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[News] AFUA visited Thendic-FranceANN.lu
Posted on 24-Apr-2002 15:30 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä629 comments
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The French Amiga user group AFUA visited the Thendic-France headquarters and met with Bill Buck and the Coyote Flux guys. Read their report here.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 451 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 18:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 447 (myosotis):
Hello,
But the A/Box is not an emulator ;-) like WINE (Wine Is Not an Emulator). The A/Box is an AmigaOS APIs compatible layer for MorphOS. And in fact we don't know if it use the ROM or not, that Samface that make us ANGRY with that fucking ROM legal problem. He try to find problems where there are no problems at all ;) Even Ben Hermans who is a lawyer says that the problem on MorphOS is not here but rather in the competitive aspect (and a little in the decompilation aspect but both have to be proved ;) ).
There is only ONE person that say that MorphOS is legal because of use of BIOS/ROM (which is even NOT SURE), this is Samface who is NOT a lawyer!!!
So all the problem pointed by Samface is based on SPECULATIONS so all this discussion may be completely useless because MorphOS may not use the ROMs at all! ;-)
That's why I say STOP because this discussion may be completely USELESS and CAN'T be done between UNexpertised people like Samface, me or the others. Only lawyers can discuss on it. So stop this discussion NOW!
All people who continue will have to pay me $1000000 for each post ;)))
Bye
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 452 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 27-Apr-2002 18:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 450 (Samface):
"(1)Uses original system BIOS ROMs in a legal fashion (actual chips in special adapter)" See the A/Max Test.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 453 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 18:57 GMT
Hello Samface,
You wanted a PROOF, here it is:
"Jump ahead in time six years to 1988, where a young man named Simon Douglas is working on a product called A-Max that will provide Macintosh emulation for the Amiga. Fully aware of the IBM v. Compaq and Apple v. Franklin lawsuits, he builds his product so that it requires the use of a genuine Macintosh BIOS in order to function. He also designs an external adapter (and later a plug-in card) that will allow users to use the Macintosh BIOS with A-Max without violating Apple's copyrights on the internal BIOS microcode. His foresight is confirmed a year later in the courts, who rule that this use of the Macintosh BIOS in its original format is perfectly legal."
Note the sentence: "His foresight is confirmed a year later in the courts, who rule that this use of the Macintosh BIOS in its original format is perfectly legal."
So the use of a ROM in its ORIGINAL form is legal. PERIOD.
No more discussion allowed, the law have decided.
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 454 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 27-Apr-2002 19:01 GMT
Just a little note, the source document of my quoting is the same as the one i used before.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 455 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Apr-2002 19:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 433 (Samface):
>MorphOS makes use of the ROM for emulating an Amiga
It DOES NOT emulate an Amiga, period!
I still hope you finally get it.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 456 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 19:50 GMT
What's up Sammy? You have no words now? At least I have the guts to admit that
I'm wrong...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 457 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 27-Apr-2002 20:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 455 (Anonymous):
>It DOES NOT emulate an Amiga, period!
>I still hope you finally get it.
from the morphos website (under the OS-BOX button) :
(...)
The 68k emulation is written in C and uses gcc assembler macros where necessary to speed up certain complex instructions.
Even though the emulation is written in C, its structure is on a level where handcoded assembler isn't significantly faster.
A JIT(Just In Time) engine for MorphOS to speed up old 68k programs beyond the current state of the traditional emulation is currently tested in house.
(...)
So Morphos is emulating an amiga, because its needed to run (old)amiga apps...
As do OS4/Amithlon/uae...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 458 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 21:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 457 (catohagen):
An Amiga is MUCH more than a 68k processor...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 459 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Keith Blakemore-Noble on 27-Apr-2002 21:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 457 (catohagen):
catohagen - erm, you do realise that the section you quoted is talking about emulating the 68k instruction set, and the 68k instruction set ONLY, don't you?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 460 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 27-Apr-2002 21:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 458 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>An Amiga is MUCH more than a 68k processor...
ofcourse it is, but why does morphos need a 68k emulator then ?
as i read the morphos faq on the homepage, i get the impression it *is*
emulating an amiga..
