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[News] Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANNANN.lu
Posted on 20-May-2002 22:17 GMT by SlimJim186 comments
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For those of you lacking the stamina to wade through the 300+ posts-thread on ANN (named "the next ppc amiga" ), Fleecy Moss, CTO at Amiga Inc, made a short surprise visit to dispell some rumours about the BPlan-AInc situation (apparently after getting the thumbs up from AInc:s legal advisors). Snippets from various posts:

[...] "For AmigaOS4, Amiga said that it will welcome ANY and ALL hardware companies which develop hardware. We have spent many hours of email with representatives of bPlan and in all of them, our line has been consistent.

1.We will be very happy to provide bPlan with an OS4 licence, and to have OS4 running on the Pegasos

2.Amiga compatability within MorphOS comes from illegally obtained source tapes and we will use all legal process to prevent it from entering the market.

It is not Amiga Inc preventing AmigaOS4 from running on the Pegasos. As far as Amiga Inc is concerned, we consider the two issues mentioned above as being completely separate."

[...]

"Most of you (with an interest in the truth anyway) have already asked the obvious question. What would Amiga Inc gain from NOT allowing OS4 to run on the Pegasos. Answer - absolutely nothing.

The licence terms for OS4 are the same for bPlan as for Eyetech and anyone else who wishes to sell an Amiga product that runs OS4. It is a typical OEM licence, and presents a level playing field, for producers, for distributors and for customers. You will find NO exclusive deals done for any product that carries the Amiga seal of approval, and no favouritism played to any company or individual.

Any company that says that they approached us and we rejected them is lying. They may not have liked certain elements of the OEM deal, but it is the same deal as everyone else is offered."

[...]

"Anything to do with MorphOS and its 'amiga compatability' will be decided, so it seems, in the courts."

Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 1 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 20:30 GMT
Seems the mos amiga compat. days are numbered if amiga can prove their claim which i for one hope they do , <RAGE!> I wanna see those bastards sink with their bastard blizzard ppc creation ! and hopefully amiga will take all their money , if they have any which i doubt highly </RAGE!>
Glad i got that out ;) , wonder if mos is gonna have its own arexx thing ... shit needs the workbench first hehe
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 2 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 20-May-2002 20:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (cOrpse):
Grats deadboy, this should be a nice flaming thread.. :)
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 3 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by anon on 20-May-2002 20:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (cOrpse):
The time of Amiga Incs broken promises will end up soon. Get prepared!
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 4 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 20:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Leif):
Well its about time we had some Anti-Kronos' around here , best for the amiga os peeps to get into the flame first before some pro-mos pro-x86 non mos non ppc user comes in and says " oh amiga are such arse's" and starts using terms like cos4 and DEad.
nice to see amiga sticking up for the os they almost disowned too ;).
/me was joking , like always !!
My amiga's cracking for amiga.org ! is yours ? join now mac bitches are in front of us grrr !!
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 5 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 20-May-2002 20:41 GMT
Let's not make this a pro-MOS/anti-MOS - thread. The legal doubts we all already knew
about (and have discussed to death).
Fleecy's main point was to cement that Ainc would really like AOS4 to run on Pegasos
and haven't offered any special deal to Eyetech out of spite or due to any politics
towards BPlan.
.
SlimJim
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 6 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by deviant on 20-May-2002 20:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Leif):
"Grats deadboy" - Whats with all this dead boy crap ? whats to say i'm not a girl ;)
BTw . corpse is the nick is use on the pc , Deviant on the amiga and *** for naughty stuff and freaking people out :D
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 7 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Troels E on 20-May-2002 20:47 GMT
Theres no point in this thread!
It will just be another endless flamewar, with all the usual bitching and fighting.
Lets see if things go to court or if Morphos/Bplan and Amiga can meet eachother on the halfway.
Only time will tell
-- Brondby IF, Champions once again, Michael Laudrup new Coach, what a week:) --
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 8 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 20:49 GMT
Once again the pro-Amiga/PPC lobby is extending the PPC vs PPC arguments. It is in their interest that people are distracted by arguing between two PPC OSes. Indeed, many pro-PPC posters in recent threads have said they would consider MOS should OS4 fail. The pro-Amiga/PPC lobby wins either way.
