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[News] Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled!ANN.lu
Posted on 21-May-2002 18:00 GMT by Christophe Decanini179 comments
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From MorphOS News.
The Pegasos presentation in 'neues' has been cancelled. An official statement will follow.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 101 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-May-2002 12:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (Eva):
Troll
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 102 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 22-May-2002 12:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Gabriele Greco):
Eheheh tha AmigaOs APIs are so well descibed.
It's relatively easy to create something like wine/windows but of the amigaos.
The problem is the assumpions of NON programmers that Morphsos team was forced to use stolen code to create X or Y.
It's so simply to compare wine for linux to abox under morphos. They are about the same thing. And Microsoft (not a small company ...) loose its legal action against wine creators.
But this thing sure is not important for Ben Herman and his friends :)
At this point I HOPE TO SEE a legal action, to see a day AMigaInc close defintively and leave the scene...
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 103 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 22-May-2002 12:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Anders Kjeldsen):
Ahahahh
if it will be never show something then We'll see AmigaOS4 and AmigaOne RUN seriously in 2003 ;)
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 104 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 22-May-2002 12:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 98 (mrtickle@amiga4k.ndo.co.uk):
Crap I didn't mean to put my email twice. Why isn't there an edit option on this thing?!
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 105 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Leki on 22-May-2002 12:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (Eva):
you forgot to put the caps lock key on....please read comment 83 for tips on how do post liek an idiot :)
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 106 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 22-May-2002 12:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 94 (Anonymous):
To all lazy people outhere that speak without using a brain. Please, install Linux and than Wine, or better than better Lindows.
You know it?
It's something that follows MoS philosofy.
Under Lindows, you can run direct every Windows program without windows installed. And, but what a surprise, it's perfectly legal.
Now, apply this legality to MorphOS and you will learn something new: the legal actions are only flames. AmigaInc and Hyperion have nothing for the market at the moment so they spread sheet around with the hope to stop Bplan projects.
But, based on the experience of legal actions lost by Microsoft against Lindows and Wine, they simply speak speak speak envious...
Well if they claimed for their IP, why they don't make REALLY a legal action?
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 107 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-May-2002 12:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Eva):
Why are you posting what has been mentioned several 100's of times?
Oh, right, you're trolling...
You think MOS is legal, fine, it's your opinion, AmiFan might think otherwise, fine again, it's his opinion.
Oh, also, you are comparing apples & oranges, the truth is neighter you or me can tell for 100% why the show has been cancelled, is it under Ainc's pressure? Who knows, is it because the guys at 3sat screwed up? God knows
Now tell me, why do you feel the need to bash Ainc & Hyperion in threads about topics that don't even include them? The only referrences to both companies are issue'd out of asumptions & people's own opinions, IOW, what you (and several others) are spewing here is totally uncalled for, and therefor, plain & simple trolling
PS: While i'm aware that English isn't your native language (it isn't mine neighter) you might want to at least try to spell correctly, how can hyperion "spread sheet"?
Amon_Re
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 108 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 22-May-2002 12:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 102 (Eva):
>At this point I HOPE TO SEE a legal action, to see a day AMigaInc close defintively and leave the scene...
But we only have peoples word to go on as to whether code was or wasn't stolen. While I agree that the AmigaOS API's are fully documented and its easy to make a work-a-like (AROS anyone?), we do not know who is lying and who is telling the truth, do we?
So, based purely on heresay, you are actively hoping to see Amiga Inc. close?
I am not anti-MorphOS. I've never used it, but I've never used AmigaOS4 either (or any part of it).
Why doesn't everyone stop shouting and mudslinging, and just wait and see?
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 109 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by eXolon on 22-May-2002 13:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Eva):
Lindows is not a real product yet. The case was over the use of the name - a branding issue - and not compatibility and is not conceeded yet.
Some people may be posting without a brain, but that suggests they have them in the first place whereas you arguably do not have a brain without which to post.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 110 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Sergio on 22-May-2002 13:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Eva):
Philosophical considerations come indeed very handy in a lawsuit :))
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 111 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 22-May-2002 13:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 102 (Eva):
|It's so simply to compare wine for linux to abox under morphos.
|They are about |the same thing. And Microsoft (not a small
|company ...) loose its legal action against wine creators.
|But this thing sure is not important for Ben Herman and
|his friends :)
Do you have all the knowledge behind the scenes, do you even know what was Lindows case!? It seems you don't but still, you have to rant about it... let decide who has the power to do it, justice, why you come with arguments when so clearly you have no idea of what you're talkin about...
It seems everyone now is a laywer...
pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 112 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund on 22-May-2002 13:41 GMT
I don't think they cancelled the demonstration because of the "maybe" lawsuit!
