| [Rant] AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site | ANN.lu |
| Posted on 06-Jun-2002 04:30 GMT by Seehund | 280 comments
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AmigaPOP.8bit.co.uk is finally online!
Here you'll hopefully find all information you could possibly want about the "AmigaOS distribution policies and POP/PPC hardware petition". I hope the background information and FAQ will be especially helpful to clear up any confusion surrounding these issues.
If you have not yet signed the petition, then please do so now! Please help spreading the word by linking to AmigaPOP.8bit.co.uk. It's not too late to save our favourite OS and a unified POP-based hardware market!
In other news, I have finally managed to get in touch with the PetitionOnline.com administrators. The few abuse and sabotage attempts so far have been removed from the signatory listings. Not that any garbage would ever reach the recipient of our petition, but I understand some thought that it didn't look too good...
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 201 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jun-2002 10:08 GMT | In reply to Comment 198 (Menthos):
> "If I buy an OS from a self proclaimed "software company" they shouldn't
> dictate the hardware available to me, artificially."
>
> Well, go and buy a WindowsXP for PPC! ;)
>
> Software companies have always dictated the hardware they run on in one way or
> another, sorry to say.
Can you read? He did say "artificially", now didn't he? Is WinXP articifially disabled so that it can't run on specific hardware that is compatible? |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 202 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Tbone on 07-Jun-2002 10:14 GMT | In reply to Comment 198 (Menthos):
"Well, go and buy a WindowsXP for PPC! ;) "
Bah! ;)
"Software companies have always dictated the hardware they run on in one way or another, sorry to say. "
Platform and hardware are a wee bit different... I've no qualm with AOS4 targeting a POP/PPC Platform, like Windows XP targets the X86 platform, but if Microsoft told me I could only use Chaintech motherboards!
Actually I'd -relish- AmigaOS targeting the POP/PPC platform, we could ride this new POP wave somewhere rather than being a closet POP spinoff. We could show all those linux geeks what a cool geek OS really can do on the same hardware they run their PPClinux on... If we could work out a way to prevent piracy while doing this, we'd all be happy and there'd be beer and girls and... well you get the picture ;)
besides, these linux geeks who made linux work on all the POP goodies, come in very handy when you need help with drivers, when they've already done them for linux ;) |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 203 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Menthos on 07-Jun-2002 10:15 GMT | In reply to Comment 199 (Tbone):
Some good points... =)
"Anyway, who's been supporting you the past 10 years?"
Not relevant as there has only been one "sort" of Amigacomputer. Every software was written especially for it (not expecting it to run on other computersystems). Also, there was the same company that "produced" the OS and the hardware (H&P not included, but they where working for Amiga with OS3.5-OS3.9).
Don't you expect AmigaOS to run on an Amiga?
But does AmigaOS run on xxx-motherboard is another question, don't you think?
/Menthos |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 204 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 07-Jun-2002 10:20 GMT | In reply to Comment 197 (Tbone):
>I'm not interested in Eyetech's sales, and neither should Amiga. If I buy an
>OS from a self proclaimed "software company" they shouldn't dictate the
>hardware available to me, artificially.
You're not interested in Eyetech's sales? But Eyetech are, and I don't think that Eyetech are interested in having this piracy-protection if OTHER PPC-boards (except B/CPP) don't have to have it. And if Eyetech don't want to have it, then that will lead to more piracy of AmigaOS4 and that's bad for Hyperion. They're all important to eachother. And if Hyperion wanted a totally free market, I guess they would go for x86. I also think that more hardware platforms also lead to more diffucult support.
Who knows, maybe AmigaOS4.x will be available to other PPC-boards a while after the first release?
Again, just the way I see it. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 205 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Menthos on 07-Jun-2002 10:23 GMT | In reply to Comment 202 (Tbone):
I just tried to point out that we are in the softwareproducers hands when it comes to hardware (Go AA, go!) if we like it or not... =(
And expecting Linux-ppl to pay for a OS is not really what I think is going to happen... Not for OS4 (.0, .1?) anyway...
