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[News] Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone AgainANN.lu
Posted on 24-Sep-2002 09:59 GMT by Bob43 comments
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Sendo to use Insignia Java as well as Tao Intent. Operators to be offered choice of which one they want. Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again
http://www.sendo.com/news/newsitem.asp?ID=60

Sendo Holdings Ltd will offer operators a choice of mobile Java environments on its Z100 smart phone after sealing a deal with Insignia Solutions Inc to port its Insignia Mobile Foundation software to the much anticipated device.

However, Birmingham, UK-based Sendo looks set to push back the Z100's introduction to the end of the year, after failing again to meet its planned autumn launch.

Sendo's deal with Fremont, California-based Insignia breaks the stranglehold that Reading, UK-based Tao Group Ltd had seemingly engineered to supply Java 2 Micro Edition (J2ME) technology on the first commercial device to be powered by Microsoft's Windows Powered Smartphone 2002 handset platform.

A spokesperson for Insignia said that Sendo has not redesigned its Z100 exclusively around Insignia's platform. Rather, Sendo will now offer both the Insignia and Tao J2ME environments depending on operator requirements.

But the move could yet limit Tao's ambitions to supply its Intent platform - in which J2ME is a part - on Microsoft-powered, or for that matter non-Microsoft-powered, smart phones.

Insignia's platform is already the virtual de facto standard JVM on Microsoft Pocket PC-based PDAs, following a deal to supply technology on Hewlett-Packard's (nee Compaq's) iPaq range, suggesting that company's software could now become the preferred Java platform for Smartphones based on Texas Instruments' OMAP chipset. Insignia announced in March that it was working to port its J2ME environment to OMAP.

Either way, the move is an interesting new twist in the ongoing saga of the Z100, which has suffered multiple delays since it was first announced. Sendo told ComputerWire in July that it was confident of bringing the device to market by September or October this year. The Insignia spokesperson suggested the end of the year is now a more likely target.

Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 1 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.196.60) on 24-Sep-2002 08:51 GMT
Ah well.. I hope AmigaInc some day learn to announce only products that are real. IMHO this is getting quite boring, this pattern repeats way too often.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 2 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett (212.159.188.92) on 24-Sep-2002 10:27 GMT
I think it's time to re-evaluate TAO's ability to capture and hold any sort of market whatsoever. Since Amiga Inc are limited to riding TAO's coat-tails, the performance of TAO in attracting committed interest is crucial, and the pattern developing at the moment is alarming. What's the betting that when Sendo do eventually ship, it will be with Insignia Java as default, and TAO's J2ME as an option, possibly to be made available at some unspecified future time - as seems to be the case with the Sharp Zaurus.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 3 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Francis Charig (63.12.66.42) on 24-Sep-2002 10:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (JoannaK):
This has nothing to do with the Amiga announcement as Amiga's content has nothing whatsoever to do with the Java component of intent. Amiga has games written to the intent Virtual Processor that will run on the platform whatever the Java engine being supplied. Example games running on intent but not running on Java are on display on the OCPA ("Open Contents Platform Association") stand at JavaOne Japan. As you may be aware, the OCPA has ratified intent as its standard content platform, the OCPA being supported by companies such as Intel, TI, Hitachi, MontaVista, Kyocera, JVC, Sharp, Sanyo, Fujitsu, Sony, Pioneer etc. etc.
The demonstration will show intent Java content as well on the Sendo platform. We are perfectly happy for multiple platforms to exist. The networks want the ability to deliver content that consumers will pay for. The substantial performance difference of intent is being measured by customer after customer. Side-by-side comparisons are always extraordinarily helpful to Tao.
Note the Sharp announcement some months ago regarding intents future availability on the Zaurus including the quote in Nikkei on March 11th that intent was up to 10 times faster than its nearest competitor. This is consistent with the findings of the market.
Bill Hoggett is welcome to evaluate the current market position as suggested in his subsequent message, given the activities of the OCPA, and announcements and availability of cameras, handsets, PVRs, STBs and many other devices with support from many of the world's leading semiconductor companies. The new generation of handsets that use intent as the platform are truly beyond anything the market has seen before, meeting the demands and expectations of networks and consumers alike. The Kyocera Pocket Cosmo is the 1st of its kind to hit the market, more of the handsets that take us all on a few stages are in the pipeline.
Best regards
Francis Charig
Chairman & CEO, Tao Group
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 4 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by dakang (212.136.66.9) on 24-Sep-2002 12:46 GMT
respect! :)
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 5 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (168.143.113.132) on 24-Sep-2002 13:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Francis Charig):
Francis,
Thank you for the insight. We appreciate it. Would you please clarify these issues, if possible?
- Why did Sendo choose Insignia as an option? If TAO's product is so much superior, why the need for choice? Price? Size?
- So, intent is the stanards for OCPA. Cool. How does AmigaDE fit into that? intent seems to be going to places, but what about the thing they call AmigaDE?
