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[News] The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos)ANN.lu
Posted on 25-May-2002 17:32 GMT by petros1815122 comments
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The AmigaOne was presented in Leeuwarden today. Unfortunately, only openfirmware bios was shown. Photos of the presentation at http://www.amigascene.nl/nieuws/nieuws.htm . At around 15.00 Computer City brought the AmigaOne motherboard. It is the first sample of the 1.0a board. Because the motherboard was different from the one that Eyetech had, it was not possible to use the Linux from the old board. Because there was no more time for a new installation, we had to do only with the openfirmware bios. There are installed a IBM processor (without cooling!), 128MB, Soundblaster soundcard and a ATi Radeon 7500 AGP. It now waits for OS4.
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 101 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 27-May-2002 14:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (GUI Freak):
I still don't think you have got the point that OpenFirmware is not the OS, and does not provide anything for the OS running on the machine. All it does is boot the OS from disk/DVD/CD/flash memory.
It is bypassed upon standard bootup. You have to press a special key combination to get into it.
I do agree that overall look and feel, all the way through, is important. And thus I hope that Eyetech are putting in the work on presentation. But the look and feel of the OpenFirmware UI is way down on the list of things to do.
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 102 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 27-May-2002 15:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 101 (Graham):
The look and feel of a BIOS should NEVER be what makes you interested in an OS, as they are simply not related. At all. Personally, I think the OF screen as shown this weekend looks a lot more like the Early Startup Menu than it does an Award BIOS, though. It's a very good place to start. Would be cool if Hyperion could get a deal with those who make the OF here to make their OF do what we amigans expect of it. Kind of "join them and beat them from behind", you know? But the only way that approach works is if you are willing to risk joining them ;)
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 103 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-May-2002 15:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 101 (Graham):
>But the look and feel of the OpenFirmware UI is way down on the list of things to do.
Like "Actually getting the board up and running _beyond_ the OF screen", "Delivering the rest of the boards" and "Getting the next version of the board, with a G4 or two in a socket"? I would say those are a _bit_ more important to me as a fanatic amigan, yes. I mean, here we have a board that only shows the OF screen, and instead of flaming about how it's a bloody useless board if it doesn't have an OS people start flaming about the look of the OF? Not that it _IS_ a bloody useless board that can't boot an OS, but still...
(that whole thing was a joke, really. I'm not saying it cannot boot Linux, I'm not whining at Eyetech for being late, I'm just trying to shoot down a troll using humour. And the Troll I'm referring to isn't Graham. His post just had such a nice starting point for mine :) )
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 104 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Henning Nielsen Lund on 27-May-2002 17:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
Joe "Floid" Kanowitz:
Thats alright ;o)
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 105 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 27-May-2002 21:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (GUI Freak):
>The programers need to think about how to include/engage
>the end user, not how to shut them out.
Man, you've no clue of what you're saying, do you? What end-user are you talking about? The end user (your average end user) not only never accesses the BIOS, but he/she doesn't even knows that such things exists. The BIOS is stuff that is (and should) only be touched by power users who know where they're putting their hands. It gives you access to hardware configuration before the boot of the OS. It is not the OS, it does have *nothing* to do with the OS.
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 106 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Julian Cassin on 27-May-2002 22:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 105 (amigammc):
If you look at all the past computers ever built, probably the best of the bunch are all the hobbyist computers. The mainstream ones usually pale by comparison - both in the fun factor and in the overall hardware/software design.
Even all the 80s computers should be considered hobbyist computers as the general public didn't want computers in those days.
I *want* a hobbyist machine, not a mainstream one - if it is a hobbyist Amiga machine, all the more merry if they keep all the bells & wistles of the old one.
Yes, 15.6Khz *IS* important to many people, yes, it's elegance of hardware/software design is also - including the autoconfig - the ability to boot (into a CLI) in a few seconds or less (not 15 like my Windoze machine) - the ability to choose which devices to *disable* at bootup without having to remove them from some silly detection screen (aka PC BIOS) - I admit, I haven't seen an Open Firmware BIOS running, and I did say I might be jumping the gun, I might be pleasantly surprised - but I have some doubts...