/Menthos |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 206 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mika Hanhijärvi on 07-Jun-2002 10:23 GMT | | I can't be wondering don't you guys want to support Amiga companies at all ? I can't understand why you are demending support for another POP-boards now when AmigaOne is almost here. Firstly don't you understand that Hyperion can't do everything atonce, they are not as big as microsoft :P Secondly, you can aggree or disagree that Eyetech has done good work, I don't really care what whiners think. I think Amiga Inc, Hyperion and Eyetech have all done good work. I think they deserv our support, whitout them we would not get AmigaOne or OS4. If you don't aggree with me then buy a PC, use Windpws and SHUT UP!! If AmigOne+OS4 sells well enough then maybe someday we will see another POP-hardware. You can't get everything now, |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 207 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Menthos on 07-Jun-2002 10:28 GMT | In reply to Comment 201 (Anonymous):
Dear Ms Scared!
Get a life! It wasn't so serious (apparently some understood it)...
/Menthos |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 208 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Tbone on 07-Jun-2002 10:30 GMT | In reply to Comment 203 (Menthos):
"Not relevant as there has only been one "sort" of Amigacomputer. Every software was written especially for it (not expecting it to run on other computersystems). Also, there was the same company that "produced" the OS and the hardware (H&P not included, but they where working for Amiga with OS3.5-OS3.9). "
"Don't you expect AmigaOS to run on an Amiga? "
"But does AmigaOS run on xxx-motherboard is another question, don't you think?"
(Ann needs threads, and quoting :)
That kind of ties in to the benefits of developing for a platform, as the standards are already there to ensure compatibility, you in essence, get compatibility for free, as the platform itself polices the standards.
Like you said, when the standards are the same (like the classic Amiga's), support becomes somewhat irrelevant as the platform itself is compatible.
This in the long run (or shite even the short term) guarantees standards compliance. Right now, Amiga has no set of published standards other than the Zico spec which doesn't tell you squat about how to manufacture for an Amiga. If they'd say "Our hardware standard is POP" they'd get the compatibility and standards for free, without having to sort out guidelines and specs for developers other than the OS API's. All you as a consumer would have to worry about is, is it POP compatible? All the manufacturer would have to worry about is, is it POP compatible?
This way, we get to stand on the shoulders of a platform who's specs are already established, and even rise with the tide of dawning hardware as it's becoming available. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 209 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Menthos on 07-Jun-2002 10:40 GMT | In reply to Comment 208 (Tbone):
But again we have the question: How do we prevent the piracy and how do we get good support for our computers? The support is not only to get the OS running it also includes repair and so on. I for one dreads for when my CSPPC dies, because I really don't want to send it to DCE to never be seen again...
This license, I think, is a double bladed axe agains pirates and bad companies (NO I HAVE NOT POINTED MY FINGERS AT BPLAN HERE!!!).
It is a protection for us customers to get support for the OS aswell as the hardware and it is a protection for Amiga to get down the number of pirated copies of the OS.
Too bad some manufacturer don't have time or interest for getting a license, but hopefully someone else will get one if the hardware is good.
(Fingers still crossed for someone to come and make the Pegasos AOS4 enabled as people seems to want this)
/Menthos |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 210 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Marcus Sundman on 07-Jun-2002 10:41 GMT | In reply to Comment 207 (Menthos):
> Dear Ms Scared!
It was me, I just forgot to type in the name.
> Get a life!
I don't want another.
> It wasn't so serious (apparently some understood it)...
So you reply with some completely idiotic comment and when someone points out that the comment is idiotic then you get upset? Of course I understood that "Well, go and buy a WindowsXP for PPC! ;)" was not meant to be taken seriously (hence the get-me-out-of-jail card), but you gave no hint about not to take your other comment seriously. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 211 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Tbone on 07-Jun-2002 10:43 GMT | In reply to Comment 208 (Tbone):
This way, we get to stand on the shoulders of a platform who's specs are already established, and even rise with the tide of dawning hardware as it's becoming available.
(replying to myself ;)
I should add, we'll only get this chance once, as the port is happening now, if we don't direct our port at the POP platform now, the platform won't wait for us, and the tide will rise for unlicensed hardware, but we'll have to go through this whole thing again to get more boards licensed and dongleized or whatever. I've no problem starting with an A1 from Eyetech, it's all that's available... (not counting Bermuda tri^H^H^H^HDCE Pegasos) But I would like to ride the tide upwards, and what happens if Amiga decides AmigaOS is dead and DE is king and no more licenses get granted?
With a targeted platform, we have no worries about obsolecense. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 212 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Trizt on 07-Jun-2002 10:53 GMT | In reply to Comment 204 (Anders Kjeldsen):
> You're not interested in Eyetech's sales? But Eyetech are, and I don't
> think that Eyetech are interested in having this piracy-protection if
> OTHER PPC-boards (except B/CPP) don't have to have it. And if Eyetech
> don't want to have it, then that will lead to more piracy of AmigaOS4
> and that's bad for Hyperion. They're all important to eachother. And
> if Hyperion wanted a totally free market, I guess they would go for
> x86. I also think that more hardware platforms also lead to more
> diffucult support.