- Meanwhile Nokia and a bunch of other companies are already shipping Java phones. Could you comment as to what makes intent superior to Java as a development platform? (I know intent can do Java, but why would someone write VP instead of Java?)
Thanks for participating here!
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 6 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by YouKnowWho (203.166.96.234) on 24-Sep-2002 14:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Francis Charig):
Hi
Is this another AMIGA Curse?
Apparently all companies, financial groups, and products related to Amiga will fail.
Questions:
Is there any benchmark program and result that compare Insignia JVM and TAO JVM? What about comparison with "Java compiler" to native CPU binaries?
Is AmigaDE/Intent will be ported to AmigOS 3.9 on Classic Amiga 68K? This will provide a "bridge" between classic Amiga and AmigaOne. It may also help in future options (ie X86, Power4.. Amiga?).
Is there any plan to port AmigaDE/Intent to PowerPC Linux running on top of Amiga One hardware?
What about device intergration between various hardware running AmigaDE / Intent, such as PC + AmigaOne + PDA etc. Is it possible to use Asymmetric Multi Processing capability?
Thanks.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 7 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (152.78.65.102) on 24-Sep-2002 14:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Francis Charig):
Much too busy to debunk Tao line for line, so just one quick comment
"The new generation of handsets that use intent as the platform are truly beyond anything the market has seen before"
There is no substance to this statement at all. It's true of every new generation of everything across most tech industries.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 8 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Francis Charig (63.12.66.161) on 24-Sep-2002 15:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
- Why did Sendo choose Insignia as an option? If TAO's product is so much superior, why the need for choice? Price? Size?
It is the Sendo philosophy to present choice. They've been quite clear about this throughout so I don't think this is quite the issue that it is presented as in the sorely inaccurate article that led to this correspondence. Sendo's selection criteria is really a difficult area for me to get on to in public like this. All I would encourage everyone to do is do comparisons between the options and come to your own conclusions. :)
- So, intent is the stanards for OCPA. Cool. How does AmigaDE fit into that? intent seems to be going to places, but what about the thing they call AmigaDE?
I cannot comment again on AmigaDE. I've always been careful to avoid doing that as I see this as Bill McEwen's domain and he should lead this.
- Meanwhile Nokia and a bunch of other companies are already shipping Java phones. Could you comment as to what makes intent superior to Java as a development platform? (I know intent can do Java, but why would someone write VP instead of Java?)
If you don't mind, I'd like to re-phrase the question. (This reminds me of the former British Chancellor of the Exchequer, Denis Healey. When asked a question he didn't like, he would say, "Let me re-phrase your question for you", and would then ask himself the very question he wanted to ask, usually something entirely different and on a totally different subject before launching himself unstoppably into the answer. Others have tried, nobody was better. As the previous message stated, "respect". :))
Why use the intent VM instead of the Java VM?
A lot of content in the market place, especially the bulk of the games market, is written in C. Getting that into a binary portable format would be a great way to deliver a lot of the existing games content to disparate devices across networks. This is a significant point. The volume of Java content is still severely outweighed by the volume of C-based content.
C also has the advantage of being closer to the hardware than Java, as is assembler, thereby enabling higher performance multimedia than would be possible with applications written in Java. However, this has to be outweighed against the productivity advantages of Java. But networks looking for revenue right now would probably argue that content that doesn't deliver revenue is a problem, irrespective of productivity.
So, having the ability to compile C, C++ and Java to the intent VP gives binary portable content and with identical behavioural characteristics across any intent platform, irrespective of hardware and operating system.
There are also people out there who do want to write games in assembler and the intent platform gives them that combined with portability and no compromise on performance.
Of course, if one selects intent, one still has the advantage of massive performance advantages when running real-world content written in Java. So there is the fastest Java plus all the non-Java benefits as well.
- Thanks for participating here!
As they say in Japan, "Do itashimashite".
Best regards
Francis
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 9 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz (64.252.195.177) on 24-Sep-2002 15:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Francis Charig):
[Started typing this before the other replies came in; figured I'd submit it anyhow. Seems to be what everyone's wondering.]
What Java runtime does the XDA ship with? Could Sendo be feeling a threat there? (It's obvious they've been rectocephalically inverted with the Z100, but it seemed like they were finally getting ready to pull out and launch, before this...)
Is there a list of OCPA products out anywhere, or are most still in the design/prerelease stage? JVC has the camera, Kyocera has Cosmo... and that's all I've been able to find out. Zaurus eventually, of course, fingers-crossed.
Let me note here that Tao's redesign looks quite spiffy, but makes it much harder for the average visitor to find out what Elate/Intent actually is. It's been designed to address companies... but companies don't visit websites, people do... The whitepaper is on some links, but not others. Makes it quite hard to show others in the end-user-or-maybe-developer space (think Linux users, again) what's really being sold.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 10 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Francis Charig (63.12.66.161) on 24-Sep-2002 15:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (YouKnowWho):
Dear Mr Hamdani
>Is this another AMIGA Curse?
