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[News] AFUA visited Thendic-FranceANN.lu
Posted on 24-Apr-2002 15:30 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä629 comments
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The French Amiga user group AFUA visited the Thendic-France headquarters and met with Bill Buck and the Coyote Flux guys. Read their report here.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 401 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 15:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 398 (Frodon):
Not again, Frodon. I never said the MorphOS doesn't have it's own kernel. What I said is that the current release of MorphOS emulates the 68k and makes use the AmigaROM in order to run AmigaOS and Amiga applications. The law specificly states that this is illegal which I've pointed out time and time again. Now stop this already.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 402 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 15:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 399 (Samface):
Hello Samface,
Sorry but about he legacy of Emulators with require ROMs I've parcoured the websites about that and the law is clear. They are perfectly legal as soon as the user owns the ROM. Just make a little search on the Net with google and you'll find this too by searching: "law + emulation".
And sorry but you didn't give any valid proof, just stuffs you affirming without any URL or indices where to find confirmations. And I'm now certain that you are wrong because I prove it ;)
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 403 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 27-Apr-2002 15:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 399 (Samface):
No, SamFace, you have not "proved" it.
Point us to the law. THAT is the only valid form of proof.
you have so far failed utterly to point us to where this mythical law may be found.
You are completely totally and utterly WRONG (deliberately so, might one ask?).
Tell me, SamFace-the-lawyer. If I run UAE on my Amiga, what laws am I breaking?
Remember, YOU are the one who claims that is illegal. So explain HOW and point us to the laws concerned.
Put up or shut up. As I predicted, so far you have done neither.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 404 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 15:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 401 (Samface):
The CURRENT version of MorphOS doesn't... 0.4 is anything but current.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 405 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 15:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 401 (Samface):
Hello,
You said:
> What I said is that the current release of MorphOS emulates the 68k and
> makes use the AmigaROM in order to run AmigaOS and Amiga applications. The
> law specificly states that this is illegal which I've pointed out time and
> time again. Now stop this already.
About that there is no proof to affirm such a stuff. Even me I don't know if MorphOS use Amiga ROM and you don't know too.
And as i'm now certain that it's not illegal at all as soon as the user owns the ROM (And in this case he owns it as he bought the Amiga which include the ROMs ;) ). So even if MorphOS use the ROMs IT IS LEGAL in both EU and US. Just check the laws more carefully. But I and you even don't know if MorphOS really use them anyway.
So stop speaking about that now as it is now certain that it's legal and if you say again that it's not you are simply WRONG so don't try, that'll just show us that you stay fixed on your point stupidly.
So now stop talking on things you don't know or you know badly. Here I figured out that you misunderstood the law.
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 406 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Apr-2002 15:54 GMT
Mr Hermans, where does your term "parasitic competition" come from? I know no
equivalent in German law, so I think you only made this up to malign MOS & people.
Implying a comparison to such low lifeforms is just plain rude, but then we all
know your "respect" for American school system graduates...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 407 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by ahhh... on 27-Apr-2002 15:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 398 (Frodon):
So, This A/Box is line WINE then...? This is sounding like Lindows. WINE or WINE components on top of a Linux kernel.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 408 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 16:07 GMT
Hello,
Here proof that you can use ROM for personal use and also that using ROM by a software developer is legal: (original document: http://www.eidolons-inn.de/emufaq2000/EmuFAQ_Y2KAddendum2.htm)
"Running under emulation: As we all know by now, emulation is perfectly legal. It is a fact that many emulators are literally works-in-progress and require ROM forms of programs in order to work. It is a fact that <b>developers and emucoders are the only ones who currently have the legal right to make as many ROMs as they need of whatever programs they want for their various projects</b> (Sega v. Accolade). Guess what? I'm not an emucoder. I'm not a software developer. Why can't I make a ROM from a game that I've already bought or obtained through other legitimate means? I have the original sitting right here, and I have the means to make the ROM. I'm not about to start up a software piracy operation. All I want to do is run my legitmately obtained program on an emulator, which is my legal right. <b>As long as it's going to be for personal use, then I have the right to make a non-infringing ROM of that program (Sony v. Universal) and run it on my non-infringing emulator (Sony v. Connectix).</b>"
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 409 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 16:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 407 (ahhh...):
Hello,
You said:
"So, This A/Box is line WINE then...? This is sounding like Lindows. WINE or WINE components on top of a Linux kernel."