As enduser, you can't think about a companies sales, it your wallet that talks, maybe you have loads of money, I don't. I wish to get my things as cheap as possible. With a "piracy-protection" you get high prices as you have a limited amount of boards to choose from and eyetech will take as much as possible to get as much profit as possible.
If Hyperion would fear piracy that much, they would have said to Amiga Inc that they aren't willing to develope AmigaOS4 for them.
Don't forget that the hardware will be limited more than in just the motherboard way, as there won't be support to many expansion, atleast not on the graphics board side... you won't get much of freedom, just a voodoo3 card. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 213 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Menthos on 07-Jun-2002 10:53 GMT | In reply to Comment 210 (Marcus Sundman):
Sorry to call you Ms Scared then...
As stadet above we are in the hands of the softwarecompanies on what hardware we can run... That was my point, but I can admit I didn't focus on the 'artificial' part of the post I commented... Sorry about that.
/Menthos |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 214 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Trizt on 07-Jun-2002 10:55 GMT | In reply to Comment 206 (Mika Hanhijärvi):
> If AmigOne+OS4 sells well enough then maybe someday we will see
> another POP-hardware. You can't get everything now
But there are already other POP-hardwares... |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 215 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Tbone on 07-Jun-2002 11:04 GMT | In reply to Comment 209 (Menthos):
But again we have the question: How do we prevent the piracy and how do we get good support for our computers? The support is not only to get the OS running it also includes repair and so on. I for one dreads for when my CSPPC dies, because I really don't want to send it to DCE to never be seen again... "
LOL, I hear ya ;)
Hardware repair is a warranty issue, these details are available from most manufacturers, regardless of OS. I don't need Amiga protecting me from my hardware decisions, I don't know how they could anyway, they're a software company.
"This license, I think, is a double bladed axe agains pirates and bad companies (NO I HAVE NOT POINTED MY FINGERS AT BPLAN HERE!!!). "
The best defense Amiga has against Morphos is to let their OS run in places MorphOS will not. Who'll run/buy MorphOS if AmigaOS is available for the whole rising platform, while MorphOS users are stuck on a single board that won't benefit from the advancements of the POP platform over time like Amiga could?
"It is a protection for us customers to get support for the OS aswell as the hardware and it is a protection for Amiga to get down the number of pirated copies of the OS. "
The piracy issue I think is going to be moot, I think Amiga/benH are smart enough to not cut off their nose to spite their face, the piracy issue will probably be worked out differently anyway...
As for support, nothing is stopping Amiga from only "supporting" certain boards, like WinXP only "supports" WDM signed nVidia drivers ;) Those of us that choose bleeding edge hardware, will tend to bleed a little, like I did with my Dell laptop and "unsupported" nVidia-go-crash beta drivers ;)
"Too bad some manufacturer don't have time or interest for getting a license, but hopefully someone else will get one if the hardware is good."
I agree, but it's easier to work with Amiga in one place to slightly improve the licensing, than it is to spend the next ten years running after every manufacturer with cool hardware that comes along begging to get licensed.
"(Fingers still crossed for someone to come and make the Pegasos AOS4 enabled as people seems to want this)"
I'd like this, although I have reservations about DCE... I've heard horror stories (shudder) lol ;) |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 216 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Menthos on 07-Jun-2002 11:04 GMT | In reply to Comment 211 (Tbone):
Hopefully if Amiga succeds in its struggle and go all the way to OS5 there will be no problem if I remember it correct. This OS4 is just a step to that path.
But somewhere in this Amiga must think of what will be best for them and they did choose this way and I don't think that they will change it. But I can see that there are valid points on both sides of this camp.
On one side we have the quality/piracy points and on the other we have restrictions on the hardware. No restrictions could make more people buying AOS4 but may also have the opposite effect.
This is no easy questions but I think that it is good to have these discussions. Too bad that official AmigaInc. people have left (or rarely comment) these forums (except Ben, thanks for sticking!) because it would be nice to know their point of view.
But with this "community" all they get is flames when they comment...
/Menthos |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 217 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by David S Lund on 07-Jun-2002 11:10 GMT | Wouldn't it be more useful to petition bPlan to get their hardware certified
with Amiga? Seems that they are the one's making the decision.