We should be examining why the pro-Amiga/PPC lobby is so keen to keep discussion focused on the PPC, and away from the real issue which is justifying their "arguments" for using non-mainstream hardware. The pro-Amiga/PPC lobby can not, or will not address this issue.
AmigaOS's userbase needs to grow to become successful once again. Shutting out AmigaOS to the wider market by restricting AmigaOS/MOS to non-mainstream hardware may create enough revenue for the associated companies to survive, but it will not provide the influx of new users that AmigaOS/MOS requires to attract commercial software developers. Survival is not enough.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 9 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 20:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Troels E):
You are right , but i think maybe the amiga os peeps need to have a nice go at the mos peeps for once , that hasn't happened for a long time and is the reason why we fly off the handle.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 10 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 20:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (smithy):
"using non-mainstream hardware"
What would you consider mainstream hardware ? i reckon the poot'in inside modern kitchen stuff , tv's etc is more mainstream then x86 , doesn't mean i want my choice of os on it.
And maybe we don't want to be mainstream , many linux people are afraid of this spoiling the os .. Leave de for them and the interested of us and rape the benefits.
BTw. I would consider amigaONE , peagsos and macs mainstream hardware in that they use *standard* sorta stuff and not the custom chips of yesteryear , does the cpu choice really change that ?
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 11 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 20-May-2002 20:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Troels E):
Actually, the fact that Fleecy makes an 'official' comment is a news item
in its own right. Whereas the MOS situation is hardly news, I thought the
_official_Amiga_Inc_position_concerning_the_Pegasos_ was something worth
being brought to the front pages... ;-)
.
SlimJim
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 12 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 20-May-2002 21:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (deviant):
Okey, how about Waste ?
Can I call you "Waste" ?
It has a nice ring to it.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 13 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 21:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Leif):
Go for it , if thats what you need make you happy.
funny that the mos people love to shout fire and as soon as the tables turned they don't like it , I suggest you all get ppc cards and see what the bandwagon your on really is.
/me thinks its also really funny that certain people round here have taken the mos coloured pill and never experienced it ;)
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 14 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 20-May-2002 21:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (smithy):
You are really getting fond of that conspiracy theory you speculated about in the
other thread aren't you? ;-)
It was quite funny there. Just don't let the good laugh you once drew
from the audience rise to your head... The same joke usually won't work twice!
:-)
.
SlimJim
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 15 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 21:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (cOrpse):
>What would you consider mainstream hardware ? i reckon the poot'in inside
>modern kitchen stuff , tv's etc is more mainstream then x86 , doesn't mean i
>want my choice of os on it.
A standard tactic. Trying to divert attention from the real issue. However, if you want to be pedantic, I'd define mainstream hardware as hardware that I can run software on that I can buy on the high street. Read: PC hardware. I deliberately call it "mainstream hardware" because it's irrelevant that it is PC hardware. It just so happens that PC hardware is accessible to the majority of computing enthusiasts. If it was the case that PPC hardware was mainstream, then I'd argue for that. I'm not bothered about the PC, I'm bothered about seeing new users and new software for AmigaOS.
>And maybe we don't want to be mainstream, many linux people are afraid of this
>spoiling the os .. Leave de for them and the interested of us and rape the
>benefits.
Yes, the elite wants to keep things the way they are. Close out new users and ideas that using mainstream hardware would bring. And if it closes out new software and growth? Well, this is another issue the elite doesn't want to address.
>BTw. I would consider amigaONE , peagsos and macs mainstream hardware in that
>they use *standard* sorta stuff and not the custom chips of yesteryear , does
>the cpu choice really change that ?
Is it mainstream? The acid test:
1. Do >90% of the computing owning public own one? (PC=yes, Mac=no, A1=No).
2. Can I buy software on the high street for it? (PC=yes, Mac=limited, A1=No).
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 16 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 21:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (SlimJim):
cOrpse uses the same arguments over and over again. And they weren't even funny in the same place. Perhaps I was being subtly ironic to our elitist friends? ;)
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 17 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 21:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (smithy):
same=first
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 18 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 21:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (smithy):
Ok so hilter sez , You must do as i say i'm mainstream , bah!
Its more like , i bought this pc from pc world , i want to look cool to all my buds and run that os they thought was dead and then giggle over it and push the geeky glasses back up your face.
And who needs 90% of the on the shelf software ? 90% of the on shelf software is windows , office and the lastest fps shooter , the latter being the only one that appeals to me. Also we do have aminet , if you added up all the free software / single platform related stuff from around the internet i bet you aminet would make up a large percentage of it.