>Apparently all companies, financial groups, and
>products related to Amiga will fail.
:)
>Is there any benchmark program and result that
>compare Insignia JVM and TAO JVM? What about
>comparison with "Java compiler" to native CPU binaries?
Little Johnny is playing a Java game on his phone. Mother, "What do you think of the game, Johnny?" Johnny, "Not very good, but that's not a problem for me because the caffiene score's fantastic." This isn't the real world. :)
What is most important is an architecture that works and can run compelling content effectively. 'Compelling' means content people want _and will pay for_. Note the comments on the FastRAM press release a couple of months ago. They delivered benchmarks that reflected the kind of applications the markets want delivered to the consumer.
>Is AmigaDE/Intent will be ported to AmigOS 3.9 ...
Please ask Amiga.
>Is there any plan to port AmigaDE/Intent to PowerPC Linux
>running on top of Amiga One hardware?
Please ask Amiga.
Best regards
Francis
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 11 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Francis Charig (63.12.66.161) on 24-Sep-2002 15:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
You have asked: Is there a list of OCPA products out anywhere, or are most still in the design/prerelease stage? JVC has the camera, Kyocera has Cosmo... and that's all I've been able to find out. Zaurus eventually, of course, fingers-crossed.
JVC's product was released prior to the OCPA ratification although it does comply as do a number of other products for intent not designed through the OCPA. You will see the list growing shortly. I think there's another announcement in the next 24 hours or so of a consumer product and there were some announced in Japan last week that are now made using intent but where our technology has not yet been announced specifically. You'll see that updated shortly.
You then went on to state: Let me note here that Tao's redesign looks quite spiffy, but makes it much harder for the average visitor to find out what Elate/Intent actually is. It's been designed to address companies... but companies don't visit websites, people do... The whitepaper is on some links, but not others. Makes it quite hard to show others in the end-user-or-maybe-developer space (think Linux users, again) what's really being sold.
Thank you for the feedback. On the whole, the response has been exceptionally positive, especially from the companies. We are having to take on board various issues on perceived inconsistencies, however, most people have found the white paper relatively easily, but not all so this does need looking at, and the response to the content in that and on the site has been good. My first priority is to make sure, along with my colleagues, that the corporates who design the products, are accessing and understanding the site. Evidence to date is strongly in favour.
However, I will make sure that your comments are added to the list of constructive items as we seek to shore up any problems/concerns etc.
Best regards
Francis
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 12 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Francis Charig (63.12.66.161) on 24-Sep-2002 16:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
Hi Anonymous
>Much too busy to debunk Tao line for line, so just one quick comment
Sorry to hear about the overwork. What do you do? Perhaps you should do my job as it's just like having one big vacation. :)
>"The new generation of handsets that use intent as the platform are truly >beyond anything the market has seen before"
>There is no substance to this statement at all. It's true of every new >generation of everything across most tech industries.
There are incremental steps and, to use a 1980s phrase, there are quantum leaps. Most new generation products are incremental improvements.
Best regards
Francis
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 13 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Treke (62.80.71.114) on 24-Sep-2002 16:28 GMT
Hello Mr. Charig
I would suggest to not let yourself step into ANN-like debate, because when I did, my productivity at work was zero, the debate lead nowhere and I was a bit surprised by rude answers (usual flame wars and personal insults). Sad fact about ANN. (the good one is that the most info about amiga you can mine out only from here)
I'm writing it because, some 2 years ago, I was kindly surprised, when I wrote some silly questions to TAO's info mail and you (personally) replied to me immediatelly...
Now this thread will start to grow and ones will express their opinions with a strange approach...
regards
Treke
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 14 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Francis Charig (63.12.66.161) on 24-Sep-2002 16:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Treke):
Dear Treke
Thank you for your kind support. Given your advice I'd better bow out as gracefully as I can from the mail list. :) Anyway, it's 4am here in Japan and I haven't had a break for 21 hours so it's about time I got some sleep. As they say here in Japan, "oyasuminasai".
Best regards,
Francis
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 15 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.196.60) on 24-Sep-2002 16:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Francis Charig):
There are thousands of annoucements, co-operations, joint efforts etc, published each year and quite few of them actually bring anything up. So having yet another alliance does not make me exited. Deliveries count much more and on you product (especially when associated to AmigaInc and their AmigaDE/AmigaAnywere brand) has not IMHO shown much progress on last couple years...
I tested/used DE-sdk (aka intent/elate with Amiga logo on, Partypack-release + updates) myself last year... And due my own experiences I can well quess why these product release delays and switches to other Java brands have happened. I'm quite sure you have good idea too, so I don't need to spell it out. Especially not here.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 16 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini (64.69.103.129) on 24-Sep-2002 16:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Treke):
The quality of ANN depends on the quality of the information, the sense of the comments etc.
I'am very statisfied to have such quality comments from Francis and others in this thread. Maybe some people will learn from these posts an ANN will get more interesting information and less flames.