Maybe petition the gasoline company not to charge for gasoline? (I'd like to buy
a car, but I want the freedom to choose not to by gas.)
Still really stupid... no signature from me. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 218 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Lukas Stehlik on 07-Jun-2002 11:13 GMT | In reply to Comment 138 (amigammc):
> Pegasos is not an Amiga and Bplan does not own AmigaOS!
Heh. I know, that Bplan does not own AmigaOS,
but Pegasos was developes by well known amigans
and it is important! Please, read this comment:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1018423829&category=news&number=20
"BPlan using a lot of Super Amiga Brains and will manage in my opion the future.... I am quite sure this will bring my beloved Amiga a big step forward." !!!!!! |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 219 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Tbone on 07-Jun-2002 11:15 GMT | In reply to Comment 216 (Menthos):
"But with this "community" all they get is flames when they comment...
/Menthos"
Yep, it was good talking to you anyway, have to leave for work :( thanks for the discussion! ;)
hate to leave in the middle of the thread, probably by the time I get back from work this place will be a festering pit of venom spouting back and forth :| oh well. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 220 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Menthos on 07-Jun-2002 11:15 GMT | In reply to Comment 215 (Tbone):
Well, I have spent too much time on this forum these two days (good my boss is out of office) so I guess its time to bring this to an end now for my part...
Thanks for a very good (parts of it anyway) discussion. Good luck to us all!
/Menthos, who will sertainly comment some more in this thread but not too much... |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 221 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Lukas Stehlik on 07-Jun-2002 11:24 GMT | In reply to Comment 154 (Tbone):
> Any boards they can't sell, they must eat, as they're now "licensed" and
> bound by Amiga's license terms, and MUST be sold with OS4. Not an attractive
> business proposition from the Manufacturers POV.
> Well, so far 1 manufacturer accepted the license, and they're an Amiga
> partner anyway... 2 manufacturers were turned away by the license.
> 2/3 boards so far we've lost, as options available to us users, due to
> this license, already. We're burning our bridges, and we're still on the
> wrong side of the river.
YES YES YES YES! You are right! |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 222 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by amigammc on 07-Jun-2002 12:05 GMT | In reply to Comment 140 (Anonymous):
>I wonder if Dave Haynie was just a pirate or a Morphos fanatic?
Neither, if you can read the thing you quote maybe you can understand that:
>"With the total collapse of ESCOM
That means there was nobody left who owned Amiga, now there is, so give it a break. Amiga Inc. owns all the rights related to the machine/sofyware and they have the right to do whatever they feel is best. Id you don't like how things go in the world become a consultant. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 223 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by amigammc on 07-Jun-2002 12:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 156 (SlimJim):
>Boy do I hate those "ten posts at a time" displays on ANN!
Me too! Can we start a petition? ;-)
No, seriously, I like the old way better, it didn't take that long to load and it was possible to do a search for a specific author, now I just can't and if I want to find out who someone is replying to I have to reload other pages, which makes it much slower than the old way |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 224 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by amigammc on 07-Jun-2002 12:27 GMT | In reply to Comment 174 (Anonymous):
What YOU fail to understand is that that "thing" can be easily made on a USB for $5 or less. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 225 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jun-2002 12:38 GMT | In reply to Comment 224 (amigammc):
So what you are saying is that McEwen et al have done a complete 180 degree turn on their original Executive Statement?
No surprises there... |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 226 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 07-Jun-2002 13:03 GMT | In reply to Comment 212 (Trizt):
>If Hyperion would fear piracy that much, they would have said to Amiga Inc that >they aren't willing to develope AmigaOS4 for them.
Now that's a very stupid remark.
If it would have been that way, we would not even be having this discussion because there would not have been an AmigaOne nor OS 4.
We were willing to undertake this work because it was the last chance for the AmigaOS to survive on modern hardware.
It's only natural that we ask something in return:
that every Amiga licensed hardware other than the Cyberstorm/BlizzardPPC is sold with OS 4, just like every other Amiga was sold with AmigaOS since 1985. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 227 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Marcus Sundman on 07-Jun-2002 13:30 GMT | In reply to Comment 226 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> It's only natural that we ask something in return:
> that every Amiga licensed hardware other than the Cyberstorm/BlizzardPPC is
> sold with OS 4
I think everyone agrees that this is OK.