And eyetech could have gone way off the mainstream and made it have to take special memory / expansion cards ... count your blessings.
Also when we getta GTK ( among other *mainstream* libs ) port we'll be able to compile and use alot of unix-like os apps too :)
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 19 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 20-May-2002 21:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (smithy):
Well, as there are no official x86- AmigaOS in the works and due to economics/
preference/agenda -call it what you will - there won't to be a x86-AOS
anytime soon. You and I might think whatever we will - I certainly don't have
the money to fund such a project, and I guess you don't either. The companies that
could invest to do it aren't doing it. So bitching about it over and over is
just a waste of bandwidth for now. Once the PPC-versions are out, there might
(eventually) be enough money and userbase to consider expanding the OS to other
platforms (using AA or not). Meanwhile I will enjoy the new Amiga that will be available.
And for now that is some sort of PPC-solution. Just the facts of life.
.
SlimJim
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 20 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 20-May-2002 21:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (cOrpse):
I wish I could ban idiots from ANN ...
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 21 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 20-May-2002 21:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (smithy):
Hi Smithy
I see some of your points. A lot of my friends would like to give AmigaOS a try but won't buy an AmigaOne just because they would like to see if they like OS4.
They compare it to a Linux distro, which the can try on their PC. Problem is that they (most of them) end up using only winblows. And if they had to pay ..? 80Euro for AmigaOS4 lots of them wouldn't have done it.
The reason they won't pay is that there's not enough software available, no decent browser, no spreadsheet, wordprocessing etc. I say make that X86 OS, when we have enough decent software, not before. I believe we will have enough decent software around within 2 years.
Theres no reason to try and compete on X86 if you instead could build a healthy market on PPC where the few (lets say 35000?) custumors are happy and actually buys products. I am sure we will see a much healthier market in a year from now, but there will be no X86 AmigaOS yet (if ever).
-- Brondby IF, Champions Once Again, Michael Laudrup new coach, what a week:) --
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 22 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 20-May-2002 21:28 GMT
this post #21 was from me, forgot to write my name.
Brøndby IF...heading for Champions League:)
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 23 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by |Lando| on 20-May-2002 21:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (smithy):
I don't think you want an Amiga smithy... if your only criteria for choosing a computer system is whether or not it's mainstream and whether 90% of the other sheep use it, stick with your PC, because Amigas arent going to be "mainstream" again for a long time (if ever).
Anyway, the A1 motherboard is the ONLY thing that can be classed as "non-mainstream". Most of us dont mind having to buy our motherboard from an Amiga retailer via mail order. Most people I know buy their PC motherboards that way too. And then we can buy the rest from the high street, if we are that way inclined.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 24 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 21:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Christophe Decanini):
Go for it , its about time non-amiga users got their own hang out
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 25 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 21:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (cOrpse):
>Ok so hilter sez , You must do as i say i'm mainstream , bah!
I didn't ask you to do anything. I am putting the case as to why AmigaOS on hardware that is available, cheap and powerful (not to mention already owned by many millions of people) would be a Good Thing.
>Its more like , i bought this pc from pc world , i want to look cool to all my
>buds and run that os they thought was dead and then giggle over it and push
>the geeky glasses back up your face.
And this is your argument for running AmigaOS on non-mainstream hardware? If not, then what are you talking about?
>And who needs 90% of the on the shelf software ? 90% of the on shelf software
>is windows , office and the lastest fps shooter ,
The people that own PCs need off-the-shelf software. That's why they own PCs. It's because they need to write their essays for university and work, they might want to use modern internet software, and they want to play the latest games. With AmigaOS restricted to hardware that this type of thing isn't currently available for, who is going to switch? Or, indeed, who is going to have both machines? Just for an OS which has no modern apps?
>Also when we getta GTK ( among other *mainstream* libs ) port we'll be able to
>compile and use alot of unix-like os apps too :)
Ahhh yes, and who is going to port these mainstream libraries? Why haven't they done it over the past 10 years? And what makes you think they'd do it for MOS/OS4/PPC?
With AmigaOS/PC, there'd be a massive number of new potential users, not to mention new developers interested in an modern, viable alternative to Windows and Unix that is already accessible to most people. Perhaps OpenBeOS or AtheOS will seize this market?