Yes that's quite exactly the same. A/Box run on top of the Quark kernel (MorphOS Kernel) like WINE is running on top of Linux kernel under Linux and with Lindows.
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 410 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 16:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 408 (Frodon):
Well the problem Samface has is that he doesn't see that the ROM/emulation
pages he quotes have nothing todo with the Amiga/MorphOS case. You have to differ two things:
1) Is it legal to use an emulator on a computer with a ROM you got from a second computer you own. Example: UAE on PC using your Amiga ROM.
That's questionable. Some say it isn't allowed, other say it's legal.
2) Is it allowed to use an emulator on a computer to emulate the computer you run the emulator on using your computer's ROM. Example: UAE running on your Amiga; MorphOS 0.4 running on your Amiga.
Of course it is. You can't forbid any developer to read data in the memory of
your computer. Or could DCE forbid you to write data to a specific memory
address (i.e. of the BVision)? Of course not.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 411 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 16:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 410 (David Scheibler):
Hello David,
You are perfectly right and what I quotes in the comment 408 show also that even the first point is legal ;-)
Thanks for your contribution ;)
This is the end on the ROM debate at last :-)
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 412 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by ic on 27-Apr-2002 17:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 409 (Frodon):
I see, Thank you.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 413 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 17:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 408 (Frodon):
No, I'm sorry but read what the text says and read it carefully:
"As long as it's going to be for personal use, then I have the right to make a non-infringing ROM of that program (Sony v. Universal) and run it on my non-infringing emulator (Sony v. Connectix)."
Now, let's examine what that means:
What's a non-infringing ROM? Is a copy of the AmigaROM infringing? Well, as many vital parts of the AmigaOS is contained within it, I'd say it is. What he means by a non-infringing ROM in this case is a game which the user has purchased and is licensed to use any way he wants as long as it's personal use. This, however, does not apply to a system's BIOS/ROM.
Then consider this; what's a non-infringing emulator? Well, as you can see it refers to the Sony vs. Connectix case which Sony lost due to the fact that Bleem! (the PSX emulator by Connectix) did NOT make use of the Playstation's system BIOS/ROM. This was decisive to the entire case.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 414 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 17:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 413 (Samface):
Hello Samface,
That's not important because as pointed by David this case don't apply to MorphOS sorry ;)
You said also:
> Then consider this; what's a non-infringing emulator? Well, as you can see it
> refers to the Sony vs. Connectix case which Sony lost due to the fact that
> Bleem! (the PSX emulator by Connectix) did NOT make use of the Playstation's
> system BIOS/ROM. This was decisive to the entire case.
No Bleem isn't the PSX emulator of Connectix sorry ;-) Connectix have make the Virtual Game Station emulator for Mac and PC. I don't know if it use BIOS/ROM or not. But the law about that isn't the same in all countries so in some it's legal in others no.
To conclude, the BIOS/ROM legal problem that you figure out does not apply to MorphOS because he run on the computer itself. So MorphOS 0.4 for current Amigas even if he use the ROM is legal because he don't use a copy of the run or don't even dump them he just read the ROM chip directly and this is of course legal ;)
And on Pegasos MorphOS won't need a copy of the ROMs at all and maybe not the AmigaOS at all too...
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 415 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 17:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 410 (David Scheibler):
I'm sorry mr I-do-personal-insults-when-I-get-desperate but you're wrong once more. The ROM contained within your hardware is not like a game ROM, you cannot use it anyway you want. This was made clear in the Sony vs. Connectix case and this is the laws concerning the use of BIOS/ROM image files or "dumps":
--- 8< ---
"It is illegal for the average user to produce, distribute, or use an unauthorized dump of the BIOS of a computer system.
Users cannot fool around with the original system BIOS or its internal microcode in any way without the authorization of the original system vendor. Emulator developers have a limited right to do as they please not only with the system BIOS, but any other system code stored within system firmware, so long as that code is not protected by patent and their final product is noninfringing. Developers may use a dump of an original system BIOS in developing an emulator, but the final or public release version of that emulator cannot require its use in order to function."
--- >8 ---
Anything else is simply not true.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 416 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 17:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 414 (Frodon):
Sigh... Frodon, please... Now you *really* don't know what you're talking about. Please study the Sony vs. Connectix case before you make any more comments.