What people don't like is that you can't buy OS4 and run it on unlicensed hardware. Since there _will_ be people with unlicensed hardware that could run OS4 this will leave no other choice for those people than to crack the copy-protection system of OS4 so that it can be run on their hardware.
I don't want this, nor do I think you want it either.
I truly believe that OS4 would sell better if it was sold with all licensed hardware _and_ as a separate package (including USB-dongle or whatever) to be used on unlicensed POP boards, than if it was _only_ sold with licensed hardware.
Do you, Ben, believe otherwise? Or don't you care how many copies of OS4 is sold and only want as many A1 as possible to be sold? |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 228 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jun-2002 14:37 GMT | In reply to Comment 28 (Samface):
> The "cracking" is made much more difficult as the ROM code needs to be
> present in order for AmigaOS4 to run and the ROM code is within the USB
> dongle, how do you fool the system into thinking the ROM code is available as
> a hardware peripheral?
you don't remember amax? that came with a funky floppy adaptor that you had to put apple roms in, how long did it take someone to crack it to load them from disk? not long. how long will it take someone to hack AOS4? not long if they want to do it, the xbox bios protection has been hacked now. it's all just a matter of time.
I personally think it's stupid to try to protect against piracy, it'll happen whatever you do to stop it. I don't like passwords on peoples computers either. I also accept other people have different opinions though.
Phill |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 229 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Phill on 07-Jun-2002 14:41 GMT | In reply to Comment 37 (Samface):
> Yes, but how do you get the OS to look for the ROM code on the disk? I mean,
> it's not like it will read the ROM code from just anywhere available.
It's called hacking, it involves changing the code...
It would be perfectly possible, but illegal, to buy a non AOS4 AmigaOne & then run a pirated copy of AOS4 on it. To think this won't happen is naive.
Most hackers would do it _because_ there are two different types of AmigaOne boards.
Phill |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 230 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Phill on 07-Jun-2002 14:57 GMT | In reply to Comment 117 (JoBBo):
> MorphOS is illegal as long as it offers Amiga
> compatibility out of the box.
Rubbish, there is no such law.
You can have problems with reverse engineering with regards to copyright infringement, but they are possible to avoid.
There are only three reasons why morphos isn't available:
1. it doesn't work.
2. it needs kickstart to operate.
3. it contains copyright code.
I personally don't care which of these is true, it's not available.
Phill |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 231 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by anonymous on 07-Jun-2002 15:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 227 (Marcus Sundman):
Ok, stupid question maybe but who else is producing this fabled hardware in the first place?
If you genuinely want an existing or prospective board to support OS4 then lobby the vendor. Given the absence of any other solutions this issue seems to boil down to users that either have orphaned hardware or intend to buy the Pegasos.
In the first case the return on investment seems to be negligible given the piracy issue. The only saving grace is that a potentially modest investment in effort to support older hardware could result in long-term dividends as those users invest in new hardware and software. However, supporting legacy hardware slows down innovation and the reality is that some people would never spend a dime to see an earthquake.
The more troubling scenario is that many users may legitimately want to purchase the Pegasos. A sanctioned version of the board with OS4 bundled would benefit everyone by encouraging competition. However, the inability to secure this licensing is clearly the responsibility of bplan/Thendic. The lack of a licensing arrangement will simply encourage hacking to remove any checks for the hardware 'dongle'. And to save what? Maybe $50?
I simply can't see the logic behind exposing the entire community and its remaining developers to peril. I'm 100% behind the licensing scheme. |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 232 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Phill on 07-Jun-2002 15:02 GMT | In reply to Comment 130 (JoBBo):
> Mr. Hermans confirmed that any hardware being capable of running AmigaOS4,
> must be delivered with OS4 ONLY
I've never read anything that said that. He may have said you can only sell a board capable of running aos4 with a copy of aos4, but thats completely different.
