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[News] Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC +ANN.lu
Posted on 17-Sep-2002 17:02 GMT by ID4 -tHe SuRvIvOr -38 comments
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Hummm see , I only hope that this card can run AmigaOS4 :D . Hummm see , I only hope that this card can run AmigaOS4 :D .
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 1 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Lando / Trinity on 17-Sep-2002 15:22 GMT
That online shop is new isnt it? Some very nice prices too (at least compared to what we pay for Elbox products here in UK... I guess Germany is cheaper). the SharkPPC+ looks like its gonna be a real killer product for those who want to run OS4 but keep 100% backwards compatibility with "real" Amigas too. And the standard SharkPPC at 299EUR is cheaper than a old BlizzardPPC603e is selling for right now (in fact less than half the price some places are charging for a 268Mhz BPPC).
I'm sure both boards will run OS4.0. Mr Dulian already promised this to Mediator users many times and Elbox is one Amiga company you don't see letting their customers down (unlike a certain other who's name I wont mention).
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 2 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Michal Bergseth on 17-Sep-2002 15:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Lando / Trinity):
I fully agree with you. Elbox is the best Amiga company so far. Delivering stuff. They've done things in the past, but Elbox delivers support to their customers atleast.
Good work Elbox! Viva ElboxAmiga :)
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 3 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 17-Sep-2002 16:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Lando / Trinity):
Hello there Lando! Long time no IRC... :)
Anyway, those prices are amazing if they stick to them! The equivalent of £290 for a SharkPPC+?! Gimme gimme gimme!
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 4 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 17-Sep-2002 16:25 GMT
elbox .. thats one amiga company i'd trust with vast amounts of money :)
anyone know if you can run multiple sharks in the same busboard ( mediator (?) ) , OS4 Cluster :)
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 5 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by tinman on 17-Sep-2002 16:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (cOrpse):
You can put them in the box but it would be more like a clusterf**k ;)
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 6 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by cOrpse on 17-Sep-2002 18:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (tinman):
wouldn't mind , macos(mol) , linux and amigaOS all in the same box , at the same time tho ... thats it the shark gets a linux port tho :\
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 7 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 17-Sep-2002 18:13 GMT
Nice! But I miss integrated networking and firewire (especially the networking), but I guess one shouldn't ask for too much at one time ...
BTW, would it be technically possible to run this in a x86 system in some way?
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 8 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 17-Sep-2002 18:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (cOrpse):
Does OS4 support distributed computing/multi processing? I know a competing OS that does, but I didn't know that OS4 did ...?
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 9 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by .john on 17-Sep-2002 19:04 GMT
Cluster...hmmm...Renderfarm...
1x Pegasos with G3600 EUR
3x SharkPPC with G33x 300 EUR
equals to 1500 EUR for a quadro CPU system along with mobo !
And PCI is faster than Gigabit Ethernet !
And when we see the dual G4 card for Pegasos we can buy three G4 Sharks, getting a
supercomputer for less than 2500 EUR.
I wonder if they will render faster then than my P4@3.3GHz with RDRAM I will have by then ;-)
But this might be very nice for hardcore gfx users, who are satisfied with Linux
and MorphOS apps....doh!
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 10 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by José on 17-Sep-2002 19:20 GMT
Will it have an upgradable CPU board? If so it's tempting, I mean all those real Amigan's will want to keep classic compatibility.
Now Elbox, what about a version for the A4000D desktop:)
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 11 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Troels E on 17-Sep-2002 19:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (takemehomegrandma):
(@Takemehomegrandma, nice to see a constructive post from you ;)
"BTW, would it be technically possible to run this in a x86 system in some way?"
Had the same thought.
Bundle the card with OS4 (or MOS as you would probably suggest:) and sell it to PC users who would like to give the Amiga a second chance. Don't know if it's technically possible???
Anyone who knows if it's possible?
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 12 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 18-Sep-2002 00:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Lando / Trinity):
I'd like to think that OS 4 will run on the shark. Too bad we can't get any confirmation about it. Elbox is a fine engineering firm.....some of their business practices are a little weird. Why on earth would they not send a shark to hyperion so they could insure OS 4 will support it?