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 107 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Bert Dorhout on 27-May-2002 22:29 GMT
Strange thread, this.
Let's compare to a modern PowerMac. Is has a way to access the Open Firmware. I never saw anyone do it, and didn't even know how to until this thread, and I work as a Mac HelpDesk for 400 Mac users.
Start a Mac, hold the Option key (ALT to some). The Mac shows a screen with nice Maccy graphics to let you choose the medium to boot from. Isn't THAT comparable to the Early Startup Menu??? (I mean, it could have more functions on the new Amy's, but...). It is something with a reasonable GUI-ish thing, very Mac, etc., and it comes AFTER the OF. I even think the OF should NOT be Amiga specific, since people might want to boot other OSses from the Amy hardware. Just put a startup menu after the OF (which people seldom to never have to see/access), and everyone's probs in this thread should be solved, I think? (well... :-) And who knows... perhaps that's already coded/planned???
:-)
Bert
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 108 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 28-May-2002 06:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (Bert Dorhout):
Excactly what's happening here. You do the early startup-screen AFTER the OF (because you really need the OF to load your OS lest you write your own firmware. is propietary always better, uhm? =) )
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 109 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 28-May-2002 10:57 GMT
As (almost) always, I am not so much astounded by the original misconception, but by the failure of the others to correct it...
1) Do not fear - any "standard" BIOS automatically initializes installed SCSI cards (which usually have a BIOS of their own), so your SCSI drives will be there from the start.
2) Even your off-the-shelf 486 can let you chose your booting partition, this has nothing to do with BIOS. The BIOS initializes busses, cards, and ports, then starts the bootup code. That bootup code can be anything from a bare-bones LILO to a full-featured GUI to chose your OS of choice - depending on how long you are willing to wait before you make the choice. (GUI code requires graphics and AGP drivers to be loaded.) This is called "boot manager". Examples are VAMOS, XOSL, LILO.
3) Amiga Early Startup Menu is more or less equivalent to such a GUI boot manager, not to a BIOS interface. The Amiga, with it's fixed hardware, had no *need* for BIOS settings. If your AmigaOne manufacturer knows his stuff, you should have no need to ever *CHANGE* BIOS settings - unless you like to tamper, or need to work around buggy peripherals. Think of BIOS settings as a feature the Amiga did *NOT* have.
4) Of course a "standard" BIOS cannot possibly display the same amount of graphical beauty as the Kickstart Early Startup. Reason is simple: The Kickstart was 512 kB custom code linked to custom, well-known-at-Kickstart-build-time hardware. If you don't have custom hardware (as in AGP / PCI), and your BIOS is like, 64? kB, you don't display fancy widgets. You settle for smallest common denominator - text. (Remember that a 64 kB BIOS is *not* equivalent to the 512 kByte Kickstart boot manager, neither in concept nor functionality...)
5) If your AmigaOne BIOS gets in the way, do not flame the concept of BIOS, flame the manufacturer for not pre-setting the BIOS correctly.
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 110 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 28-May-2002 11:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 108 (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren):
Ole said,
>Excactly what's happening here. You do the early startup-screen AFTER the OF
>(because you really need the OF to load your OS lest you write your own firmware.
>is propietary always better, uhm? =) )
For a few hours there, I was worried the OS was going to be silly enough to require a proprietary loader as well as dongle... *whew* :)
For those of us with little practical OF experience, I stumbled across
http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-powerpc/1998/02/17/0000.html , which puts it in perspective vs. the standard Wintel BIOS (designed for a bit of device abstraction) and the big ROMs of Amigas/Macs/STs (well, I assume the ST had a ROM).
An Amiga-consistent UI on the firmware (whether for the OF setup or after it) would certainly be nice, but let's face it- anything that further delays release is a Bad Thing. As that part of the system should be flashable, improvements/adjustments can be added later.