I believe 3sat cancelled the demonstration because Bplan+MorphOS didn't tell the truth to 3sat!
3sat never said anything about either Bplan or MorphOS! Bplan properbly said to 3sat that they were making a new Amiga and who wouldn't be interested the "first" public demonstration of the new AMIGA?
And now they have heard the it's "nothing famus", just a Bplan Pegasos with MorphOS running on it!!!
I look forward to see the real thing: the AmigaOneG3-SE with AmigaOS 4.0!!!
The best wished for Amiga, Hyperion and Eyetech!
Henning Nielsen Lund [Denmark]
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 113 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by anon on 22-May-2002 13:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (pixie):
>It seems everyone now is a laywer...
No.. only BH and samface are lawyers
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 114 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 22-May-2002 13:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 112 (Henning Nielsen Lund):
>3sat never said anything about either Bplan or MorphOS! Bplan properbly said
>to 3sat that they were making a new Amiga and who wouldn't be interested
>the "first" public demonstration of the new AMIGA?
Was it your last braincells which came up with this theory?
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 115 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 22-May-2002 13:52 GMT
Anyway..
This seems like nothing but a RUMOUR to me. Is Morphos-News.de our ONLY source?
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 116 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-May-2002 14:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 112 (Henning Nielsen Lund):
>Bplan properbly said to 3sat that they were making a new Amiga
That's really bad speculation!
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 117 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Bladerunner on 22-May-2002 14:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 115 (Anders Kjeldsen):
Nope
If you are able to read german language, surf to www.3sat.de search vor "neues" and you will find for the 27 may another
topic (a few days ago, there was an Amiga related Topic annonced, now it has been removed and a new topic is there)
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 118 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 22-May-2002 14:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (anon):
|No.. only BH and samface are lawyers
I know that... others seems to forguet that, they have their own laws on their minds, and think real world is ruled by them...
pixie- blah, blah, blah, you know what! :)
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 119 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 22-May-2002 14:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 90 (Anders Kjeldsen):
If the law said you had to die I would hope there was a good reason for it, at least. But that's a pretty silly thing to come up with when discussing whether or not your crusade is childish and just a bad old thing to do.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 120 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 22-May-2002 14:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (Anders Kjeldsen):
A couple of threads back I did say I was sorry. Come on, prove me wrong :)
Hint: MorphOS logo has an embedded bPlan logo, which I didn't see. I see it now.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 121 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 22-May-2002 14:45 GMT
if this proves true yet another reason to boycot dot com amino clowns..
fleecy can jump in the lake with his bs ip and arogance..
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 122 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 22-May-2002 14:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 91 (anon):
I heard you are anonymous because we know you...
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 123 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 22-May-2002 15:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 120 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
>Hint: MorphOS logo has an embedded bPlan logo, which I didn't see. I see it
>now.
Oh, it must have been hard to admit that.. or?
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 124 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 22-May-2002 15:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 123 (Anders Kjeldsen):
No, actually. That was easy. What with me laughing my ass off on the floor for being such a blind bat.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 125 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 22-May-2002 15:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
>If the law said you had to die I would hope there was a good reason for it,
>at least. But that's a pretty silly thing to come up with when discussing
>whether or not your crusade is childish and just a bad old thing to do.
So I have a crusade now? Great :) Just because someone wins a case, it doesn't mean that everybody has to like them. Now I care more about myself than some people trying to make a buck on the name that has been abandoned for ten years.
You don't understand the purpose of putting something on the edge, do you?
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 126 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund on 22-May-2002 15:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Anders Kjeldsen):
We will know, when we get a statement from 3sat!
I won't belive a statement from Bplan!!!
>In Reply to Comment 112:
>>3sat never said anything about either Bplan or MorphOS! Bplan properbly said
>>to 3sat that they were making a new Amiga and who wouldn't be interested
>>the "first" public demonstration of the new AMIGA?
>
>Was it your last braincells which came up with this theory?
I believe in, what I wrote (maybe it wasn't totally correct, but I still believe it's near the truth)!
The announcement made by 3sat was that they on the 27may would show the new Amiga, the AmigaOS running AmigaOS!!!
Bplan announced 3sat on the 27may would show the Pegasos with MorphOS!!!
So where where the "braincells" of Bplan??? (And your?)
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 127 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 22-May-2002 15:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 125 (Anders Kjeldsen):
Heh :-) I'll leave the rest of your statement alone, just to prevent getting dragged
back into the discussion, but I have to comment on this:
-
> You don't understand the purpose of putting something on the edge, do you?
