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[News] AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!!ANN.lu
Posted on 28-Apr-2002 07:07 GMT by Szutoman43 comments
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Thought the AD516 Sound Card was useless, NOT!!! Chris Brenner has written a Driver and reverse engineered it, so now all Amiga users can use it with AHI. Th Sunrize's AD516 has been one of the most interesting ZII audio boards. Unfortunately, until now, there weren't any drivers of any kind for this card, leaving owners in need for realtime software with the only option to use Studio16, the application developed for this hardware by Sunrize and bundled with the product. Lack of detailed documetation, and the fact that Sunrize left the market, prevented from taking advantage from more modern non-linear editing software, developed years after Studio16. Until now. Chris Brenner just relesed his new excellent AHI driver, avalable on aminet, that now allows AHI-compatible applications to access the AD516 A/D D/A converters (for SMPTE support, Studio16 is still the right tool). Several applications have been already tested and work fine. Early reports about ProStationAudio and this new development say that the driver exhibits low-latency, extremely important to allow using mixing automation and the 30+ realtime DSP effects for ProStationAudio. More info soon, as they arrive. To donwload the driver, search for "AD516" on aminet. Info about the developer are into the driver archive, don't forget to send him feedback.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 1 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Apr-2002 09:30 GMT
comment on real-time everthing on the Amiga is realtime .pc or mac or anythig with that bus archtiecture isnt.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 2 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Apr-2002 10:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Yay! It's Sean the clueless again!
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 3 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Apr-2002 10:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
wanna go into technical details how the PCI bus-architecture differs from zorro so it isnt realtime? cause I sure dont understans what the hell you are talking about. I consider my soundblaster pci 128 in my A1200 mediator as much realtime as the AGA chipset in the very same computer and as much realtime as the soundblaster audigy in my pc.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 4 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 28-Apr-2002 11:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
Well, I think Shawn the bloody stupid bus arch troll in fact misunderstood the usage of the word realtime here. In this case it is only a matter of stuffing your data from the application to the card and getting results back immediatly, as compared to setting up everything and doing a sound "render" using the slower cpu. But PCI could have been better for real-time systems. I haven't analyzed zorro and real-time, but I actually don't think it performs any better. The thing about busses and how they perform in real-time systems is all about whether the bus and the arbitration algoritm is deterministic, so you can set up a set of applications beforehand that you _know_ will run without hickups. Any interrupt is by definition stochastic, not deterministic, so any systems with external components that can give interrupts and behave strangely with respect to bus arbitration (is it my turn to speak now? is it? now then? how long will it be then? etc) will mess up determinism. But I don't see how zorro can be any better than pci on this. Brute force actually _does_ help a bit ;)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 5 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 28-Apr-2002 12:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
A real-time response is only interesting when it is a response to an
interrupt.
My understanding is that a real-time system guarantees a response to
an interrupt within a given time. This isn't necessarily a short time.
In an industrial system a response within, say, 10 seconds may be
quite enough if you are controlling a pump that is filling a big tank.
For audio work you want a very fast response to an interrupt, and you
need to be certain that there is never an IRQ conflict that can block
the response.
It seems that on PCs, not all the interrupts are shared, so some
driver authors write in the hope that their sound card (or whatever)
will get an interrupt line to itself. This has caused problems on
Amithlon that you never see on an Amiga. So far as I understand, all
the interrupts share one IRQ on an Amiga, using a control chip, so
driver authors are forced to do things properly.
There is nothing in principle to stop good drivers being written for
PCI. The Soundblaster drivers seem to be particularly badly written in
practice.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 6 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 28-Apr-2002 13:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Don Cox):
Ah, How is your "must oppose Ole-Egil every time"-religion coming along?
I never mentioned real-time "_resonse_ at all ;)
And I do study Real time programming and systems, among other things. But as we all know I am an idiot and you are god :)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 7 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by szutoman on 28-Apr-2002 14:57 GMT
So., does this mean you all are excited about having a driver to use your AD516 sound cards?