Regarding the use of the AmigaROM within MorphOS; it doesn't matter if it makes an image file of it or not, it still makes use of it which is still illegal.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 417 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 17:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 415 (Samface):
So Warp3D is illegal? WarpUp is illegal? All of them are accessing memory
directly and reading and even writing to it. I doubt they asked DCE/p5 before
to do it...
You are simply clueless. Maybe you should notice that the M in "ROM" does not
stand for "MorphOS".
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 418 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 17:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 415 (Samface):
>It is illegal for the average user to produce, distribute, or use an
>unauthorized dump of the BIOS of a computer system.
Exactly. But *only* if you use this dump on *another* computer than the one the
ROM is from.
What you're saying is that you're not allowed to make direct memory accesses on your own computer.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 419 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 416 (Samface):
>Regarding the use of the AmigaROM within MorphOS; it doesn't matter if it
>makes an image file of it or not, it still makes use of it which is still
>illegal.
Nonsense.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 420 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by a Clue on 27-Apr-2002 18:01 GMT
From the Wine KnowledgeBase (Might be relivant)
"What undocumented APIs / interfaces are not understood? Would seeing Microsoft source help?
amohr@codeweavers.com
Subcategories:
Answers in this category:
The best would be if the Windows API was fully documented,
so Wine could be a perfect "clean-room" implementation.
Seeing the source code might make it harder to prove that no copyright
violations have taken place.
That said, the documentation is often bad, nonexistent, and even misleading
where it exists, so a fair amount of reverse engineering have been necessary,
particularly in the shell (Explorer) interface."
Important terms might be "fully documented" and "clean-room". Now if the Legality of MorphOS was challenged legally in court the burdon of proof would be on the MorphOS crew to prove "clean room" implementation from "fully documented" APIs or similar.
But, the Issue seems to be one of Marketing according to Mr. Ben Hermans. So, I'm not sure why people are takeing about software, ROMs, source code, If Amiga, Inc. and partners feel the issue is Marketing (that would be past, present, and future Marketing by the MorphOS team).
Sorry, just trying to make sence of this. Til any legal action is taken, I'm not sure anyone can say where either party stands, as we won't know what the exact legal issue is unless legal papers are filed. Everything else is just posturing.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 421 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 417 (David Scheibler):
Then sue Hyperion for making an emulator that uses the AmigaROM, then...
HINT: Warp3D is hardly an emulator making use of the AmigaROM, now is it?
Also, WarpUP flushes out the PowerUP kernel and does NOT make use of the PowerUP kernel in any way. Am I making myself clear, mr "I-do-personal-insults-when-I-get-desperate"?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 422 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 421 (Samface):
They are using the memory on the BVision. That's forbidden as you say...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 423 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 418 (David Scheibler):
Direct memory access is hardly the same thing as direct ROM access, now is it? I'm sorry but you're way off track here and your arguments make no sense what so ever, why am I arguing with you in the first place?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 424 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 423 (Samface):
>Direct memory access is hardly the same thing as direct ROM access, now is it?
Sammy. For what does M stand in ROM?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 425 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 422 (David Scheibler):
Please, David. Has anyone ever told you the difference between ROM and RAM? I guess not. Go study, ok?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 426 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 425 (Samface):
Tell me the difference please. Come on.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 427 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 424 (David Scheibler):
The meaning of the R & O is the whole point of it; READ-ONLY!
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 428 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 427 (Samface):
Exactly! So what MorphOS is doing is *reading* the ROM out... Nothing more or less.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 429 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 426 (David Scheibler):
RAMRandom Access Memory
ROMRead Only Memory
See the difference? You cannot write anything to a ROM while RAM is what you use for random access memory.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 430 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 428 (David Scheibler):
Reading from it isn't illegal, using it for emulation is.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 431 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 429 (Samface):
>See the difference? You cannot write anything to a ROM while RAM is what you
>use for random access memory.
Why should MorphOS write something to the ROM directly?!
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 432 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 430 (Samface):
No it is not. It would *maybe* be illegal if I would store it on a floppy then
go to the PC and use it with an emulator. But we're speaking about the very
same computer.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 433 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 431 (David Scheibler):
Where did I claim that MorphOS would WRITE to the ROM? Nowhere. You see, you're not reading or not even trying to understand what I write at all, MorphOS makes use of the ROM for emulating an Amiga and running the AmigaOS. All other circumstances is besides the point, comprende?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 434 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 433 (Samface):
And that's perfectly legal.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 435 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 432 (David Scheibler):
*HOW* MorphOS makes use of the AmigaROM when emulating is irrelevant as the law specificly states that simply making use of it when emulating is illegal.