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 13 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Sep-2002 00:40 GMT
Will they be selling them at the December fair?
I wonder why they list the 7450 since there have been 7451 and 7455 meanwhile.
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 14 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Sep-2002 00:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (coldfire):
>Elbox is a fine engineering firm....
From what we know they took a IBM standard PCI PPC board similar to the Sonnet Crescendo one and put a CPC710-133 on it. This has not been confirmed by witnesses, though. We have no clue if it runs already - LinuxPPC would be interesting for some (and for running MOL).
>Why on earth would they not send a shark to hyperion so they could insure OS 4 will support it?
There is no picture of SharkPPC+ so I assume it does not exist yet (didn´t the original specs call for AGP4X?). As for the normal SharkPPC...who knows?
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 15 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 18-Sep-2002 05:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Anonymous):
Picture(s):
http://www.amitopia.tk/
and
http://buy.elbox.com/cgibin/shop?info=350S1G&sid=65550fb4
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 16 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 18-Sep-2002 05:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (priest):
Oh, forget that, you meant the "+" model...
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 17 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Mikey C on 18-Sep-2002 07:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (coldfire):
Well it won't Here is what Ben Harmans has said about this today on Amiga.org
"Before we can make any statements regarding 0S 4 support for the SharkPPC, we first need the hardware and the associated documentation.
We have neither at the moment nor any indication from Elbox when we can expect to receive it.
Now it's conceivable that Elbox came up with some kind of WarpOS compatibility software but if they did, I'm not aware of it."
And..
"Sticking a PPC card into a PCI slot which then takes over the entire system is not a trivial affaire.
Especially not on the A1200 version of the Mediator where all kinds of work-arounds are required to get it to work through an 8MB window.
We really would first need to see the documentation and the hardware before we can make any statements about this".
Source.
http://amiga.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1053
Mikey C
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 18 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Sep-2002 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Mikey C):
Exactly.
Without OS SharkPPC doesn't work, and the development of AmigaOS4 for SharkPPC has not been started (Ben Hermans said) and will be very complex...
And what future for SharkPPC ? No future : there are no more productions of A1200 and A4000 motherboards, they are not available too (only in second hand).
That's only a commercial promotion for Elbox to sell more Mediators before other real true Pegasos/AmigaOne machines for the future. When Pegasos and/or AmigaOne will be available, what future for Elbox and their Mediators ?...
Yes, Elbox are very good in business ;)
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 19 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 18-Sep-2002 09:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Mikey C):
A WarpOS driver cannot be made. The PPC and 68k must share the same address
space. This doesn't happen on the mediator.
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 20 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by José on 18-Sep-2002 10:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Anonymous):
"And what future for SharkPPC ? No future : there are no more productions of A1200 and A4000 motherboards, they are not available too (only in second hand).
That's only a commercial promotion for Elbox to sell more Mediators before other real true Pegasos/AmigaOne machines for the future. When Pegasos and/or AmigaOne will be available, what future for Elbox and their Mediators ?... "
The fact that you're anonymous raises some suspicion. In fact that is not true at all. The SharkPPC+ is to work by itself without a Classic motherboard at all. I remember reading this, maybe even here on ANN. Besides, to all those people that have specially upgraded A4000's with repulse soundcards, VLab etc. a PPC would be very applyable.
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 21 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Sep-2002 13:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (José):
"The SharkPPC+ is to work by itself without a Classic motherboard at all."
???
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 22 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Alfred Schwarz on 18-Sep-2002 13:32 GMT
I wonder what the cards are good for, it seems there's no software running on it...
If you want to sell hardware running OS4 you have to sell the hardware bundled with OS4 (that's clearly written on amiga.com) but Elbox doesn't mention OS4 or WarpOS or MOS or whatever they will run on.
I wouldn't wonder if they will sell another special OS-Enable-CD for the SharkPPC just to ripp off their customers a little bit more.
Don't get me wrong, I think Elbox is making great hardware but their driver policy is IMHO just a ripp off (as the latest great USB deal shows again, right after the P96 story and the MMCD).