(...)
Q: Does MorphOS support or emulate AGA modes?
A: It supports AGA modes. It replaces its graphics.library blit code.
Don't forget to install the provided CGXAGA driver.
Q: Will WarpOS run on MorphOS?
A: Yes. It currently runs.
Q: Will Warp3D run under MorphOS?
A: Yes. It currently runs.
(...)
maybe i'm off track, can someone please explain what the purpose of
morphos *is* ?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 461 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 27-Apr-2002 21:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 456 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
No, I'm just not up to it anymore... I could post just as much more proof as before but it didn't work then so why would it work now...
NO! That does NOT mean my proof which I posted isn't still valid in any way.
</discussion>
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 462 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 27-Apr-2002 21:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 459 (Keith Blakemore-Noble):
>catohagen - erm, you do realise that the section you quoted is talking about
emulating the 68k instruction set, and the 68k instruction set ONLY, don't you?
and why does it need to emulate the 68k instruction set ? to run amiga apps ?
and what are you doing when you run amiga apps ? emulate amiga ?
please correct me...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 463 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by AlphaFoX on 27-Apr-2002 21:27 GMT
The next mega thread to rule them all...
Unbelievable how much effort some put into this topic, just to move in circles.. at least the other thread seemed to have more persons involved.
P.S. Christian, this time I did use the list mode and not flat mode ;-)
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 464 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 21:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 462 (catohagen):
You emulate the m68k instruction set and AmigaOS API, not the Amiga...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 465 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 21:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 461 (Samface):
No, but it means that trying to discuss anything with you is a loss of time
as you never read anything anyone writes except your "crap".
</discussion>
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 466 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 27-Apr-2002 21:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 464 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
ok, thx for clearing that up...it emulates the AmigaOS and not the Amiga hardware
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 467 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 21:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 465 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Loss=waste
Damn beer:))
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 468 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Apr-2002 21:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 467 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
=damned
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 469 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by gz on 27-Apr-2002 22:16 GMT
I don't know jackshit about the laws in question here so Im not even gonna go there.
However it seems to me that if everything that samface is saying is true, there are very few amiga apps that are legal.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 470 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 04:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 469 (gz):
I've only been talking about emulators making use of the original AmigaROM. Is it that many Amiga emulators out there?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 471 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Apr-2002 04:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 460 (catohagen):
>as i read the morphos faq on the homepage, i get the impression it *is*
>emulating an amiga..
>(...)
Exactly, this is without words...
>Q: Does MorphOS support or emulate AGA modes?
>A: It supports AGA modes. It replaces its graphics.library blit code.
>Don't forget to install the provided CGXAGA driver.
See? It doesn't emulate.
>Q: Will WarpOS run on MorphOS?
>A: Yes. It currently runs.
WarpOSno Amiga
>Q: Will Warp3D run under MorphOS?
>A: Yes. It currently runs.
Warp3Dno Amiga
I don't know why you gave us this excerpt, but it's surely nothing to support
your "emulates Amiga" opinion.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 472 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 05:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 453 (Frodon):
Did you read the fine print at the bottom of that case? I guess not, read this:
"The A-Max precedent is important to anyone who may be required to defend the development and subsequent release of an emulator. It established the legality of an unauthorized emulator for a proprietary system so long as it does not infringe upon the original vendor's intellectual property rights."
May I highlight: "...so long as it does not infringe upon the original vendor's intellectual property rights."? Well, that is exactly what this is about, would you deny that using the AmigaROM for making a Amiga compatible OS like MorphOS, announced as an Amiga next-generation PowerPC OS, isn't infringing on Amiga Inc.'s IP? May I point out that this is probably the reason for why Amiga Inc. will prosecute them on "parasitic" marketing grounds?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 473 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 05:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 471 (Anonymous):
MorphOS is no Amiga emulator, but it uses emulation for running the AmigaOS and Amiga applications. It's as simple as that. What are you arguing about, anyway?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 474 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 28-Apr-2002 06:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 440 (David Scheibler):
>Exactly they didn't define it because they only speak about the obvious
>scenario that you're emulating the machine which is not the machine you
>run the emulator on.