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 8 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 28-Apr-2002 15:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Don Cox):
Yes, "real time" only means guaranteed answering times.
This means that you that when you trigger for instance an interrupt, you will get reaction from the system with a specified timeframe.
With QNX this is no more than 50 ms for instance.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 9 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by AUGOP- AMIGA USERS GROUP OF PENSACOLA on 28-Apr-2002 16:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
what an ass if shawn is so stupid then why is it that you, the fool ,is posting name calling here. There is only on real-time not many . If you think shawn is a troll for pointing out the so obvious bad archtiecture of the north and and southbridge technology then you more illogical and even foolisher then i thought . Its people like you that dont deserve the life you have. Im not shawn but another one of his supporters that has the balls and gumption to tell the truth and not kiss somebody's ass . Its proves how wrong you are when you think thats defines real-time- there is only a one mumero uno real-time, youcant have wait states as with pcs to have real-time. Get over your troll calling if it wasnt for shawn you wouldnt know what north and southbridge technology is. Im sure you still dont get the idea for if you did you wouldnt call him stupid but rather smart as I and many others have. So just give it a rest, this lame ass name calling. Its just shows how immature and fooish you are .
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 10 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by AUGOP on 28-Apr-2002 16:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Don Cox):
correct,well the wait states are what henders anything with the same archtiecture as the pc or mac, so in theory Amiga is the only real-time system , but in all reality we humans are the only real-time system around.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 11 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by BASIC BSD on 28-Apr-2002 16:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
yeah you are you studying real-time as defined by microsoft /intel or you wouldnt disagree. Don is right another one showing some gumption. There might be hope yet.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 12 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by basicbsd on 28-Apr-2002 16:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
thanks ben.
still we cant have true real-time unless its a Human brain %^)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 13 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 28-Apr-2002 17:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (szutoman):
It means I can unplug a Prelude and plug in an AD516. There won't be
much difference, but the sound quality is the best available on the
Amiga, and the Studio16 software is excellent.
OTOH I wouldn't rush out to buy an AD516 at a high price, as there is
no chance of getting one serviced, and we really should be moving
toward 24/96 PCI cards like the Echo Gina or Terratec's new model.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 14 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 28-Apr-2002 17:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (AUGOP- AMIGA USERS GROUP OF PENSACOLA):
Shawn (and the rest of the crowd in that vastly overpopulated, so called head of yours), we do can tell when you switch to another computer using another IP so just drop it, you troll(s).
Hmm...do you guys think Shawn is legal in any jurisdiction? :-D
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 15 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 28-Apr-2002 17:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (BASIC BSD):
...Shawn dwarf number three (the bugger doesn't bother to switch computers anymore)...
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 16 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 28-Apr-2002 17:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (BASIC BSD):
...four...
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 17 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 28-Apr-2002 17:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (basicbsd):
...and five. I vote for some "[ABUSE]" moderation here. :-)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 18 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 28-Apr-2002 21:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (BASIC BSD):
This might come as a shock to you, but Microsoft has never had a say in anything "real time". If you want to run real time systems around windows NT, you need to run an extension like RTX, and that's not a Microsoft product at all. I have studied real time implementations as done in RTX, RTLinux, vxWorks, QNX and several others (the programming language ADA, for instance). Real time does not mean interrupt response. A real time system can just as well be polling instead of interrupt driven. It all depends on what you are doing with it. The funny thing is, though I never disagreed with Don, but he disagrees with me every time ;)
I'm about to take it personally..
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 19 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Apr-2002 21:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
In fact for most genuine hard realtime applications a polling solution is excellent, you can analyse that thing back and forth, pin down the behaviour and be absolutely confident that it will be on time every time.
The reasons for choosing complex interrupt schemes over polling are mostly economic. A processor constantly watching an I/O port is too tied up to do useful work. We can use smarter software to free it up except when it is really needed, so the argument goes...