Phill |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 233 of 280 | ANN.lu |
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| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 234 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Donovan Reeve on 07-Jun-2002 18:42 GMT | In reply to Comment 174 (Anonymous):
Even if the planned Amiga extentions were to go in the boot rom, which I
seem to recall reading was not the case but rather an additional rom, it
is VERY easy and inexpensive to flash a prom with two (or 100) different
sets of data. Allmost no extra cost to it. And also very easy and low-cost
to reflash a few of them to sell as the other option if need be. But, as I
said, I don't think they are planning on it being contained in a bios prom
anyway. Eyetech is planning to put the nessessary extentions in a seperate
(possibly non-reflashable) rom, which would definately make those boards
"Amigas" and sellable only as such if I understand what they have said
correctly. But that wouldn't stop them from also selling other boards made
in the same production run with that chip simply left off (say, make 2000,
then let the boards pass the station where the Amiga roms were added without
stopping for that feature for another 350 boards to be sold for use with
other OSes). On a modern production line boards with various options enabled
or dissabled are done all the time. You just have a board with some un-used
leads and solder-pads. Actually, it is even possible that they could make
available the option of adding the Amiga rom later when a customer desides
to buy Amiga OS. Of course, it would be more expensive to do later, but
cheaper than buying a whole new board. Amiga have shown themselves to be
flexible in accomidating the purchasers of previous PPC cards, and I immagin
they will also allow upgradeing of Amiga-One spec boards to support Amiga by
selling the rom with a copy of Amiga O.S. if Eyetech wish to make that
provision available. I bet they would also do the same for Pegasus if
B-plan would be willing to cooperate. But Amiga cannot spend the time and
resources to try and support just any board that happens to be available.
That would quickly make Amiga O.S. unprofitable. So they must work with
those hardware manufacturers who are willing to allow Amiga to make a profit
by cooperating with them so that they don't have to spend all their money
trying to write drivers for any old odd stuff a manufacturer may care to make.
What it boils down to is this... An O.S. maker cannot afford to support
many various standards. Even Microsoft expects the motherbord makers to
support thier standards if they wish for Windows to run on their MoBos.
They make no attempt to modify Windows to run on unsupported hardware
because that would be unprofitable. The same is true for any other for-profit
O.S. maker. So any manufacturer who will not support the standards detailed
by the O.S. maker can just expect to make no sales to that market. Someone
mentioned that x86 MoBo makers just did as they pleased and windows supported
them all. That person knows NOTHING about the industry. Microsoft dictates
nearly EVERYTHING about motherboards expecting to support Windows, for the
purpose of insuring compatability and also to insure their market. Apple
simply doesn't allow other manufacturers to participate in the Mac market.
Any other O.S. like lynux has to just deal with it. Amiga have the right
to form thier own platform in a way which they believe will be profitable.
Bplan has the right to do that with their platform as well, it just isn't
Amiga then which is O.K. Obviously Bplan has decided that their pegasos
will be a MorphOS motherboard rather than an Amiga motherboard. That is
O.K. They have decided to try to compete with Amiga for market share.
That is O.K. also. But just don't expect Amiga to try to support the
MorphOS platform, which are their competitors.
Donovan Reeve (bubby@inebraska.com) |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 235 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Björn Hagström on 07-Jun-2002 19:22 GMT | In reply to Comment 173 (Tbone):
Consider this regardless of whether any of us two knows what it means:
1. Choose to paint the devil on AInc/Hyperion based on a sentence that can be interpretated in any number of ways.
2. Choose the most resonable interpretation, listen to what Ainc/Hyperios says in forums and realise that what you have read is not the real license agreement.
You choosed 1 automatically. A filosofical choice to always expect the bad in all and everything? Blind hate towards AInc/Hyperion? What do I know.
/Björn |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 236 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Björn Hagström on 07-Jun-2002 19:23 GMT | In reply to Comment 183 (Marcus Sundman):
Removing the pirate protection does not equal "Runs on ppc platform XYZ".
/Björn |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 237 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Björn Hagström on 07-Jun-2002 19:28 GMT | In reply to Comment 191 (Tbone):
Just of general interrest, point me to the information where it says that the Barbie guys have discussed the real license and the real terms behind it, not just the public message put out by AInc or some misinformed information sent to them for the community.
As we all can see by Hyperions messages here, the license is far more open than a lot of people here would like it to be.
/Björn |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 238 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Marcus Sundman on 07-Jun-2002 19:30 GMT | In reply to Comment 236 (Björn Hagström):
> Removing the pirate protection does not equal "Runs on ppc platform XYZ"
No, but perhaps removing the protection equals "Runs on all POP boards and not just the AmigaOne POP board". |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 239 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Björn Hagström on 07-Jun-2002 19:33 GMT | In reply to Comment 238 (Marcus Sundman):
No it does not equal that either.
/Björn |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 240 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Donovan Reeve on 07-Jun-2002 19:40 GMT | In reply to Comment 197 (Tbone):
What you are saying is as unrealistic as you believe Amiga are being.