-
That's a bit funny coming from the guy who just said "So I have a crusade now?"...:-)
-
Kay
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 128 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 22-May-2002 16:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 115 (Anders Kjeldsen):
"This seems like nothing but a RUMOUR to me. Is Morphos-News.de our ONLY source?"
No. I hope that we will have an official statement from Bplan.
It is funny to see how the people here build stories and how some of them are so sure about them ...
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 129 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 22-May-2002 16:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 125 (Anders Kjeldsen):
You put me on edge, so don't complain to me about it ;)
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 130 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-May-2002 16:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 126 (Henning Nielsen Lund):
You say it has been just a PR gag?
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 131 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 22-May-2002 16:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 130 (Anonymous):
He says that's what I think. I say let him think what he wants, either come up with your own theory (and choose whether to say what it is out loud or not), believe him, or keep an open mind until you hear the official reason. I expect some rather colourful language from bPlan if Hennings theory is right, though. They would really pull out the "blame-stormer" then...
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 132 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund on 22-May-2002 16:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 130 (Anonymous):
>You say it has been just a PR gag?
No, not realy, I just think Bplan fucked up the thing calling their product Amiga-something (maybe compatible, without saying that it's just some OS running on PPC with build in Amiga emulation)!
But I look farward to se the real AMIGA :o)
On amiga.org Ben Hermans said that AmigaOS 4.0 is almost ready!!!
http://amiga.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=442
WOW :o)
There are also some other nice details :o)
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 133 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Remco Komduur on 22-May-2002 16:32 GMT
I became anti MorphOS because of the way bPLan and it's followers act against OS 4. They started it and I will finish it.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 134 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 22-May-2002 16:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 131 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
Now I am loosing focus again. He doesn't say that's what _I_ think, he says it's what _he_ thinks :)
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 135 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund on 22-May-2002 16:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
Jeps ;o)
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 136 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 22-May-2002 16:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 133 (Remco Komduur):
I became anti AmigaOS4 because of the way Amiga and it's followers act against MorphOS. They started it and I will finish it.
Of course I'am not Anti anything.
I don't like some of the comments, the waste of enregy, ressources etc
There are no good guys against bad guys, just two companies competing and starting to sabotage each other.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 137 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 22-May-2002 17:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
>>You don't understand the purpose of putting something on the edge, do you?
>That's a bit funny coming from the guy who just said "So I have a crusade >now?"...:-)
Yes, that is kind of funny. So, did he call it a "crusade" to make a point clear? No, he didn't ("Crusade", how ever, I believe was "on the edge"). I put a situation on the egde to make a point. See how I see the difference?
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 138 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 22-May-2002 17:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 132 (Henning Nielsen Lund):
>No, not realy, I just think Bplan fucked up the thing calling their product
>Amiga-something (maybe compatible, without saying that it's just some OS
>running on PPC with build in Amiga emulation)!
I don't think BPlan is stupid enough to relate their product too much to Amiga with all this legal-talk all around.
>But I look farward to se the real AMIGA :o)
You probably got your "real" amiga right in front of you.
>On amiga.org Ben Hermans said that AmigaOS 4.0 is almost ready!!!
>http://amiga.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=442
Oh dear, you're really a sad victim of marketing.
"It’s hard to express this percentage-wise because there are so many independent OS modules."
There. That sentence says it all to me. Now I'm going to read the rest, just in case.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 139 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 22-May-2002 18:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 136 (Christophe Decanini):
Well, as far as I've seen, the Morphos-team hasn't been that involved in forums for the last 6-x months. Also the Friedens stopped. I think that they were all wise. But then there's Ben Hermans.. :)
1) AmigaOS4 is almost ready
2) Wait a while longer while they complete the TESTING and integration
3) It doesn't make sense to release more screenshots YET, but in a few weeks.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 140 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 22-May-2002 18:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (Anders Kjeldsen):
"Well, as far as I've seen, the Morphos-team hasn't been that involved in forums for the last 6-x months. Also the Friedens stopped. I think that they were all wise. But then there's Ben Hermans.. :) "
I thin that the people that stay quiet and delivers are smarter (whoever they are)
"1) AmigaOS4 is almost ready "
Wrong. Or we don't have the same "almost ready" definition.
"2) Wait a while longer while they complete the TESTING and integration"
They are still coding the kernel and you speak about testing and integration ...
"3) It doesn't make sense to release more screenshots YET, but in a few weeks. "
I don't care about screenshots.
I don't see any relationship between what you answer and my post.
At this stage being pro MorphOS or pro AmigaOS4 is just being the victim off all the the FUD spread around lately.
If you told me that you tested both and liked one better I would understand but here it is just about politics: a lot of people prefers the one that announces the most.