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 26 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 20-May-2002 21:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (cOrpse):
Good luck to you, smithy ;)
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 27 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 20-May-2002 21:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (cOrpse):
Dunno if you got that, but this was targeted at you.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 28 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 21:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (smithy):
*yawn* so your saying , i want to run amigaOs but don't want to pay for it and if its a nice pc os it'll be arounds on pubs for everyone to get easily , i don't think your the people amiga want.
How about an aos4 enabled ( with protection rom ) x86 , bet u'd hate that too
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 29 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 21:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Anonymous):
>The reason they won't pay is that there's not enough software available, no
>decent browser, no spreadsheet, wordprocessing etc. I say make that X86 OS,
>when we have enough decent software, not before. I believe we will have enough
>decent software around within 2 years.
Without the massive growth that the PC can provide, who is going to write this software? There has been very little new software in the past 5 years, so why should we think any different over the next 2 with OS4 not aimed at hardware that people already own.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 30 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by |Lando| on 20-May-2002 21:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (smithy):
OK, just say for a moment that PC's get their own AmigaOS.
99.9% of PC users will ignore it, just as they did BeOS.
The other 0.1% install it as dual boot with Windows.
But, they dont buy any apps or games for it or course, since they already have the Windows versions which came out a year earlier.
They leave AmigaOS on their hard drive for a few months, occasionally booting into it to mess around. Eventually then need the hard drive space back to install a new game so they delete the AmigaOS partition to make way for Quake 4.
Thats the "future" of AmigaOS on x86.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 31 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 21:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (smithy):
Yeah that growth is helping beOS , one person left IIRC , nice ;)
If you want to stand a chance on the pc , you have to be free ....
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 32 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 21:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (|Lando|):
>if your only criteria for choosing a computer system is whether or not it's
>mainstream and whether 90% of the other sheep use it
That's not my criteria, and I don't recall saying it was. What I did say, however, that a verison of AmigaOS on hardware that more people actually own right now, is likely to result in a greater userbase. A greater userbase means that there is likely to be more developers. More developers, more software, etc....
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 33 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 20-May-2002 21:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (|Lando|):
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this entire discussion (about AOS-x86) WILDLY
off-topic...?
.
SlimJim
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 34 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 21:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (darklite):
>Good luck to you, smithy ;)
Not seen you on AmigaNet for a while, whatcha up to? :)
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 35 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 21:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Troels Ersking):
>Brøndby IF...heading for Champions League:)
You'll be meeting Newcastle United then :)
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 36 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 21:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (cOrpse):
>*yawn* so your saying , i want to run amigaOs but don't want to pay for it and
>if its a nice pc os it'll be arounds on pubs for everyone to get easily , i
>don't think your the people amiga want.
No, I'm saying that I want AmigaOS to be a success; to get a big increase in the userbase, developers and amount of software. Where did I suggest that AmigaOS would be free? Why are you, once again, changing the subject?
>How about an aos4 enabled ( with protection rom ) x86 , bet u'd hate that too
Perhaps not. If the protection was easy to fit (say - plug into the serial port or USB maybe?) then I wouldn't have anything against it. Provided that it didn't push up the cost of the OS by several hundred pounds and provided it didn't restrict other OSes in use on the PC.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 37 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 22:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (SlimJim):
No i think its more about the real issue , Whos who :
1 . we have the quiet amiga users ...
2 . We have the outraged amiga users , explain later
3 . Pc using , amiga never using mos fans
4 . some open minded users (rare).
Problem is the pc users want to walk in a be part of the fun , but their elite side os opinion that stems from linux IRC channels is changed into battling for morphos without ever using it. The quiet amiga users just sit back and only read the news titles. the open minded people ( 1 or 2 ) will happily talk about any news nicely.
Now to the outraged aka me ... fed up of amiga news being dogged by pricks ; want revenge . Fed up of arseholes supporting companies that ripped us off ; want revenge. Fed up of stupid terms like cos and DEad ; want revenge. Fed up mostly because the *amiga* is being told what to do by little linux hoes that use XP 99% of the time and paid for it !! Fed up of hyperion etc getting insulted by small minded pc users that want something different and have decided on amigaOS .. I want to see the darkside come here a talk , fact is they haven't got the guts and would rather talk about linux to the people that like to think their in charge.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 38 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 22:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (|Lando|):
>OK, just say for a moment that PC's get their own AmigaOS.