No O.S. maker can chase varying motherboard standards. This would bloat
the O.S. greatly and be an endless money pit. All motherboards are made
to fit the platform. All platforms are defined by the O.S. Any motherboard
maker which is unwilling to commit themselves to following the rules of a
platform is, by definition, not making a motherboard for that platform.
If a motherboard maker is trying to make a MoBo to support more than one
platform they are foolish and opening themselves a real can of worms.
Therefor they will not do that. But the same is true for O.S. makers.
They would be foolish to try to adapt their O.S. to many motherboards not
intended for it, so they will not do that either. It cannot be profitable.
Therefore, the only workable way is for standards to be made by either an
O.S. maker or a hardware maker, thus defining a platform, and making legally
binding agreements with other partys to participate in that platform according
to the rules. This is called liscensing, and may be either free or for a
price as the platform owner sees fit. Amiga own the platform called Amiga
because they own the Amiga name and are in the continuing process of defining
the Amiga platform. If anyone else wants to do something different then they
must start their own platform, which cannot be said to be Amiga because it
isn't due to not being owned and defined by Amiga. Any company which is NOT
part of Amiga has absolutely NO say-so in the Amiga platform accept to suggest
what they would like to see happen. Other than suggesting changes, those
participating in another companys platform must toe the line or leave,
otherwise their would be a mess. In the years that Amiga was in limbo,
Phase 5 started a drive in the direction they thought the Amiga platform
should go (with them leading the way and reaping the major profits of course)
But Amiga (who had after all paid a lot of money for the rights to the
Amiga name and platform) naturally wanted to make their own plans for their
own business an profit from it themselves rather than lose their huge
investment. (This was first Gateway, then later Amino which was renamed
Amiga. Some of those from Phase5 got together with others to continue their
own plans and the whole thing sort of "morphed" into what became MorphOS,
with related hardware maker BPlan also on board. Now they essentually have
their own platform which they believe is better than Amiga. That's fine.
But it is not Amiga, and may not say that it is. BPlan, of whom MorphOS
originater Ralph Schmidt is a part, has decided to support and push MorphOS
rather than Amiga. That's fine also, but their hardware is now (by their own
choice) part of the MorphOS platform and not the Amiga platform. If they
wish to also make hardware liscensed for the Amiga platform they can if they
will, but so far they aren't interested. They are understandably concentrating
on supporting their own platform.
It's TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT PLATFORMS. Thats the bottom line. Users may
choose to buy equiptment for one or the other or both and/or any other
platforms they wish to use. Amiga has laid down the rules for their platform
for their own reasons having to do with making a living, and BPlan has so far
chosen not to build for that platform, a perfectly understandable choice as
they also want to make a living with their OWN MorphOS platform.
Donovan Reeve (bubby@inebraska.com) |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 241 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Marcus Sundman on 07-Jun-2002 19:49 GMT | In reply to Comment 239 (Björn Hagström):
> No it does not equal that either.
Actually it doesn't matter. What matters is that it runs on _my_ board, and if the only reason why it's not running on my board is that my board doesn't have a dongle then removing the pirate protection _will_ imply "runs on my POP board".
AFAIK (although I really don't) AmigaOne conforms to the POP standard, and I don't believe Ainc/Hyperion/whoever want to go very far from the standard or they might end up where commodore did. Hence OS4 should run on POP boards. |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 242 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Marcus Sundman on 07-Jun-2002 20:04 GMT | In reply to Comment 240 (Donovan Reeve):
> No O.S. maker can chase varying motherboard standards.
This is not true, but let's not go there.
No one is asking Ainc/Hyperion to chase anything. AFAIK they already conform to the POP standard (if this is not the case then please correct me). If they conform to the POP standard then they should be compatible with standard POP boards, right? The problem is that although OS4 is technically compatible with some boards it still won't run (unmodified) on those boards simply because Ainc won't sell OS4 separately.
I believe that selling OS4 separately _and_ with all licensed boards would result in more copies of OS4 being sold than if OS4 is sold _only_ with licensed boards. I also think that if OS4 is available for purchase then people might not be as eager to crack it and distribute it illegally.
(It does not matter if Ainc/Hyperion says that OS4 can't be run on some specific POP board. People still want to try it. Why do you think those linux people make linux work on all weird hardware? It's not like they would use linux on a cash register or something. They just want to prove that it works on it. If linux was made available for the cash register from the start then noone would be interested in making his own version to run on one.