1 + 12 = simple logic
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 436 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 435 (Samface):
Which law?
What you're always quoting is a website that speaks about the case that you use
the ROM on another computer than the one you emulate.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 437 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Apr-2002 18:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 434 (David Scheibler):
Let's quote the law once more, from http://www.void.jump.org/EmuFAQ2000/EmuFAQ_M2P2.htm:
"Developers may use a dump of an original system BIOS in developing an emulator, but the final or public release version of that emulator cannot require its use in order to function."
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 438 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 436 (David Scheibler):
No, what hardware they emulate on is not even defined and isn't relevant. More info: http://www.void.jump.org/EmuFAQ2000/
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 439 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 437 (Anonymous):
That's no law what you're quoting. Show me the law and the $$. Come on Mr
lawyer.
And the website does only speak about cases in which the emulated machine is
not the machine you run the emulator on.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 440 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 438 (Samface):
Exactly they didn't define it because they only speak about the obvious
scenario that you're emulating the machine which is not the machine you run the
emulator on.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 441 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 439 (David Scheibler):
More info: http://www.void.jump.org/EmuFAQ2000/
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 442 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 18:35 GMT
Dear Samface,
You really seem to think that people are stupid. Sorry but Yes BIOS/ROM dumping, copying..etc is illegal, but reading a ROM directly is not illegal!! Lot of Amiga softwares read the ROM to work. As soon as the products are running on the hardware where the ROM are soldered then it's legal. Of course if a software use BIOS/ROMs dumping to run on a different hardware it's illegal but MorphOS DOESN'T!
About the Connectix case, I don't know what disturb you in what I said. I just said that Connectix PSX emulator is Connectix Virtual Game Station and not Bleem! just visit the Connectix homepage ;) I know it because i've used this emulator on my Mac ;) And I also said that I DON'T KNOW if it use the BIOS/ROM or not. That's only mean that I DON'T KNOW!! Do you understand?
So here a uncontestable conclusion: MorphOS on current Amigas is legal because he just read the BIOS/ROMs chip DIRECTLY because it runs on the hardware DIRECTLY it don't need to do any dumping or other illegal stuffs.
And don't try to argue anymore, you are simply wrong saying MorphOS is illegal because he use the BIOS/ROMs because it's legal that a software running on an hardware read the ROM chips of THIS hardware. So now stop saying wrong things. Thanks in advance.
Regards
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 443 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 441 (Samface):
I just read that website again.
What they define as ROM dumping is reading the ROM and saving it on disk to use
in another computer. That's not allowed. They nowhere speak about reading the
ROM in RAM which is the case with MorphOS and is of course legal.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 444 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 439 (David Scheibler):
I hoped it never had to come to this but anyway, here goes:
Laws and statues (United States):
The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (18 USC 1030).
The Copyright Act of 1976 (17 USC 101, et. seq., amended 1980, 1988, 1998).
The Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998 (amends U.S. Copyright Act).
The Electronic Communications Privacy Act (18 USC 2510, et. seq.).
The Landham Act (15 USC 1051, et. seq.).
The Patent Act (35 USC 1, et. seq.).
The Semiconductor Chip Protection Act (17 USC 901, et. seq.).
The Stored Wire and Electronic Communications Transactional Records Act (18 USC 2701, et. seq.).
The Intellectual Property Rights Act (37 CFR)
Laws and statues (other):
The Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. 828 UNTS 221 (1886, amended 1928, 1971).
Court cases:
Allen-Myland, Inc. v. International Business Machines, Inc (IBM). 33 F.3d 194 (3rd Cir., 1994).
American Geophysical Union v. Texaco, Inc. 37 F.3d 881, 894 (2nd Cir., 1994).
Apple Computer, Inc. v. Franklin Computer Corporation. 714 F.2d 1240 (3rd Cir., 1983), 464 U.S. 1033 (1984).
Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp. No. 93-16883 (9th Cir., 1994).
Asahi Metal Industry Co. v. Superior Court. 480 U.S. 102, 112 (1987).
Atari Games Corp. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. 975 F.2d 832 (1992), No. 91-1293 (9th. Cir., 1992).
Atari, Inc. v. JS&A Group, Inc. 597 F.Supp. 5 (N.D. Ill, 1983).