Right. He seems to ignore that all the time.
I believe that "our" scenario is not described in these laws he's refering to all the time. And if it should, then there's a hole in the law in my opinion.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 475 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Boy Genius on 28-Apr-2002 06:12 GMT
All arcane legal questions aside. Issues of infringement can be determined in the various national courts. The question is whether or not the various parties decide to litigate. I hope they do not. I wonder if Amiga and Bplan have their paid surrogates litigating this topic in the court of public opinion on this website. I don't see any other way a human being would have that much time on their hands. In a unique Amiga market that was built and sustained by passionate enterprising individuals [outside of whatever company owned the Amiga] who built hardware and wrote software independently, how can we consider destroying viable software and the best hardware now available. We should be glad anyboby even wants to develop for the Amiga. I believe Bplan acted in good faith in a PPC market that Amiga until recently had abandoned. We need Bplan to build the market until Amiga hardware and software is ready. There is room for both in the Amiga market. If we don't save our passions for the expansion of the Amiga market, our platform operating sytems easily can go the way of BeOs and the few remaining Amiga companies will flee to greener pastures.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 476 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 06:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 474 (Anders Kjeldsen):
I'm ignore it because the point isn't valid. Running UAE on LinuxAPUS would be just as illegal.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 477 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 28-Apr-2002 06:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 461 (Samface):
Yeah sure....
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 478 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 28-Apr-2002 06:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 472 (Samface):
Now I'm sure you're just Mr. Hermans little brother (Sorry Ben!).
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 479 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 06:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 475 (Boy Genius):
What if I find the so-called Amiga products you refer to as not Amiga products? Compatible, yes. But then, so is Amithlon. What I want is a clear upgrade path, no simple PPC version of the classic AmigaOS. What I want is a business concept without legality uncertainties but with a promising future. What bPlan and the MorphOS team has to offer, now and in the future, is not what I find even remotely close to make a viable alternative on the computer market. Amiga Inc. has much greater plans with much greater business bartners, with a much greater software technology and what the MorphOS team and their partners is doing is harmful to those plans. I'm sorry but they even marketed their Pegasos as an AmigaOne, for christ sake!
I wouldn't care about the MorphOS and what they do at all if it wasn't for their way of dragging down the Amiga brand into their dirt. That's my reasons and I'll keep distancing the Amiga market from the MorphOS/Pegasos project as long as they keep marketing their crap as an Amiga computer platform. They have QuarkOS and an integrated Amiga emulator runnign on PPC, that's not what I define as an Amiga.
I'm not against those wanting to use their products, why would I be against yet another obscure platform/OS? I'm simply against their way of trying to steal the name, the community and the little market that is left of something that is very dear to me.
I see the former Phase5 team making another A/Box and then people call me beeing naive for believing in Amiga Inc.? I'm sorry but atleast Phase5 had an appropriate license for it...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 480 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 07:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 478 (David Scheibler):
I don't know Ben in person, don't even know what he looks like. I only know that I agree with him on the issues discussed on ANN, nothing more. Sure, patronize me for agreeing with him regarding the legality of MorphOS, call me a law illiterate, whatever... I mean, who am I to stop anyone from beeing ignorant?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 481 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 28-Apr-2002 07:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 480 (Samface):
>I mean, who am I to stop anyone from beeing ignorant?
Well, you could take a look at your own ignorance, for a start? :)
You just clip out whatever you feel like from that web-page without actually thinking much about it;
You don't WANT to see the difference between "dumping of a ROM using hardware" vs "SOFTWARE-reading/using the ROM".
You don't WANT to see the difference in "using a ROM file" and "using the ACTUAL ROM on that very same computer".