>99.9% of PC users will ignore it, just as they did BeOS.
>The other 0.1% install it as dual boot with Windows.
Actually, the BeOS userbase grew massively when BeOS was ported to the PC.
>But, they dont buy any apps or games for it or course, since they already have
>the Windows versions which came out a year earlier.
And what apps are you planning to buy for OS4?
On an AmigaOS/PC system, there would be few apps to start with, however, once the userbase grew more would be developed. Just as is the case with Linux.
>They leave AmigaOS on their hard drive for a few months, occasionally booting
>into it to mess around. Eventually then need the hard drive space back to
>install a new game so they delete the AmigaOS partition to make way for Quake
>4.
That didn't happen with Linux, or even BeOS, when it was around.
>Thats the "future" of AmigaOS on x86.
There is a massive market of computing enthusiasts that use x86 machines. You only have to read message boards like Slashdot and osOpinion.com to see that many users are looking for an alternative to Windows and Linux. Systems like OpenBeOS and Atheos are looking to fill this void. There is a massive potential here for AmigaOS.
The computing enthusiasts market is there for the taking. They don't expect apps overnight, indeed many of them are developers looking for a new system to develop on. There is a tremendous opportunity here.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 39 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Bob Githam on 20-May-2002 22:09 GMT
Can anyone please explain to me what's the purpose of this so-called discussion?
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 40 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 22:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (smithy):
"And what apps are you planning to buy for OS4? "
The few of us here that have real amigas with ppc cards already have various ppc apps we paid good money for , and i don't any of us would ditch them just to let some gimps play with amigaOs on x86 , use uae and get outta out hair , we don't want you.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 41 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 20-May-2002 22:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Bob Githam):
I thought i'd beat kronos at anti-life comment for once , you know us amigaOS supporters we just want to have fun .. oh and we have ppc cards hahaha!
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 42 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 20-May-2002 22:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (cOrpse):
>The few of us here that have real amigas with ppc cards already have various
>ppc apps we paid good money for
So you are planning on using existing apps, and not buying any new ones? I'm sure potential software developers would love to hear that. Another reason not to develop for non-mainstream hardware.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 43 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Bob Githam on 20-May-2002 22:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (cOrpse):
Please, this is no playground. If you want to flame each other there must be some better place for that than a news site.
This is no serious discussion.
It is kindergarten.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 44 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 20-May-2002 22:37 GMT
@smithy
The original idea behind OS4 was to remove the hardware independance and release an interim operating sytem for the current userbase while paving the road for complete hardware independance into "mainstream" systems. You have to admit this can't be done overnight. Look at the bigger picture for a second and you'll see the direction Amiga Inc is taking. While I personally don't like all-things X86 it will be a requirement later down the road.
What would happen if you flooded the userbase with an onslaught of new users? Personally I think many of them would become fed up and go back to their old ways in the WinMac world. The only group that could see sticking it out for the hard road would be the Linux factor simply due to interest in the alternative OS alone. You have to build the interest in the potential new users and wet their appetite to a point where they can't stay away, in Amiga's (reffering to the OS) current state this is not possible.
I personally agree with your points you've brought up, it's just now is not the time.
"This is the worlds largest game of chess... we are merely playing with pawns until it's time to castle and release the knights." - me
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 45 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Targhan on 20-May-2002 23:01 GMT
While I'm not fond of c0rpse's brashness, I will have to side with
him on this arguement. AmigaOS on X86 will kill the Amiga faster than
it did BeOS. The only thing keeping Linux alive on the PC is just how
cheap it is (get the os for free, buy a boxed deal and get StarOffice
and other junk for $20.) Don't believe me? Go ask SUN about running
an OS on the PC! There is a reason they've went back to their own
hardware, and don't compare Sun to Linux. Sun's Unix is by far the
superior OS to Linux; it always has been, always will be, amen.
Amiga and off-the-shelf hardware. I want the Amiga needs
off-the-shelf hardware guys to look about six inches up. A little
lower, there! See that flashing banner-ad? *USB* If you click on
it, you'll find a store that sells things like the Mediator and the
Prometheous--PCI baby. Now, since when are USB and PCI things not
off-the-shelf? This stuff is now, not something we are still waiting
on like AGP (which will be soon if EyeTech, Elbox, & co have anything
to say about it.) We need more folks to write drivers, the physical
ability to connect to off-the-shelf parts is there.