Thanks Francis, it is great to have your posts here.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 17 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma (62.131.178.212) on 24-Sep-2002 17:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Treke):
Yes Treke, you are probably right.
Beware Francis, trolls will find (The Moobunny board already has a link) your insightful comments and can quite suddenly turn a good discussion into a childish flamefest with personal attacks. ANN is for Amiga users comparable to what Slashdot is to Linux users. And people can troll anonymously here, unlike at for example Amiga.org
Keep up the good work though! :)
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 18 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp (213.166.60.61) on 24-Sep-2002 17:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Mike Bouma):
> ANN is for Amiga users comparable to what Slashdot is to Linux users
I'm not really sure. I read Slashdot on a semi-regular basis and there are common points, but then again there's only so many ways a "news" site can work. Overall I would say that both audiences are very different, not just in their beliefs but also in their behaviour.
> And people can troll anonymously here, unlike at for example Amiga.org
An email login system won't stop a determined troll. But I'm fairly sure that a lot of people won't post at sites that require authentication, because they don't want to go through the trouble of registering, or being easily authenticated. Which is one of the main reasons why I rarely, if ever, post on such sites.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 19 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp (213.166.60.61) on 24-Sep-2002 17:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Christophe Decanini):
I agree.
There's two ways to influence behaviour here on ANN: merely complain about the lack of quality postings, or do your best to create quality postings yourself. It's a shame that over the years, the former seems to have become predominant, and I'd really appreciate more postings from Francis or other people (that, and more constructive reactions from all others when people who may have access to real, tangible information do post).
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 20 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Francis Charig (63.12.66.183) on 24-Sep-2002 18:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (JoannaK):
Dear Joanna
Phone calls and other items and no time to get to bed. When I saw your reply I thought the very least it deserved was a reply. I never could resist...
>There are thousands of annoucements, co-operations, joint efforts etc, >published each year and quite few of them actually bring anything up. So >having yet another alliance does not make me exited. Deliveries count much >more and on you product (especially when associated to AmigaInc and their >AmigaDE/AmigaAnywere brand) has not IMHO shown much progress on last couple >years...
I think your first point is entirely reasonable given the hyping of the market that takes place everywhere one looks. Sometimes it is easy to get caught up in that hype to compete but we have tried very hard not to do that.
If you look at something like the Kyocera Pocket Cosmo PDA, then that is a complete PDA running the intent RTOS and a complete suite of middleware and applications. Its differentiators are the branded and intuitive look and feel, the performance and footprint (with consequential battery life advantages), the use of Java as the major applications language, etc.
With the Sendo Smartphone, the reliability of our software is excellent. The Java engine is extremely reliable and high performance, no other solution coming close to being able to deliver the kind of speed that we have successfully managed at Tao.
The JVC DVCs have been very successful in the market. The reputation that Tao has for first class software and support in its most established market, Japan, is very strong but we have been growing the success in European and US markets since we set up sales teams for those regions earlier this year. Tao is now penetrating into other territories as well. It takes time for the results to reach the market.
The next release of intent includes a lot of software never seen outside the major partnerships. I'm not prepared to pre-announce exactly what that is, please be patient as this wouldn't be an appropriate forum.
As I have explained, the OCPA has ratified intent APIs as its core specification.
In terms of generating product, partnerships, devices and so forth, Tao has moved on dramatically in the last couple of years. I'm sorry if that isn't apparent to you Joanna.
> I tested/used DE-sdk (aka intent/elate with Amiga logo on, Partypack-release > + updates) myself last year... And due my own experiences I can well quess
> why these product release delays and switches to other Java brands have
> happened. I'm quite sure you have good idea too, so I don't need to spell it > out. Especially not here
As you got it directly from Amiga it is difficult for me to comment with any certainty as to precisely what it was that you were delivered. Therefore, I will concentrate only on the SDK itself. What I would say is that the development tools on offer at the time were not sufficient for most engineers. We worked very hard in advancing these and reviews from our partners have been very good. Tao also has the excellent CodeWarrior IDE from Metrowerks now. I think that with regard to various aspects of the kit, it was very much an early version SDK. This is recognised but that has more to do with presentational aspects rather than the quality of the software. We have a version underway that will move us on a long way in terms of tools and functionality but I'm not going to let competitors see what we are doing here, they'll have to wait a short while. :)
There have been no product release delays for manufacturers caused by Tao. I would ask you to be careful about making such a statement. Nor have we ever lost any business previously committed to Tao on account of technical or business failures on our part. You should also consider your comments carefully here as well.
Best regards
Francis
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 21 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma (62.131.178.212) on 24-Sep-2002 18:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Christian Kemp):
> Overall I would say that both audiences are very different, not just in
> their beliefs but also in their behaviour.
Yes, but trolling at Slashdot is about equally as common as here, I believe. A major difference however is that Slashdot is being moderated by registered users who "earned" moderation points.