As far as I've seen, "your" laws don't cover these scenarios we're talking about.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 482 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 28-Apr-2002 08:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 481 (Anders Kjeldsen):
>You don't WANT to see the difference in "using a ROM file" and "using the ACTUAL ROM on that very same computer".
And the pegasos don't have a kickrom, so *if* morphos needs the amiga rom
it will be using a rom file ?
But as far as i've understand it, morphos have its own 'rom' code and
that can't be illegal ?
But will Morphos be released for Pegasos and also classic systems ?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 483 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 08:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 481 (Anders Kjeldsen):
>You don't WANT to see the difference between "dumping of a ROM using hardware"
>vs "SOFTWARE-reading/using the ROM".
I know the difference, but you don't realize seem to realize the difference between running a system's BIOS/ROM natively and emulated.
>You don't WANT to see the difference in "using a ROM file" and "using the
>ACTUAL ROM on that very same computer".
Same computer but not the same OS or processor. The AmigaROM is a crucial part of the AmigaOS and using it for another competing, commercial OS is infringing on Amiga Inc.'s IP. Another word would be "parasitic marketing".
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 484 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 28-Apr-2002 09:04 GMT
Time to break the 500 mark ? ;) Come on guys, let it rest :)
/Björn
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 485 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Keeith Blakemore-Noble on 28-Apr-2002 09:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 476 (Samface):
SamFace - and running UAE on Amiga - is that illegal?
I note you have so far refused point blank to answer THAT question.
I wonder why?
Nothing to do with the fact that the valid answer is "No", thereby totally blowing your "case"?
Interesting...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 486 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 28-Apr-2002 09:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 483 (Samface):
Hello,
Do you know the difference between an emulator and an APIs compatible layer???
There is a big difference. In the A/Box of MorphOS the only thing emulated is the 68k processor and the rest is natively rewritted APIs compatibles with the AMigaOS APIs. This is the same difference between WINE and VMWare for example. WINE is an Windows APIs compatible layer and VWMare is an PC emulator for Linux. And what do you think the name is WINE?? Because it means Wine Is Not an Emulator!
The A/Box of MorphOS is an AmigaOS APIs compatible layer and so is not an emulator and so it's totally different from UAE.
So all the discussion we had here about emulators and reading the original ROMs by emulator (which has been proven legal) is not applicable AT ALL to MorphOS. Please just go learn a little more how MorphOS work!!! There is no Amiga emulator on MorphOS!!! There is only a 68k emulator and a AmigaOS APIs compatibel layer which is NATIVE (and NOT emulated) rewritten APIs compatible with AmigaOS APIs.
Bye
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 487 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Bandaren on 28-Apr-2002 09:33 GMT
Must have been a very interesting trip to Thendic-France. soon 500+ comments :)
Should one bother to read them?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 488 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Boy Genius on 28-Apr-2002 09:40 GMT
Revenge of the Nerds! The never ending story.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 489 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 09:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 485 (Keeith Blakemore-Noble):
Want a list of posts where I've replied to that?
Keith, don't jump into the end of a long thread without reading earlier posts first, these arguments are running in enough circles anyway...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 490 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 09:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 486 (Frodon):
What you're talking about is what is planned for future versions of MorphOS which isn't relevant to this topic. Let's focus on what is released and available to the public today, ok?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 491 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by gz on 28-Apr-2002 09:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 470 (Samface):
You yourself first claimed:
(SAMFACE)
>>As far as I can tell, noone is ahead of the other as there is no solid proof for anything. Assuming anything is pure speculation and probably only based on what the person *wants* to believe.
Then you back it up by saying:
(SAMFACE)
>>I'm sorry but, there's no way you are going to convince me that speculation is common sense. To me, assuming nothing is common sense.
And then you start with your accusations which are mostly based on SPECULATION as not you, nor me know what's inside MOS code.
(SAMFACE)
>>MorphOS has NOT paid for neither the brand or the rights for doing an official successor of the AmigaOS product line which they try to market their OS as. That's the facts, end of story.