Bally Total Fitness Holding Corp. v. Andrew S. Faber. 29 F.Supp. 2d 1161 (C.D. Cal, 1998).
CompuServe, Inc. v. Richard S. Patterson and Flashpoint Development. (9th Cir., 1996).
Diamond v. Diehr. 450 U.S. 175 (1981).
Digital Communications Assoc. Inc. v. Softklone Distrib. Corp. 449 F. Supp 449 (N.D. Ga., 1987).
Franklin Mint, Inc., v. Franklin Mint, Ltd. 331 F.Supp 827, 830 (E.D. Pa., 1971).
Futuredontics, Inc. v. Applied Anagramics, Inc., et. al. No. 97-6991 (C.D. Cal, 1998), also No. 97-56711 (9th. Cir., 1998).
Harper & Row Publishers, Inc. v. Nation Enterprises. 471 U.S. 539, 592 (1985).
In re Compton's New Media. USPTO No. 5241671, Control No. 90/003270 (1994).
Intel Corp. v. Advanced Micro Designs (AMD). 12 F.3d 908 (9th Cir., 1993)
Intermatic, Inc. v. Toeppen. Magistrate's Report (N.D. Ill, 1996).
International Shoe Co. v. Washington. 326 U.S. 310, 316 (1945).
Kewanee Oil v. Bicron Corp. 416 U.S. 470 (1974).
Lasercomb America v. Reynolds. 911 F.2d 970 (4th Cir., 1990).
Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. 964 F.2d 965 (9th Cir, 1992).
Lotus Dev. Corp. v. Borland Int'l, Inc. 49 F.3d 807 (1st Cir., 1995), aff'd per curiam U.S., No. 94-2003 (1996).
M. Kramer Mfg. v. Andrews. 783 F.2d 421 (4th Cir., 1986)
MAI Systems Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc. 991 F.2D 511, 518 (9th Cir., 1993).
Maritz, Inc. v. Cybergold, Inc. 947 F.Supp 1328 (D. Mo., 1996).
MiTeK Holdings, Inc. v. ArcE Engineering Co. No. 94-5262 (11th Cir., 1996).
Mirage Editions, Inc. v. Albuquerque A.R.T. Co. 856 F.2d 1341, 1343 (9th Cir., 1988), 489 U.S. 1018 (1989).
Narrell v. Freeman. 872 F.2d 907, 913 (9th Cir., 1989).
New West Corp. v. NYM Co. of California, Inc. 595 F.2d 1194, 1201 (9th Cir., 1979).
NEC Corp. v. Intel Corp. 10 U.S.P.Q.2d (BNA) 177 (N.D. Cal., 1989)
Nintendo of America, Inc. v. Computer & Entertainment, Inc. No. 96-0187 (W.D. Cal., 1996).
Nintendo of America, Inc. v. Dragon Pacific Intern. 40 F.3d 1007 (9th Cir., 1994).
Nintendo of America, Inc. v. NTDEC. 51 F.3d 281 (9th Cir., 1995).
Panavision International v. Toeppen. 938 F.Supp. 616 (C.D. Cal, 1996).
Penwalt v. Durand-Weyland, Inc. 833 F.2d 931 en banc, 4 USPQ 2d 1737 (Fed. Cir., 1987).
Playboy Enterprises, Inc. v. George Frena. 839 F.Supp. 1552 (M.D. Fla., 1993).
Playboy Enterprises, Inc. v. Terri Welles. 7 F.Supp. 2d 1098 (S.D. Cal., 1998).
Playboy Enterprises, Inc. v. Universal Tel-A-Talk, Inc., et. al. No. 96-6961 (E.D. Pa., 1998).
Princeton University Press v. Michigan Document Services. 1996 U.S. App LEXIS 7474 (6th Cir., 1996).
ProCD, Inc. v. Ziedenberg. 86 F.3d 1447 (7th Cir., 1996).
Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) v. Diamond Multimedia Systems. No. 98-5627 (9th Cir., 1999)
Religious Technology Center v. Netcom. No. 96-20091 (N.D. Cal., 1995).
Sega Enterprises, Ltd. v. Accolade, Inc. 977 F. 2d. 1510, 1517 (9th Cir., 1992).
Sega Enterprises, Ltd. v. MAPHIA. 857 F.Supp. 679, 686 (N.D. Cal., 1994).
Shetland Times Ltd v. Dr. Jonathan Wills and Zetnews Ltd. Court of Session, Edinburgh, Scotland (Lord Hamilton, 1996).