This is not a very good example, but the basic principle still holds.) |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 243 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Donovan Reeve on 07-Jun-2002 20:06 GMT | In reply to Comment 217 (David S Lund):
"(I'd like to buy a car, but I want the freedom to choose not to by gas.)"
Actually, it's more like this:
I'd like to buy a Ferrari, but I want them to change their cars so that
cheap Volkswagen parts will fit.
;)
Donovan Reeve (bubby@inebraska.com) |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 244 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Donovan Reeve on 07-Jun-2002 20:21 GMT | In reply to Comment 222 (amigammc):
"That means there was nobody left who owned Amiga,"
Not to flame you, just some information.
There is no such thing as anything not being owned unless the owners have
put it in the public domain. When Escom collapsed, their properties both
physical and intelectual then belonged to their creditors (those who they
owed money to). Those people/companies then had to wait for a court-appointed
reciever to sell the properties to try and get some of the money Escom had
owed them. So the Amiga properties were NOT in the public domain.
Of course all of this has nothing to do with Dave Haynie, who most
certainly was/is NOT a pirate. Far from it. He is an honest guy and a very
nice guy,! I know, because he was very helpful to me a couple of times.
Of course, the writer of that comment was apparently making a joke. I don't
think he meant to seriously say that Dave was a pirate.
Donovan Reeve (bubby@inebraska.com) |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 245 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jun-2002 20:27 GMT | In reply to Comment 243 (Donovan Reeve):
> "(I'd like to buy a car, but I want the freedom to choose not to by gas.)"
>
> Actually, it's more like this:
>
> I'd like to buy a Ferrari, but I want them to change their cars so that
> cheap Volkswagen parts will fit.
Actually, it's more like this:
I want to be able to buy Ferrari spare parts even though I don't own a true Ferrari. |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 246 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Donovan Reeve on 07-Jun-2002 20:41 GMT | In reply to Comment 227 (Marcus Sundman):
Yes, I believe that would be a good solution. Sell the O.S. with a dongle
for retro-fitting to unliscensed motherboards, but be sure to include a
PROMINATE disclaimer in the package that the use of it on unliscensed and
unsuported boards is just that...UNSUPPORTED. Thus, if the user cares to
experiment with getting AmigaOS to run on other hardware they may, but they
will have to figure it out on their own. This could start a whole new group
of Amiga-savy people who would could become Amiga developers.
Dear Amiga:
Liscense motherboards with a rom extension and gaurantee their compatability,
but also sell AmigaOS with a dongle for those who buy other boards and are
willing to take the risk of no support. If they find some which work, you
gain an increased user-base. If they don't find any which can be made to
work then they will still have to buy a liscensed board if they wish to
have a new Amiga.
Personally, I just wish AmigaOS4 would hurry and get available so I can
spend my hard-earned cash on it and an Eye-Tech board.
I WANNA NEW AMIGA!!! :)
Donovan Reeve (bubby@inebraska.com) |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 247 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by TimeWillTell on 07-Jun-2002 21:05 GMT | In reply to Comment 241 (Marcus Sundman):
Marcus
Would you be so kind as to tell us what POP board you have? Because up to
this point, I didn't know of any others available.
Thank you Tom Eitel |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 248 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Donovan Reeve on 07-Jun-2002 21:08 GMT | In reply to Comment 242 (Marcus Sundman):
I meant that it may not be profitable, not that it couldn't be done.
I agree that it would be nice to have as wide a hardware base as
possible, but it is possible that they don't want to permanantly tie
themselves to the POP standard because it may not be headed where they
want to go. It's also possible though that if enough people nicely
suggest a different tactic to them that they may consider it. They
may see that a potentially wider customer base might outweigh the
piracy issue.
Donovan Reeve (bubby@inebraska.com) |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 249 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 07-Jun-2002 21:12 GMT | Just one question to everybody...
What kind of piracy is this licence scheme supposed to prevent?
OS4 will be shipped as an OEM product with AmigaONE boards.
That version possibly won't run on PowerUP boards and surely not
on the Pegasos. Where are those so called pirates supposed to run
the pirated OS4 on? On AmigaONEs which already got OS4.
No ROM extensions no nothing.
Just selling an AmigaONE specific OS4 as an OEM product is enough... |
|
| AmigaOS + POP/PPC petition official web site : Comment 250 of 280 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Marcus Sundman on 07-Jun-2002 22:20 GMT | In reply to Comment 247 (TimeWillTell):
> Would you be so kind as to tell us what POP board you have?
Yes. None. |
|
|
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