That's YOUR facts, and the way YOU see it.
Currently the only OFFICIAL and latest succeccor of the AmigaOS is OS3.9
In the future there will be OS4, but that's not now is it? MOS is NOT an OFFICIAL AmigaOS, but an independent OS project just like rebol is an independent programming language project.
On the MOS web pages it says: Announcing a new OS project. It doesen't say in big fat cat sized letters: Announcing a new AmigaOS project. The fact that MOS is able to run LEGAL purchased AI licenced version of AOS ontop of current classic HW hardly makes MOS a new AMIGA operating system.
This because MOS in itself is an operating system of its own, and to run amigaOS on top of it, you have to have LEGAL amiga ROM's (which you have in your classic HW) and a legal copy of AmigaOS.
(SAMFACE)
>>You're not allowed to use the product brand or technology owned by someone else when marketing your own product. It's clear as chrystal
I haven't seen the MOS team presenting themselves as Amiga Inc. Have you?
Neither are they calling MOS AmigaOS. Saying you can run your legal copy of Aos ontop of MOS is not anymore "parasitic" than saying you can run opus magellan ontop of wbench. This because you still need to buy the ORIGINAL and legal copy of AOS to get that done. So infact, both parties will get benefit as they can complement on eachother and make the purchase of both products viable.
(SAMFACE)
>>It's "Amiga next-generation PowerPC OS project", they have no right for doing anything "Amiga next-generation", period.
I haven't seen ANY adverts on amiga press where the official (final/commercial)
version of MOS would be advertised at all. MOS states you have to have YOUR copy of AOS to run AOS. So how can that mean MOS is the AmigaOS there?
Also if what you say above would be true (anybody without a licence from AI has NO legal right to develop ANY software for next-gen HW) We would be kinda short of software now would we? That would make the next-gen amiga machines pretty undesirable even among it's own users.
Then you start with the legalities :( whew...
(SAMFACE)
>>Regarding emulation:
The law specificly states that a developer is allowed to use someone else >>ROM/BIOS for reverse engineering but, the officially released version must not depend on it.
There IS NO OFFICIAL/COMMERCIAL/FINAL/READY version of MOS yet! Does the word BETA version mean ANYTHING to YOU!? Also have you taken a peek inside the developer version of MOS code? How the hell can you know what's even in there?
In the beginning of the thread you said:
"there's no way you are going to convince me that speculation is common sense."
It would seem to me that pretty much all of your legalities and doubts about ROM files in MOS (that's not even finished yet) Is based on speculation, as NOT anybody with the exception of the MOS team knows what the whole truth is. That's EXACTLY why AI are ONLY threatening them with legal actions instead of sueing them tomorrow, as they don't know yet forsure if they have a valid case against them or not.
(SAMFACE)
>>The user must not make any copy of the licensed ROM/BIOS, not even for personal use.
(ANONYMOUS)
>>You don't have to be sorry, because MOS doesn't depend on the ROM, they have own code already.
(SAMFACE in reply to ANONYMOUS)
>>That is legal. However, I'm talking about what is officially released, which is the only thing that counts.
>>The downloadable beta is an official release, regardless of timelimit or if it's a finished product or not.
Here you suddenly say that it's legal but then claim that you KNOW that the OFFICIAL version of MOS (which isn't even out there yet) Doesen't apply.
It's your own fixation or way of thinking that a FUCKING beta is somehow the OFFICIAL FINAL and COMMERCIAL version of MOS. By the way, Untill bplan starts to sell MOS for money, AI have to wait before they can sue. They have said so themselves. So I guess it's ok to have the beta for free download, so ppl can test it.
anyway...
you were replied back by someone who I believe knows much more about both coding, HW development and legal stuff than you. The dude behind delfina soundcard among other things:
(TEEMU SUIKKI in reply to SAMFACE)
>>Samface, you may not believe this, but you are wrong. By continuing
the arguing you simply make yourself look more stupid.