The software issues the Amiga faces is different. About everything on
the Amiga is behind it's counterpart on the PC by a few years.
However, the task is not an unattainable goal. The Digita and
Softwood products are solid at the core, and could be brought back to
the forefront when the time comes. Look no further than Kermit
Woodal and Nova Design to see that ImageFX and Alladin can work
wonders. The list goes on and on, and I'm posting this with
Voyager3.3.122 - now, who's screaming MorphOS and posting with IE.
Don't give up on PPC, because MOS and AOS looks like it'll be in a
court. The Amiga needs it's own hardware at the root. I say let 'em
have up to 3.9 on x86, and your PC friends can see a teaser. However,
SUN and IBM both couldn't topple Windows on x86...
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 46 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 20-May-2002 23:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (smithy):
>Actually, the BeOS userbase grew massively when BeOS was ported to the PC.
True, but the other side of this is that BeOS PPC was orphaned when the G3s came out. If new PPC computers continued to be produced for BeOS to run on, I don't think there's any question that it would have thrived there. Of course BeOS/x86 was great for a lot of users, too. The BeOS situation had so many unique quirks, though, that I don't know how useful it is as a model for anything Amiga, Inc. does.
>There is a massive market of computing enthusiasts that use x86 machines.... There is a massive potential here for AmigaOS.
Or for something. It remains to be seen what Amiga will deliver; I don't think just a PPC port of OS3.9 with some modernization is going to be that interesting to most people. Recall that when BeOS came out, it was sometimes call the "Buzzword-Enabled" OS because of its features and capabilities. Also at that time, MacOS was dead in the water and Windows was arguably much weaker, relatively speaking. The situation is now much tougher for another alternative OS, because MacOSX is a respectable operating system and because Windows (especially on consumer boxes) now runs a lot better than it did. What can Amiga bring to pull people away from these?
I think it's also a valid point that sometimes unique hardware is a plus as well as a minus. While porting to x86 would get AmigaOS in front of a whole lot of people, the vast majority of these people have no use for or interest in alternative operating systems. Amiga is going to be a geek's platform for the foreseeable future; running on unique hardware actually adds to the geek attraction in some ways. Of course this has to be *interesting* hardware. A non-Apple consumer PPC motherboard is by definition interesting, but beyond that the first generation of Amiga PPC boards have a long way to go before they can be a factor in driving the platform.
> The computing enthusiasts market is there for the taking.
So far it seems to me that Amiga, Inc. is too distracted by AmigaAnywhere to push AmigaOS and Amiga hardware enough to get that market. If they can ramp up the effort and get focussed, to the point that they can have a product as interesting in 2003 as BeOS was in 1996, then maybe there's a chance. I guess the key is what AmigaOS 5 turns out like. So far things aren't very encouraging.
To bend this back on to the topic, Fleecy's right, of course, to say they'll support any available hardware. Hopefully this will let the hardware guys get sales up to the point that they can see some profits, and hopefully it'll also enable some more-interesting hardware. The initial run (G3 600MHz) is more a proof of concept than a compelling end-user product. Time will tell what will come of the legal aspects of all of this, and what course bPlan will take regarding the software options.
-- gary_c
<aside to c0rpse: nobody needs your idiotic psuedo-cool junior high school bullsh*t. Post something worth reading or shut the f*ck up. Just IMHO :-) >
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 47 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 20-May-2002 23:56 GMT
Can the entire lot of you just grow up and act like adults?
Why the f*ck are you talking about x86 AmigaOS on a topic about Amiga Inc's stance on Pegasos and AmigaOS4, and MorphOS' A\Box system?
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 48 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by ShadesOfGrey on 21-May-2002 01:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (smithy):
>>What would you consider mainstream hardware ? i reckon the poot'in inside
>>modern kitchen stuff , tv's etc is more mainstream then x86 , doesn't mean i
>>want my choice of os on it.
>
>A standard tactic. Trying to divert attention from the real issue. However, if
>you want to be pedantic, I'd define mainstream hardware as hardware that I can
>run software on that I can buy on the high street. Read: PC hardware. I
>deliberately call it "mainstream hardware" because it's irrelevant that it is >PC hardware. It just so happens that PC hardware is accessible to the majority >of computing enthusiasts. If it was the case that PPC hardware was mainstream,
>then I'd argue for that. I'm not bothered about the PC, I'm bothered about
>seeing new users and new software for AmigaOS.