Shawn has really outdone himself in this thread, talking to himself and filling nearly half the thread with gibberish. Perhaps if someone finds out his identity they can alert mental care workers in his area and save him before he hurts himself or others.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 20 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by DruggedBunny on 29-Apr-2002 01:12 GMT
> Its people like you that dont deserve the life you have
Sweet Jesus, even if they were wrong about bus architectures, this just goes to show how brain-damaged you truly are. Wishing somebody death because they disagree with you over a computer bus architecture?! Moron.
Perhaps you begrudge them their lives because you so obviously don't have one?
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 21 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Jørn Rune Jakobsen on 29-Apr-2002 04:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Don Cox):
I do not agree that AD516 has the best sound quality on Amiga.
Compared to "newer" cards, like Prelude and Repulse, it actually sucks.
Especially at recording.
Its strength lies in the high quality Studio 16 software, designed for
video sound, and low cpu requirements.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 22 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 29-Apr-2002 04:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Jørn Rune Jakobsen):
Now you done it. Don is gonna really bark up your tree for daring to disagree with him on an audio related matter ;)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 23 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Jørn Rune Jakobsen on 29-Apr-2002 07:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
I believe Don is a reasonable guy.
I have AD516,Prelude w.Arpeggiator and Repulse board in my
A4K, my statements are based on my experience with them.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 24 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Phill on 29-Apr-2002 09:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (AUGOP- AMIGA USERS GROUP OF PENSACOLA):
The sad point is that pci is so much like zorro3 ( to the point of patent infringement ) that arguing over which one is realtime is ridiculous.
Bringing implementation details like north and southbridge chips the argument is even more absurd, otherwise we'll have to put up with arguments about whether an althon with pci is better than an a500+512kb ram expansion.
Interrupts aren't really handled much different on the amiga and pc. If everything is designed correctly then there are no problems with sharing interrupts. Don't think for one second that all Amiga zorro cards were designed correctly or they wouldn't have had problems with zorro2 cards that don't work on some zorro3 backplanes etc. The problem with PCI is that it is so well supported & there is so much choice, a problem that the Amiga hasn't had in a very long time.
Phill
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 25 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 29-Apr-2002 09:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Phill):
Agreed. Now if we could just send Shawn somewhere and get his head checked, we might actually get on with our lives...
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 26 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by treke on 29-Apr-2002 09:42 GMT
Hello ppl, read the article in Dr Dobbs journal from december 2001 arcticle "How real time is Windows CE" and you will find that Windows CE 3.0 is rather realtime. ( In my opinion not so real time but these results were given from company who produces independent OS rael-time tests ) But QNX has better results (faster times).
So (as I allready said here on ANN ) real-time OS is:
1. Reliable ( so don't know how WinCE 3.0 fits into this scheme ) ( there are measurable parameters observable within this condition )
2. PredictabilityHas a defined maximal response time for operations AND the AVERAGE response time MATCHES (or tries to do that) the MAXIMAL response time ( this is valid not just for the interrupt invocation responses but thread handling, thread creation times, synchronisation mechanisms, priority inversions recovery -i'would like to see this feature in OS 4.x,Ben- , etc.. )
So I (just) think i would require another rewrite of the exec :)
then rewrite the device library then the devices ... here comes the audio :) not so sure, maybe Im wrong, ( didn't touch my amiga for a long time nor any RKMs nor docs )
re
Treke
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 27 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 29-Apr-2002 09:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (treke):
OS 4.0 uses a quantum of 50 ms and we probably will reduce than even further.
QNX uses 50 ms BTW.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 28 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 29-Apr-2002 10:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
To clarify: That's the round-robin timeslice you are talking about? QNX can also work in a strictly fifo-within-same-priority-level mode, which is rather good for real time because it adds far less overhead. Is that possible in a not so distant future? And then There could be a third option for enabling a fairness algoritm like winNT if you _don't_ want real time at all :)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 29 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 29-Apr-2002 10:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Would be nice if something like Executive found it's way into AOS4.x :)
Some links if you haven't heard of it before:
http://www.aminet.net/util/misc/Executive.readme
http://www.megabaud.fi/~petrin/Executive.html
/Björn
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 30 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 29-Apr-2002 11:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
Qnx have three types of shedulig to choose from :
FIFO
Round-robin
Adaptive
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 31 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 29-Apr-2002 11:06 GMT
Argh, why can't CK add the ability to edit posts...