Every Amiga program uses AmigaOS ROM. It is not illegal, that's why
the ROM is there for.
There are some programs that replace (patch) parts of the ROM. For
example MCP and such commodities. They are not illegal.
The public morphos release is started from AmigaOS, just like any
other AmigaOS program. Sure it replaces some of ROM code with PPC
native stuff, but that's not any more special than what's MCP is
doing.
Your "law quotation" is for different things. It means emulators that
run on different hardware.. For example, to run UAE on Windows, you
need a copy of Amiga ROM, and getting that is illegal. Running UAE on
Amiga is legal, because you don't need a ROM file.
--
Teemu
(SAMFACE in reply to TEEMU SUIKKI)
>>So, are you saying that MorphOS is running ontop of the AmigaROM, ontop of the AmigaOS, just like any other app? Are you denying that MorphOS uses any kind of dump of the original AmigaROM when launching the AmigaOS?
(TEEMU SUIKKI in reply to SAMFACE)
>>Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. There is no "rom dump" used in
morphos, it uses the ROM which you already have in your Amiga.
--
Teemu
Also may I remind you that Teemu is one of the developers for MOS and therefore should know ALOT more about the insides of MOS than you do.
(NICHOLAI BENALAL in reply to SAMFACE)
>2) The upcoming version for pegasos depends on neither the rom
>nor any diskbased software components from commodore.
(SAMFACE in reply to NICHOLAI BENALAL)
>>I don't care about something non-existent and neither does the law. I'm talking about the existing official release of MorphOS which per definition is illegal and Amiga Inc is free to sue if they like.
WHOAAA! You finally almost got it right (that untill MOS is out for sale the law you have hyped about don't care) However if everyone replying back to you on this thread are WRONG and YOU are RIGHT... Why are AI just sitting with their thumbs up their asses and why don't they just SUE the MOS team already?
AI are probably such goodhearted and richteous ppl that they have thought they wan't to give everyone a fair chance.
(CASEY R WILLIAMS in reply to SAMFACE)
>>The current released version of MorphOS uses the AmigaROM for launching the AmigaOS. MorphOS in itself doesn't require it, it's the AmigaOS which they run ontop of their Quark kernel that does. That doesn't change the fact that their released version still as of today requires the AmigaROM.
Also someone asked you:
>>So every hack and patch is illegal on Amiga? VisualPrefs, BlitzKick, MCP, all
of them illegal.
And your reply:
(SAMFACE)
In reply to Comment 271
BTW: Yes, patching the ROM is illegal as well.
So there you go. It's not just emulators that may patch a ROM, it's a whole shitload of usefull software there are for our miggies yet I haven't seen you burning any VisualPrefs, BlitzKick or MCP disks, or even burning your HD because you had a pirate version of AMIRC on your machine for a couple of weeks, which was admitted by yourself.
You seem like a guy who has a tendency of having to take EVERYTHING to the extreme. The law, morale, amiga and world pollution issues etc... BTW. Did you know that having a pirate copy of a software even for a minute on your hd is ILLEGAL? And you can look that up from the law aswell ;) With your own words:
"The law applies to everyone and it's you're duty as a citizen to know what is legal and what is not."
The fact that your hd is now NTFS formatted doesen't change the fact that the authors of amIRC could SUE your ASS!
To conclude things you even had the balls to say this:
(SAMFACE in reply to DAMMY)
Yeah, why make your product legal? Why pay taxes? Why buy things when you can steal?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 492 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 28-Apr-2002 09:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 487 (Bandaren):
Hello,
Yes it has been a very interesting trip indeed ;)
But has it has been a MorphOS related trip there are always "anti-MorphOS" people that try to find some illegal stuff in MorphOS ;) That would be fun if the "anti-AmigaOS" guys do the same with AmigaOS as if we read the law badly we can also find some illegal stuff were they don't exist ;)
I'm quite impressed how Samface lose his time trying to find parts of the laws that could invalid MorphOS but he don't have the knowledges to do it correctly and he read just parts of laws but if he had read the laws completely and correctly he should have noticed that laws have always EXCEPTIONS ;)
yesterday I and David have shown him one of this exception that prove that reading an ROM in its original form (the original chip) by an emulator (vermind if he don't run on the same hardware or OS) is legal with the example of the A-Max emulator which is an hardware based Macintosh emulator and use the original Mac rom chips for AmigaOS (so it runs on Amiga hardware and on AmigaOS) has been proven legal by in the court! And today Samface continue to say that's illegal.