I respect some people in both sides. I would hope the success for all but know the situation is so bad that I doubt anyone will be successfull :(
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 141 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 22-May-2002 18:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 140 (Christophe Decanini):
>I don't see any relationship between what you answer and my post.
No, you don't :)
The comments below comes (slightly modified) from the interview with Ben H.
1) AmigaOS4 is almost ready
2) Wait a while longer while they complete the TESTING and integration
3) It doesn't make sense to release more screenshots YET, but in a few weeks.
I find it strange that he says that it's "almost" ready, but not ready enough for the SECOND release of screenshots. Still, he still claims that there is "only" some testing and integration left. At least that's the impression he tries to make.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 142 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund on 22-May-2002 18:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 141 (Anders Kjeldsen):
Ben Hermans wrote:
<I decided to hold off on any further screenshots in the immediate future.
<
<The reason is that I also want to include shots of the new preferences editors <for Intuition.
<
<These are still in the works.
http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1021990982&category=news&17#message7
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 143 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 22-May-2002 20:46 GMT
Certainly if AmigaInc sue Bplan over MorphOS, I'll do what I can to
make this known - with the intent to make AInc pay for such a
destructive action. I hope this will not happen, however.
A threat? No. If AInc thinks it's the right thing to do, they
shouldn't worry that people get to know about it. However, if they are
even the least bit aware that a lot of people will be disgusted by
such an action, they would be wise not to try something like this.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 144 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 22-May-2002 22:03 GMT
if amino sue bplan/morphos, trust me a lot of former amigans will know about it and know aminio hyporcracy.
for years they have been against ppc and development of os4
and now after years of development they want to stop the people that got
off their ass and did the hard work instead of making pr statements about vaporware..
a lot of people do not like amino strategy and atttitude and business dealings over the last two years.. and can u blame them? expect the boycott campaign to step up five million notches if amino clowns sue bplan/morphos.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 145 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Yeee Haaa on 22-May-2002 23:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 144 (cheesegrate):
I hope they sue... asuming MorphOS gets delivered.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 146 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 23-May-2002 00:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 145 (Yeee Haaa):
yeah so either amino or bplan will go bankrupt is that what u hope for?
asshole
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 147 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Leki on 23-May-2002 05:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (Johan Rönnblom):
well i hope they sue the morphos team if they have used Amiga IP and that people know about it.....that way the next thief who thinks they can rip off Amiga`s IP will think again about doing it when they know the last rip of company got sued.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 148 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 23-May-2002 06:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 144 (cheesegrate):
> expect the boycott campaign to step up five million notches if amino clowns
> sue bplan/morphos.
-
And you would hold it against them whether MOS actually is illegal or not, wouldn't
you?
-
Kay
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 149 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 23-May-2002 06:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (Eva):
>You, stupid ignorant, want a flame?
Nope, I was behaving myself in a very civilized way *grin*.
>Ok let's go.
Nooooooo Whyyyyyyyy!!???? I don't deserve that!!!! LOL!
>Ignorant, we just saw a running Morphos + Bplan at AmigaPlanet in Italy and in >Colone 6 months AGO.
LOL! in a closed tower. Talking about ignorance...And what's your point anyway, I gave an example of what negative publicity you can get when bPlan cancelled the demonstration instead of 3SAT. Hard to get uh....Maybe I should write it down in Italian next time?
>Mos+Bplan EXISTS and runS, contrary to VAPOR like OS4 and AmigaOne that was >NEVER showed (simply because they are actually VAPOR for stupid SO CALLED >amifan).
You know the meaning of the word "vapor", do you....?
Anyway...I think it's kinda funny that I'm not an Amifan if I deny the existance of a fully working MorphOS+Pegasos. Can't I call myself WinFan when I deny the exsistance of a 1.5GHz G5 MAC? What makes you so frustrated...
>I think it's better you stay calm and use your brain, if you have it, before >you start a flame.
Haha well, reading a couple more comments like this and I might laugh my brain out. Keep it going m8 *grin*.
Pegasos presentation in 'neues' cancelled! : Comment 150 of 179ANN.lu
Posted by Amifan on 23-May-2002 07:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (Eva):
>Ahahah every serious tv progs then would ask :" Where is the LEgal acts?? In >you mind, or in a court?"
Haha Even David Scheibler makes more sense then you, but even he has to admit that he makes terrible little sense lately....
>Actually someone can only answer: "In my MS-like mind"
You made a type, you probable ment: "In my SM-mind." Because you serious raped your brain by coming up with comments like this.
Don't take it personally m8, I know that some MorphOS-fanatics take this cacelling as if the lost personally...
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