> But I'm fairly sure that a lot of people won't post at sites that require
> authentication
Yes, but i believe it is pretty effective measurement against trolling. Amiga.org has much less trolling and the people who do, are easily identified, as even determined trolls normally don't register different accounts for each new troll posting.
Don't get me wrong, I love ANN, I most certainly wouldn't like it to become an Amiga.org clone, as ANN simply offers different advantages. :)
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 22 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by KenH (194.125.220.36) on 24-Sep-2002 19:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Treke):
Yes, I was about to suggest the same thing. There's nothing more obnoxious than to see a "Company President" involved in a slaging match irrespective as to whether they started it or not. As always though, Francis is the ipitomy(?) of good good manners. At the risk of sounding brown nosed ;) it's great to have your constructive input. I'm equally glad to see that you still rush to Amiga Inc's defence thus quashing the *rumours* that Tao are trying to distance itself from Amiga.
PS I don't expect any comment to this message.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 23 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by The_Editor (217.35.151.124) on 24-Sep-2002 19:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (KenH):
Well you got one !! :)
Yes Francis. Thankyou for your input. To everyone else... Good discussions (What the hells happened ??)
Bed time here in England ....
Night night..sleep tight.. & dont let the bed bugs bite..As we say here in P'boro.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 24 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Argo (66.67.97.55) on 24-Sep-2002 20:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Christian Kemp):
I'd have to say that this is one of the best discussions I've read on ANN not to mention the best in a long while.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 25 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (168.143.113.118) on 24-Sep-2002 20:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (KenH):
>...that you still rush to Amiga Inc's defence...
Well, to be perfectly honest, Francis has categorically declined to comment Amiga and AmigaDE in this thread. He is speaking for his own company and their product. This is of course exactly how it should be, but doesn't really offer much in the way of reassuarances towards Amiga. TAO are moving ahead with or without them, and intent seems to be making great strides on its own.
How AmigaDE fits to anything, really, is quite elusive at this point - no matter how much Bill McEwen would like us to believe otherwise. intent does have substance out there (one of those being 99% of what little of AmigaDE or AACE has been released), AmigaDE frankly does not...
So, is Sendo shipping with AmigaDE or just intent? Or intent and some Entertainmet Pack from Amiga maybe? Any insight, anyone?
I'm extremely pleased with Mr. Charig's comments here today. But even he politely refused to comment on AmigaDE. Until he does otherwise, I'm inclined to guess that AmigaDE isn't that significant to them...
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 26 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc (151.203.121.82) on 24-Sep-2002 21:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (JoannaK):
If anything this shows that Amiga is not the only company to make annoucement that are delayed... hmmm... how many years ago was the dig under Boston Bay supposed to be finished...? Oh, yes, and it took 35 years to finish H3 in Oahu.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 27 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller (65.129.20.18) on 24-Sep-2002 23:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (amigammc):
amigammc typed:
> If anything this shows that Amiga is not the only company
> to make annoucement that are delayed... hmmm... how many
> years ago was the dig under Boston Bay supposed to be
> finished...? Oh, yes, and it took 35 years to finish H3
> in Oahu.
Now that's encouraging! ;)
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 28 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by CodeSmith (4.33.151.136) on 24-Sep-2002 23:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Francis Charig):
Just a quick question regarding the SDK... I basically see Intent competing with Microsoft's .net languages, as they seek to address similar issues (right now the targets are different, but I don't think things will stay that way for ever). One advantage that .net has is an open architecture with free development tools (the Mono initiative by the Ximian crowd). Is there something similar happening with intent? can I expect to be able to pass "-b intent" to gcc any time soon?
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 29 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c (61.214.132.11) on 24-Sep-2002 23:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Mike Bouma):
Mike Bouma wrote:
> Beware Francis, trolls will find (The Moobunny board already has a link) your insightful comments and can quite suddenly turn a good discussion into a childish flamefest with personal attacks.
Now, now, Mike. Someone may think you are implying that Moobunny is the home of trolls. Moobunny is, anyway at the best of times, a place where things can be discussed productively, within the limitations of a board that permits annonymous posts. Mr. Charig has taken part in quite constructive discussions there in the past, in fact, as you may be aware. What draws out the "trolls" are claims that don't stand up to examination; Mr. Charig, by that measure, would seem to be safe both here and at Moobunny.
-- gary_c
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 30 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (168.143.113.115) on 25-Sep-2002 00:04 GMT
They all want the developers. Amino bought the Amiga name to get developers (as well as general brand recognition) - this they've made clear a number of times. Developers create content that is paramount for a new system to succeed.
TAO was probably interested in Amiga to get developers. They are probably lurking around here to keep in touch with potential developers.
Thendic France has openly admitted they are looking for developers at ANN and the Amiga community.
Back in the Gateway days QNX pulled the infamous stunt on Jim Collas days before the Linux announcement. To get developers. Be marketed their stuff to Amiga users. To get developers.
Developers, developers, developers, developers. I wonder if even Redmond teamed up with Amiga to get more developers for their handhelds.
