And a law say that's legal IF the final user own the original ROM.
There is two way of making an emulator, the first one is to use the original ROM. This way is often the more efficient to allow the best compatibility.
The second way is to rewrite a compatible systeme using documented APIs or/and reverse engineering (Which is legal as said by Hermans) but not decompilation (illegal in some cases).
Both this two ways are legals. The MorphOS A/Box one is the second one.
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 379 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 27-Apr-2002 13:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 375 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Now whether or not this is still the case is not the point but it clearly >.illustrates the continuous reference to the AmigaOS.
in development state? the flyer was not about a product that was actually released was it ben?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 380 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 13:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 375 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Before you reply, I would kindly request that you read a book about
>the "Gesetz gegen Unlauteren Wettbewerb" (Unfair competition act).
Somebody who is not allowed to practise in Germany speaks about German laws. Nice.
>David: I have here a bPlan/MorphOS flyer distributed at the Cologne Show in
>November of 2001 which specifically states "Workbench required".
That's all you have? A flyer that might not be valid anymore? Come back when
you have better arguments.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 381 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 13:46 GMT
Hello,
A little ironic remark:
Samface have openly sayed publicly some times ago that he use pirate softwares liek AmIRC by saying: "Why should I buy AmIRC when I can use it freely with a pirate key?"
And today he play the role of a law specialist. It's ironic, isn't it? ;)))
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 382 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 13:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 373 (Frodon):
>So they don't use it in the Pegasos version and the ROM would be useless
>anyway for that hardware ;)
It doesn't matter, what I'm talking about is the officially released version which I find to be illegal. What is officially released to the public is the only thing that counts when it comes to these kind of legal matters.
>Ok they have advertised that because they envisage it as the logical future of
>the Amiga as we know it today. That is their opinion and lot of marketing
>stuffs are often opinion like M$ saying that Windows XP is very stable,
>beautifull...etc ;)
There's a big difference between claiming that you're product is great and making use of someone's IP. The latter is illegal.
>That tell me that the MorphOS Team are fed up of the law stupid stuffs that's
>why they won't answer except of course if a lawsuits is engaged against us.
Think what you want about the law, it's still necessary obey them. These issues are very harmful to their creditability and resolving these issues should be in their own interest.
>Ok good, but saying that laws are clear show that you don't knwo how laws are >amde. They are made for justice and to be as equal as possible between >peoples. If the laws where clear lawyers would be useless ;-)
I said; "Regarding this specific issue..."
>The work of a lawyer is to try to find things in laws that can defend his
>case. And it's always possible to find stuff that can defend one and the other
>party in a specific case.
That's why I keep saying; prove me wrong!
>Wahou!! Why do you feel targeted?
Because you replied to me? Anyway, no need to discuss that any further.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 383 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 13:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 381 (Frodon):
That's simply one big lie. Never have I said such thing and I know several people which can verify this to you. May I remind you that spreading lies about people like that is illegal?
I'm sorry Frodon but you just lost all credibility in the world and I see no point in ever discussing anything with you again. Have a nice life.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 384 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 13:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 383 (Samface):
You lost yours long time ago when it became clear that your nothing more than a
pirate. <mid 90s> But hey you're an AmigaOS fan, at least it's common knowledge
that Amiga users are pirates. </mid 90s>
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 385 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 27-Apr-2002 14:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 375 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>...that your sudden conversion to the MorphOS camp...
You should know why that happened, and to make clear
you simply crossed a borderline and your posts here
show that you still don't understand where that line
lies.
>"Gesetz gegen Unlauteren Wettbewerb"
I don't have to read it to remember how most of this
cases end. Depending on the made "damage" and some
other things the judge sets a small fine, bPlan would
have to pay the court and sign a paper that entitles
AInc to get more money if it ever happens again.
No way you gone "kill" MorphOS this way.
The incedent happened long before A1/COS4 or Pegssos/
MOS will be available and were only noticed by members
of the community. Most of them knew that before, so
there is no really big damage done.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 386 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 14:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 382 (Samface):
Hello,
Samface said:
> It doesn't matter, what I'm talking about is the officially released version
> which I find to be illegal. What is officially released to the public is the
> only thing that counts when it comes to these kind of legal matters.
Yes you are right to say "which I FIND to be illegal". Because there is law in EU and in the US to that allow people to make product dependent to another product as soon as he don't distribute the other product with it's product.
That's mean if the end user buy the other product by himself. This law apply to any products including emulators. It's legal to make a emualtor dependent to a system BIOS/ROM if the end user own the original system BIOS/ROM himself.
> There's a big difference between claiming that you're product is great and
> making use of someone's IP. The latter is illegal.
