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[News] Pianeta Amiga Reportage in EnglishANN.lu
Posted on 30-Sep-2002 13:18 GMT by Elwood38 comments
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English translation of this reportage.... In case you're interested by the reportage on Pianeta Amiga found and you don't read Italian, here is the translation in English:
Pianeta Amiga in English
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 1 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 30-Sep-2002 11:20 GMT
Humm, "found on the Quantum Leap website" !
Sorry, I did it in office and I should go back to work ! :-)
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 2 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 30-Sep-2002 12:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Elwood):
It would have been nice and polite on your part to ask for permission to translate a post the article.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 3 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Sep-2002 13:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (amigammc):
>ask for permission to translate a post the article.
Christ, don't you think thats a bit over polite?
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 4 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Amygale on 30-Sep-2002 13:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (amigammc):
> It would have been nice and polite on your part to ask for permission to
> translate a post the article.
And you, it would have been nice and polite on your part to ask for permission to post stupid comments on this forum !
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 5 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Sep-2002 13:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Amygale):
> > It would have been nice and polite on your part to ask for permission to
> > translate a post the article.
>
> And you, it would have been nice and polite on your part to ask for permission
> to post stupid comments on this forum !
Considering that he is one of the guys who work at quantunleap, I'd suggest you to take back your insults. He has all the right to ask people to at least let him, and specially the report's author, know about such translation.
Try to look at what's written at the bottom of all pages on that site. Do you see that phrase starting with "Copyright..."? Do you?
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 6 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 30-Sep-2002 14:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (amigammc):
AmigaMMC, what is your problem? They guy was kind enough to do a quick translation (so we didn't have to screw around with the fish), and your bashing him? What the hell happened to our old community? There would have been a flood of thanks for him doing a quick translation for us. Are the rest of your fellow Faithful Followers Of The Name Cult as anal as you are?
Dammy
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 7 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 30-Sep-2002 14:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Fabio Alemagna):
Let's explain it simple:
It should be polite to remove the outdated english part of your web site or
to update it, don't you think ?
I do work for the Amiga community, I think we follow the same goal. I don't understand why you criticize me here. Next time translate it yourself ! ;-)
BTW, you do a great job in the QL web site (in Italian that is). Thanks to you and other people comments here.
Have a nice day.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 8 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Sep-2002 14:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Elwood):
> Let's explain it simple:
> It should be polite to remove the outdated english part of your web site or
> to update it, don't you think ?
The English part cannot be updated, as Luca has already explained. That said, I don't understand how can it be related to "politeness".
Whoever made that announcement on ANN wasn't in any way related to the Quantum Leap staff, and that reportage wasn't meant to be spread all around the world, it was only for the Italian community.
> I do work for the Amiga community, I think we follow the same goal. I don't
> understand why you criticize me here. Next time translate it yourself ! ;-)
You got it all wrong. All that Luca asked you was to comply with the Author's requirement. We appreciate you translated it, but you could have done it as well by coping with the aforementioned requirements. If there's a copyright, it oughta be respected.
BTW, you do a great job in the QL web site (in Italian that is). Thanks to you and other people comments here.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 9 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Sep-2002 14:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Fabio Alemagna):
>The English part cannot be updated, as Luca has already explained.
I know. As a teacher of mine used to say:
There are no problems, only solutions... :-)
>That said, I don't understand how can it be related to "politeness".
Amigans deserve it. It's not exactly politeness, you're right.
>that reportage wasn't meant to be spread all around the world,
> it was only for the Italian community.
So I don't understand why not to release informations to the whole Amiga community. Did Pianeta Amiga was for Italian people only ? :-) (No offence, ok ?)
>All that Luca asked you was to comply with the Author's requirement.
Didn't see any copyright notice. Sorry. I just read this OS4 demo report, not the rest of the page...
> We appreciate you translated it
At least... :-)
I dream of a world where people won't fight for all reasons they can find.
There are too many reasons, you know...
bye
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 10 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 30-Sep-2002 14:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
Oops, it was a post of mine. Sorry, for the Anonymous name...
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 11 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 30-Sep-2002 15:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Amygale):
Obviously you're the one posting stupid comments, I'm the acting director of Quantum Leap and whatever is published on that website is copyrighted and not only requires but DESERVES at least a permission request to be published elsewhere. We do translate a lot of articles for QL and we alwats ask for permission first. Sometimes we don't get that permission and in that case we don't translate.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 12 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 30-Sep-2002 15:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (dammy):
I'm not bashing him, but I'm tired of this attitude that "everybody owns everything and we can do whatever we want." Copyrights are not a joke, we own that article and we should be the ones to decide what gets translated and where it goes. Seeing interest we might as well decided to translate it ourselves.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 13 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by windtalkers@netzero.net on 30-Sep-2002 15:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Elwood):
>Let's explain it simple:
>It should be polite to remove the outdated english part of your web site or
>to update it, don't you think ?