Ciao, Alfred
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 23 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by tinman on 18-Sep-2002 17:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Anonymous):
Elbox has said on a number of occaisions that you can take a Mediator board, stick a Shark in it along with whatever other cards are required (gfx, ide?, netowrk, etc), remove the classic Amiga motherboard and you can run it as a standalone system.
It would make their software easier as they do not need to faff with memory windows or any nonsense. They have already shown with their DMA to graphics card memory that the PCI side of the Mediator would support it.
Of course, as has been said, you still need an OS :)
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 24 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 18-Sep-2002 19:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (tinman):
Well if they don't need the classic amiga mobo then why not just make their own mobo? I'd guess that'd be easy enough then. :)
coldfire
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 25 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Rob on 18-Sep-2002 22:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Alfred Schwarz):
Of course, its not like the Spider USB is half the price of a Highway
or Subway card is it.
Personally I think Elbox's MMCD drivers are worth every pound I paid
for them.
You say that drivers like these should come free with hardware because
MS Windows drivers are free.
Have you bitched at Irseesoft for charging for their excellent
TurboPrint package. Perhaps its time to pick on IOspirit for actually
expecting people to pay for their scanner and digital camera software.
If you wan't quality drivers then its best to have them written by
proffesional programmers. Elbox has invested a lot of time and money
in bringing quality products to the Amiga. If they don't charge money
for their products then they won't be able to support the users.
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 26 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Sep-2002 03:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (.john):
Amiga DE / Intent can run on ordinary PC + PowerPC PCI Co-processor card (from YARC and TotalImpact). I hope they can port Amiga DE to SharkPPC+.
AmigaDE also support multiple Co-processor PCI cards inside a single PC, as long as the PCI card support this feature.
If AmigaDE support SharkPPC+, AmigaDE is intergrated into AmigaOS 4.2, and SharkPPC+ can be installed inside AmigaONE, then it is possible to build cluster/rendering farm based on AmigaOne + AmigaOS 4.2 + SharkPPC+ cards.
I hope they will release SharkPPC+ version based on the upcoming IBM POWER4 + PowerPC combo CPU (perhaps 2 GHz - October 2002).
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 27 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Sep-2002 05:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Anonymous):
:)))))
Stop to smoke guy ! ;))
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 28 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Sep-2002 06:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (tinman):
> Elbox has said on a number of occaisions that you can take a Mediator board,
> stick a Shark in it along with whatever other cards are required (gfx, ide?,
> netowrk, etc), remove the classic Amiga motherboard and you can run it as a
> standalone system.
The theory is fun, but the reality is an other thing ;)
And I think that Mediator will need always a classic Amiga motherboard to run, because Mediator has been designed especially for classic Amiga motherboards...
> It would make their software easier as they do not need to faff with memory
> windows or any nonsense. They have already shown with their DMA to graphics
> card memory that the PCI side of the Mediator would support it.
There is an other problem : the performances/results of Mediator are very bad. Mediator is very slow. How can Mediator supports a SharkPPC with G3/G4 and GHz...
> Of course, as has been said, you still need an OS :)
Exactly ;)
No OS, no SharkPPC ;)
The Mediator is available for 2 years now, and Elbox has announced the SharkPPC for the consumers for 1.5 years, of course always delayed, month by month.
Elbox has nothing (OS, soft,...) to run a SharkPPC on the Mediator, and they aren't able to develop it (otherwise SharkPPC would be available for many months now). Develop drivers for gfx/sound/TV/ethernet PCI cards is not the same thing than to develop the system for a SharkPPC.
And of course SharkPPC exists, but Elbox has nothing designed for this card. These cards (PPC on PCI) exist (on Mac, PC) for a long time... ;)
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 29 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 19-Sep-2002 06:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Anonymous):
> There is an other problem : the performances/results of Mediator are very bad. Mediator is very slow. How can Mediator supports a SharkPPC with G3/G4 and GHz...
The performance is very bad? DMA between PCI devices is pretty fast, and supposed to be twice as fast when the Shark is present. The only slow transfers are between PCI devices and the Amiga motherboard. This would become a total non-issue if OS4 is running on the Shark (access to the motherboard would only be for legacy applications, and access to Zorro cards which are designed for a slower bus anyway).