Maybe, maybe not, I don't know the laws about marketing and I don't think you know them. lot of software products out there have been advertised with this kind of methods. Lindows for example, Star Writer which claim to allow to read and write word documents... etc But knowing if it's legal I don't think you know more than me.
> Think what you want about the law, it's still necessary obey them. These
> issues are very harmful to their creditability and resolving these issues
> should be in their own interest.
Here you show how bad you can interpret what you read. Ignoring accusation of someone about illegality of your product don't mean at all that you don't obey to the law. Else why sometimes people who sue someone or a company don't win? Simply because accusations on the cases, are wrong. And it's the choice of the MorphOS Team to ignore or not the accusation. And personally I'd do the same if someone accuse me and I know that it's completely wrong.
> I said; "Regarding this specific issue..."
Even in this specific issue my remark on laws apply perfectly as you interpreted the law differently from some others that show it's not clear ;)
> That's why I keep saying; prove me wrong!
To prove you WRONG is not the role of me or anybody else here. Here everybody give their opinions. But the only people that can PROVE something in any cases is a judge. It's evident that you won't change your opinion despite what we can say you because of you are sure of what you've understood or read even if it's wrong. That's how most of humans are :(
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 387 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 14:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 384 (David Scheibler):
You don't know what you're talking about. Attacking me personally just degrades your own creditability, not mine.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 388 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 14:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 387 (Samface):
Exactly. It always draws a bad light on you if you want to discuss with a
pirate. They don't have any arguments. They are just breaking the law.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 389 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 14:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 386 (Frodon):
Everything you just said >NIL:
Read your mail, Frodon.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 390 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 389 (Samface):
Hello Samface,
I've answered to your mail, check your mailbox.
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 391 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 14:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 386 (Frodon):
I'm sorry, Frodon. An emulator which requires the system's original BIOS/ROM in order to function is illegal, it's the law. UAE is illegal because it requires the system's original BIOS/ROM in order to function, just like the current release of MorphOS. There's nothing to argue about, it's clear as chrystal. There's no point of denying this unless you have proof of otherwise, ok?
</discussion>
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 392 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 14:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 388 (David Scheibler):
And so are people spreading lies about others.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 393 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by defrisselle on 27-Apr-2002 14:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 365 (David Scheibler):
>Although I doubt that you understand the court decision written in German
>here it is:
>http://home.t-online.de/home/R.Benda/story3_4.html
>
>Please note the quote of the court decision (from 16.07.1997) starts here:
>"In der Sache (...)".
Hippocrite...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 394 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 14:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 391 (Samface):
Hello,
Samface said:
> I'm sorry, Frodon. An emulator which requires the system's original BIOS/ROM
> in order to function is illegal, it's the law. UAE is illegal because it
> requires the system's original BIOS/ROM in order to function, just like the
> current release of MorphOS. There's nothing to argue about, it's clear as
> chrystal. There's no point of denying this unless you have proof of otherwise,
> ok?
Ok but you don't put proof yourself! Here in France I know that a law exist about that saying it's legal. If you want I can search the law. But you also give me the law text.
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 395 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by agima on 27-Apr-2002 15:03 GMT
What juristictions of law are in play? International? US? EU? GR?
And is MorphOS like WINE, a API compatability layer?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 396 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Chisholm on 27-Apr-2002 15:06 GMT
Oh, come on people! Can't you just get a life and stop arguing about something that is going to lead you nowhere? There is no point in trying to quarrel about the legality or illegality of MorphOS until a court decides, so just put an end to this pointless dispute. Let the court decide about the legal issues and let the user decide about the 'which OS is better?' question. If you prefer one above the other that is your decision, but don't just pretend you are being impartial about this. The comments from both sides are just incomplete, based on non-factual information, clueless or complete biased. Why don't you just wait for the products to be released and for the legal matters to be settled? All that these things are doing is harming an already badly injured community. I wish both OS's and hardware platforms good luck, but with people like you around I cannot simply see a bright future.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 397 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 27-Apr-2002 15:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 391 (Samface):
"An emulator which requires the system's original BIOS/ROM in order to function is illegal, it's the law."
ROTFL!!!
Yeah, right SamFace.
Prove it. Point us to the exact law which renders it illegal, please.
Put up or shut up. Although we all know you will do neither, and just carry on with your erroneous legal "wisdom" which seems to consist purely of your own wishes rather than hard fact.
Ho hum.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 398 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 15:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 395 (agima):
Hello,
MorphOS is an Operating System with its own kernel (Quark) and which include an AmigaOS API compatible layer A/Box.
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 399 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 15:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 397 (Keith Blakemore-Noble):
I've already proved it in several posts in this thread, Keith. Laugh all you want but that IS the facts, regardless of how much you ignore them.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 400 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Gus on 27-Apr-2002 15:38 GMT
398 comments on this one item - come on guys - chill out and go and do something a little less boring.
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