That's a plainly stupid comment, Elwood, and you know it, for 3 reasons:
1) You can ignore the parts of the site that are not of your interest
2) Not really any of your business what we update it and what we don't; see #1
3) As I explained earlier we cannot do modifications to the site, and you read that so you could have avoided the immature comment above
>I do work for the Amiga community,
So do we
>I think we follow the same goal.
Sometimes it's hard to see that
>I don't understand why you criticize me here.
Because it's a copyright violation. I know that some companies I'm not going to name have taught people that copyrights are just for a laugh but that doesn't mean I have to accept it
>Next time translate it yourself ! ;-)
We will, as we always do.
I don't understand the reason for this attitude. All I said was: "It would have been nice and polite on your part to ask for permission to translate a post the article." - All you should have said was: "I'm sorry, I meant no harm, next time I will" and it would have ended there. Who was saying not too long ago in another thread that people never say sorry even when they know they're at fault...?
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 14 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 30-Sep-2002 16:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
> >That said, I don't understand how can it be related to "politeness".
>
> Amigans deserve it. It's not exactly politeness, you're right.
Amigans deserve what, exactly? And why? Do they deserve that the English part of a news site led by only volunteers who do it for free gets updated? And why, if I may ask?
Strange conception of "Amigans' rights" you have.
> >that reportage wasn't meant to be spread all around the world,
> > it was only for the Italian community.
>
> So I don't understand why not to release informations to the whole Amiga
> community. Did Pianeta Amiga was for Italian people only ? :-) (No offence,
> ok ?)
Pianeta Amiga indeed mainly targetted Italian people, yes, but that doesn't imply anything. There's no other reason for that reportage to target only Italian people than the fact that QL is mainly an Italian site, for Italian people, and translating the reportage to English would have required more work, and it wouldn't have been able to be put on the English section of the site anyway.
> >All that Luca asked you was to comply with the Author's requirement.
>
> Didn't see any copyright notice. Sorry. I just read this OS4 demo report, not
> the rest of the page...
Excuses are welcome and accepted, of course, but we do hope that next time, if you wish to help us and the Amiga community, you will take rules into a higher consideration.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 15 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 30-Sep-2002 16:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (amigammc):
What about this...? A politician is holding a speech that is being broadcasted on several TV stations. Some of them display it verbatim, others have somebody translate the speech to another language and combine this with the existing images. Nobody will ask the politician to approve the copy, and everybody who's listening to the translated version knows fully well that what they are getting is some outsider's interpretation/translation. There is no doubt about where the speech originated, and everybody knows that they just need to switch channels to get the original.
Now, aren't there parallels to news items or reports ran on a website?
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 16 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 30-Sep-2002 17:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Christian Kemp):
Sorry Christian, but your comparison make absolutely no sense. First of all the speach of a politician is nor protected by copyright, second, if you take and article written by the New York Times and translated it verbatim and publish it elsewhere you can bet they're gonna sue your ass. Third, you can compare the speech of the politician with what was shown at the show, not with an article written about the show which is a copyrighted item. Fourth, a politician *WANTS* his speech to be broadcast as much as possible, I doubt the New York Time, or whoever, wants their article translated and/or published without permission. Fifth, a speech is not protected by copyright, an article (which is not a transcription, if you know the difference) is.
I'm really saddened to see that people take no interest in copyrights and think that they can do whatever they want with other people's properties. Even more saddened that this comes from you.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 17 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 30-Sep-2002 17:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (amigammc):
I wasn't necessarily taking sides, just trying to made an analogy. Seems you proved me wrong.
I know I would object if somebody copied any part of my site without consulting me first. However, I wouldn't be overly concerned if somebody just took something I wrote and translated it to a language I don't speak so that people who wouldn't otherwise be able to read it can enjoy it as well. And this is what it boils down to. To me, this is only a copyright violation on paper. In reality, it is a service from one person to a group of others within a community. Nobody makes any financial benefit, or otherwise profits from the work. It only serves to spread the word about your site and perhaps draw more people to it.
As for the aforementioned problems with updating the English part... why not stop using this URL and rebuild the site where you can actively maintain it? There's only one thing worse than a dead site, that is a site with "news" that are out of date by several months or years and no longer serve any interest except confuse a casual visitor.
All that being said, I'm out of this thread. I shouldn't get into these discussions with the little spare time I have these days...
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 18 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by q on 30-Sep-2002 19:09 GMT
Hmm.. I was just wondering, that all these new OS4.0 components run in fact on 68k and OS3.9... any chance we non-PPC users will get these updates for our 3.9?