With your RAM, CPU, video card and storage all on the PCI side of the mediator, you'll have a very fast system indeed, but one which still has an AGA (or ECS on the 3000) chipset for legacy apps, Zorro slots (on 3000 or 4000) for Amiga cards (and some of them are still pretty useful, like the Video toaster, VLab Motion, Repulse, etc.)
I suggest you go back and read the specs for PCI to PCI DMA on the mediator.
Oh, and your forgetting that with the SharkPPC+, UDMA IDE, USB, and sound are all available on a local bus, so potentially even faster again (just like cyberstorm SCSI is VERY fast because its right near the processor and RAM and doesn't have to go through the Amiga motherboard).
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 30 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Crumb // AAT on 19-Sep-2002 06:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
They may boot from the 68k and give all the control to the shark (for example after a reset) and use 68k emulation in the ppc so the memory space would be shared. Anyway running all the 68k code by emulation would slow down a lot the system. There's not much sense in releasing it before OS4 is completed. I don't think Elbox would pay H&P for a licence of their interpretative 68k emulator, and making a new emulator may need too much effort. It is not clear if SharkPPC will see the light, but if it does... it won't be before OS4.
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 31 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Alfred Schwarz on 19-Sep-2002 11:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Rob):
No, I DON'T say drivers should be free because drivers in Windows are "free".
I know the Amiga market and I'm spending money for software, drivers etc.
The ripp off in the USB-deal is:
You have to buy Mediator (OK)
You have to buy MMCD (I never got into this MMCD thing, the adverts of Elbox always sounded like drivers will be free) to get *unregistered* Poseidon (USB-Stack, which is needed for using USB) (NOT OK)
You have to buy the Spider card from Elbox to get the USB driver that works with Poseidon (OK)
You have to register Poseidon to make the USB card useable (NOT OK)
It should be:
Buy Mediator
Buy Spider card from Elbox (including everything is needed to use the card)
So Elbox is selling a "special" USB card for use in Mediator that is useless until you register the USB stack; there's a statement from the Poseidon author on the Mediator list that he's also not very pleased with Elbox, he thought the driver should be for standard USB cards, not for a "special one".
And about the Turboprint thing: I've seen many Amiga dealers that sell printers bundled with Turboprint, feel free to ask me for examples.
Ciao, Alfred
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 32 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Sep-2002 15:12 GMT
ALL: and you think really that OS4 (when it will be finished) will run on Mediator/SharkPPC without change and updates ? certainly not, and the problems will begin, you will see...
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 33 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 19-Sep-2002 18:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Crumb // AAT):
Huh? Then they wouldn't use WarpOS, they would use a PPC OS with 68k emulation,
like AOS4 or MorphOS. I don't know about the blackbox stuff from H&P though.
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 34 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by MH on 19-Sep-2002 19:48 GMT
Another theory:
Recent OS4 info said that CSPPC and BPPC cards would still need to use
a 68k bootloader to get the system going. Maybe the Shark does something
similar?
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 35 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 20-Sep-2002 02:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (coldfire):
Because Os4 deosnt truly support Amiga. It isnt Amiga .There wouldn't be this discussion if that wasnt true .It will run with Morphos though.
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 36 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 20-Sep-2002 02:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (coldfire):
tinman is out of his rocker for saying that. It relies on the Amiga motherboard. "Replacing" the lower end cpu as before.
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 37 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 20-Sep-2002 02:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Rob):
drivers smivers -see the pc world got in amiga -this aint amiga anymore- commodites and datatyoes that is amiga and they are better.
Elbox ONLINE-SHOP SharkPPC + : Comment 38 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Phill on 20-Sep-2002 07:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Mikey C):
> Especially not on the A1200 version of the Mediator where all kinds of
> work-arounds are required to get it to work through an 8MB window.
This is FUD. The 8mb window should not be an issue, it's only for amiga accelerators as the a1200 expansion connector has this limitation.
Anything on the PCI bus can access the whole address range without any hassles.
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