My point? Nothing really. Just an observation. We are interesting (or have been) to a number of people for a number of reasons. Very few of those have got to do with preserving the Amiga legacy or technology, or helping the Amiga community - and most of isn't really even strictly Amiga related.
Whether one bought, coded or teamed up their way into to the Amiga community, their interest seems quite similar. We're not large enough a market to anything more than tiny sales and some word of mouth, but there are some might fine developers here.
It's all about the developers.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 31 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE (64.112.207.57) on 25-Sep-2002 00:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
Problem being, what person who codes for fun, wants to code under the AmigaSDK or VP for a scaled down application to run on a handheld, they are courting the wrong developer crowd for this. Amiga Devs like coding for the amiga system, not these foreign things with an Amiga label on them, the amiga name might get you to try it, but the coding experience keeps you there, and the AmigaSDK environment is quite a poor experience.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 32 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by dammy (24.49.26.246) on 25-Sep-2002 02:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (gary_c):
Come on Gary, Mike will denounce anyone that challenges his fluff/hype/spin articles as trolls. Thank the Great Spirit he was never the Press Secretary for PHX... ;)
Dammy
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 33 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (12.218.68.176) on 25-Sep-2002 02:34 GMT
Insignia Java
the only choice. seeing as how tao sucks.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 34 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (168.143.113.132) on 25-Sep-2002 03:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (MIKE):
>Problem being, what person who codes for fun, wants to code under the
>AmigaSDK or VP for a scaled down application to run on a handheld, they
>are courting the wrong developer crowd for this.
Yeah, well, Mike, you may be onto something there. AmigaDE/intent hasn't actually attracted at least that many tangible developments out of the Amiga community - at least if the AA web store is anything to go by. We've been playing Planet Zed as the flagship product for ages now, considering that Amiga made the TAO SDK available to us almost two and a half years ago.
This may also have something to do with the limitedness of said SDK and subsequent failures to deliver on announcements. If you indeed have a point, that might also explain why MorphOS, despite its obscurity, is attracting some developers - it is an Amiga-like desktop environment after all. However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that PDA coding couldn't be fun, or that people in the Amiga community wouldn't be interested... intent in the eyes of many of us has just been tarnished by all the broken promises from Amiga.
AmigaDE sounded extremely cool in the early 2000. It showed promise. Well, as far as the public is concerned, we're not much better off almost three years later - although much of that promise seems more vague now. However, tracking intent's independent progress certainly gives a little hope to those interested in this technology. TAO is moving ahead. Whether or not Amiga will release anything of major interest to us as far as intent based technology goes, well, we - at least myself - are yet to see it.
None of this, still, really changes the fact that a lot of companies over the years have courted the Amiga community for exactly this reason. They want developers, and certainly most of those who have tried have had some success in luring a one or two... I'm all for this competition, I just wanted to point it out.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 35 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma (62.131.178.212) on 25-Sep-2002 03:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (gary_c):
> Now, now, Mike. Someone may think you are implying that Moobunny is the home
> of trolls.
Moobunny looks to go through some positive changes. It has been the center of most personal attacks, insults and trolling for quite a while. I believe the "exile" of one previously very vocal and prominent participant may have something to do with this positive change.
> Moobunny is, anyway at the best of times, a place where things can be
> discussed productively, within the limitations of a board that permits
> annonymous posts.
Yes I second that, it has been an excelllent board in the past with many insightful people posting there. Maybe these times will return.
> Mr. Charig has taken part in quite constructive discussions there in the
> past, in fact, as you may be aware.
Yes that's why I pointed out the link to him. His informative postings there awoke so many trolls.
> What draws out the "trolls" are claims that don't stand up to examination;
> Mr. Charig, by that measure, would seem to be safe both here and at Moobunny.
Well, some things cannot be examined as projects are still under development and often requires a NDA. That doesn't mean that certain informative postings in the past were inaccurate and IMO shouldn't have been "attacked" as such, even by the more insightful (at i.e. Moobunny).
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 36 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil (195.1.135.34) on 25-Sep-2002 04:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Francis Charig):
">Much too busy to debunk Tao line for line, so just one quick comment
Sorry to hear about the overwork. What do you do? Perhaps you should do my job as it's just like having one big vacation. :)"
Mr Charig, that was just plain evil and you know it :-)
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 37 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by DruggedBunny (195.92.168.171) on 25-Sep-2002 05:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
> Insignia Java
> the only choice. seeing as how tao sucks.
Sigh... there's always one.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 38 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous (203.166.96.237) on 25-Sep-2002 06:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
One troll detected :)
The worst nightmare is when Insignia ported their Java VM to Thendic Eclipsis PDA project or even AmigaOS, ahead of AmigaDE/Intent!
Perhaps Insignia have advantage in certain benchmark (Caffeine Mark) because of their HOTSPOT/JIT technology, but there are several other Java Benchmarks . Perhaps TAO Group can publish the REAL number / result of various benchmark, and a proof that their JVM is 10X faster than Insignia.