But anyway the MorphOS A-Box is not an emulator, it's an AmigaOS APIs compatible layer with NATIVE rewritten APIs compatible with AmigaOS APIs the only thing it emulate is the 68k processor so even if Samface were right with its argument (but it has been proven wrong ;) ), it'd not be applicable the the MorphOS A/Box case.
Note that all what I said here has now been verified and proven so I ask Samface or anybody else to not try to say that's wrong because that's not.
Regards
--
Bertrand PRESLES <president@afua.asso.fr>
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 493 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 28-Apr-2002 09:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 487 (Bandaren):
Please don't read it.
I think maybe I should start a correspondence course about EU intellectual property law. I could make big bucks, it seems.
The interest seems staggering.
Just for the record: running UAE on an Amiga is not illegal, running it on a PC, Mac or non-Amiga licensed or branded hardware is because you are required to make a copy of the Kickstart.
Even if you own a legal Kickstart, this is not allowed because it doesn't come under any of the exceptions to the "copying is not allowed" rule.
As UAE basically incites you to break the law, the product itself is illegal.
Please don't intermingle US and EU law, citing US case-law is not always helpful to determine the scope of EU law and vice versa.
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 494 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Frodon on 28-Apr-2002 09:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 490 (Samface):
Dear Samface,
You said:
"What you're talking about is what is planned for future versions of MorphOS which isn't relevant to this topic. Let's focus on what is released and available to the public today, ok?"
You show here how misinformed you are!!! MorphOS A/Box is ALREADY in the current available version an AmigaOS APIs compatible layer! It has been thinked and developped in this way FROM THE BEGINNING!! And it already use NATIVE rewritten AmigaOS compatibel APIs!!! Actually it has just the essential AmigaOS APIs rewritten to allow to run current Amiga softwares including Workbench and other high level parts of AmigaOS directly graceful the already implemented rewritten APIs. No emulation is needed and used in the current version except for the 68k emulation.
Regards
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 495 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Apr-2002 10:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 490 (Samface):
> What you're talking about is what is planned for future versions of MorphOS
> which isn't relevant to this topic. Let's focus on what is released and
> available to the public today, ok?
And once again...
MOS0.4 IS ANYTHING BUT CURRENT!!!!!!!!!! IT'S A VERY OLD, SLOW, PRETTY UNSTABLE
BETA (and it's bppc support is ALPHA).
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 496 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 10:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 493 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"Just for the record: running UAE on an Amiga is not illegal, running it on a PC, Mac or non-Amiga licensed or branded hardware is because you are required to make a copy of the Kickstart."
Well, just to nitpick, UAE running on LinuxAPUS doesn't use the onboard ROM, instead you would have to use a copy of a ROM-file, which is illegal, right?
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 497 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 10:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 495 (Anonymous):
Are you denying the fact that it is the newest version available to the public? Vaporware cannot be used as evidence, my dear friend...
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 498 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 28-Apr-2002 10:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 495 (Anonymous):
>Let's focus on what is released and
> available to the public today, ok?
i wouldn't say it's avaible to the public. a half an hour timeout development version that runs on ancient commodore hw..
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 499 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 28-Apr-2002 10:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 498 (cheesegrate):
Limitations are not evidence of beeing unavailable. NEXT!
AFUA visited Thendic-France : Comment 500 of 629ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 28-Apr-2002 10:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 496 (Samface):
No, it accesses the MOTHER FUCKING CHIP ON YOUR *FUCKING* AMIGA MOTHERBOARD!!!!
AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!
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