Sony Corp. of America v. Connectix, Inc. No 99-15852 (9th Cir, 2000).
Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc. 464 U.S. 417 (1983).
Stac Electronics v. Microsoft Corp. No. 93-0413 (C.D. Cal, 1994).
Subafilms, Ltd. v. MGM-Pathe Communications. 24 F.3d 1088, 1093 (9th Cir., 1994).
Tandy Corp. v. Personal Micro Computers, Inc. 524 F. Supp. 171 (N.D. Cal., 1981).
United States v. David LaMacchia. 871 F.Supp. 535 (D. Mass., 1994).
United States v. Richard D. Kenadek. No. 94-10221 (D. Mass., 1994).
Vault Corporation vs. Quaid Software Ltd. 655 F. Supp. 750 (E.D. La., 1987).
Williams & Wilkins v. United States. 487 F.2d 1345 (1973), 420 U.S. 376 (1975).
Other court cases (dockets not found)
Atari, Inc. v. Coleco. (1983).
International Business Machines, Inc. (IBM) v. Compaq Computer Corp. (1982).
Nintendo of America, Inc. v. Blockbuster Entertainment. (1987)
Nintendo of America, Inc. v. Bung Enterprises and Carl Industries. (C.D. Cal., 1997).
Nintendo of America, Inc. v. Prima Publishing. (W.D. Wash., 1998).
Nintendo of America, Inc. v. Tengen. (1989).
Sony Corporation v. Bleem LLC. (N.D. Cal, 1999).
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AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 445 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 444 (Samface):
Were is the quoted law that reading a ROM into memory is not allowed?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 446 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 18:38 GMT
Hello samface,
This document: http://www.void.jump.org/EmuFAQ2000/ confirm what me and David say. It just say that it's illegal to COPY, DUMP..etc a ROM but it's legal to read the chip directly and he precise that's because of that the A/Max emulator is legal because he use the original chip directly.
Read it better guy!!!
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 447 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by myosotis on 27-Apr-2002 18:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 442 (Frodon):
It's irrelevant if the ROM is dumped to file or used directly when used for emulation. Just that simple! Get IT?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 448 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 442 (Frodon):
>Sorry but Yes BIOS/ROM dumping, copying..etc is illegal, but reading a ROM
>directly is not illegal!! Lot of Amiga softwares read the ROM to work. As soon
>as the products are running on the hardware where the ROM are soldered then
>it's legal. Of course if a software use BIOS/ROMs dumping to run on a
>different hardware it's illegal but MorphOS DOESN'T!
It doesn't matter! An emulator MUST NOT REQUIRE IT'S USE IN ORDER TO FUNCTION.
>About the Connectix case, I don't know what disturb you in what I said. I just >said that Connectix PSX emulator is Connectix Virtual Game Station and not >Bleem! just visit the Connectix homepage ;) I know it because i've used this >emulator on my Mac ;) And I also said that I DON'T KNOW if it use the BIOS/ROM >or not. That's only mean that I DON'T KNOW!! Do you understand?
Please read up about Bleem! You see, Bleem! doesn't exist anymore because Sony (after loosing twice in court when trying to stop their product) purchased the entire company and nowadays they make more Sony friendly products.
>So here a uncontestable conclusion: MorphOS on current Amigas is legal because
>he just read the BIOS/ROMs chip DIRECTLY because it runs on the hardware
>DIRECTLY it don't need to do any dumping or other illegal stuffs.
Still, it uses the AmigaROM for emulating the Amiga in order to run AmigaOS.
>And don't try to argue anymore, you are simply wrong saying MorphOS is illegal
>because he use the BIOS/ROMs because it's legal that a software running on an
>hardware read the ROM chips of THIS hardware. So now stop saying wrong things.
>Thanks in advance.
I'll keep saying this until you have solid proof against me. Simply saying "you are wrong and I am right" won't cut it, ok?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 449 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by myosotis on 27-Apr-2002 18:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 446 (Frodon):
Dear Frodon.
You and david think it's legal. but the law says different. You might think it should be legal but the law says it's ILlegal, simple as that.
Read it and weep...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 450 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 18:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 446 (Frodon):
Tell me a specific qoute where it says "a system's ROM/BIOS is legal to use for emulation if you read from that ROM/BIOS directly". Maybe it's just me beeing tired or whatever, I just don't seem to find it.
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