As an example Apple G4 vs X86. Steve Jobs claimed that Apple G4 is faster than X86 on Photoshop benchmark, because the software is optimized for G4. On the other hand, Fortran Benchmark from C'T Magazine (German) shows that X86 have better floating point performance than G4. On this Fortran Benchmark (G77, v.3 March 2002) they did not use the Altivec unit, because Altivec support is only available on later version (G77 v.3.2).
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 39 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Francis Charig (63.51.254.228) on 25-Sep-2002 15:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (anonymous):
Hello from Korea. I've just eaten a hot dog.
The last message on benchmarking is incorrect. Tao has superior caffiene benchmarks. But this is not especially relevant. Most work takes place in the libraries and this is where Tao displays extreme levels of efficiency. Indeed in many embedded products, the code resides in native so there is no execution by the VM anyway. This obsession with the VM is really rather extraordinary and displays a misunderstanding of how Java applications work. The real drive from us has been to make sure that we can get applications working very effectively on our platform, so that the genuine user experience meets their expectations. It is quite simple really. This is the only way to meet our social and commercial objectives.
If people are wondering if Tao was attracted to the Amiga community because of the developers, the answer is obviously 'yes'. We have a strong connection and therefore respect the capabilities of the community. I think that Tao having a healthy respect for the engineers and wanting to work with them as a result is a perfectly justifiable position to take. I've made that clear from the beginning.
With regard to the individual who was commenting on intent competing with Microsoft, I certainly don't think so. There are some fundamental differences in terms of objectives and technology and we are co-operating with them wherever relevant. We support intent on ce.net by the way for various clients although it is not generically available yet. We are sure ce.net will be extremely successful and I am not going to participate any further on Microsoft debates as that is a foolish and self-defeating approach.
The criticisms of the Amiga SDK were answered by me yesterday I hope. Nor was I defensive. Are we going to produce an environment that allows people to develop applications for free? That is consistent with the ADK release some time back.
I hope this helps.
Best regards
Francis
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 40 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by News Hound (63.51.254.228) on 25-Sep-2002 15:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Francis Charig):
http://www.newscenter.philips.com/InformationCenter/NewsCenter/FList.asp?lNodeId=602
September 25, 2002
Philips Announces Key Partnerships for the Pronto++ Software & Systems Platform to Create Innovative Multimedia Applications
Access to Innovative Technologies Through Pronto++ Partners Will Allow OEMs to Introduce Multimedia Products Significantly Faster at a Lower Cost and Reduced Investment.
SUNNYVALE, Calif., September 25, 2002—Royal Philips Electronics (AEX: PHI, NYSE: PHG) today announced several technology partnerships designed to further enhance the capability and flexibility of its digital multimedia reference platform, called Pronto++ Software & Systems. Partnering with these companies will enable Philips and its original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) to deliver enhanced multimedia-based applications such as digital audio, video, pictures, and games, further enriching the digital lifestyle of consumers.
The Pronto++ Software & Systems platform consists of reference hardware, a complete stack of enabling software and multimedia services geared toward consumer simplicity and ease-of-use. The platform is powered by Intel® XScale™ technology based PXA250 processors—part of the Intel® Personal Internet Client Architecture—to help address many of the performance needs of today’s wireless, handheld and consumer electronic market segments.
“By working with each of these technology partners in their respective fields, Philips is able to offer OEMs a powerful development environment for creating new products faster,” said Ivo Lurvink, CEO, Philips Components’ Emerging Electronic Solution group. “iMerge, Tao, and Intrinsyc bring unique and substantial knowledge, as well as highly innovative functionality to the Pronto++ platform—ultimately allowing OEMs to create next-generation multimedia devices at a lower cost and reduced upfront investment.”
Partnered technologies for the Pronto++ Software & Systems platform announced today:
XiVA™ Media, from Imerge Ltd
This navigation and control application provides innovative music access. Consumers browse CD collections and view cover art, as well as track listings, artist information and band discography as music plays. XiVA™ also allows consumers to discover new music associated with their musical preferences and favorite artists, and enables new CD purchase.
Intent®, from Tao Group Limited
The intent product will be used to deliver gaming capability through its combination of rich multimedia and Java capabilities. Intent has advanced graphics, audio and video features, and the technology has been ratified as the standard of the Open Contents Platform Association in Japan. Its technology includes various Java specifications, including J2ME and MIDP, as well as PersonalJava.
Intrinsyc
Intrinsyc will assist Philips in creating a Pronto++ Development Kit for OEM customers and partners, and will provide engineering support and application development tools for the entire platform. Intrinsyc has provided and will continue to provide Philips with Intrinsyc’s Cerf™PDA hardware, Turbo Boot™ and Cerf™Works software to enable rapid time to market for OEM customers.
The Philips Pronto++ Software & Systems platform builds on the heritage of the company’s acclaimed Pronto product line of advanced control technologies for complex and diverse multimedia entertainment systems.