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 19 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Sep-2002 20:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (amigammc):
I agree with amigammc about this principle (the right to create derived works such as a translation is given to the author for a reason - an insignificant seeming error during translation may change the meaning and put words into his mouth, and that's plain wrong)
However the speech thing is complicated, most prepared speeches aren't memorised they are written down, and even when a speech is spontaneous it is often recorded rather than given to a live audience. In either case the speech is fixed in a medium and copyright applies. "I have a dream..." is only in the public domain today because American law for a long time lagged behind the common protection afforded to the ordinary man.
The site access thing OTOH is a complete joke. You own a house but can't find keys to the door so you just live in the garden? Give me a break. It's the work of a few moments for the owner of the server to let you back in, not six months or a year.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 20 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 30-Sep-2002 21:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
I think the translator should have asked. I have translated some articles from German websites and I will always:
1) offer the translation to the website publisher so he or she can use it
2) ask that I be allowed to put it on my website (or wherever)
If the website publisher said "no" then I would say "well, you can't have my translation then." But people usually say "yes" if you are nice about it.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 21 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 01-Oct-2002 00:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Christian Kemp):
>I wouldn't be overly concerned if somebody just took something I wrote and
>translated it to a language I don't speak so that people who wouldn't
>otherwise be able to read it
I wasn't concerned either over measure, otherwise I would have asked you to remove the post (I had every right to), instead I just said that it would have been nice if we were asked permission before posting the translation. I surely would have never denied that, as a matter of fact I would have probably offered Elwood to have it posted on Quantum Leap and have his name in the credits. Just thta, I only asked for politeness and respect for other's work, I wasn't the one who blew it out of proportion. I hope we learned something here and this thread wasn't a waste of time.
>As for the aforementioned problems with updating the English part... why not
>stop using this URL and rebuild the site where you can actively maintain it?
My friend (I can call you friend, right, after all these years? ;-)), you really believe we didn't think of that? Unfortunately there's something called "Italian law" which came in act last year and I have no shame in defining it fascist. This new law forbids anyone from having a news website/magazine/etc. without being a member of the press (and it's not like one just apply for a membership). As long as we stay under the domain of programmazione.it we are protected because they are a professional news site, if we move out... and it doesn't matter if we host the site in servers abroad. I'm the only one who lives outside of Italy, the rest of the team resides in Italy and the law covers this, too. I know, it's sad, to me this is a hit to the freedom of speech. The only thing we can do is hoping the beaurocratic nightmare at prog.it ends soon.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 22 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 01-Oct-2002 00:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
>It's the work of a few moments for the owner of the server to let
>you back in, not six months or a year.
I wish it was that simple, unfortunately there's much more behind it and this is really not the right place to discuss it. Let's say we are just guests there and technical difficulties, incompetence and hyerarchy makes it a nightmare
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 23 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 01-Oct-2002 00:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Daniel Miller):
Thank you, Daniel. We do the same on QL.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 24 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 01-Oct-2002 02:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (amigammc):
Since I didn't bother going to your site (article is in Italian, I do not know Italian, so basically it would be useless for me to even visit there), is it a restricted for paid customers? If it is, I withdrawl my comment an apologize.
If it's not, IMO, your doing a grave diservice to not only your site, but to those who are associated by reading it since I would wager most people have labeled it's authors as Anal Retentive and or Xenophobic.
Dammy
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 25 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil on 01-Oct-2002 05:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (amigammc):
Wow. Now THAT makes me feel good for living in a free country.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 26 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 01-Oct-2002 05:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (q):
>I was just wondering, that all these new OS4.0 components run in fact on 68k
>and OS3.9... any chance we non-PPC users will get these updates for our 3.9?
No, you wouldn't want a slow Amiga system. Only PPC can be used to reach the speed of a modern system. Please upgrade to the A1...
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 27 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Errm... on 01-Oct-2002 06:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Elwood):
"Only PPC can be used to reach the speed of a modern system."
One word: Amithlon!
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 28 of 38ANN.lu
Message removed by CK for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: Trolling
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 29 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Freddy on 01-Oct-2002 07:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (amigammc):
amigammc, while Elwood for one reason or another neglected to ask for permission to translate the article, you could have simply sent him an e-mail explaining the reasons to do so in the future. Your post here on ann.lu makes it seem that you were upset by Elwood's action which I doubt was deliberate. Anyway, there's no need to cause such a stir on ann for something like this...
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 30 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Amygale on 01-Oct-2002 10:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (amigammc):
All that for only a translation (of a very little text) ?? a translation to inform simply other Amigans in a very little little little community...