Yeah, I know, there are better thing to do. I just wanted to put some frustration in the air ;)
/Björn, feels better now
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 32 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 29-Apr-2002 12:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
"A real time system can just as well be polling instead of
interrupt driven. It all depends on what you are doing with it. The funny thing is, though I never
disagreed with Don, but he disagrees with me every time ;)
I'm about to take it personally.."
It could be polling, but I would expect interrupts to be much more
common, especially in industrial control systems.
There's absolutely nothing personal if I comment on something you've
said. I'm commenting on the statement, not the person making it, who
is so far as I'm concerned just a name I see quite often but know
nothing about.
And I don't claim to be always right. So you can comment back. ;-)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 33 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 29-Apr-2002 12:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Jørn Rune Jakobsen):
"I do not agree that AD516 has the best sound quality on Amiga.
Compared to "newer" cards, like Prelude and Repulse, it actually sucks.
Especially at recording. "
Well, "sucks" may be rather extreme. Lots of users think it is
particularly good.
I can't do any serious tests until I get my electrostatic speakers
connected again, which won't be for a week or two. Then I could try
making a CD with recordings on AD516 and Prelude. My guess is that
there won't be much difference. I don't have a Repulse here now.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 34 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 29-Apr-2002 13:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
Yes, the prioritised round-robin scheduler quantum.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 35 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 29-Apr-2002 13:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
"OS 4.0 uses a quantum of 50 ms and we probably will reduce than even further.
QNX uses 50 ms BTW."
It would be excellent if you could improve the response of Exec even
further. This is especially important for audio.
Now if we could only have improved Exec _and_ a fast processor, we
could have a killer audio computer. It would need drivers for 24-bit
sound cards, of course.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 36 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 29-Apr-2002 14:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Don Cox):
You can be assured that OS 4 will be extremely responsive.
A time-slice of 45 ms is really very responsive.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 37 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 29-Apr-2002 14:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hmm.. the timeslice alone isnt any proof of responsiveness..
but anyway, keep on rockin :)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 38 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 29-Apr-2002 16:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Leif):
Well, short timeslice, selectable between round-robin and fifo (for a start, maybe fairness (is that what adaptive mode in qnx is? Haven't played with qnx for a while) if that is something one wants), low latency interrupt handlers are basically what you can improve without doing _major_ developing ;)
We want real time filesystems and real time databases as well, but since noone else really has them yet... :)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 39 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Stefan Burström on 29-Apr-2002 18:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
The timeslice in a system does not really affect the responsivenes.
If an event is triggered, eg a mouse down, it is generated by a high priority
process. When the message is sent, there is an imediate context switch
to the handling process. You will never notice the timeslize in such a
situation. (And this is usually how you fell the 'responsivenes' of a system)
regards,
Stefan
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 40 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Apr-2002 09:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Stefan Burström):
How not to do it:
on this PC, running Win 2000, when I click on the right mouse button in Internet Explorer, it takes 3 seconds for the menu to pop up. On an Amiga browser it is (or seems) instantaneous.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 41 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 30-Apr-2002 12:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
Adaptive mode is similar to what Executive does on Amiga.
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 42 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 30-Apr-2002 19:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Leif):
Well, since I have never run executive, that wasn't all too helpful ;)
I can look it up, but you could have just told me :)
AD516 AHI Driver For Amiga, YES ITS TRUE!! : Comment 43 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 30-Apr-2002 20:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
Well, basically it fiddles with the priorities
in realtime to make performance better..
Its like roundrobin + above.
I didnt use Executive much except tested it shortly,
the lesser patches the better :)
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