Boot-time screenmodes shouldn't be too much of a problem (especially with some DDC tricks thrown in) but I'm not entirely sure.. Do Europeans get seperate SCART ports on their video cards, or are HD15->SCART adapters popular? You only need 15KHzish output for those certain special cases, so ideally it should pop into 640x480, 800x600, or even better- whatever you normally boot the OS into- when it's attached to a capable monitor. (Anyone else tired of listening to their multisync popping around?)
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 111 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 28-May-2002 11:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 110 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
That's the other point. Every change of resolution / timing means your monitor has to resync yet another time. This is annoying enough for system BIOS / gfx card BIOS / SCSI BIOS (yes! They tend to have their own BIOSes!), do you want *yet* another switch to high-res for "Early Startup", then back to basic while the OS boots, then back up to the desktop? Personally, I would really welcome a system that switches *ONCE* from BIOS to OS, period...
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 112 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 28-May-2002 11:59 GMT
In case it's still unclear the dev boards should have 600Mhz CPU:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amigaone/message/16294
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 113 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 28-May-2002 12:01 GMT
One can set the multiplier.... hmmm... overclocking possibilities sprung to my mind... ;P
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 114 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Jon on 28-May-2002 18:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (priest):
Heh, these boards are beasts compared to classic hw ;)
Let's wait until warranty ends, at least =)
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 115 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 29-May-2002 04:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Jon):
Pardon me, but *any* HW is a beast compared to the "Classic". Hell, my Jornada 720 gives better overall performance (counting in interface options, included applications etc.) than a stock A4000...
The question is, will it be enough to compete with the "real" computing world, which fields 2 GHz IA32 CPUs (or 800 GHz G4) in notebooks? No matter what Hyperion (or the MorphOS team...) might tell you, the niche does not protect you from competition...
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 116 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Julian Cassin on 29-May-2002 07:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 110 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
I need 15Khz output so I don't need to cart a monitor everywhere I go. I would prefer a compact A1200 style case so it fits nicely in my bag - no, I don't want a laptop - unless it fits 3.5" HDDs and can fit new CPU cards in it...
Julian
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 117 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Julian Cassin on 29-May-2002 07:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 115 (Solar):
Are you suggesting that Amiga should try *change* their market or something? Why not just go for the Home Computer/Hobbyist market? That's what they *should* be after...
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 118 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 29-May-2002 07:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 116 (Julian Cassin):
That depends entirely on which graphics card you decide to use.
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 119 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 29-May-2002 07:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 117 (Julian Cassin):
AmigaAnywhere is just like what it says, targeted for use anywhere. AmigaOS4.x is for a seperate niche/hobbyist market. Regardless if they succeed or not, you can't say they didn't try the alternative marketing approach since they're doing both. It doesn't get any better than this, guys. :-P
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 120 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 29-May-2002 11:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 117 (Julian Cassin):
Julian,
> Are you suggesting that Amiga should try *change* their market
> or something? Why not just go for the Home Computer/Hobbyist
> market?
The current "home computer / hobbyist" machine is the one they sell in the discounter. Last time I looked that was a 1.8 GHz Pentium IV system with a GeForce MX gfx card...
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 121 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by hgm on 29-May-2002 21:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 120 (Solar):
That is right. As long as one cannot buy the AOne or Pega this is al VAPOR.
Even a Zillion UGLY screenshots is no more and no less VAPOR.
The AmigaOne in Leeuwarden (photos) : Comment 122 of 122ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil Hvitmyren on 30-May-2002 05:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 110 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
"For a few hours there, I was worried the OS was going to be silly enough to require a proprietary loader as well as dongle... *whew* :)
For those of us with little practical OF experience, I stumbled across
http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-powerpc/1998/02/17/0000.html , which puts it in perspective vs. the standard Wintel BIOS (designed for a bit of device abstraction) and the big ROMs of Amigas/Macs/STs (well, I assume the ST had a ROM)."
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