Philips plans to unveil the first product using this unique platform at the CEDIA Expo, which will be held at the Minneapolis Convention Center from September 25-29. Editors interested in learning more about this new product or the company’s entire suite of advanced remote control technology, or seeing a demonstration, may contact Stacey Voorhees at MCA via phone: +650/968-8900, ext. 108; email: svoorhees@mcapr.com; or visit Philips’ booth #109.
About Imerge Ltd
Based in Cambridge, UK, Imerge develops next generation home media appliance and home networking technology, XiVA™, for licensing and finished-product sales. Imerge has forged a leading position in the worldwide media appliance and home networking technology licensing market through their world-beating XiVA™ technology, XiVA™-Link open standard control protocol and fully customisable XiVA™-Net Internet Portal. XiVA™ powers the next generation of hard disk based media appliances and blends hard disk technology, advanced software design and embedded Internet connectivity, to provide exciting new features and profitable new revenue streams. Audio, video, text, graphics and all forms of streaming media are brought to life through a wealth of interactive user interface options. XiVA™ software and hardware platforms create a range of exciting new home entertainment solutions.
About Tao Group Ltd.
Tao has developed intent®, a binary portable, language independent, high performance, multimedia platform that is now used by many of the world’s leading OEMs in their client products for home and mobile networks. The technology allows these companies to have a single strategy across all of their platforms, irrespective of operating system, hardware and function. intent is now being used in products including smart mobile appliances and digital television. intent is also a core piece of technology in the Open Contents Platform Association (OCPA), launched successfully in Japan during 2001. Tao’s range of Java™ products have been designed from their inception to combine the Java language with Tao's multimedia to run real-world content many times faster than any alternative. The Company was founded in 1992, has offices in the United States, Europe and Japan and counts Mitsubishi, Sony, Motorola, NEC, Sharp and Bowman Capital Partners amongst its investors. Tao has a growing and high value, global patent portfolio and is the recipient of multiple industry awards, both for its technologies and for the rate of corporate growth.
About Intrinsyc
Recognized by Deloitte & Touche as one of the fastest growing technology companies in North America, Intrinsyc provides unique software and hardware solutions that enable companies to cost-effectively create, network and manage a wide range of consumer and industrial devices. By leveraging Intrinsyc’s products and expertise, customers make better decisions, improve productivity, and reduce time-to-market. Intrinsyc is a rapidly expanding, public company with global customers such as General Electric, Ford, Microsoft, Intel, Siemens, and BEA Systems. To find out more about Intrinsyc, visit www.intrinsyc.com.
About Royal Philips Electronics:
Royal Philips Electronics of the Netherlands is one of the world’s biggest electronics companies and Europe’s largest, with sales of $28.8 billion (EUR 32.3 billion) in 2001. It is a global leader in color television sets, lighting, electric shavers, medical diagnostic imaging and patient monitoring, and one-chip TV products. Its 184,000 employees in more than 60 countries are active in the areas of lighting, consumer electronics, domestic appliances, components, semiconductors, and medical systems. Philips is quoted on the NYSE (symbol: PHG), London, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and other stock exchanges. News from Philips is located at www.philips.com/newscenter/usa/
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 41 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by KenH (194.125.220.155) on 25-Sep-2002 18:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Anonymous):
>I'm extremely pleased with Mr. Charig's comments here today. But even he politely refused to comment on AmigaDE. Until he does otherwise, I'm inclined to guess that AmigaDE isn't that significant to them...
Dear Anon...
The fact that Francis is even bothering to comment on an Amiga specific board indicates this. Why would he bother if the partnership was severed? His declining to answer anything Amiga related is out of respect to Bill McEwen as it is his domain. You are correct when you say you are guessing though.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 42 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by CodeSmith (131.107.3.86) on 25-Sep-2002 18:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Francis Charig):
Mr Charig,
I think I'm reading, from your tone, that you believe I'm being unfairly critical of Intent. If I sounded like that, I did not mean to. My first comment was that both .net and intent target a virtual processor, and given Microsoft's past history, sooner or later they will consider Tao a competitor. My other comment was that, should this happen, they will be able to claim 'moral superiority' because someone else wrote open-source developer tools for their platform. I was merely curious to know if you had similar open tool support (or plans for it), as I find MS quite hypocritical in their stance on open source, and I'd think it would be very unfair to Tao if they managed to lure developers away from Tao's 'camp' based on this.
Sendo Adopts Insignia Java, Pushes Back Smart Phone Again : Comment 43 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (203.166.96.235) on 25-Sep-2002 23:26 GMT
>FastRam announcement
FastRam is an UK game software vendor that release MIDLETS JVM benchmark program. This program shows that TAO Intent JVM is faster than Insignia Jeode JVM.
http://www.wirelessdevnet.com/news/2002/169/news4.html
http://www.heffalumps.org/hosted/fastram/download.html
Anonymous, there are 43 items in your selection
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