Talk about pedantic and diverting from the "real issue". What is a "PC"? The fact is "PC" stands for Personal Computer. But you say it's a Wintel or Winthlon XP box. After all that is pretty much all you can get on the "high street". Is an Amiga not a "PC"? Is an Atari ST/Falcon not a "PC"? Is a Mac not a "PC"? Obviously not, they don't run Windows 3.1/NT/9x/2000/Me/XP. At least not nearly as well as those machines from the "high street".
If Amiga Inc. were to try and compete against Windows on the X86 hardware platform, they would be just like Be. Dead (yet again). Why they hell do you think Apple has been reluctant to enter the X86 world? Why does Linux still have such a small segment of the desktop market?
Wake up! Wintel and Winthlon XP boxes are not mainstream because they use X86 processors, but because they run WINDOWS (TM)!
>>And maybe we don't want to be mainstream, many linux people are afraid of
>>this spoiling the os .. Leave de for them and the interested of us and rape
>>the benefits.
>
>Yes, the elite wants to keep things the way they are. Close out new users and
>ideas that using mainstream hardware would bring. And if it closes out new
>software and growth? Well, this is another issue the elite doesn't want to
>address.
No! The "elite" (who are the elite anyway?) are trying to save the Amiga OS platform. Going head to head with M$ on the same hardware is SUICIDE! Why use the next generation Amiga OS with a handful of application when you have thousands for Windows apps? Until there is a sufficiently competitive pool of software available for porting for the next generation Amiga OS, adding X86 support will only serve to kill Amiga Inc. and to a degree the Amiga OS (there will still be AROS, UAE, and maybe even Amithlon & Amiga XL or MorphOS if Gateway chooses not to take legal action.).
>>BTw. I would consider amigaONE , peagsos and macs mainstream hardware in that
>>they use *standard* sorta stuff and not the custom chips of yesteryear , does
>>the cpu choice really change that ?
>
>Is it mainstream? The acid test:
>
>1. Do >90% of the computing owning public own one? (PC=yes, Mac=no, A1=No).
>2. Can I buy software on the high street for it? (PC=yes, Mac=limited, A1=No).
Your acid test is not entirely accurate. Here's how it should look.
1. Do >90% of the computing owning public own one?
(PC=yes, Mac=no, A1=No).
2. Do >90% of the computing owning public own a copy?
(Windows=yes, Mac OS=no, *nix=no, A1=No).
3. Presently, what would stop them from using Windows instead of Amiga OS on X86 hardware?
(Nostalgia=perhaps, Nothing=more likely)
4. Can I buy software on the high street for it?
(Windows=yes, Mac/*nix<!>=limited, Amiga OS=No).
<!> Limited to purchasing Linux/BSD distros and perhaps freeware/shareware disks.
For all the mistakes the current Amiga Inc. have made, they got one thing right. X86 IS NOT ready for the Amiga OS and the Amiga OS IS NOT ready for X86.
Have I diverted attention? I think so... Not AWAY from the core issue, but rather toward it.
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 49 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Minuous on 21-May-2002 01:23 GMT
I don't much like MorphOS but...AFAIK there is no illegality to make something which is compatible at the API level. I don't see how it's bad for Amiga, it will increase the market for AmigaOS apps won't it?
How do they know the source tapes were used in making MOS?
Does anyone have one of these tapes? Any chance they could upload it somewhere?
Fleecy Moss clarifies on ANN : Comment 50 of 186ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 21-May-2002 01:39 GMT
I was sick when I saw the first comments of the thread.
I was wondering if I could ask Christian to turn of the comments for a while.
Now I feel better as I see that some people can still debate in a civilized manner.
Even if OT, I thank these posters and I suggest that the ANN readers that think that ANN quality went down post here to improve quality and IGNORE the people that just come here to enjoy a flamewar.
When the village idiot come to speak to you do not pay attention at the nonsense: Explaining to him he is wrong and he is an idiot never help him and is never enjoyable for you.
The same goes for the one looking only for provocation. If nobody answer to the provocation everything will stay quiet.
This is an advise I should be the first to apply as like many of you I still feel as an Amigan that needs to fight to have this paltform survive.
We just need fight the right way: buying Amiga software/hardware and write a review on it, code some shareware ...
Have a good night.
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