Very ridiculous.
And please, next time : don't promote the Pianeta Amiga Show on english News Web sites & forums (like ANN) if this show is only for italians...
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 31 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Oct-2002 11:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Fabio Alemagna):
Bah, he should get over himself and his pissy article. How uptight can you be??
Oh NO!!!!! Someone translated my article into another language!!!!! SAHIT!!! The bastard...
Oh, fucking get over yourselfs. It's some write up of an Amiga show, not the Illiad, no thats that would be under sopyright anymore, whatever. Blah
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 32 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Oct-2002 11:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (amigammc):
>but DESERVES
Bullshit. If anything, such an attitude derserrves to be ignored along with the article. This would be the same as me caring what happend to this post which i put NO THOUGHT (but a lot of beer) into!!! But I wrote it, its my fucking copyright.... you really need to get over it. Some fucking legend done EVERYONE a favour and translated it into English and all you can do it bitch about copyright??? Tahts the Amiga community for you. Don't do anyone a favour.
sheesh.... i can't get over it... copyright on some peice of shit write up of an amiga show.... no.... god... it's shiiittttttttt
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 33 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 01-Oct-2002 11:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Fabio Alemagna):
>And why? Do they deserve that the English part of a news site led by only >volunteers who do it for free gets updated?
How ever said that? What we deserve it not to have people down us when some kind soul takes the work upon himself.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 34 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 01-Oct-2002 13:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
> How ever said that?
You meant "who" there? Anyway, the guy I was answering to said that, namely Elwood.
> What we deserve it not to have people down us when some kind soul takes the work
> upon himself.
You, you personally, deserve only a good kick in the ass, for what concerns me. Nothing more, nothing less.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 35 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Nomad of Norad on 02-Oct-2002 18:27 GMT
You know... you guys seem to be forgetting about fair use. Fair use states that it's perfectly legal to copy a subset of a work (say, an article out of a newspaper, a few paragraphs from a book) without having to ask for permission. Fair use is supported and protected by international copyright laws.
So, someone else's analogy of taking an individual article out of the New York Times and then translating it into... say, Italian would be perfectly okay to do, at least as long as he doesn't then charge money for it. I'm not even sure if that last restriction applies.
So, the Quantum Leap guys come out and say "See the copyright notice on the bottom of our main page? That means you can't copy it or translate it without our permission!" Sorry, I don't think that quite washes. First off, according to international copyright law, the very act of creating a work places a copyright on it, which means every document on every webserver everywhere on the planet is effectively copyrighted, unless it's of a document that is so old that it's long since passed into the public domain (say, an online collection of Shakespear's plays), and yet you don't see many websites claiming that you have to ask permission before offering exerpts from it or translating a page into Swahili. Alot of them even have copyright notices printed on their pages. But "copyright 2002" != "I have 100% say in what people do with this," instead it simply"I wrote this, it has my name on it, nobody else can claim that they wrote it."
Besides, if you fully believe you can and should prevent people from translating the page without asking you first... go to the people that run www.Babblefish.com and ask them to set a flag that says "Don't translate this site." My guess is they'll probably laugh you right on out of the building. :-)
NoN
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 36 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 02-Oct-2002 22:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Nomad of Norad):
Another wrong analogy. Sigh!
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 37 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by amigammc on 02-Oct-2002 22:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Freddy):
>Your post here on ann.lu makes it seem that you were upset
>by Elwood's action which I doubt was deliberate.
Of course I was upset, but I'm not the one who caused the stir, nor requested to have the translation removed. I just said that it would have been respectful to ask first. But of course all the drama queens of ANN (not referring to you or your coment)have to find any excuse to start a flame war. Reread my first post, I just said that it would have been polite to ask permission.
>Anyway, there's no need to cause such a stir on ann
>for something like this...
Sorry, you're telling the wrong person
What I saw here though is that people in this (I'm gonna say it now) Fuc*ed up community think they own everything and they have the right to take possession of other people's work. And I'm not referring to Elwood either, he did it on bona fide wanting to do a favor to those who couldn't read the original text. I'm throwing a stone at all those morons who raised hell to protect the idea that someone's work is public domain.
Pianeta Amiga Reportage in English : Comment 38 of 38ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Oct-2002 03:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Nomad of Norad):
Fair use doesn't include anything of the sort. An excerpt from a book photocopied for school is fair use, a frame from a movie used in a review is fair use. A parody of a Madonna song sung by muppets is fair use. Things with overwhelming social value are protected, in balance with protection of the creator's moral rights and the financial benefits.
Do you really think there was overwhelming social value in translating this article? Would you go before a judge and say you think it would be immoral and unjust to require someone to ask permission before putting words into another man's mouth ?
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